8 ms·

America needs to embrace more cars like these and lower speeds in cities. Lower speeds==less safety measures needed. Not only that but less noise, less pollutio

America needs to embrace more cars like these and lower speeds in cities. Lower speeds==less safety measures needed. Not only that but less noise, less pollution, safer for everyone around.

WorldMaker 5y ago
America is trapped in a tragedy of the commons that states stopped regulating vehicle size and marketers capitalized on selling "bigger vehicle size = safer" despite that being a tautology caused by that very tragedy of the commons: bigger vehicle size is less safe to other vehicles on the road (and pedestrians/bicyclists!) therefore to compete for relative safety more people feel the need for bigger vehicle sizes to improve their safety with respect to others' big vehicle purchases. It's gross on so many levels.
- yboris 5y ago
  One of my favorite philosophy papers: Vehicles and Crashes: Why is this Moral Issue Overlooked? by Douglas Husak. Author argues that because of the high crash incompatibility of SUVs, they are immoral - imposing needless harm on others (and based on data, ironically, with on average no benefit to those who drive them -- because of higher rollover risks). https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447 https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447
  - knodi123 5y ago
    The position "it is better to be harmed than to harm, if you have to choose between the two" is certainly worth discussing, but it would be such an uphill battle that Sisyphus would probably prefer to return to his boulder.
    - bscphil 5y ago
      Ironic, given that it's one of the oldest philosophical positions. E.g. Socrates in Plato's Gorgias: "We must either refute this argument and show that it’s not the possession of justice and self-control that makes happy people happy and the possession of badness that makes miserable people miserable, or else, if this is true, we must consider what the consequences are. These consequences are all those previous things, Callicles, the ones about which you asked me whether I was speaking in earnest when I said that a man should be his own accuser, or his son’s or his friend’s, if he’s done anything unjust, and should use oratory for that purpose. ... I deny, Callicles, that being knocked on the jaw unjustly is the most shameful thing, or that having my body or my purse cut is, and I affirm that to knock or cut me or my possessions unjustly is both more shameful and worse, and at the same time that to rob or enslave me or to break into my house or, to sum up, to commit any unjust act at all against me and my possessions is both worse and more shameful for the one who does these unjust acts than it is for me, the one who suffers them."
      - knodi123 5y ago
        I'm picturing a bruised and bloodied mugging victim at the police station filing a report, and a detective reassures him, "Could be worse! Spare a thought for the vastly worse-off mugger, who had to actually do all those horrible things to you!"
        bscphil 5y ago
        The view is a bit more complicated than that, but you gave me a laugh. Thanks!
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  Except there are so many commercial vehicles on the road that actually require substantial size (package delivery, carpenters, etc.), not to mention all the 18-wheel trucks. Given that situation, it makes sense that families would want larger (safer) vehicles. Most of America doesn't live in a 2-person highrise apartment.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    18-wheel trucks require Commercial Driver's Licenses (CDLs) with stricter requirements, enforced regulation, and stricter safety oversight. Originally, so did package delivery vans and trucks in many states. It was deregulated by most states so that CDLs were no longer required for several classes of large trucks and vans, and it is those same deregulations that have allowed many "residential" vehicles to grow in size to fit those older categories that used to be classed solely for commercial vehicles (with stricter licensing standards and safety oversight). The safety problem isn't and never has been commercial vehicles, it has been that America has let the definition of commercial vehicle erode to the point that many Americans believe that exorbitantly sized commercial vehicles make decent residential vehicles.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    > Given that situation, it makes sense that families would want larger (safer) vehicles. This will protect them from the large, dangerous vehicles out there. It starts to look like an arms race quite quickly.
  - el_nahual 5y ago
    Yes, those commercial vehicles are on the road but they don't have to be on the road at the same time most people are on the road. The idea that most Americans live in some sort of farm is actually wrong. Over 80% of Americans live somewhere urban. And yes, trucks, deliveries, etc should not be allowed to drive in urban areas except at night and in the early morning: for traffic and safety. This should be regulated in Manhattan as well as Des Moines, and even in cities like Houston where the interstate is used for local trips. Driving a truck? Take the detour that skips Houston entirely during the day.
  - 5y ago
- wyager 5y ago
  90% of the people I know with big cars use them because they have jobs, hobbies, or interests that require the transportation of materials and equipment that would be difficult or impossible to transport in a small car, or because they live somewhere that requires a vehicle robust against difficult driving conditions. I don’t think “big=safe” is a super popular reason to get a big car, especially given the cost difference vs a commuter car or whatever.
  - gorbachev 5y ago
    You should come and see my kid's school during drop off and pick up. The number of soccer moms driving Escalades and other oversized SUVs in their high heels would heal your misconceptions about large car ownership in the US.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > I don’t think “big=safe” is a super popular reason to get a big car, especially given the cost difference vs a commuter car or whatever. Counter-anecdote: that's exactly the reason given by a lot of people I know who like SUVs, especially. Maybe alongside "it can carry lots of stuff", but sometimes all on its own.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Is it their reason or is it their way of telling you to screw off because it's their money and they do what they want with it? "hurr durr muh safety" is one of the easiest ways to shut down discussion these days.
      - handrous 5y ago
        Nah, they mean it. FWIW (maybe nothing?) I'm pretty sure it's only ever been women who've told me this—but then, men I know all drive trucks if they are into that kind of thing, and I've never heard one name safety as what sold them on trucks. Maybe if I knew men who drove SUVs they'd say the same thing.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
- uselesscynicism 5y ago
  In addition, EPA rules made it impossible to build sedans and wagons with the performance desired by consumers, which is what caused the death of the station wagon and the birth of the SUV, which according to the EPA is a light truck and is subject to different emissions rules. Now everybody with three or more kids is practically required to buy a van or SUV because you can almost never fit three car seats in the backseat of an EPA approved sedan. So families buy larger vehicles, which have the problem described above, and the EPA doesn't even succeed at regulating the market
  - com2kid 5y ago
    > In addition, EPA rules made it impossible to build sedans and wagons with the performance desired by consumers, To elaborate, current CAFE standards have a gap where station wagons used to be, that basically makes it impossible to make a modern station wagon. By declaring SUVs as light trucks, they aren't impacted by the same rules as a station wagon would be. tl;dr light weight high volume cars are literally not legal to make[0] and [1] unless tiny little baby engines are put in which would put these cars down market. I'm hoping moving to EVs resolve this entire issue. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#:~:text=CAFE%20footprint%20requirements%20are,8.7%C2%A0l/100%C2%A0km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy...) [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#:~:text=CAFE%20footprint%20requirements%20are,8.7%C2%A0l/100%C2%A0km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy...)
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      I'm also hoping that EVs encourage a bigger reinvestment in alternative form factors like the station wagon/estate car/shooting brake. So far most of the manufacturers of EVs are sticking to existing truck/SUV trends playing it safe, but now that enough of the major manufacturers are using standardized platforms where they can easily play with the form factor above the "skateboard" core we'll start seeing more EV diversity than ever before sooner rather than later. (VW Group has an EV station wagon Porsche now [a variant of the Taycan EV], and that's probably wildly out of most family's budgets, but if VW Group is playing with that on the MEB at the luxury end, hopefully that means they are already considering how to play with that on the low end as well.)
- bernawil 5y ago
  This applies to mostly any other country in the world as I can't think of anywere where they regulate vehicle sizes. Yet you don't see nearly the same ammount of SUV in the roads. And in fact I think an SUV makes more sense in the third world: road maintenance is generally much worse with potholes everywhere; traffic enforcent much less effective, so speed bump everywhere too; a big truck is probably safer than a small car if you're about to get robbed in the street... the real "tragedy" of the US is people being too rich and things people worry about in other places like gas and financing being so cheap.
kube-system 5y ago
Most US cities currently have highways that go through them, and the majority of people who drive in those cities live in the suburbs. For those living in cities, the public transit is a much better solution nearly in every way, compared to personal transportation devices that evade safety regulations.
eptcyka 5y ago
Instead of more cars, why not optimize for more public transport, bicycles and pedestrians? Cars suck in cities.
NoGravitas 5y ago
Yep. It would be fine to ban them on controlled-access highways, but this would be great for in-town driving.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> America needs to embrace more cars like these and lower speeds in cities. Lower speeds==less safety measures needed. Not only that but less noise, less pollution, safer for everyone around. I don't think these cars are very safe even in, or actually especially in, China. It is just that China tolerates a lot more auto accident related deaths than the USA does.
- wonnage 5y ago
  I took a look at the statistics on Wikipedia and they're pretty staggering... per-capita road accidents are roughly 1.5x the US, but per-vehicle is almost 10x. From a US perspective it would be truly insane to drive one of these on a Chinese highway but you go there and see little three wheeled trucks hauling a dining table zipping alongside 18-wheelers. Truly a different standard.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Ya, the motor trike carrying a mountain of recycling is still a thing in some cities.
wil421 5y ago
We need more light rail options instead of lower speeds. It’s hard to go fast in most city centers anyway.
- onepointsixC 5y ago
  This. The answer to congestion isn't more cars that are smaller and slower, it's better public transit.

America needs to embrace more cars like these and lower speeds in cities. Lower speeds==less safety measures needed. Not only that but less noise, less pollution, safer for everyone around.

WorldMaker 5y ago

America is trapped in a tragedy of the commons that states stopped regulating vehicle size and marketers capitalized on selling "bigger vehicle size = safer" despite that being a tautology caused by that very tragedy of the commons: bigger vehicle size is less safe to other vehicles on the road (and pedestrians/bicyclists!) therefore to compete for relative safety more people feel the need for bigger vehicle sizes to improve their safety with respect to others' big vehicle purchases. It's gross on so many levels.

yboris 5y ago
One of my favorite philosophy papers: Vehicles and Crashes: Why is this Moral Issue Overlooked? by Douglas Husak. Author argues that because of the high crash incompatibility of SUVs, they are immoral - imposing needless harm on others (and based on data, ironically, with on average no benefit to those who drive them -- because of higher rollover risks). https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447 https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447
- knodi123 5y ago
  The position "it is better to be harmed than to harm, if you have to choose between the two" is certainly worth discussing, but it would be such an uphill battle that Sisyphus would probably prefer to return to his boulder.
  - bscphil 5y ago
    Ironic, given that it's one of the oldest philosophical positions. E.g. Socrates in Plato's Gorgias: "We must either refute this argument and show that it’s not the possession of justice and self-control that makes happy people happy and the possession of badness that makes miserable people miserable, or else, if this is true, we must consider what the consequences are. These consequences are all those previous things, Callicles, the ones about which you asked me whether I was speaking in earnest when I said that a man should be his own accuser, or his son’s or his friend’s, if he’s done anything unjust, and should use oratory for that purpose. ... I deny, Callicles, that being knocked on the jaw unjustly is the most shameful thing, or that having my body or my purse cut is, and I affirm that to knock or cut me or my possessions unjustly is both more shameful and worse, and at the same time that to rob or enslave me or to break into my house or, to sum up, to commit any unjust act at all against me and my possessions is both worse and more shameful for the one who does these unjust acts than it is for me, the one who suffers them."
    - knodi123 5y ago
      I'm picturing a bruised and bloodied mugging victim at the police station filing a report, and a detective reassures him, "Could be worse! Spare a thought for the vastly worse-off mugger, who had to actually do all those horrible things to you!"
      - bscphil 5y ago
        The view is a bit more complicated than that, but you gave me a laugh. Thanks!
ARandomerDude 5y ago
Except there are so many commercial vehicles on the road that actually require substantial size (package delivery, carpenters, etc.), not to mention all the 18-wheel trucks. Given that situation, it makes sense that families would want larger (safer) vehicles. Most of America doesn't live in a 2-person highrise apartment.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  18-wheel trucks require Commercial Driver's Licenses (CDLs) with stricter requirements, enforced regulation, and stricter safety oversight. Originally, so did package delivery vans and trucks in many states. It was deregulated by most states so that CDLs were no longer required for several classes of large trucks and vans, and it is those same deregulations that have allowed many "residential" vehicles to grow in size to fit those older categories that used to be classed solely for commercial vehicles (with stricter licensing standards and safety oversight). The safety problem isn't and never has been commercial vehicles, it has been that America has let the definition of commercial vehicle erode to the point that many Americans believe that exorbitantly sized commercial vehicles make decent residential vehicles.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > Given that situation, it makes sense that families would want larger (safer) vehicles. This will protect them from the large, dangerous vehicles out there. It starts to look like an arms race quite quickly.
- el_nahual 5y ago
  Yes, those commercial vehicles are on the road but they don't have to be on the road at the same time most people are on the road. The idea that most Americans live in some sort of farm is actually wrong. Over 80% of Americans live somewhere urban. And yes, trucks, deliveries, etc should not be allowed to drive in urban areas except at night and in the early morning: for traffic and safety. This should be regulated in Manhattan as well as Des Moines, and even in cities like Houston where the interstate is used for local trips. Driving a truck? Take the detour that skips Houston entirely during the day.
- 5y ago
wyager 5y ago
90% of the people I know with big cars use them because they have jobs, hobbies, or interests that require the transportation of materials and equipment that would be difficult or impossible to transport in a small car, or because they live somewhere that requires a vehicle robust against difficult driving conditions. I don’t think “big=safe” is a super popular reason to get a big car, especially given the cost difference vs a commuter car or whatever.
- gorbachev 5y ago
  You should come and see my kid's school during drop off and pick up. The number of soccer moms driving Escalades and other oversized SUVs in their high heels would heal your misconceptions about large car ownership in the US.
- handrous 5y ago
  > I don’t think “big=safe” is a super popular reason to get a big car, especially given the cost difference vs a commuter car or whatever. Counter-anecdote: that's exactly the reason given by a lot of people I know who like SUVs, especially. Maybe alongside "it can carry lots of stuff", but sometimes all on its own.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Is it their reason or is it their way of telling you to screw off because it's their money and they do what they want with it? "hurr durr muh safety" is one of the easiest ways to shut down discussion these days.
    - handrous 5y ago
      Nah, they mean it. FWIW (maybe nothing?) I'm pretty sure it's only ever been women who've told me this—but then, men I know all drive trucks if they are into that kind of thing, and I've never heard one name safety as what sold them on trucks. Maybe if I knew men who drove SUVs they'd say the same thing.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
uselesscynicism 5y ago
In addition, EPA rules made it impossible to build sedans and wagons with the performance desired by consumers, which is what caused the death of the station wagon and the birth of the SUV, which according to the EPA is a light truck and is subject to different emissions rules. Now everybody with three or more kids is practically required to buy a van or SUV because you can almost never fit three car seats in the backseat of an EPA approved sedan. So families buy larger vehicles, which have the problem described above, and the EPA doesn't even succeed at regulating the market
- com2kid 5y ago
  > In addition, EPA rules made it impossible to build sedans and wagons with the performance desired by consumers, To elaborate, current CAFE standards have a gap where station wagons used to be, that basically makes it impossible to make a modern station wagon. By declaring SUVs as light trucks, they aren't impacted by the same rules as a station wagon would be. tl;dr light weight high volume cars are literally not legal to make[0] and [1] unless tiny little baby engines are put in which would put these cars down market. I'm hoping moving to EVs resolve this entire issue. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#:~:text=CAFE%20footprint%20requirements%20are,8.7%C2%A0l/100%C2%A0km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy...) [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy#:~:text=CAFE%20footprint%20requirements%20are,8.7%C2%A0l/100%C2%A0km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy...)
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    I'm also hoping that EVs encourage a bigger reinvestment in alternative form factors like the station wagon/estate car/shooting brake. So far most of the manufacturers of EVs are sticking to existing truck/SUV trends playing it safe, but now that enough of the major manufacturers are using standardized platforms where they can easily play with the form factor above the "skateboard" core we'll start seeing more EV diversity than ever before sooner rather than later. (VW Group has an EV station wagon Porsche now [a variant of the Taycan EV], and that's probably wildly out of most family's budgets, but if VW Group is playing with that on the MEB at the luxury end, hopefully that means they are already considering how to play with that on the low end as well.)
bernawil 5y ago
This applies to mostly any other country in the world as I can't think of anywere where they regulate vehicle sizes. Yet you don't see nearly the same ammount of SUV in the roads. And in fact I think an SUV makes more sense in the third world: road maintenance is generally much worse with potholes everywhere; traffic enforcent much less effective, so speed bump everywhere too; a big truck is probably safer than a small car if you're about to get robbed in the street... the real "tragedy" of the US is people being too rich and things people worry about in other places like gas and financing being so cheap.

kube-system 5y ago

Most US cities currently have highways that go through them, and the majority of people who drive in those cities live in the suburbs. For those living in cities, the public transit is a much better solution nearly in every way, compared to personal transportation devices that evade safety regulations.

eptcyka 5y ago

Instead of more cars, why not optimize for more public transport, bicycles and pedestrians? Cars suck in cities.

NoGravitas 5y ago

Yep. It would be fine to ban them on controlled-access highways, but this would be great for in-town driving.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> America needs to embrace more cars like these and lower speeds in cities. Lower speeds==less safety measures needed. Not only that but less noise, less pollution, safer for everyone around. I don't think these cars are very safe even in, or actually especially in, China. It is just that China tolerates a lot more auto accident related deaths than the USA does.

wonnage 5y ago
I took a look at the statistics on Wikipedia and they're pretty staggering... per-capita road accidents are roughly 1.5x the US, but per-vehicle is almost 10x. From a US perspective it would be truly insane to drive one of these on a Chinese highway but you go there and see little three wheeled trucks hauling a dining table zipping alongside 18-wheelers. Truly a different standard.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Ya, the motor trike carrying a mountain of recycling is still a thing in some cities.

wil421 5y ago

We need more light rail options instead of lower speeds. It’s hard to go fast in most city centers anyway.

onepointsixC 5y ago
This. The answer to congestion isn't more cars that are smaller and slower, it's better public transit.