23 ms·

Laziness does not exist (2018)

• noiseman 5y ago
  > As Kim explained to me, if you’re laying out in the freezing cold, drinking some alcohol may be the only way to warm up and get to sleep. Does alcohol actually warm you up? I thought it did the opposite.
  • betenoire 5y ago
    it cools you down, but you feel warm in the process
  • def_true_false 5y ago
    It feels like it's making you warm. It doesn't make much sense from calories per dollar perspective though, so not a great example of valid decision making by homeless people.
    • def_true_false 5y ago
      I wonder how much experience the people who downvoted this have with sleeping rough in a city.
  • Zebfross 5y ago
    According to Mythbusters it warms your extremities by cooling your core.
    • SilverRed 5y ago
      Which is the reverse of what you body tries to do since it has a greater chance of killing you.
      • ashtonkem 5y ago
        But a natural consequence of the fact that we only detect heat on our skin; we have no real way to measure our own core temperature without tools.
  • Frost1x 5y ago
    It dulls the senses and temporarily increases blood flow around a lot of your skin where temperature is monitored, which makes you feel warmer. So it could make a bad situation seem better than it is, could also lead to hypothermia because you've tricked your brain into thinking it's warmer than it actually is. Also, alcohol typically has a misconception of improving sleep. In some situations, maybe, but it tends to give you a lighter sleep and leaving less refreshed if you consume a lot.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • bserge 5y ago
      Yeah, so I'd rather have 5 hours of light sleep than try to fall asleep for 2 hours and then wake up 4 hours later. Alcohol helps. Just not long term.
  • kingforaday 5y ago
    It's a vasodilator, but over time it will actually cause your core temp to drop.
  • kbutler 5y ago
    If that's the quality of advice from Kim or from the article, it's best to disregard it. Drinking alcohol when you're cold and don't have access to shelter is dangerous: https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/how-drinking-alcohol-makes-you-vulnerable-in-cold-weather-2/433881 https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/how-drinking-alc...
    • dustintrex 5y ago
      It's not advice, they are explaining why people make "bad decisions" like this.
  • mattnewton 5y ago
    I interpreted this as drinking alcohol so that you could sleep even if the cold would have made you too uncomfortable normally. It's not always adaptive obviously (you could freeze to death, etc), but the idea is that the alcohol allows you to sleep when you would otherwise be kept awake by discomforts that cannot be fixed tonight, and the night of full sleep will serve you better.
  • all2well 5y ago
    The point probably is that there are certainly homeless people who drink less than I do, so I really shouldn't be the one to judge people for it.
    • hellbannedguy 5y ago
      I once heard a homeless liaison explain it perfectly, "When your climbing into a wet thicket of Scoth Broom to sleep; you might want a nip."
• IncRnd 5y ago
  The author directly stated seeing repeated procrastination in many situations, yet stated that laziness does not exist. The premise of this article is literally founded on intellectual laziness. When a person takes a course twice without ever managing to turn in homework, the situation of the student is not completely to blame, since the student didn't take the time to do something - the work, withdrawing in time, discussing options with the professor, something. It seems fairly clear that the author has a "schtick" or a unique "angle" on social psychology that is being promulgated. As it turns out, they released a book this year called, "Laziness Does Not Exist", three years after this article was written.
  • CharlesW 5y ago
    TFA explains that procrastination is not laziness.
    • IncRnd 5y ago
      > TFA explains that procrastination is not laziness. I didn't say that procrastination is identical with laziness. I did give a direct example drawn from the article showing how a person exhibited laziness. The difference between procrastination and laziness is obvious from their definitions. TFA is not needed to know they differ. Procrastination is postponing something, while laziness is being unwilling to act. But, none of that matters. The blanket assertion is that Laziness Does Not Exist, which is obviously false. There are people who are unwilling to act in certain situations.
      • carbonguy 5y ago
        Your original comment starts with: > The author directly stated seeing repeated procrastination in many situations, yet stated that laziness does not exist. This phrasing, with its use of "yet" to contrast procrastination and laziness, strongly implies that from your perspective procrastination IS laziness. So, while you didn't literally say "procrastination is identical with laziness" maybe you can see how you might have given that impression? For what it's worth, I agree with you that the title "Laziness Does Not Exist" is not literally true; "laziness" is a real term that people use to describe behavior, and it "exists" in that sense, at least. Do you feel there is some deeper relevance to the term, though? For example, do you think it's more accurate to say that "laziness" is an inherent character trait that explains behavior, rather than merely describing it?
• smitty1e 5y ago
  > It’s really helpful to respond to a person’s ineffective behavior with curiosity rather than judgment. Especially initially. But if one sympathizes with a Wally figure, then one will become adept at sympathizing with that Wally figure.
• robbedpeter 5y ago
  This author is a nonsense person. Laziness exists. . It's nice to think of humans as noble and well intentioned despite some externalities, but some people are consciously, deliberately, knowingly manipulative and deceitful and lazy. Not everyone is good. Most people aren't. We're vicious, tribal, vengeful, resentful, always looking out for whatever the biggest circle is we feel responsible for, whether it's a country, a company, a team, family, friends, or just ourselves. The reasons might make sense to the person doing the rationalizing, but that doesn't negate the fact that bad traits exist. You can't rationalize away the consequences of choice in individual life circumstances. This person is why I have very little respect for academia. If they're a "PhD," then the term means nothing.
  • IncRnd 5y ago
    Exactly! This is the author's book, Laziness Does Not Exist - https://smile.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1982140100 https://smile.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1982140100 . The author has a gimmick they are milking.
  • ativzzz 5y ago
    > deliberately, knowingly manipulative and deceitful I would argue that none of those traits correspond with laziness in any way. In fact, it takes a lot of work to become really good at these skills (for most people), and performing them is not lazy, but it can appear so to someone who doesn't realize they are being manipulated.
  • gls2ro 5y ago
    > Not everyone is good Actually it really depends who is the subject of the "good" judgement. Everyone is doing what they think/feel/sense is good for them. So in this sense there is no good or bad: it is just acting out on self wants/needs. The good or bad makes sense when changing the frame or point of view from self to someone else. So good and bad appears only in relation with other people. In this sense it is subjective and history is a proof of this.
• serverholic 5y ago
  I'm curious what the author thinks about the navy seals. Would they be successful taking his approach? I don't think so. I think some people respond to the lovey-dovey caring approach that he takes and others respond better to the strong, aggressive approach that the navy seals, and his coworker take. My biggest criticism of the author is that he makes a strong moral judgment that his way is the right way and any other way is wrong. For example, he paints his fellow teacher as an evil person who abuses her students. I'd even go so far as saying this encapsulates one of the reasons we are so politically polarized these days. I think the left has a tendency to act like this guy and the right wingers get sick of people thinking they're evil.
  • ativzzz 5y ago
    > I'm curious what the author thinks about the navy seals Probably that it weeds out a lot of people with seen or unseen issues who would be perceived by society as lazy.
    • serverholic 5y ago
      Check out David Goggins. It can also push people to get past their issues.
    • tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      Perhaps it's the ones that progress in that environment that have the problems. It would be interesting to look at rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce and violence amongst this group. https://www.thefix.com/navy-seal-culture-eroding-due-drug-abuse-captain-says https://www.thefix.com/navy-seal-culture-eroding-due-drug-ab... https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/ https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/ https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-navy-seal-platoon-ordered-home-iraq-allegedly/story?id=64552695 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-navy-seal-platoon-ordered...
  • micromacrofoot 5y ago
    the attrition rate of the navy seals is ~75%, some % of that "successful" 25% ultimately go on to suffer from PTSD... it's not a great parallel
• sdwr 5y ago
  Human problems can always be redefined. This reminds me of something on (the old) SSC, about how new psychological frameworks for treatment always look promising at discovery, then tail off in effectiveness down to the rest of the pack as they're adopted more widely. The author here has something to give: enthusiasm, understanding, compassion, and it's not surprising that he is finding outsized results. My own experience with procrastination is one of failing to clear mental hurdles. I always did assignments at the last minute, and relied on adrenaline and unconscious skill to carry me over the finish line. The bar eventually got high enough that I couldn't clear it in one late-night coffee-fueled panic, and I started balking at the line.
  • milesvp 5y ago
    I wish I could find the talk by a professor who gave a lecture on this topic. It really helped drive home the need to break tasks down into bite sized chunks. He basically found that if his grad students weren’t making progress on their thesis, it was invariably because they basically didn’t know what to do next. So he would work with them on finding a next thing to work on, which almost invariably required breaking some bigger task down. I don’t remember the field so this might not work as well for topics that require a eureka moment, but I’ve certainly found if I’m not making progress on something it’s often necessary for me to find a more time boxable thing to work on next. edit: got lucky. Tim Pychyl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFQA998WiA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFQA998WiA
• dang 5y ago
  Past related threads: Laziness Does Not Exist - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398182 - June 2021 (1 comment) Laziness Does Not Exist - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23761968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23761968 - July 2020 (1 comment) Laziness Does Not Exist but unseen barriers do - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17720674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17720674 - Aug 2018 (10 comments) Laziness Does Not Exist - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17230047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17230047 - June 2018 (6 comments)
• trilinearnz 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing this, in all sincerity.
• black_13 5y ago
  What is the obsession on this page with “procrastination”?
  • potatoman22 5y ago
    Why put it in "quotes"?
    • black_13 5y ago
      What is the obsession with procrastination on this page is this Bay Area thing?
      • Toutouxc 5y ago
        I live 9 400 kilometers from the Bay Area and I can assure you that it's definitely a thing here, in my room.
      • FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        HN is a way to procrastinate. So it leads to conversations about procrastination. It's like if a bar were full of people having a conversation about how they need to quit drinking. Or to put it more sympathetically, in the language of the article, it's because there's some need that isn't being met. Given that HN provides something like socialization, I'd bet it's that.
• dustintrex 5y ago
  The title is clickbaity and the content a bit overboard, but this statement resonates: > If a person’s behavior doesn’t make sense to you, it is because you are missing a part of their context. Working in a large company with lots of stakeholders pulling in different directions, I've lost count of how many times I've heard X complain that Y is an idiot and what they're doing makes no sense, and then talked to Y directly and realized that from their point of view Y's actions are entirely rational.
  • Cerium 5y ago
    Having patience and compassion for our fellow humans is important. I often remind myself that people generally take actions that make sense to them. The fact that they don't make sense to me does not mean that they are wrong or stupid, it means I have not taken time to see their perspective.
    • mwilliaams 5y ago
      But also sometimes they might just be stupid
      • kayodelycaon 5y ago
        Yes, but is every person you think is stupid, actually stupid? Do they actually lack intelligence? Are they reacting to something they see, that you do not? The whole point is to understand the context and look for solutions. Not just dismiss people you don’t like or don’t want to deal with by labeling them as stupid or lazy. If you’ve exhausted the other options or ways to approach the problem, perhaps stupid is the explanation.
        • kqr 5y ago
          The classic Hanlon's razor is "Don't attribute to malice what which is adequately explained by stupidity." I like the variations that take it one step further, "Don't attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by ignorance", and "Don't attribute to ignorance that which is adequately explained by bad luck."
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• Causality1 5y ago
  This seems less clever when you realize the same argument applies to every other personality trait, because they're all dependent on something. Nobody does anything truly nonsensical because the brain is not capable of it. Every attitude and behavior is the result of circumstance. Despite that we've as a society decided that some behaviors deserve moral judgment. If you want to argue that judgment is a mistake go ahead, but laziness isn't any more real or fake than boredom or talkativeness or pedophilia or rudeness.
  • themacguffinman 5y ago
    Eh I don't think that's entirely true. Not all traits are so circumstantial. Some biologically inherited or genetic conditions (eg. ADHD or Aspergers) correlate highly with personality "traits" that can hold pretty consistently across different environments and circumstances. There are people with brain damage that are observed to be consistently more aggressive, consistent enough to be identifiable as a trait. In some cases, purely physical medication on its own can substantially alter or eliminate certain behaviors and "traits". They're all dependent on something, but they're not all highly dependent on the surrounding circumstance like the article suggests laziness is.
    • Causality1 5y ago
      Why wouldn't laziness also be potentially dependent on biology?
      • gchamonlive 5y ago
        That's because eugenics is absolute nonsense and has been debunked time and again.
      • kayodelycaon 5y ago
        There are genetic disorders that can severely affect executive function but that isn’t “lazy”. It just appears to be.
      • themacguffinman 5y ago
• asimjalis 5y ago
  I wish the article provided actionable advice. Mostly it seems to diagnose a problem but then not provide a solution. Except maybe empathy and understanding.
  • tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Perhaps there is no solution. Perhaps there is no problem to solve.
• gorwell 5y ago
  Sounds nice, but sometimes I'm just being lazy.
  • exporectomy 5y ago
    I used to be "lazy" by not working. Then Covid lockdown happened and suddenly everybody else wasn't working either. It truly made me feel better about my own behavior. It's pretty relative.
  • jayd16 5y ago
    I think we've all been there and it really blows the "lack of context" argument out of the water.
• donatj 5y ago
  Yesterday, Sunday I knew I had to move the brush pile in my back yard into the front yard because municipal brush pickup was on Monday. I also knew it was going to be 90°f by about noon and not going to taper off until after dark. I knew perfectly well I should do it in the AM before it got hot. Yet, about 3pm I hauled the brush and got drenched in sweat and honestly felt sick. Why? I was being lazy and didn't want to get out of bed. It's 100% a thing.
  • tommiegannert 5y ago
    The post is just suggesting that you (and the people around you) keep digging through the Whys and don't stop at "I can attribute this to laziness". > The solution, instead, is to look for what is holding the procrastinator back. If anxiety is the major barrier, the procrastinator actually needs to walk away from the computer/book/word document and engage in a relaxing activity. Being branded “lazy” by other people is likely to lead to the exact opposite behavior.
    • donatj 5y ago
      And the article is wrong, plain and simple. Written by someone who is apparently not lazy and can’t comprehend the idea. Just because you can’t fathom something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, that’s a logical fallacy. Being lazy is absolutely a thing, and just a person unreasonably weighting the value of the now over the later. I weighted the value of being in bed right now higher than the value of not moving brush in 90°F weather later, which I then even later regretted. And I will do it again. Why? My value weighting function in my brain is flawed; that’s what it means to be lazy. There is no deeper reason.
• Borrible 5y ago
  Personally I prefer the term 'optimizing short term personal/individual gain/cost functions' over 'lazyness'.
• protomikron 5y ago
  Laziness may indeed not exist, but non-strict evaluation for sure does.
  • titanomachy 5y ago
    It doesn't exist until you need it.
• locallost 5y ago
  Strangely I've noticed recently that I get to stuff a lot more easier then before. For a long time everything felt like a chore, and I could only ever think about forcing myself and it was bloody hard. But a couple weeks ago some things happened that shook me up, so maybe it's easier to e.g. empty the dishwasher than to think about things I don't want to think about. Now I do the e.g. dishwasher in 5 minutes and think -- wait is it done, is there something else there? People that could see me now would think what a hard worker I am, and three weeks or months ago they would've gotten a different impression. So there I think he's right. I think it's still possible to be lazy, by virtue of not caring about accomplishing anything, but I don't know how possible this is.
• bloqs 5y ago
  A psychology professor who doesn't seem to know the literature on psychometrics? This is undergrad level stuff.. see Conscienciousness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
  • loopz 5y ago
    He's talking about other people's superficial judgement, prejudice and biases about others, that do more harm, than help.
• leobg 5y ago
  Too lazy to read the article. (Although, that doesn’t exist.)