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As a more general advice - person in position of power should not joke about causing harm. Whether is is manager joking about firing employee, stronger person j

As a more general advice - person in position of power should not joke about causing harm. Whether is is manager joking about firing employee, stronger person joking about beating up weaker one or parent joking about throwing child out of house when they misbehave. This kind of humor works only when it is coming from weaker position and even then only in certain situations.

jagtesh 5y ago
Good general advice. Had a manager who would say to folks “you won’t get fired for xyz”. Even the mention of firing made the environment unpleasant. Now I fully appreciate how words can have a profound effect on morale.
- dannyw 5y ago
  The inverse "we will support you for xyz" works just as well anyway.
- anon7725 5y ago
  There is a person in my management chain who makes occasional references to being fired along the lines of “If someone did X they’d be instantly let go.” I find that it makes for an uncomfortable work environment - I’ve never heard managers speak this way before. To be clear, I am not speaking about some bright-line issue that comes up in required training. It makes me think that they are a weak “rules lawyer” type, who are more interested in always having plausible deniability/coverage of their own ass than actually leading their team.
  - gumby 5y ago
    As with everything there is a slight exception (doesn’t look like you were talking about this case): if someone jokes about doing something forbidden it’s proper for a manager to say “sorry, but I don’t like even joking about that because violating safety protocol/falsifying govt form X/paying a bribe even where it’s the country’s culture is grounds for immediate termination. Let’s just move on”. Sometimes we joke about things to reduce fear, but sometimes joking about things normalizes them.
  - myohmy 5y ago
    I do that sometimes. I'm being 100% serious. I get bureaucrats talk about building slow and expensive process controls to prevent someone from doing something stupid. I counter with the fact that we don't need the controls because my employees know I will simply fire the person if they do it.
freen 5y ago
Now, think about your position of power in a historical context. Are you a member of a group that has traditionally held power? A gender that has traditionally been considered “superior” or “acceptable”? Same thing applies there too.
- anoonmoose 5y ago
  GP getting upvoted because managers are in the minority on HN P getting downvoted because members of historically powerful groups and genders are not in the minority on HN
  - Veen 5y ago
    Or because no one likes being lectured by pompous self-righteous strangers on a topic barely relevant to the article. Especially when it's something we've all heard a thousand times before presented as if it were a gift of great wisdom.
    - mrosett 5y ago
      This comment is gold. I genuinely chuckled as I read it.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I agree in this particular case but the exception proves the rule. Shoving vaguely applicable yet mostly useless proverbial advice into internet comment sections is a great low effort way to be rewarded with virtue points. There are a few examples elsewhere in the comments of such. Had he been more tactful about how he worded the topic it likely would have been better received.
  - seneca 5y ago
    In my case, it's because a managerial position is an ephemeral role you voluntarily step into. Accepting a managerial role means accepting certain rights and constraints, including things like the topic of the article. Being told you have similar constraints simply because you were born with a certain configuration is both arguable, completely lacking any nuance or insight, and mostly original-sin tinged dogma.
dfxm12 5y ago
The weird thing is, in my experience, a lot of managers don't see themselves as having power, or at least, aren't willing to use that power for others. Bad managers who don't go to bat for their reports, who joke about firing you while forgetting they can actually fire you, not helping advance your career in any way, etc.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  I think that's the key dissonance here - that from the perspective of employees (which it looks like you're channeling here) managers have the power to fire people so it sounds like a real threat, but from the perspective of managers it's just making a fictional exaggeration because they know that they don't really have the power to unilaterally fire anyone without an excessive reason - in most organizations, unless they're the founder-CEO of a small company. They have been delegated some day-to-day administrative power from the corporation and HR with respect to their team, they have a voice and vote for hiring and firing, but they don't often have a veto vote for saying who is or isn't going to be in the team they have been assigned to manage. Not helping you advance or making your life difficult, yes, managers can do that, but in general in all the organizations I've seen (in IT corps and finance; perhaps industries like e.g. fast food are very different) if a manager would really want to get rid of someone, it would take them months of "political effort" to try and do so (and they might still fail), because they really did not have that power to just fire someone.
  - scottLobster 5y ago
    Perhaps, but it's also worth noting the difference in visibility between employee/manager. For all the employee knows that "political effort" has been ongoing for the last few months and they were non the wiser. I work at a large company with separate engineering/management tracks, and gaining any visibility into the business from the engineering floor is like pulling teeth. For example, I've been blindsided by reassignments that are technically voluntary but I know if I make a stink about them it'll hurt my reputation. I certainly wasn't consulted about the problem my re-assignment addresses until it was happening. That lack of context creates an environment where employees have to read the tea leaves from the drips and drabs of information they can get, a joke about firing would definitely prompt me to update my resume, just in case.
kodah 5y ago
"Causing harm" is the kind of vaguery that makes people walk on eggshells when taken seriously enough. I agree there are things that managers shouldn't joke about, but I do think it's on us to be specific about topics and scenarios.
wefarrell 5y ago
"Always punch up, never punch down"
- jnwatson 5y ago
  Exactly. The article’s advice applies just as well if you’re a senior IC talking to a junior IC.
- ponow 5y ago
  What about, "do no wrong"?
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    (Good) Jokes that punch up are funny, not immoral. It's really hard to make a good joke that punches down; seeing it pulled off makes me really respect (and kinda dislike) a comedian (and I've never seen a non-professional manage it).
    - syspec 5y ago
      (got it)
- philwelch 5y ago
  The problem with this is that everyone sees themselves as the underdog.
mrtksn 5y ago
Yep, position of power implies relationship structure that brings completely different social dynamics than the equals. That’s also the exact same dynamics that makes something abuse or not abuse. The recent “Me too” movement was essentially based on it. I’m sure there could be another kind of “Me too” movement that’s not sexual but business or career centric.
chokma 5y ago
In school, we had a teacher who as famous for making jokes at the expense of others. One time during chemistry in front of the class he said to his most-liked pupil: "We have enough poison here to kill everyone in class. Well, except me and you, of course." And that was the time the class decided to go to our head teacher and tell her that his jokes were not funny at all and she reported back that our chemistry teacher was surprised about how someone did not appreciate his brand of humor.
noneeeed 5y ago
Totally agree with you on that. However a slight variation about joking with kids that I find does work surprisingly well is the totally exhagerrated consequences. But it really has to be totally over the top and utterly unbelievable, the sillier the better. It simultaneously breaks the impending mood of conflict, makes them laugh, while somehow actually motivating them to do what they are resisting. We all know it won't be the real consequence of them (not) doing whatever, but it still seems to work. It's weird. Doesn't always work of course (nothing with kids ever does), but a variation on the theme has frequently helped.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  I've often done that with my own kids, once tried it with a child at my work - trying to none with them - kid took it seriously and screamed the place down. No young kids get sarcasm, but lots don't get exposed to silliness and so will believe even ludicrous stuff from parents. That child taught me well!
  - Volundr 5y ago
    I think people often underestimate the role trust plays in humor (with both kids and adults). This explains why some pretty awful jokes can be funny when coming from someone you know intimately but not from a stranger, and why your kids find it funny when you suggest xyz as a consequence, but someone else's is horrified.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      Yes, agreed. In this case I think it was exacerbated by developmental stage too.
namelosw 5y ago
I grew up in a region parents would randomly say something like the following to their kids on daily basis and I hated it: - You’re eating too much and we can’t afford you, we will giving you to human traffickers for free. - If you go out and play before finishing the homework you will be eaten by wolves. - If you don’t obey the cops are going to arrest and execute you. - Stay away from dogs or it will bite your pp off. - Oh we thought you were useful when we found you in the trash can, it turns out we’re wrong and we’re going to throw you back. And there are hundreds of variants or so. They must have an anti-fortune cookie database kept under their pillow… So pathetic.
- pm90 5y ago
  “If your grades don’t improve you are off to Military School.” Used to terrify me when I was really young because I believed everything they said. As I grew up and the threat never materialized I shrugged it off. Cultures that think this behavior is ok are the fucking worst. I would never ever do that if I had a child.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    It's okay! Anyone with 20 or so years' experience with the culture's “humour” will understand that it's clearly a joke. Duh. Stupid 10 year old for believing it. I found the tone of voice most significant in this kind of situation. When it was “smiley, jokey”, I would get it was a joke – but even mock seriousness or, worse, exasperated parent, was completely credible.
- worker767424 5y ago
  Guess now you get to return the favor and spend a decade talking about sending them to the nursing home.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Jesus, where did you grow up. Where I grew up we would make the first part of the joke but not the second. You are going to jail. Not "you are going to get shot in the head". Dogs biting dicks off?! America is too puritanical for that kind of imagery to fly.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gowld 5y ago
Or someone who routinely orders the killing of people, often killing innocents people, joking about murdering innocent people. https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+drone+jonas https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+drone+jonas

jagtesh 5y ago

Good general advice. Had a manager who would say to folks “you won’t get fired for xyz”. Even the mention of firing made the environment unpleasant. Now I fully appreciate how words can have a profound effect on morale.

dannyw 5y ago
The inverse "we will support you for xyz" works just as well anyway.
anon7725 5y ago
There is a person in my management chain who makes occasional references to being fired along the lines of “If someone did X they’d be instantly let go.” I find that it makes for an uncomfortable work environment - I’ve never heard managers speak this way before. To be clear, I am not speaking about some bright-line issue that comes up in required training. It makes me think that they are a weak “rules lawyer” type, who are more interested in always having plausible deniability/coverage of their own ass than actually leading their team.
- gumby 5y ago
  As with everything there is a slight exception (doesn’t look like you were talking about this case): if someone jokes about doing something forbidden it’s proper for a manager to say “sorry, but I don’t like even joking about that because violating safety protocol/falsifying govt form X/paying a bribe even where it’s the country’s culture is grounds for immediate termination. Let’s just move on”. Sometimes we joke about things to reduce fear, but sometimes joking about things normalizes them.
- myohmy 5y ago
  I do that sometimes. I'm being 100% serious. I get bureaucrats talk about building slow and expensive process controls to prevent someone from doing something stupid. I counter with the fact that we don't need the controls because my employees know I will simply fire the person if they do it.

freen 5y ago

Now, think about your position of power in a historical context. Are you a member of a group that has traditionally held power? A gender that has traditionally been considered “superior” or “acceptable”? Same thing applies there too.

anoonmoose 5y ago
GP getting upvoted because managers are in the minority on HN P getting downvoted because members of historically powerful groups and genders are not in the minority on HN
- Veen 5y ago
  Or because no one likes being lectured by pompous self-righteous strangers on a topic barely relevant to the article. Especially when it's something we've all heard a thousand times before presented as if it were a gift of great wisdom.
  - mrosett 5y ago
    This comment is gold. I genuinely chuckled as I read it.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I agree in this particular case but the exception proves the rule. Shoving vaguely applicable yet mostly useless proverbial advice into internet comment sections is a great low effort way to be rewarded with virtue points. There are a few examples elsewhere in the comments of such. Had he been more tactful about how he worded the topic it likely would have been better received.
- seneca 5y ago
  In my case, it's because a managerial position is an ephemeral role you voluntarily step into. Accepting a managerial role means accepting certain rights and constraints, including things like the topic of the article. Being told you have similar constraints simply because you were born with a certain configuration is both arguable, completely lacking any nuance or insight, and mostly original-sin tinged dogma.

dfxm12 5y ago

The weird thing is, in my experience, a lot of managers don't see themselves as having power, or at least, aren't willing to use that power for others. Bad managers who don't go to bat for their reports, who joke about firing you while forgetting they can actually fire you, not helping advance your career in any way, etc.

PeterisP 5y ago
I think that's the key dissonance here - that from the perspective of employees (which it looks like you're channeling here) managers have the power to fire people so it sounds like a real threat, but from the perspective of managers it's just making a fictional exaggeration because they know that they don't really have the power to unilaterally fire anyone without an excessive reason - in most organizations, unless they're the founder-CEO of a small company. They have been delegated some day-to-day administrative power from the corporation and HR with respect to their team, they have a voice and vote for hiring and firing, but they don't often have a veto vote for saying who is or isn't going to be in the team they have been assigned to manage. Not helping you advance or making your life difficult, yes, managers can do that, but in general in all the organizations I've seen (in IT corps and finance; perhaps industries like e.g. fast food are very different) if a manager would really want to get rid of someone, it would take them months of "political effort" to try and do so (and they might still fail), because they really did not have that power to just fire someone.
- scottLobster 5y ago
  Perhaps, but it's also worth noting the difference in visibility between employee/manager. For all the employee knows that "political effort" has been ongoing for the last few months and they were non the wiser. I work at a large company with separate engineering/management tracks, and gaining any visibility into the business from the engineering floor is like pulling teeth. For example, I've been blindsided by reassignments that are technically voluntary but I know if I make a stink about them it'll hurt my reputation. I certainly wasn't consulted about the problem my re-assignment addresses until it was happening. That lack of context creates an environment where employees have to read the tea leaves from the drips and drabs of information they can get, a joke about firing would definitely prompt me to update my resume, just in case.

kodah 5y ago

"Causing harm" is the kind of vaguery that makes people walk on eggshells when taken seriously enough. I agree there are things that managers shouldn't joke about, but I do think it's on us to be specific about topics and scenarios.

wefarrell 5y ago

"Always punch up, never punch down"

jnwatson 5y ago
Exactly. The article’s advice applies just as well if you’re a senior IC talking to a junior IC.
ponow 5y ago
What about, "do no wrong"?
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  (Good) Jokes that punch up are funny, not immoral. It's really hard to make a good joke that punches down; seeing it pulled off makes me really respect (and kinda dislike) a comedian (and I've never seen a non-professional manage it).
  - syspec 5y ago
    (got it)
philwelch 5y ago
The problem with this is that everyone sees themselves as the underdog.

mrtksn 5y ago

Yep, position of power implies relationship structure that brings completely different social dynamics than the equals. That’s also the exact same dynamics that makes something abuse or not abuse. The recent “Me too” movement was essentially based on it. I’m sure there could be another kind of “Me too” movement that’s not sexual but business or career centric.

chokma 5y ago

In school, we had a teacher who as famous for making jokes at the expense of others. One time during chemistry in front of the class he said to his most-liked pupil: "We have enough poison here to kill everyone in class. Well, except me and you, of course." And that was the time the class decided to go to our head teacher and tell her that his jokes were not funny at all and she reported back that our chemistry teacher was surprised about how someone did not appreciate his brand of humor.

noneeeed 5y ago

Totally agree with you on that. However a slight variation about joking with kids that I find does work surprisingly well is the totally exhagerrated consequences. But it really has to be totally over the top and utterly unbelievable, the sillier the better. It simultaneously breaks the impending mood of conflict, makes them laugh, while somehow actually motivating them to do what they are resisting. We all know it won't be the real consequence of them (not) doing whatever, but it still seems to work. It's weird. Doesn't always work of course (nothing with kids ever does), but a variation on the theme has frequently helped.

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
I've often done that with my own kids, once tried it with a child at my work - trying to none with them - kid took it seriously and screamed the place down. No young kids get sarcasm, but lots don't get exposed to silliness and so will believe even ludicrous stuff from parents. That child taught me well!
- Volundr 5y ago
  I think people often underestimate the role trust plays in humor (with both kids and adults). This explains why some pretty awful jokes can be funny when coming from someone you know intimately but not from a stranger, and why your kids find it funny when you suggest xyz as a consequence, but someone else's is horrified.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Yes, agreed. In this case I think it was exacerbated by developmental stage too.

namelosw 5y ago

I grew up in a region parents would randomly say something like the following to their kids on daily basis and I hated it: - You’re eating too much and we can’t afford you, we will giving you to human traffickers for free. - If you go out and play before finishing the homework you will be eaten by wolves. - If you don’t obey the cops are going to arrest and execute you. - Stay away from dogs or it will bite your pp off. - Oh we thought you were useful when we found you in the trash can, it turns out we’re wrong and we’re going to throw you back. And there are hundreds of variants or so. They must have an anti-fortune cookie database kept under their pillow… So pathetic.

pm90 5y ago
“If your grades don’t improve you are off to Military School.” Used to terrify me when I was really young because I believed everything they said. As I grew up and the threat never materialized I shrugged it off. Cultures that think this behavior is ok are the fucking worst. I would never ever do that if I had a child.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  It's okay! Anyone with 20 or so years' experience with the culture's “humour” will understand that it's clearly a joke. Duh. Stupid 10 year old for believing it. I found the tone of voice most significant in this kind of situation. When it was “smiley, jokey”, I would get it was a joke – but even mock seriousness or, worse, exasperated parent, was completely credible.
worker767424 5y ago
Guess now you get to return the favor and spend a decade talking about sending them to the nursing home.
peteradio 5y ago
Jesus, where did you grow up. Where I grew up we would make the first part of the joke but not the second. You are going to jail. Not "you are going to get shot in the head". Dogs biting dicks off?! America is too puritanical for that kind of imagery to fly.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gowld 5y ago

Or someone who routinely orders the killing of people, often killing innocents people, joking about murdering innocent people. https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+drone+jonas https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+drone+jonas