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Big gap between Pfizer, Moderna vaccines for preventing Covid hospitalizations
- rastafang 5y agooops, I got Pfizer...
- DantesKite 5y agoSo Moderna provides better long-term protection than Pfizer huh? It'll be interesting to see whether even more effective vaccines come out in a few years.
- version_five 5y agoStupid question, could this come down to the volume of the shot? I understand Moderna is ~3x as much as pfizer volume wise, otherwise I thought the method of action is roughly the same.
- Robotbeat 5y agoIndeed. To some extent, we can use pretty basic principles like the Law of Mass Action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_mass_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_mass_action "In chemistry, the law of mass action is the proposition that the rate of the chemical reaction is directly proportional to the product of the activities or concentrations of the reactants.") to inform our priors on this. We should expect the Moderna one to be both somewhat more effective and have somewhat worse side effects simply due to the higher dose and similar action.
- userbinator 5y agoThe other question is whether Moderna will also last approximately 3x as long as Pfizer, or if it's a far more nonlinear curve.
- Robotbeat 5y agoI’m sure it’s nonlinear to some extent as the immune system is complex. But you’d be surprised if there was zero effect of more dose.
- bryan0 5y agoNot stupid at all. Yes this is the main theory as to why moderna wanes less than pfizer. https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-lower-dose-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-fewer-side-effects-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-lower-dose-moderna-co...
- Gibbon1 5y agoOther theory is Moderna has 4 weeks between doses vs 3 for Pfizer.
- version_five 5y agoThis is interesting. In canada we had a longer waiting time between the shots because of lack of supply. People who got it earliest (older, etc) generally had a 12 week waiting time I think though it may have been shortened as we got more supply. I got my first (pfizer) as soon as I was eligible, and could get my second 8 weeks later. I think people that got their first shot later could wait a much shorter time, i.e. the recommended 3/4 weeks. It would be interesting to see if its possible to disentangle the effects of the way they were rolled out in different countries to see how much of a difference timing makes.
- 1cvmask 5y agoAnd that Pfizer was supposedly given to older people (weaker immune system) versus the others. Would be good to have adjusted studies.
- 5y ago
- ayngg 5y agoAmong other differences, Moderna dosages had ~3x more mRNA compared to Pfizer (100 v 30 micrograms), and their regime had longer periods between dosages. Apparently rationale for Pfizer doses was to minimize side effects because from their initial testing they did not find a significant increase in antibodies with a higher dosage [1]. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906
- BuyMyBitcoins 5y agoThis question is being asked from a place of ignorance, why aren’t there inactivated virus vaccines for covid yet? Wouldn’t they be more effective? (Edit: in the US. It seems like only mRNA is available)
- Animats 5y agoSeveral inactivated virus vaccines exist for COVID-19. SinoVac/CoronaVac.[1] Sputnik-V.[2] Janssen.[3] (The Johnson and Johnson vaccine.) None are as effective as the messenger RNA vaccines at preventing symptomatic illness, although they're pretty good at preventing death. All three are easier to store and transport than the mRNA vaccines, as well as being one-shot vaccines. There's a political problem - they're seen as inferior vaccines for poor people, at least in the US. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_V_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_V_COVID-19_vaccine [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janssen_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janssen_COVID-19_vaccine
- fhdch 5y agoSputnik V and Johnson and Johnson are not live or attenuated virus but adenovirus vaccines. They infect the host with a harmless virus that make your cell produce spike protein. They are a fairly new tech. Also Sputnik V is a two dose vaccine, like Astra Zeneca’s
- SV_BubbleTime 5y agoThey are new tech in humans, slight but important distinction, as mRNA is new everywhere (but amazing tech!).
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Spooky23 5y agoIt’s unfortunate that went that way. There were supply problems with J&J, and by the time that cleared up, states had mostly built out infrastructure to handle the storage and transport limitations of the RNA vaccines. One shot is a miracle for vulnerable populations — my dad was a very vulnerable person with limited mobility; the county sheriffs went out and vaccinated him and others. The two shot regimens are also difficult for workers in swing /night shift and other scenarios.
- sbassi 5y agoI already have 2 doses of Pfizer, can I get Moderna on top of that?
- bryan0 5y agoThis is a good question. Are you in the US? I think they are only approving the pfizer boosters right now for those 65+. However people are definitely going into CVS or whatever and say they need to get their first moderna shot…
- ghaff 5y ago65+ or immunocompromised. And there’s no proof required of the latter. But as you say presumably one can go someplace that has no record of them and get a “first” shot of something else.
- dehrmann 5y agoMost (if not all) states aren't requiring an ID, so it's pretty easy. I'm getting suspicious of the Santa Clara county vaccination numbers. I wouldn't be shocked if 5% of people got a third dose.
- hnyolo081221 5y agoThe Pharmacist wording his question if I had previously received a Moderna shot instead of any covid vaccination at all makes me wonder if it was a nod to people looking for a vaccination most effective at the time.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- hnyolo081221 5y agoI'm in the US and in a very vaccine hesitant and anti-vaccination area (they maybe semantically different but are effectively identical in outcome).
- onionisafruit 5y ago
- roenxi 5y agoIs there somewhere that tracks the number of Pfizer/Moderna/Other vaccines administered in the US? > “That’s the beauty of the emergency use authorization,” said Monto, an epidemiologist at University of Michigan. “It can be changed based on changing data.” It is pushing 2 years. Although this is technical language, really there should be a move away from the word 'emergency' to talk about what is going on. This is now what business as usual looks like for the next 5 years.
- justinator 5y agoI think it's an apt description. "Emergency Use" is different than, "FDA Approved"
- Spooky23 5y agoIt is not pushing two years. The initial vaccination campaigns began last November in limited quantities. Israel is the leader here, and has better control of reactionary elements of the population. Their data is pretty solid. Personally, I’d focus on the Israeli reports and ignore hot takes from the US government - between the chaos of the previous POTUS and the stresses of the pandemic, I think the US agencies are hurting.
- nradov 5y agoThe CDC is putting our solid data and reports. They don't seem to be hurting too badly, and shouldn't be ignored.
- atlgator 5y agoThere is so much money raining down on CDC that contractors can't keep up on procurements.
- refurb 5y agoWhat? Israel is at 62% fully vaccinated which is quite far behind countries like Canada and Singapore. A big part of that is the Orthodox population who is choosing not to get vaccinated. Not sure why you think Israel isn’t dealing with the same issues countries like the US are.
- thatsamonad 5y agoA couple of things I found interesting from the study: - The eligible participants in the study tended to be over the age of 65 (Moderna median = 66, Pfizer median = 68) - The Pfizer cohort (738 eligible participants) was almost twice the size of the Moderna cohort (476 eligible participants) Would these factors have skewed the results at all? To me it seems like the study strongly indicates a difference for those age 65 and over but not necessarily for younger groups. There is also still evidence of strong protection from hospitalization and death with both vaccines so I don’t think anyone necessarily needs to be regretting the fact that they got a pair of Pfizer shots at this point. Source study: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7038e1.htm#T1_down https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7038e1.htm#T1_down
- kristofferR 5y agoIt's consistent with basically all non-US research too though, this is just one study out of many with consistent results. The evidence for Moderna providing a larger immune response due to the 3x dosage and longer intervals between doses isn't really in dispute at this point.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dehrmann 5y ago> due to the 3x dosage and longer intervals between doses Aren't these just hypotheses? They're very plausible, but I wouldn't go as far as saying the mechanism isn't in dispute. It's the outcome that isn't in dispute.
- omegalulw 5y agoI think they are. The third factor that differs between the two is the design of the vaccine. Presumably they both target the spike protein and use mRNA so they should be similar but still different nonetheless.
- kristofferR 5y ago
- senectus1 5y agoI wonder how they compare to the AZ vaccine.
- pandeiro 5y agoWonder of the number and frequency of these 'surprises' has anything to do with them being trialed and authorized in 3-6 months rather than the standard 6-10 years.
- nverno 5y ago77% still quite a bit better than flu vaccines (40-60) but not nearly as good as some like measles (~97). They basically eradicated polio but that was 99-100% after three doses.
- smnrchrds 5y ago77% is the effectiveness against hospitalization. Effectiveness against infection and transmission tends to be lower. To stop the spread, what matters is effectiveness against transmission. And since there are animal reservoirs for COVID, it will not be eradicated.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- nverno 5y agoSo is the 77% comparable to the effectiveness of polio vaccine? Or has the meaning changed. If a lot of these vaccines leave people walking around with no symptoms but still infectious it's a miracle they ever eradicate anything. It's starting to make sense why most diseases are still around actually.
- smnrchrds 5y agoMy understanding is that for the polio vaccine, the effectivenesses are the same, but they are not for the COVID vaccine. I would appreciate it if someone could explain this.
- Gibbon1 5y agoWhat always gets me is how pleased guys like you are when you say this stuff.
- dehrmann 5y ago> animal reservoirs Are there? It might have come from another species, but humans might not interact with it all that often. Other animals can clearly get it, but do we know the R0 for covid in, say, cats?
- dzhiurgis 5y agohttps://archive.is/xlwtx https://archive.is/xlwtx