5 ms·

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.html https://www.nytimes.com/20

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning against authoritarian models of rule. My criticism doesn't mean I think we shouldn't investigate the origins either. It is in the world's public interest to err on the side of knowing too much so that maybe the chance of this happening again is reduced.

boulos 5y ago
> I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. Huh. I think most people find that if something "happens to you" it's less your fault than if you "made it happen". If your house burns down from a gas line explosion nearby, that's bad luck for you. If it burns down because you had a pile of paper next to your stove while operating it, that's on you. How it was handled after the fact is probably similar (though again, if it was your own source, then it probably meant you had even earlier warning), but I believe it's mostly down to "things that happen to you versus things you cause".
- parineum 5y ago
  If you had a grease fire in your kitchen but didn't call the fire department because you didn't want your neighbors to know you couldn't cook the situation would be similar. Especially if it burned down the whole neighborhood.
glitchc 5y ago
I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter. I have no qualms about China conducting research in this regard, other countries are doing it too and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, if it is proven to be true that gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan laboratory, it highlights the sheer stupidity of the government in thinking they could build a military bio-weapons research laboratory in the heart of a major city center. Western nations that do have such facilities place them far away from high-density urban populations, precisely as a last-ditch measure to mitigate the impact of an (eventual) breach. It's worse for the CCP if it boils down to incompetence rather than malice. Becoming a laughingstock of the world and not being taken seriously is perhaps their deepest fear.
- krull10 5y ago
  I don’t know if they do gain of function research there, but NEIDL is in the heart of Boston. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emerging_Infectious_Diseases_Laboratories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emerging_Infectious_D...
  - timr 5y ago
    Pretty much every BSL4 facility in the US is within easy commuting distance from a major city. The CDC being a great example. These are not military, but it doesn't matter.
    - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
      In the US. . . EVERYTHING is Military. EVERYTHING.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Zing! This is how communist regimes work in practice: * Utter incompetency. Got to promote the 'working class' in positions of authority across the board regardless of actual qualifications. Got to follow ideological prescriptions to a T regardless of real-world outcomes. * Extreme message control. The communist society is perfect, except for those horrible people that refuse to support the party 100%. And also moving every day closer to perfection. Don't you dare ask questions, because then you become the reason why perfection has not been achieved, and the Party, as the legitimate representative of the people, will be justified to act against you.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > communist regimes Not sure how this comes into the question. There has not been a communist regime on earth, according to Karl Marx's definition. And China is a capitalism country... Ask any mentally stable US citizen visiting China, if they tell you that China is in any bit less capitalism than USA, they probably are trying not to offend your American Exceptionalism.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Just wanted to second that I think Zeynep Tufekci has consistently had by far the best rational analysis of the pandemic over the past 18+ months. I find her commentary always does a great job at analysis and she never falls into the trap of social pressure affecting her conclusions or messaging.
titzer 5y ago
> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning against authoritarian models of rule. It's typical CYA stuff from corrupt institutions that cannot abide transparency. For some, the appearance of having made a mistake or having been incompetent is so uncomfortable that they will stonewall all possible investigations to avoid looking like they've made mistakes. Even when those mistakes were just that--mistakes.
justicezyx 5y ago
> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. Let's make that mistake and blackout in the scale. Let's compare China's mistake and blackout against US, the closest nation in population and economy scale. Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout...
- __john 5y ago
  I don't understand your comment, > Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout... What mistake and blackout did the US make?
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-trump-s-coronavirus-responses https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-t... https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/ https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavir...

boulos 5y ago

> I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. Huh. I think most people find that if something "happens to you" it's less your fault than if you "made it happen". If your house burns down from a gas line explosion nearby, that's bad luck for you. If it burns down because you had a pile of paper next to your stove while operating it, that's on you. How it was handled after the fact is probably similar (though again, if it was your own source, then it probably meant you had even earlier warning), but I believe it's mostly down to "things that happen to you versus things you cause".

parineum 5y ago
If you had a grease fire in your kitchen but didn't call the fire department because you didn't want your neighbors to know you couldn't cook the situation would be similar. Especially if it burned down the whole neighborhood.

glitchc 5y ago

I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter. I have no qualms about China conducting research in this regard, other countries are doing it too and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, if it is proven to be true that gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan laboratory, it highlights the sheer stupidity of the government in thinking they could build a military bio-weapons research laboratory in the heart of a major city center. Western nations that do have such facilities place them far away from high-density urban populations, precisely as a last-ditch measure to mitigate the impact of an (eventual) breach. It's worse for the CCP if it boils down to incompetence rather than malice. Becoming a laughingstock of the world and not being taken seriously is perhaps their deepest fear.

krull10 5y ago
I don’t know if they do gain of function research there, but NEIDL is in the heart of Boston. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emerging_Infectious_Diseases_Laboratories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emerging_Infectious_D...
- timr 5y ago
  Pretty much every BSL4 facility in the US is within easy commuting distance from a major city. The CDC being a great example. These are not military, but it doesn't matter.
  - DisjointedHunt 5y ago
    In the US. . . EVERYTHING is Military. EVERYTHING.
angelzen 5y ago
Zing! This is how communist regimes work in practice: * Utter incompetency. Got to promote the 'working class' in positions of authority across the board regardless of actual qualifications. Got to follow ideological prescriptions to a T regardless of real-world outcomes. * Extreme message control. The communist society is perfect, except for those horrible people that refuse to support the party 100%. And also moving every day closer to perfection. Don't you dare ask questions, because then you become the reason why perfection has not been achieved, and the Party, as the legitimate representative of the people, will be justified to act against you.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > communist regimes Not sure how this comes into the question. There has not been a communist regime on earth, according to Karl Marx's definition. And China is a capitalism country... Ask any mentally stable US citizen visiting China, if they tell you that China is in any bit less capitalism than USA, they probably are trying not to offend your American Exceptionalism.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Just wanted to second that I think Zeynep Tufekci has consistently had by far the best rational analysis of the pandemic over the past 18+ months. I find her commentary always does a great job at analysis and she never falls into the trap of social pressure affecting her conclusions or messaging.

titzer 5y ago

> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning against authoritarian models of rule. It's typical CYA stuff from corrupt institutions that cannot abide transparency. For some, the appearance of having made a mistake or having been incompetent is so uncomfortable that they will stonewall all possible investigations to avoid looking like they've made mistakes. Even when those mistakes were just that--mistakes.

justicezyx 5y ago

> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. Let's make that mistake and blackout in the scale. Let's compare China's mistake and blackout against US, the closest nation in population and economy scale. Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout...

__john 5y ago
I don't understand your comment, > Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout... What mistake and blackout did the US make?
- justicezyx 5y ago
  https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-trump-s-coronavirus-responses https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-t... https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/ https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavir...