5 ms·

From the admittedly not much footage of Tesla FSD (1-2 hours total maybe) I’ve watched, it seems to be roughly on par with a student driver who occasionally pan

by oefrha 5y ago

From the admittedly not much footage of Tesla FSD (1-2 hours total maybe) I’ve watched, it seems to be roughly on par with a student driver who occasionally panics for no apparent reason.

CameronNemo 5y ago
Petition to label all Teslas with FSD as student drivers. They need a little LED panel that tells you when the driver is using the AI.
- misiti3780 5y ago
  I agree - but do you think if they did that the haters would stop hating ?
  - refulgentis 5y ago
    Assuming by hater you mean "someone who is scared by Full Self Driving including cars veering into pedestrians", it'd help me: I'm in an urban area and don't have a car, and I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not.
    - misiti3780 5y ago
      "I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not." Sure - which is why I said I agreed there should be some indication of it being in FSD or not, originally.
      - refulgentis 5y ago
        Sure - which is why I'm answering your question regarding how haters will feel under this proposed intervention, that yes, you've agreed with
    - Draiken 5y ago
      The problem is that you could apply that argument for a drunk driver, a distressed driver, a driver without a license, a driver that hasn't slept enough, etc. Any of those could mean a car could randomly turn into the crosswalk. Humans are horrible at assessing risk. We worry about Teslas because it's on the headlines now, but you're infinitely more likely to get ran over by one of the cited examples than a Tesla just by sheer statistics.
      - ragingrobot 5y ago
        Never mind the driver who can't wait the two to five seconds for the pedrestrian to cross, which is probably far more common than the above, and rather intentional. TBH I don't think it's ever crossed my mind whether a Tesla was in FSD or not, even when driving alongside one. As long as it doesn't enter my space, I'm fine. Walking through Manhattan, I'm more worried about the human driver nowadays than the non-human.
    - criley2 5y ago
      Here's my hater take: "Full Self Driving" is an absolutely dangerous and egregious marketing lie. The vehicles are not full self driving and require by law a driver capable of taking over at a moments notice. I do not believe that Tesla's technology will ever achieve "Full self driving" (levels 4 or 5, where a driver isn't required https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicl...), and the labeling of their "conditional automation" system as "full self driving" is an absolute travesty. People do honestly think they have bought a self driving car. The marketing lie absolutely tricks people.
- dylan604 5y ago
  While most people see the student vehicle and give it a wide berth, there are those that see it as a "teachable" moment. We've already seen that asshats that screw with cars labeled with Student Driver just to "give 'em a lesson" are already screwing with self driving cars for the same reason: They're assholes.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Draiken 5y ago
I mean... 5 minutes on /r/IdiotsInCars and it's very easy for me to understand how even with bizarre bugs like this, it's better than people. People say "how could it happen?!" and get angry for a software bug - that can be fixed - and seem to accept how drunk drivers do this (and a lot worse) literally every single day. But since it's a human, that's fine! Edit: wording
- oefrha 5y ago
  Drunk drivers on the road are… “fine”? Not sure where you live.
  - Draiken 5y ago
    Of course it's not fine in that sense. What I mean is that you don't see a headline on news outlets or twitter hashtags trending for every drunk driver fatality or crash that happens. Which for me tells that collectively, we are fine with it. We accept it as ordinary, as crazy as it may be.
    - oefrha 5y ago
      A DUI, in California for instance, means you’re suspended for months (years if you’re a repeat offender). Since it’s basically the same “driver” driving all FSD Teslas, are you arguing that they should be suspended under the same rules for drunken behavior? If so, they will basically be out of commission indefinitely, and we won’t see headlines anymore.
      - Draiken 5y ago
        No, my point is that this is overblown just because it's Tesla and people love drama, so this makes headlines and trending topics. My comparison with drunken drivers is just with the regards to the odd behavior. If you look at a drunk driver (or even someone that fell asleep in the wheel) with a near crash, many times it would resemble this video. But the outrage from the public differs vastly.
aaroninsf 5y ago
...and it is obvious that it will actually ever get more than incrementally technically better, absent AGI. The problem is too hard for existing tools. Good job on the 80% case; let's look for problems for which the 80% case is good enough and back away from unsupportable claims about "just a little more time" bringing FSD in environments defined by anomaly and noise, in which the cost of error is measured in human life and property damage.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
The difference is the student driver will learn within a few more dozen hours and be fit for the road, Tesla no silver lining on the horizon.
- gpm 5y ago
  You have it backwards. With humans driving there is a constant and unending stream of student drivers, because every new human must learn from scratch. There is no silver lining. With self driving it takes longer for the one individual to learn, but the difference is that there is only the one individual, and it need not ever die. The learning is transferable between cars, regressions between generations need not be accepted. The problem of bad driving can finally be solved.
  - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
    That sounds great in theory, but in practice the technology is not there for reliable and demonstrable learning of that type.
    - gpm 5y ago
      Given the number of different people pouring millions to billions of dollars at the problem, I think it's pretty incredible for you to be so certain that that is the case.
      - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
        People are pouring money into the problem because it isn't solved yet, which pretty much matches what I said.
- kaba0 5y ago
  As well as he/she has a professional driver paying close attention to whatever he does. Overseeing something is a really mentally trying thing and “fsd” car drivers will not be able to do that for long times.

by oefrha 5y ago

From the admittedly not much footage of Tesla FSD (1-2 hours total maybe) I’ve watched, it seems to be roughly on par with a student driver who occasionally panics for no apparent reason.

CameronNemo 5y ago

Petition to label all Teslas with FSD as student drivers. They need a little LED panel that tells you when the driver is using the AI.

misiti3780 5y ago
I agree - but do you think if they did that the haters would stop hating ?
- refulgentis 5y ago
  Assuming by hater you mean "someone who is scared by Full Self Driving including cars veering into pedestrians", it'd help me: I'm in an urban area and don't have a car, and I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not.
  - misiti3780 5y ago
    "I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not." Sure - which is why I said I agreed there should be some indication of it being in FSD or not, originally.
    - refulgentis 5y ago
      Sure - which is why I'm answering your question regarding how haters will feel under this proposed intervention, that yes, you've agreed with
  - Draiken 5y ago
    The problem is that you could apply that argument for a drunk driver, a distressed driver, a driver without a license, a driver that hasn't slept enough, etc. Any of those could mean a car could randomly turn into the crosswalk. Humans are horrible at assessing risk. We worry about Teslas because it's on the headlines now, but you're infinitely more likely to get ran over by one of the cited examples than a Tesla just by sheer statistics.
    - ragingrobot 5y ago
      Never mind the driver who can't wait the two to five seconds for the pedrestrian to cross, which is probably far more common than the above, and rather intentional. TBH I don't think it's ever crossed my mind whether a Tesla was in FSD or not, even when driving alongside one. As long as it doesn't enter my space, I'm fine. Walking through Manhattan, I'm more worried about the human driver nowadays than the non-human.
  - criley2 5y ago
    Here's my hater take: "Full Self Driving" is an absolutely dangerous and egregious marketing lie. The vehicles are not full self driving and require by law a driver capable of taking over at a moments notice. I do not believe that Tesla's technology will ever achieve "Full self driving" (levels 4 or 5, where a driver isn't required https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicl...), and the labeling of their "conditional automation" system as "full self driving" is an absolute travesty. People do honestly think they have bought a self driving car. The marketing lie absolutely tricks people.
dylan604 5y ago
While most people see the student vehicle and give it a wide berth, there are those that see it as a "teachable" moment. We've already seen that asshats that screw with cars labeled with Student Driver just to "give 'em a lesson" are already screwing with self driving cars for the same reason: They're assholes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Draiken 5y ago

I mean... 5 minutes on /r/IdiotsInCars and it's very easy for me to understand how even with bizarre bugs like this, it's better than people. People say "how could it happen?!" and get angry for a software bug - that can be fixed - and seem to accept how drunk drivers do this (and a lot worse) literally every single day. But since it's a human, that's fine! Edit: wording

oefrha 5y ago
Drunk drivers on the road are… “fine”? Not sure where you live.
- Draiken 5y ago
  Of course it's not fine in that sense. What I mean is that you don't see a headline on news outlets or twitter hashtags trending for every drunk driver fatality or crash that happens. Which for me tells that collectively, we are fine with it. We accept it as ordinary, as crazy as it may be.
  - oefrha 5y ago
    A DUI, in California for instance, means you’re suspended for months (years if you’re a repeat offender). Since it’s basically the same “driver” driving all FSD Teslas, are you arguing that they should be suspended under the same rules for drunken behavior? If so, they will basically be out of commission indefinitely, and we won’t see headlines anymore.
    - Draiken 5y ago
      No, my point is that this is overblown just because it's Tesla and people love drama, so this makes headlines and trending topics. My comparison with drunken drivers is just with the regards to the odd behavior. If you look at a drunk driver (or even someone that fell asleep in the wheel) with a near crash, many times it would resemble this video. But the outrage from the public differs vastly.

aaroninsf 5y ago

...and it is obvious that it will actually ever get more than incrementally technically better, absent AGI. The problem is too hard for existing tools. Good job on the 80% case; let's look for problems for which the 80% case is good enough and back away from unsupportable claims about "just a little more time" bringing FSD in environments defined by anomaly and noise, in which the cost of error is measured in human life and property damage.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

The difference is the student driver will learn within a few more dozen hours and be fit for the road, Tesla no silver lining on the horizon.

gpm 5y ago
You have it backwards. With humans driving there is a constant and unending stream of student drivers, because every new human must learn from scratch. There is no silver lining. With self driving it takes longer for the one individual to learn, but the difference is that there is only the one individual, and it need not ever die. The learning is transferable between cars, regressions between generations need not be accepted. The problem of bad driving can finally be solved.
- FartyMcFarter 5y ago
  That sounds great in theory, but in practice the technology is not there for reliable and demonstrable learning of that type.
  - gpm 5y ago
    Given the number of different people pouring millions to billions of dollars at the problem, I think it's pretty incredible for you to be so certain that that is the case.
    - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
      People are pouring money into the problem because it isn't solved yet, which pretty much matches what I said.
kaba0 5y ago
As well as he/she has a professional driver paying close attention to whatever he does. Overseeing something is a really mentally trying thing and “fsd” car drivers will not be able to do that for long times.