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Assyrian soldier diving with an inflatable goatskin bag (ca. 865–860 BC)
- nradov 5y agoHe's swimming on the surface. That bag would be too buoyant for diving.
- wavefunction 5y agoWhy have an inflatable goatskin that you're inhaling from for swimming on the surface? Considering the fish next to him it seems more likely the artist left out the boring aspects of holding rocks or whatever to reduce buoyancy.
- nradov 5y agoArtists don't always use realistic perspectives, especially not that long ago. The swimmer isn't inhaling, he's blowing into the goatskin to keep it inflated. It's just like a modern inflatable life vest which has a manual inflation tube to use if the automatic inflator fails. There are no rocks (although ancient free divers sometimes did hold rocks to dive down faster).
- jccooper 5y agoWho says he's breathing from it? More likely he's breathing into it (like bagpipes) to keep it inflated. It's not likely to be perfectly airtight.
- biot 5y agoDid you also consider the horse depicted below the fish?
- wavefunction 5y agoHorses and the sea have a long history.
- sbacic 5y agoYep. One of the first issues you'll encounter when learning to dive is getting your body to sink (that's what all those lead weights are for). I also don't think an inflatable goatskin has enough air capacity to be relevant.
- pbhjpbhj 5y agoDid you see the second image -- how about if it was deflated and used as a re-breather and was principally to stop exhaled bubbles from giving your position away to archers as you crossed a river/moat?
- caymanjim 5y agoOne cubic foot of air displaces one cubic foot of water (compression notwithstanding). A cubic foot of water weighs 62lbs. I think you're vastly underestimating the bouyancy of an inflated bag. Try to pull a standard birthday party balloon underwater. It's nearly impossible to do. You would need a tremendous amount of extra weight to submerge a goatskin full of air.
- sbacic 5y agoI was referring to the bladder's capacity to store breathable air. I'm well aware how buoyant an inflated bag (or a wetsuit, for that matter) can be :)
- LeifCarrotson 5y agoAdditionally, a bag of air of that volume would not give much time underwater - maybe an extra breath or two. The extra effort and drag of carrying the bag would make it less effective than just diving. A modern steel SCUBA tank is typically pressurized to 200 bar, or about 3000 psi, making it 200x more useful than a bag. An inflatable ball is only inflated to about 0.5 bar/8 psig, human lungs are only capable of about 0.1 bar/2 psi. This would be about as useless underwater as one of those little one-liter bottles with integrated mouthpiece that scams show being inflated with a bicycle pump... Still cool to see swimming like this depicted in 800BC! Puritan attitudes towards swimwear as well as imperial navies conscription of non-swimming sailors seem to have caused us to imagine swimming as a modern activity that we do better than anyone in history, but I expect that people throughout history did lots of swimming. I also find it interesting that he's depicted wearing a helmet, I wonder if that's to identify that "this guy's an Assyrian foot soldier" or if they actually swam in their helmets!
- clipradiowallet 5y ago> This would be about as useless underwater as one of those little one-liter bottles with integrated mouthpiece that scams show being inflated with a bicycle pump... These irk me too! The pictures never mention that the hand pump in them, isn't a bike pump at all, it's a high-pressure pump that you will have to pump for nearly an hour. I see these constantly in the "suggested products" when shopping for any diving kit on amazon.
- Retric 5y agoIt’s more complicated than that because the bag can be deflated unlike a scuba tank so you’re benefiting from normal atmospheric pressure. Assuming the scuba tank was filled with normal atmosphere and this bag was about the size of someone’s torso, it’s probably much closer than 200x. First you don’t normally do ultra slow deep breathing with scuba gear which can increase the amount of oxygen extracted. Next the volume of scuba tanks isn’t that high normally and you lose reserve capacity. My guess is up to 5 minutes of air in a bag is probably possible which could be a quite a bit if their pearl diving or something. On the other hand it could simple be an inflatable bag useful as a flotation device.
- keville 5y agoWhat about needing to counter the weight of the sword depicted just ahead of the soldier?
- AndyMcConachie 5y agoSee the first reply. > Another possible explanation for the above scene is that the soldier is helping himself to float by blowing into the goatskin, which is therefore a sort of floating device.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- zeteo 5y agoAgreed, also I think he's breathing into the bag not out of it. If you have a flotation device that's not fully sealed then you need to periodically re-inflate it a bit. It's the equivalent of keeping a leaky boat afloat by bailing water.
- stevespang 5y agoYep, unless he weighted himself down with bags of rocks which is possible (dive weights), the bag would be too buoyant and he would not be able to swim downward to depth. He would likely need ropes or straps to keep the bag to his body, instead of struggling to keep the bag from slipping away.
- pbhjpbhj 5y agoFascinating, the second image attached to https://twitter.com/FedeItaliano76/status/1435326827971612675?s=20 https://twitter.com/FedeItaliano76/status/143532682797161267... is good too -- I'm not settled in that confirming the second hypothesis (surface use), as the Twitter user says, it seems to me to also give stronger weight to the first (under water use). In this image the 'goatskin' users appear fully clothed in dresses (could they be scale armour or other weighted clothing), only one has a beard. A person without a goatskin appears "above" them (could be behind depending on perspective) and IMO appears to be getting shot with arrows. The "divers" aren't wearing onion-shaped helmets. The goatskins appear to be fixed to the belts on their waists. One could interpret this as showing underwater swimming to avoid archers. Perhaps it was an idea, rather than a practiced activity? Maybe the goatskin has rocks in it too, to balance buoyancy? Perhaps the carrying a rock bit was not shown for fear of letting enemies in on the idea!?! [But yes, more probably a floatation device; fun to speculate though. Would particularly be interested to look at perspective in Assyrian bas reliefs] Really interesting, would love to hear some Assyrian historians debate this.
- woofie11 5y agoI would too. Unfortunately, the last Assyrian historians died nearly 3000 years ago.
- fsckboy 5y agoThere are still Assyrians today, they are a persecuted Christian minority in the lands currently disputed between Shia and Sunni factions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_continuity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_continuity
- woofie11 5y agoThat was a fascinating article. Thank you!
- killjoywashere 5y agoThe work of submerging air at atmospheric pressure vastly exceeds the potential energy value extractable from the oxygen in terms of ATP. He's using it to float.
- abeppu 5y agoI think it's interesting that he's shown swimming mostly nude but wearing a protruding hat which seems pretty impractical. Is the hat symbolic?
- ddalex 5y agoIn certain societies (Thracians, for example) the type of hat and decorations on it would indicate the social status of the wearer.
- abeppu 5y agoYeah, in general that wouldn't be surprising. The OP describes this guy as a "soldier", but I wonder if there's enough info to know whether he's just a soldier perhaps someone more important.
- tragomaskhalos 5y agoA related oddity - according to "Navies of the Napoleonic Era", Turkish ships had higher decks than was normal for other navies allegedly to allow for elaborate headgear, even though this actually compromised the stability of the ships.
- handrous 5y agoIs that a hold-over from Byzantium/Eastern-Roman-Empire, kept after the Turkish conquest? They were all about elaborate hierarchies of ranks and titles, often expressed through big hats or helmets.
- fourtrees 5y agoNeat idea, but I'd bet it was a completely native decision, maybe forced on some poor naval architect by a grandee who didn't understand the implications of the order. Then again, there's no proof one way or another.
- mcswell 5y agoIf you're shooting, or dumping burning oil on your enemy, or even throwing rocks at them, being a bit higher than they are is a significant advantage, if for no other reason than the fact that you can see them better than they can see you. It's like the high ground in land battles.
- aaron695 5y agoFloating on sheepskin https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/travel/2012-11/15/content_15931364.htm https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/travel/2012-11/15/content_1593... "Sheepskin rafts can be traced back to the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220), when soldiers used them to ferry men and goods during wars. Local residents in Lanzhou used them to shuttle passengers, fresh fruits and vegetables across the river." Sheepskin raft becomes popular for tourists to sightsee along Yellow River in Gansu http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/31/c_138105617_9.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/31/c_138105617_9.ht...
- notorandit 5y agoYou cannot dive with an inflated goatskin, unless you carry extra weight, like stones.
- 3pt14159 5y agoSwords and armour are heavy.
- wil421 5y agoThen you would just become buoyant and not even sink. Try to bring a basket ball to the bottom of a pool. Grab some bricks and a basket ball then see what happens.
- simonh 5y agoAs soon as you breathed in the air from the skin, you would lose the buoyancy form it and sink to the bottom.
- djrogers 5y agoUmm, what do you think happens to the air in that skin when you breathe it? It goes into your body, and continues to provide buoyancy.
- treis 5y agoPeople exhale too.
- simonh 5y agoSo the person doesn't inhale deeply and hold their breath beforehand, and submerges with empty lungs? That seems, well, not ideal.
- mcswell 5y agoNo, it goes into your lungs and provides buoyancy for as long as you hold that breath. Some of the oxygen gets taken into your bloodstream, where it no longer provides buoyancy, but that's compensated by an (approximately) equal amount of CO2 that you exhale. But unless you blow it back in the bag, it ceases to provide you any buoyancy because it goes back into the atmosphere. (And if you do blow it back into the bag, your next breath will contain rather a lot of CO2...and the next one after that, even more.)
- _bax 5y agoAnd with the bathing cap...
- dr_dshiv 5y agoThe Batavians used amphibious warfare, which was used by the Roman Empire to wage surprise attacks in Britain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)
- strangattractor 5y agoI think he is drinking wine from a calfskin.
- codezero 5y agoI mean, that's one thing to do when stuck in a river trying to flee angry archers.
- Igelau 5y agoPoor guy must be freezing.
- optimalsolver 5y agoIs Federico Italiano really the Twitter poster's real name? Coz that's about the most Italian name ever.
- Borrible 5y agoUsing inflated animal skins as floating devices is rather old and widespread tech. Floats: A Study in Primitive Water-Transport: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2844455 https://www.jstor.org/stable/2844455 Animal Skin Floats : https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Prehistoric_Craft/Float.html https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Prehistoric_Cr... Roman military pontoons made from inflated animal skins: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291033772_Roman_military_pontoons_sustained_on_inflated_animal_skins https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291033772_Roman_mil... Sheepskin rafts are known in China since the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.) The Assyrians did use inflated animal skin for their rafts. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323672056_The_Reflection_of_Mesopotamia_Water_Transportation_to_Figurative_Arts https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323672056_The_Refle... By the way, the tech may save your life: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/how-to-turn-your-pants-into-a-flotation-device/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/how-to-turn-your-pan...
- muleroid 5y agoOne thing I haven't seen mentioned which jumped out to me about the first theory is how would they have inflated the bag with breathable air in the first place? Were air pumps around back then?
- mc32 5y agoI imagine you could have two bags, one big one, connected to a smaller one and squeeze air from the bigger into the smaller (many ways)... but sheepskin isn't going to hold a lot of pressure and would just bust (not sure but not as good as a soccer ball) and given it's "hotdog" shaped and not spherical, it's probably not more than 2 - 4 psi.
- mcswell 5y agoNo one has suggested one possibility: that this was the art work for an idea some Assyrian Beltway Bandit was trying to sell. 1000 units of Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus for the armies of Tiglath Pileser for the low price of 100 talents of silver. As seen on Rockovision!