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I worked at a company that had unlimted PTO when suddenly one day they revoked the policy because they said some people were abusing it. The new policy was stil

I worked at a company that had unlimted PTO when suddenly one day they revoked the policy because they said some people were abusing it. The new policy was still very generous (6 weeks PTO per year) so no one complained. Fast forward a year later and we were hearing things from executives and managers like, "you know you don't have to use all you're PTO, right?". I'd ask, oh, it will rollover to next year? The reply: "No, it won't. But that's really the wrong way to think about it." So it turns out people were taking much more time off now than when PTO was unlimited. They started denying request and making up trivial rules, like 2/3 of your team must be available at any time (regardless of the team size), oh, and those rules weren't in the official policy. Good luck trying to get specifics in writing. Eventually they changed back to an unlimited policy but secretly told managers they should start denying requests after x number of days have been used. I think it was five weeks, which again is still generous but it bothers me because the intent is to hide that number in hopes that people will use less. I also get no tracking for how many days I've already taken unless I go through my requests and count the approved ones myself. The unlimited policy is definitely a scam at many companies. Most of my team has been denied requests for reasons that don't exist in the written policy, like, "you recently had PTO already." Honestly I'd rather have a policy that only allowed 3 or 4 weeks with a minimum mandatory that each employee is required to take at least two weeks off per year.

MattGaiser 5y ago
It is like unlimited benefits. As soon as you put limits on it, some people start to look at "using them up."
- ethbr0 5y ago
  The counterpoint is also valid: don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. The best places I've worked have had PTO policies, no rollover (but flexibility for longer trips), and (critically) managers who would gripe at you at the end of the year if you didn't use your PTO. Expectations were clear, everyone was on an equal playing field, and PTO was sized to something the company could afford everyone making use of.
  - aviau 5y ago
    > don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. I am ambivalent on this. Some benefits are a bit like insurance, I don't mind not using them fully but I am glad its available when I need it. The big issue is that it has to be available when I need it and it can't just be a scam.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      I think that's where policy + manager discretion for overages is the better approach. Your manager should know if you and your team are killing it. "Unlimited PTO" just sounds like make believe land. And if it's not an actual, usable, guaranteed policy that doesn't negatively impact your career... then why are we deluding ourselves and creating a policy vs culture mismatch?
    - susiecambria 5y ago
      Agree completely. Years ago, when I was first married (like several months after getting married), my husband needed surgery. The surgeon thought it might be pancreatic cancer. The board gave me all the time I needed, no questions. And, the day of the surgery, a colleague from work spent the day at the hospital with me. A free day from the board and director. Now it's true that I worked every day husband was in the hospital - I mean, he was sleeping most of the time so why not work? But they knew I would work since that's what I did. I delivered for years. I was incredibly grateful they allowed me to take the time. Am still grateful. But I was also in a position where I could take an unpaid leave or quit. Neither optimal, but family comes first. Would the organization have done the same for other staff? I don't think so. I had been there the longest and busted my ass for them, loving the work every single day.
      - ethbr0 5y ago
        Coincidentally, I quit a consulting job that wouldn't give me (unpaid) time off to be with my mother through surgery for pancreatic cancer (positive outcome, so far). Had saved enough that finances permitted, and I still feel great about the decision.
- billti 5y ago
  Exactly. I haven't seen it as much now I'm in the U.S., but when I worked in Australia, it was very common for your 2 weeks of paid sick leave to be seen as "vacation". Most people who had sick leave left come December, were suddenly sick for a few days before the end of the year.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
    The sickie is an Australian tradition.
  - jlawer 5y ago
    Depends on your role / age / situation. When I was younger and working more junior roles and moving from role to role every year or 2 (generally headhunted) there was a use it or loose it mentality. You wouldn’t take the day off the moment you had a sniffle / didn’t feel 100%. However once your older, have kids and are at the role for more then a few years, that sick leave is often “banked” for when the kids come down with whatever is going around the schoolyard this week
- fatnoah 5y ago
  Having gone from limited PTO to unlimited really helped me realize that I'm a hoarder. When PTO is limited, I rarely take it, but when I had unlimited I was much more liberal about actually using it. I went from average 1-2 weeks per year to 5-6, mostly by taking random days here and there, ducking out early to have a fun afternoon with the kiddo, etc.
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    I don't understand unlimited PTO. I mean, why not just take every Friday off, then? There is almost never a point at where where there's no work to be done; it's never going to be a case of "as long as you get your work done, you can take time off"... because there's no such thing as "done", just "prioritized".
    - mattnewton 5y ago
      If you can be competitive with peers and get enough done to continue progressing in your career with every Friday off, why not? The limit for me has always been my own productivity (and availability for meetings), and I think at a certain role level it's a reasonable expectation that you be measured in outcomes and not time spent at desk.
    - fatnoah 5y ago
      There are still expectations on the amount or level of work to be done. If you're meeting those and not blocking others, there's no reason one couldn't take more time off. It's certainly a tricky thing to sort out, though. As you noted, "abuse" is possible, but defining what constitutes abuse is nearly impossible.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    You call it "hoarder", I'd call it "low risk tolerance". I'm sort of the same. I never had unlimited PTO, but I tend to save my time off for cases where I actually need it. Saved my bacon a bunch of times, before I started working remotely, with teams/companies that don't mind me taking off half a day to run some important errands, as long as my total work hours add up to the correct number each month.
- paul_f 5y ago
  Reminds me of the story in Freaknomics of a Daycare that instituted a late fee. After the fee was instituted, the number of parents being late went up!
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Sounds like a situation where you go from feeling like an asshole to the daycare employees to utilizing service that you paid for.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      That is exactly the conclusion they drew.
AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
Right, PTO is compensation. I always make sure I end the year with a zero PTO balance (no rollover) and I make sure that I encourage my employees to do the same.
- chrisdhal 5y ago
  Depending on the company, that's not great advice. At my company you cannot take PTO until you accrue it, so if you end the year with 0, then you can't take anything for a while until you accumulate enough time.
  - AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
    If there's no rollover (as I indicated is the case at my workplace) then you'll start the year wit ha zero balance no matter what. And we don't have that rule. Just don't end the year with a negative balance.
albertgoeswoof 5y ago
The trick is to negotiate unlimited compensation along with unlimited PTO. Oh wait
- adrianmonk 5y ago
  Just give me a credit card. I will spend money on things I want, as long as it's within reason. Such a workable system!
megablast 5y ago
> like 2/3 of your team must be available at any time (regardless of the team size), You don’t think this is a reasonable rule??
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- snarf21 5y ago
  I think the issue is that it was used as an excuse to deny vacation. It could also lead to everyone being put on teams of 2. Great, now no one can take a vacation by definition.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Here is the problem with these policies. What happens when just 1 person or 2 people have key knowledge? My company has/had (the people I know with it left) this problem. Things hinged on one person and a team of effectively 1 or even 2 can never go on vacation. Now, obviously this should be considered a problem too but other problems can make the 2/3 part unworkable.
- reificator 5y ago
  Not if your team size is two, for example.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  No, because for some reason a lot of people take a lot of time off during summer.
- Monory 5y ago
  My current team is 2 people. Should we never take a break?
snarf21 5y ago
Right, it seems relatively simple to calculate someone's salary to also include additional 5 weeks of pay per year so that if you have to pay it out it was already budgeted. Alternatively, you could do it in such a way that every two weeks you get paid for 11 days worth of work and all time off is unpaid. Essentially you are getting 26 paid vacation days and you can use them or keep the extra money. It seems like a win-win. Known costs that are over time and extra money for employees or extra time off for employees.
- dopidopHN 5y ago
  I always been baffle by that. My last job switch, 6 month ago, I explicitly asked to apply that calculation on my shinny new yearly salary. To go from 2 weeks off to say.. 5. ( I really means 6 … ) I got 2.5 and a lesson on budgeted HR cost and resource availability. At least there was a response. The funnier is : I had to care for a family member too. I took 3 weeks already and they just routinely approved the unpay part of it.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Part of the problem is that California doesn't let companies have use it or lose it policies. Companies need to pay out unused at the end of the year. And employees don't like accrual cap policies (i.e. stop earning after you hit some figure) that don't let them bank some amount over their annual accrual.
  - sidlls 5y ago
    The problem is that unlimited PTO is a loophole that companies use to avoid paying earned benefits. California’s regulations on this are poor because they don’t account for this, not because they’re a bad idea.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
OJFord 5y ago
> So it turns out people were taking much more time off now than when PTO was unlimited. Is that surprising? I've had 'unlimited' (there must be a better way of saying that: obviously it has 'fair usage') for a couple of years, not counting but I'm pretty sure I've taken less than statutory. Previous place was seven days over statutory and up to five would roll; fewer than statutory requirement taken would be paid in lieu (by law), obviously I took enough to use it all or roll some over - why let a couple of days go to waste? But when there's just no numbers on anything... if I don't have something to do I don't take it. (That's probably unrelatable for anyone with children, or a spouse who is taking holiday, that makes sense and I'm not knocking it!)
- randomswede 5y ago
  "Not explicitly stated"?
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Well that's a slightly pessimistic angle on it. Thinking about it my offer letter might've said something more like 'you decide', which is a bit more correct than 'unlimited' without the ominous threat of an undisclosed limit. Perhaps I should have actually 'decided' and written something down if only for myself!
    - randomswede 5y ago
      I find "unlimited PTO" enough of a warning signal that I think "not explicitly stated" is an excellent description of what it gives you. And, yes, at least one former workplace switched us from "25 days, plus Bank Holidays" to "unlimited PTO". With pretty much everyone in my team complaining that we preferred an explicit limit than a nebulous non-explicit managerial capriciousness.
bedhead 5y ago
I used to work at a company that, like everyone else, tracked PTO days. But I'm kind of a pain in the ass so I never bothered, plus, I worked ridiculously hard and came in at least one day every weekend and sometimes both Sat and Sun (plus most nights in general). Anyway, the head of HR asked me to start putting my PTO days in the system and I said sure, just let me know where I can submit the overtime slips. They got the point...it helped that I was good at my job. I've always liked the "treat people like adults" policy with unlimited PTO and no formal tracking. If someone can't manage PTO and is abusive of it, my guess is they either might not be a great hire anyway, and if they are, what are you accomplishing by bothering them?
- angrais 5y ago
  I'm quite confused at your response. Why are you so proud to give a company all your time, including nights and weekends, and for no additional costs? Then when asked to take PTO you asked for money instead of holiday, despite working nights and weekends? wat
  - bedhead 5y ago
    I did well and was promoted and given raises and bonuses - that was kinda the point of working hard, not to get more days off. I just didn't like people making PTO a thing, it struck me as juvenile. I used plenty of PTO days, one summer I took every Friday off, but I didn't like the idea of being tracked like I was a child. My simple thought was if people do a good job, who cares about PTO tracking.
    - angrais 5y ago
      I see. That's much clearer, thanks. Although the point of documenting PTO is both useful for you (to quantify days off as you may be taking much less than you thought!) and the company (was behead meant to be in work today?! What if there's a fire alarm and headcount is needed?) Congrats on the promotion and raises! I agree that ideally working hard should lead to those outcomes.
  - cynix 5y ago
saalweachter 5y ago
Honestly as a long-tenured employee, I'd be more happy with a modest, capped N weeks / year, with an explicit XX week sabbatical every M years. It's difficult to get that "hard reset" you need every once in a while with a 1-2 week vacation [which to be fair, is already fairly privileged], and even if you have 4-5 weeks / year ["generous by US standards"] it can be hard to take more than a couple of weeks at once because you need to save a week or so for Christmas, a few days for your anniversary, a couple of days for you or your spouse's birthday, three days to close out Thanksgiving, etc etc.
- quantified 5y ago
  > 1-2 week vacation [which to be fair, is already fairly privileged] Sucks not to be German. 6 weeks a year that gets used is pretty humane.
  - aecay 5y ago
    The UK also gives people 6ish weeks (5 weeks to take when you want, plus 8 fixed bank holidays). I grew up in the US and am American more than I am anything else. I've lived in the UK for a relatively short time (6 years, under 20% of my life) -- but that's been my entire professional career. It's cultural differences like this that lead me to believe that America will never feel like "home" again -- I now can't imagine living somewhere where 6 weeks of vacation time seems like it's far outside the norm.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      You might have misunderstood the 6 weeks. That's 6 weeks actual vacation. Bank holidays (different depending on the federal state you're in but minimum is 9 - in Hesse) are on top of that. To be fair 30 days PTO is simply the standard in tech jobs. Minimum by law is 21, which some other industries do stick to.
      - lmm 5y ago
        5 weeks is 25 days and not at all uncommon in tech jobs, sadly.
darthvoldemort 5y ago
I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. When I worked at Uber engineering which had unlimited PTO, I took between 6-8 weeks of PTO every year. Most years was at least 6, but one year I took 8. No one batted an eye. I think it all depends on company culture or maybe team culture. I would never work for a company that denied me a PTO day, even if it was a single day. I would never irresponsibly take PTO but I would also make sure that I took at least 4 weeks off per year no matter what. The secret is taking 1 week off per quarter, and then another 2 weeks off during Christmas. That automatically brings you up to 6 weeks. But make no mistake, unlimited vacation is a way to keep PTO off the books as a liability. In California you cannot lose PTO that you have accrued. They can stop accrual however once you reach a certain level. Once you max out on accrual, you are giving the company money, which is stupid so it's important to consistently take PTO.
- ahtihn 5y ago
  > one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. I don't understand why you're mad at someone for using a benefit he's entitled to? Unlimited PTO means you should never have to work if you don't want to. Otherwise it's not unlimited. If there's a limit just state it upfront.
  - tppiotrowski 5y ago
    "In many organizations, there is an unhealthy emphasis on process and not much freedom. These organizations didn’t start that way, but the python of process squeezed harder every time something went wrong. Specifically, many organizations have freedom and responsibility when they are small. Everyone knows each other, and everyone picks up the trash. As they grow, however, the business gets more complex, and sometimes the average talent and passion level goes down. As the informal, smooth-running organization starts to break down, pockets of chaos emerge, and the general outcry is to “grow up” and add traditional management and process to reduce the chaos. As rules and procedures proliferate, the value system evolves into rule following (i.e. that is how you get rewarded). If this standard management approach is done well, then the company becomes very efficient at its business model — the system is dummy-proofed, and creative thinkers are told to stop questioning the status quo. This kind of organization is very specialized and well adapted to its business model. Eventually, however, over 10 to 100 years, the business model inevitably has to change, and most of these companies are unable to adapt." [1] [1] https://jobs.netflix.com/culture https://jobs.netflix.com/culture
tiffanyh 5y ago
Companies like "unlimited" PTO because it doesn't put a liability on their books (e.g. 6 weeks of PTO x N number of employees amounts to a large liability). What companies doesn't like though is when you put restrictions on it. What I've seen as a middle ground is to have unlimited PTO but if you take more than 3 consecutive weeks off, it must convert to a leave of absence.
- sithlord 5y ago
  so, the middle ground is, "unlimited" is not, at all, unlimited.
- noxvilleza 5y ago
  I like the word "liability" you used here, because in Germany (where I've worked for the last ~5.5 years) there is another perspective of 'liability': an employer has to ensure that their employees take their vacation and adequately rest, else they expose themselves to legal liability. This isn't just about vacation - but also rests during each working day (I think it's 30 mins for < 9 hour workdays), and between working days (at least 11 hours between the end of day X and the start of day X+1).
  - dorgo 5y ago
    I was travelling by bus and we got delayed. The bus stopped 15 minutes before reaching the destination because the bus driver had to take his 30 min rest. The rules are pretty strict especially for drivers.
xtracto 5y ago
I was an executive manager at 2 different startups that originally had "unlimited" PTO. In both of cases it felt wrong to me: The reality is that PTO is never unlimited. Like, if it was unlimited, someone could come to me and ask for 40 days of PTO and I'd have to tell them yeah. Or what about taking every Friday off? The result was that, lazy/low-performing people would take the most PTO while high performing more dedicated people would sometimes NOT take 1 day in a year (I had to remind/push them to take PTO at the end of the year for their own sainity!!). Personally, I prefer companies that tell me "25 days of PTO" or 20 or 30 or whatever. That way you everyone including the managers know that every employee WILL be out of the office that time, and it becomes a RIGHT of the employee instead of a charity of the manager. Ultimately, in these two startups changed from "unlimited" to something between 2 and 4 weeks of PTO per person.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  I'm a contractor, and I do pretty well. I bill by the day or by the hour. Client's choice. I even round down to the nearest even hour each day so I don't ever have to have that icky feeling of "did I really bill them right this week?" which would just distract me. When I work 14 hours in a row, that's what I bill. If I'm in the zone I push it till I fall over. It's worth it for the client. If I'm having an off day, I go home early and bill 4 or 6 hours. If I'm billing by the day, I just bill by the day. Whether it's 14 hours of working or 4, it evens out and if I'm unsure, I'll bill half a day. The important part is that the work gets done. And if I work a Saturday, you bet it's billed. Now, why do I say all of this? Because when it comes to time off I vastly prefer my situation. Sick for months? I'm not worrying about whether my PTO qualifies or whatever. I just don't get paid. This has happened recently and when I was healthy again my clients were happy I was able to help again. This weird sorta dance around time off (sick days, PTO, government holidays, dealing with a manager under pressure for the quarter, etc) makes a bit of sense for the working poor, but I don't understand why so many software developers bother. Just bill what you work and if you want a day, week, or month off take it. I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
darekkay 5y ago
> Honestly I'd rather have a policy that only allowed 3 or 4 weeks with a minimum mandatory that each employee is required to take at least two weeks off per year. In Germany, your idea is the law. You get at least 5 weeks of vacation per year and you have to take at least 2 continous weeks off.
- merb 5y ago
  nope in germany the law is 24 work days and if you have more than 12 days off per year it's preferably! advised to allow 12 or work days contiguously (but it's not a hard requirement it only comes into play if an employee wants to take it like that) (people below 18 have different rules) also the employer is required to tell if days off will decay and force them to take them. and work rules are always in favor of the employee so it can be extended but never reduced in a contract.
  - darekkay 5y ago
    Yeah, 24 work days, which is roughly 5 weeks (with weekends) . But the other part is not fully correct. Yes, the law is pro-employee, and you have the _right_ to take 2 weeks of continous vacation (12 free days). But you are also _required_ to do so when possible: > Kann der Urlaub aus diesen Gründen nicht zusammenhängend gewährt werden, und hat der Arbeitnehmer Anspruch auf Urlaub von mehr als zwölf Werktagen, so muß einer der Urlaubsteile mindestens zwölf aufeinanderfolgende Werktage umfassen. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__7.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__7.html I was really surprised when I first learned from my manager that it's a two-way law (right and obligation). But then again it is really a pro-employee law, basically forcing you to rest from your work.
mlboss 5y ago
In California PTO is considered part of salary. You either take the vacation or else company will pay you the vacation days or all your days will be rolled over to next year. Thats why most of the companies in Bay Area have unlimited PTO to bypass this law.
- kstrauser 5y ago
  CA allows employers to put a cap on accrued vacation. See https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Vacation.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Vacation.htm > Q. My employer's vacation policy provides that once an employee earns 200 hours of vacation, no more vacation may be earned (accrued) until the vacation balance falls below that level. Is this legal? > A. Yes, [and a bunch of examples] They're only required to cash out your vacation at the end of your employment, and rolling over vacation isn't really a thing because you accrue it incrementally with each paycheck. See "Q. How is vacation earned?" in that link for more info.
kstrauser 5y ago
My employer noticed that people weren't taking enough PTO, even with an unlimited PTO policy, so made new minimum PTO requirements. Each employee is required to take at least 2 days off per quarter and at least 2 weeks per year. People have actually started using it.
- reginold 5y ago
  Nice, this seems like the best way to do it. Fight workaholism, threatens the long term success of the business. The problem is without other changes you likely incentivize people to take "PTO" but still work.
  - kstrauser 5y ago
    I've made it a personal goal to lead by example on this. Coworker: I'll be out of office for my friend's wedding next week, but I'll check in sometimes to make sure everything's OK. Me: Oh no you won't! Go have fun and stay away. We'll be fine for a few days. Chalk it up to enlightened self interest if you want. When it's my turn to be on vacation, I don't want to feel obligated to check in. Therefore, I don't let the people who report to me do it, either.
- foobar1962 5y ago
  A company I worked for required everybody to attend anti-corruption sessions (and later made it part of the induction process). A fun fact is that a reliable indicator of corrupt behaviour is never taking time off. If you're cooking books you don't want to let anybody else looking at them.
  - randomswede 5y ago
    This is probably why the UK banking industry requires everyone to have at least one unbroken 2-week vacation every year.
  - kstrauser 5y ago
    Huh, that's interesting and wouldn't have occurred to me. Even without that, there's value in testing the "bus factor" of critical roles. So, Jane wants to go on vacation and everyone's panicking because work can't get done without her around? It's much better to find that out now than when Jane switches jobs.
shoto_io 5y ago
I think unlimited PTO is an absurd policy to begin with. Why would you allow that? If people take a reasonable amount of days, then why not just have a generous policy like 6 weeks. If some people abuse how are you going to deal with them? Fire them? No, because you had the unlimited policy...
itronitron 5y ago
Accrued PTO can become a major liability for companies as it is wages that must be paid out at some point in the future. That is probably the main/only reason that companies offer 'unlimited' PTO since it doesn't carry over at year end and zeroes out when an employee leaves the company.
- hotsauceror 5y ago
  I worked at a place that, until a few years ago, allowed unlimited PTO rollover. You were allowed x days a year on a sliding scale that increased with tenure, but you could roll over all of it if you chose. This was also the kind of shop where some folks had been working there for 20 years, and had worked their way up from the shop floor to upper management. There were people that retired there with 2000-3000 hours of PTO banked, which of course paid out at their current rate. The were doing everything they could to switch peeps to a capped rollover plan.
  - itronitron 5y ago
    Another technique that is employed to reduce the $ value of accrued PTO hours of lifers is the 'donate PTO feel-good' plan where people can donate PTO hours to colleagues that are on medical leave and running out of PTO hours. Since the people with massive PTO accruals are usually upper management (who are 'always working' as they never have to clock in and out) and the recipients are not, the company gets to pay out the PTO hour at a much lower wage.
    - hotsauceror 5y ago
      Yes, they introduced that too, after one of the larger natural disasters took a few regional stores and offices offline for a while. It hadn’t occurred to me that this was the real reason but you’re exactly right. Tooth-and-nail capitalist focus on reducing expenses while couched in the language of we’re-all-in-this-together virtue. It wears on the soul to carry the necessary cynicism of modern life with us.
1024core 5y ago
> The unlimited policy is definitely a scam at many companies. It is so they don't have to pay you for your unused vacation when you leave. It's a financial trick.
- mind-blight 5y ago
  Yeah, it makes their books look better as well. No PTO in the liabilities column
Vadoff 5y ago
At FAANG the PTOs roll over (but there's a maximum cap, usually 1 full year of saving PTOs) + when you leave the company they convert to cash based off your hourly salary.
- lbotos 5y ago
  There was a great money stuff by Matt Levine where he talked about bankers doing vacation arb, where they would not take any vacation early, work through a few promotions, and then get paid out the vacation when they left at the higher hourly rate.
balfirevic 5y ago
> Fast forward a year later and we were hearing things from executives and managers like, "you know you don't have to use all you're PTO, right?". Funny, they might as well suggest that you don't have to take entire salary you agreed on.
akudha 5y ago
My first job had advertised flexible work timings - you can come and go as you like, as long as you put in 8 hours. Once I joined, I was told flexi-time means you can come anytime before 9 am and leave anytime after 6 pm. lol
xiaodai 5y ago
I think unlimited PTO policies only make sense with a minimum. The minimum in Australian law is 4 weeks. When I worked in Singapore I also got 4 weeks even though the labor law in Singapore technically only mandates 4 weeks. When I work with unlimited PTO firms I will just make my intention clear from the start which is to take 4 weeks. Plus the two weeks of sick leave I am entitled to if I get sick. So max I use 6 weeks. But my sick leave accrues. LIke when I left a company I had 6 weeks of sick leave left unused and not paid, which is fine.
Aeolun 5y ago
I don’t like Japan’s default number of days off, but I do like their policy, which is that it is up to the employee when they take time off. The only situation in which a manager could reject it is if it would materially affect the company. In larger companies that’s obviously never the case for any individual person. Of course, that’s not quite how people use it, but the law as written is very nice.
jordan801 5y ago
Every time I see a job listing with Unlimited PTO, theres always some accompanying verbiage that makes it sound a lot like that unlimited PTO will be unavailable.
steveBK123 5y ago
I assumed unlimited PTO was BS and then I got a job that offered it and confirmed. In my industry/level 4-5 weeks PTO is pretty standard, with maybe 1 week allowed to carryover to say Q1 or maybe Q2 of following year. I almost certainly take slightly less average PTO now with "unlimited" than when I simply had that 4-5 week allotment. With a fixed allotment it is an entitlement you feel free to use. With unlimited managers get into psychological games of trying to shame you out of taking it. Even if you are strong and don't give in, many of your team isn't. A lot of studies have shown "unlimited PTO" is actually used less than the standard allotment for the industry/level studied. I certainly have to wrangle almost every request. Very few people take 2 solid weeks consecutive either.
Consultant32452 5y ago
I worked at a bigco that implemented 12 weeks of maternity/paternity leave. A good friend was the first person to take paternity leave, he helped his wife with the new baby and their 3 other children. His director was furious that he took the paternity leave. He started getting bad reviews and was sandbagged when he tried to switch departments. After he left the bigco, another director told him why he got the treatment he did.
wraptile 5y ago
My last workplace had "unlimited vacation" policy which in reality was a no-vacation policy. Everyone was constantly stressed and on the edge of burning out - would not recommend.
jcrites 5y ago
My company has unlimited PTO for being sick. If sick for more than 3 days (consecutively or probably within some time) you are required to provide documentation to HR of the sickness. A (young, vaccinated) colleague caught COVID and was out for weeks, with multiple urgent care and one ER visit (quickly discharged; urgent care thought he might have had a stroke). As far as I can tell he’s had no problems with the company after providing the medical evidence that he was, in fact, sick during that time. OP’s story sounds terrible and the company completely toxic. I don’t defend it at all. However, in the US, nationally taking time off to care to others is not what paid sick leave is typically intended for. (In Washington State, where I live, the Family Care Act allows employees to use any form of paid leave provided by their employer to care for sick family [1]; I don’t know how many states have passed a similar laws.) Taking leave to care for a sick family member is typically a different kind of leave. In the US, the Family and Medical Leave Act (known as FMLA) entitles eligible employees to 3 months per year to, among other things, care for a seriously ill spouse, or treat a serious illness of their own. FMLA leave is completely unpaid but your job is protected during and after that time, and there’s insurance you can buy to maintain your income when on FMLA. It is illegal for an employer to deny a request for FMLA if you are eligible for it, or to retaliate for taking it [2]. If you are eligible for FMLA and request it or are retaliated against by termination, that sounds like a lawsuit that would be easy to win, as well as getting the company in trouble with the Department of Labor. But who would want to work at a company with such toxic behavior from management and HR? I’m glad this was exposed, assuming that it’s true. (You never know who is lying and has a hidden agenda or axe to grind that they are not disclosing.) Good companies offer paid leave for the same activities that FMLA requires unpaid leave, such as Amazon’s 6 months of paid leave for birth mothers and 3 for other new parents. My current employer is offering 30 days of paid leave for taking care of family members who have serious illnesses like COVID and I’m confident based on what I’ve seen so far that they’ll honor it. There’s no “unlimited vacation” at Facebook or Amazon and I’m glad for that. My management chains at both companies have always encouraged taking vacation, and set an example by doing it themselves. Facebook even allows you to have a negative vacation balance, and I haven’t seen people need permission for taking their vacation at either company, though it would probably be wise to do so if you were playing an important role in a vital company activity that would be happening during your vacation (such as the launch of a major product you worked on, or periodic performance reviews if you’re a manager or have an important role in them). I typically entered my vacation into the system after taking it at Amazon, and would let my manager/peers know only if I was planning to be gone and unreachable for an extended period. (At Facebook there’s a good system for notifying people who want to/need to know when you will be out of the office, which also sets up the equivalent of out of office emails for their predominant form of internal communication, which is via Workplace.com (basically Facebook for Work, and an overall excellent product that I would recommend [3]); so at FB I’d enter it in advance because of those integrations, but unless I was performing a crucial job function at a crucial time, I wouldn’t expect to need to ask for permission, so much as notify my manager of my plans. During performance or promotion review committees for employees I’ve participated in, we always tried to adjust fairly for accomplishments per day of work vs. expectations and others, to avoid penalizing people who take full vacation or leave. It’s human nature to want to give a better performance rating to someone who worked hard for a year with minimal vacation, vs. someone who was on leave for half the year and also took vacation, thus having fewer accomplishments total; but the performance committees I’ve seen and participated in always tried to be fair and measure performance adjusted for time worked, and if anything erred toward being generous toward those who had been on long leaves. > I'd rather have a policy that only allowed 3 or 4 weeks with a minimum mandatory that each employee is required to take at least two weeks off per year. As a person who was once young, very ambitious, and had no responsibilities or dependents, I would be opposed to requiring that people take so much vacation. When I entered the industry, I wanted to work hard, build things, build a reputation, progress in my career, learn new things, and earn achievements (including one that got me an award and handshake from Jeff Bezos, back when he was CEO at Amazon); I didn’t want to or need to take vacation, and would have preferred higher pay instead. College was largely a 4 year vacation already, except for a few very challenging 400 level CS courses, and during which I had taken several real international vacations with my family. After graduation I was ready to work hard and build my career. The company provided holidays plus an extra day or two were sufficient for me. What I do wish is that companies were required to pay employees for any paid time off that is offered but not used, as they are required to do when you leave the company, but ironically not if you stay. (By not used I mean such as due to maximum vacation balances or yearly vacation balance resets, as Amazon used to do). Any vacation that would otherwise accrue as vacation balance but doesn’t, due to maximums, should be obliged to be paid as a proportional amount of compensation to the employee; the same if a vacation balance is reset. I am older now and have responsibilities for people besides myself, and I am aware of the risk of working too hard and burning yourself out, which is why I am glad to have always worked in environments where taking vacation has been encouraged. But for people with few responsibilities that love their job and want to progress in their career as fast as they are able, I do not think those people would be happy with vacation being forced on them. I wouldn’t have been. I do wish that employers were required to compensate employees for any PTO that is offered but not used though. I can understand why some people would not want the law to require this, since it might encourage people to overwork themselves - but we are all adults and some people may be in a situation where they need more money more than they need vacation time; it should be their choice in my opinion. [1] https://www.lni.wa.gov/agency/outreach/paid-leave-under-the-washington-family-care-act https://www.lni.wa.gov/agency/outreach/paid-leave-under-the-... [2] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protections https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec... [3] I don’t know if it has the same degree of integration via bots that Slack has, however, so if that’s important to your workflow then you may want to scrutinize this aspect when evaluating the product; but the capability for them exists and is used extensively internally.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Sounds like that company has (had?) a serious management culture problem. Without giving anything away, was it a large well-known company, a large obscure company, a small well-known company, etc.? Curious about what kind of company creates such an environment.
dbbk 5y ago
It's a candidates' market right now, especially for developers. If my holiday got denied for a trivial reason (or no reason) I would just walk out the door.
achenatx 5y ago
As an employee at a dot com I despised unlimited PTO. I would rarely take PTO, working through all major holidays etc while others took months off. The hardest working most dedicated people will get punished by an unlimited PTO policy. As an employer I offer 20 days/year base +1 day for each year of service. Our official policy is to only allow 10 days to roll over to encourage people to take vacation. We monitor people's vacation and work with them to schedule time off. The hardest working most dedicated people dont realize they need time off so we make them take the time off.
taylodl 5y ago
This is exactly why I won't work at a place with unlimited PTO. Sounds great in theory, but in practice theory and practice aren't the same!
Handytinge 5y ago
American overcorrection is bizare. Years ago I recall hearing regularly that many Americans had no annual leave at all, or the ones who did would get fired if they took it. Now it's the other extreme of unlimited, paid time off? Just have 4 weeks a year of rolling annual leave and be done with it! These absurd extremes serve nobody.

MattGaiser 5y ago

It is like unlimited benefits. As soon as you put limits on it, some people start to look at "using them up."

ethbr0 5y ago
The counterpoint is also valid: don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. The best places I've worked have had PTO policies, no rollover (but flexibility for longer trips), and (critically) managers who would gripe at you at the end of the year if you didn't use your PTO. Expectations were clear, everyone was on an equal playing field, and PTO was sized to something the company could afford everyone making use of.
- aviau 5y ago
  > don't have policies which, if used, would be untenable to the company. I am ambivalent on this. Some benefits are a bit like insurance, I don't mind not using them fully but I am glad its available when I need it. The big issue is that it has to be available when I need it and it can't just be a scam.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    I think that's where policy + manager discretion for overages is the better approach. Your manager should know if you and your team are killing it. "Unlimited PTO" just sounds like make believe land. And if it's not an actual, usable, guaranteed policy that doesn't negatively impact your career... then why are we deluding ourselves and creating a policy vs culture mismatch?
  - susiecambria 5y ago
    Agree completely. Years ago, when I was first married (like several months after getting married), my husband needed surgery. The surgeon thought it might be pancreatic cancer. The board gave me all the time I needed, no questions. And, the day of the surgery, a colleague from work spent the day at the hospital with me. A free day from the board and director. Now it's true that I worked every day husband was in the hospital - I mean, he was sleeping most of the time so why not work? But they knew I would work since that's what I did. I delivered for years. I was incredibly grateful they allowed me to take the time. Am still grateful. But I was also in a position where I could take an unpaid leave or quit. Neither optimal, but family comes first. Would the organization have done the same for other staff? I don't think so. I had been there the longest and busted my ass for them, loving the work every single day.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      Coincidentally, I quit a consulting job that wouldn't give me (unpaid) time off to be with my mother through surgery for pancreatic cancer (positive outcome, so far). Had saved enough that finances permitted, and I still feel great about the decision.
billti 5y ago
Exactly. I haven't seen it as much now I'm in the U.S., but when I worked in Australia, it was very common for your 2 weeks of paid sick leave to be seen as "vacation". Most people who had sick leave left come December, were suddenly sick for a few days before the end of the year.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  The sickie is an Australian tradition.
- jlawer 5y ago
  Depends on your role / age / situation. When I was younger and working more junior roles and moving from role to role every year or 2 (generally headhunted) there was a use it or loose it mentality. You wouldn’t take the day off the moment you had a sniffle / didn’t feel 100%. However once your older, have kids and are at the role for more then a few years, that sick leave is often “banked” for when the kids come down with whatever is going around the schoolyard this week
fatnoah 5y ago
Having gone from limited PTO to unlimited really helped me realize that I'm a hoarder. When PTO is limited, I rarely take it, but when I had unlimited I was much more liberal about actually using it. I went from average 1-2 weeks per year to 5-6, mostly by taking random days here and there, ducking out early to have a fun afternoon with the kiddo, etc.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  I don't understand unlimited PTO. I mean, why not just take every Friday off, then? There is almost never a point at where where there's no work to be done; it's never going to be a case of "as long as you get your work done, you can take time off"... because there's no such thing as "done", just "prioritized".
  - mattnewton 5y ago
    If you can be competitive with peers and get enough done to continue progressing in your career with every Friday off, why not? The limit for me has always been my own productivity (and availability for meetings), and I think at a certain role level it's a reasonable expectation that you be measured in outcomes and not time spent at desk.
  - fatnoah 5y ago
    There are still expectations on the amount or level of work to be done. If you're meeting those and not blocking others, there's no reason one couldn't take more time off. It's certainly a tricky thing to sort out, though. As you noted, "abuse" is possible, but defining what constitutes abuse is nearly impossible.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  You call it "hoarder", I'd call it "low risk tolerance". I'm sort of the same. I never had unlimited PTO, but I tend to save my time off for cases where I actually need it. Saved my bacon a bunch of times, before I started working remotely, with teams/companies that don't mind me taking off half a day to run some important errands, as long as my total work hours add up to the correct number each month.
paul_f 5y ago
Reminds me of the story in Freaknomics of a Daycare that instituted a late fee. After the fee was instituted, the number of parents being late went up!
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Sounds like a situation where you go from feeling like an asshole to the daycare employees to utilizing service that you paid for.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    That is exactly the conclusion they drew.

AlgorithmicTime 5y ago

Right, PTO is compensation. I always make sure I end the year with a zero PTO balance (no rollover) and I make sure that I encourage my employees to do the same.

chrisdhal 5y ago
Depending on the company, that's not great advice. At my company you cannot take PTO until you accrue it, so if you end the year with 0, then you can't take anything for a while until you accumulate enough time.
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
  If there's no rollover (as I indicated is the case at my workplace) then you'll start the year wit ha zero balance no matter what. And we don't have that rule. Just don't end the year with a negative balance.

albertgoeswoof 5y ago

The trick is to negotiate unlimited compensation along with unlimited PTO. Oh wait

adrianmonk 5y ago
Just give me a credit card. I will spend money on things I want, as long as it's within reason. Such a workable system!

megablast 5y ago

> like 2/3 of your team must be available at any time (regardless of the team size), You don’t think this is a reasonable rule??

deleted 5y ago
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snarf21 5y ago
I think the issue is that it was used as an excuse to deny vacation. It could also lead to everyone being put on teams of 2. Great, now no one can take a vacation by definition.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Here is the problem with these policies. What happens when just 1 person or 2 people have key knowledge? My company has/had (the people I know with it left) this problem. Things hinged on one person and a team of effectively 1 or even 2 can never go on vacation. Now, obviously this should be considered a problem too but other problems can make the 2/3 part unworkable.
reificator 5y ago
Not if your team size is two, for example.
KptMarchewa 5y ago
No, because for some reason a lot of people take a lot of time off during summer.
Monory 5y ago
My current team is 2 people. Should we never take a break?

snarf21 5y ago

Right, it seems relatively simple to calculate someone's salary to also include additional 5 weeks of pay per year so that if you have to pay it out it was already budgeted. Alternatively, you could do it in such a way that every two weeks you get paid for 11 days worth of work and all time off is unpaid. Essentially you are getting 26 paid vacation days and you can use them or keep the extra money. It seems like a win-win. Known costs that are over time and extra money for employees or extra time off for employees.

dopidopHN 5y ago
I always been baffle by that. My last job switch, 6 month ago, I explicitly asked to apply that calculation on my shinny new yearly salary. To go from 2 weeks off to say.. 5. ( I really means 6 … ) I got 2.5 and a lesson on budgeted HR cost and resource availability. At least there was a response. The funnier is : I had to care for a family member too. I took 3 weeks already and they just routinely approved the unpay part of it.
ghaff 5y ago
Part of the problem is that California doesn't let companies have use it or lose it policies. Companies need to pay out unused at the end of the year. And employees don't like accrual cap policies (i.e. stop earning after you hit some figure) that don't let them bank some amount over their annual accrual.
- sidlls 5y ago
  The problem is that unlimited PTO is a loophole that companies use to avoid paying earned benefits. California’s regulations on this are poor because they don’t account for this, not because they’re a bad idea.
deleted 5y ago
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OJFord 5y ago

> So it turns out people were taking much more time off now than when PTO was unlimited. Is that surprising? I've had 'unlimited' (there must be a better way of saying that: obviously it has 'fair usage') for a couple of years, not counting but I'm pretty sure I've taken less than statutory. Previous place was seven days over statutory and up to five would roll; fewer than statutory requirement taken would be paid in lieu (by law), obviously I took enough to use it all or roll some over - why let a couple of days go to waste? But when there's just no numbers on anything... if I don't have something to do I don't take it. (That's probably unrelatable for anyone with children, or a spouse who is taking holiday, that makes sense and I'm not knocking it!)

randomswede 5y ago
"Not explicitly stated"?
- OJFord 5y ago
  Well that's a slightly pessimistic angle on it. Thinking about it my offer letter might've said something more like 'you decide', which is a bit more correct than 'unlimited' without the ominous threat of an undisclosed limit. Perhaps I should have actually 'decided' and written something down if only for myself!
  - randomswede 5y ago
    I find "unlimited PTO" enough of a warning signal that I think "not explicitly stated" is an excellent description of what it gives you. And, yes, at least one former workplace switched us from "25 days, plus Bank Holidays" to "unlimited PTO". With pretty much everyone in my team complaining that we preferred an explicit limit than a nebulous non-explicit managerial capriciousness.

bedhead 5y ago

I used to work at a company that, like everyone else, tracked PTO days. But I'm kind of a pain in the ass so I never bothered, plus, I worked ridiculously hard and came in at least one day every weekend and sometimes both Sat and Sun (plus most nights in general). Anyway, the head of HR asked me to start putting my PTO days in the system and I said sure, just let me know where I can submit the overtime slips. They got the point...it helped that I was good at my job. I've always liked the "treat people like adults" policy with unlimited PTO and no formal tracking. If someone can't manage PTO and is abusive of it, my guess is they either might not be a great hire anyway, and if they are, what are you accomplishing by bothering them?

angrais 5y ago
I'm quite confused at your response. Why are you so proud to give a company all your time, including nights and weekends, and for no additional costs? Then when asked to take PTO you asked for money instead of holiday, despite working nights and weekends? wat
- bedhead 5y ago
  I did well and was promoted and given raises and bonuses - that was kinda the point of working hard, not to get more days off. I just didn't like people making PTO a thing, it struck me as juvenile. I used plenty of PTO days, one summer I took every Friday off, but I didn't like the idea of being tracked like I was a child. My simple thought was if people do a good job, who cares about PTO tracking.
  - angrais 5y ago
    I see. That's much clearer, thanks. Although the point of documenting PTO is both useful for you (to quantify days off as you may be taking much less than you thought!) and the company (was behead meant to be in work today?! What if there's a fire alarm and headcount is needed?) Congrats on the promotion and raises! I agree that ideally working hard should lead to those outcomes.
- cynix 5y ago

saalweachter 5y ago

Honestly as a long-tenured employee, I'd be more happy with a modest, capped N weeks / year, with an explicit XX week sabbatical every M years. It's difficult to get that "hard reset" you need every once in a while with a 1-2 week vacation [which to be fair, is already fairly privileged], and even if you have 4-5 weeks / year ["generous by US standards"] it can be hard to take more than a couple of weeks at once because you need to save a week or so for Christmas, a few days for your anniversary, a couple of days for you or your spouse's birthday, three days to close out Thanksgiving, etc etc.

quantified 5y ago
> 1-2 week vacation [which to be fair, is already fairly privileged] Sucks not to be German. 6 weeks a year that gets used is pretty humane.
- aecay 5y ago
  The UK also gives people 6ish weeks (5 weeks to take when you want, plus 8 fixed bank holidays). I grew up in the US and am American more than I am anything else. I've lived in the UK for a relatively short time (6 years, under 20% of my life) -- but that's been my entire professional career. It's cultural differences like this that lead me to believe that America will never feel like "home" again -- I now can't imagine living somewhere where 6 weeks of vacation time seems like it's far outside the norm.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    You might have misunderstood the 6 weeks. That's 6 weeks actual vacation. Bank holidays (different depending on the federal state you're in but minimum is 9 - in Hesse) are on top of that. To be fair 30 days PTO is simply the standard in tech jobs. Minimum by law is 21, which some other industries do stick to.
    - lmm 5y ago
      5 weeks is 25 days and not at all uncommon in tech jobs, sadly.

darthvoldemort 5y ago

I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. When I worked at Uber engineering which had unlimited PTO, I took between 6-8 weeks of PTO every year. Most years was at least 6, but one year I took 8. No one batted an eye. I think it all depends on company culture or maybe team culture. I would never work for a company that denied me a PTO day, even if it was a single day. I would never irresponsibly take PTO but I would also make sure that I took at least 4 weeks off per year no matter what. The secret is taking 1 week off per quarter, and then another 2 weeks off during Christmas. That automatically brings you up to 6 weeks. But make no mistake, unlimited vacation is a way to keep PTO off the books as a liability. In California you cannot lose PTO that you have accrued. They can stop accrual however once you reach a certain level. Once you max out on accrual, you are giving the company money, which is stupid so it's important to consistently take PTO.

ahtihn 5y ago
> one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. I don't understand why you're mad at someone for using a benefit he's entitled to? Unlimited PTO means you should never have to work if you don't want to. Otherwise it's not unlimited. If there's a limit just state it upfront.
- tppiotrowski 5y ago
  "In many organizations, there is an unhealthy emphasis on process and not much freedom. These organizations didn’t start that way, but the python of process squeezed harder every time something went wrong. Specifically, many organizations have freedom and responsibility when they are small. Everyone knows each other, and everyone picks up the trash. As they grow, however, the business gets more complex, and sometimes the average talent and passion level goes down. As the informal, smooth-running organization starts to break down, pockets of chaos emerge, and the general outcry is to “grow up” and add traditional management and process to reduce the chaos. As rules and procedures proliferate, the value system evolves into rule following (i.e. that is how you get rewarded). If this standard management approach is done well, then the company becomes very efficient at its business model — the system is dummy-proofed, and creative thinkers are told to stop questioning the status quo. This kind of organization is very specialized and well adapted to its business model. Eventually, however, over 10 to 100 years, the business model inevitably has to change, and most of these companies are unable to adapt." [1] [1] https://jobs.netflix.com/culture https://jobs.netflix.com/culture

tiffanyh 5y ago

Companies like "unlimited" PTO because it doesn't put a liability on their books (e.g. 6 weeks of PTO x N number of employees amounts to a large liability). What companies doesn't like though is when you put restrictions on it. What I've seen as a middle ground is to have unlimited PTO but if you take more than 3 consecutive weeks off, it must convert to a leave of absence.

sithlord 5y ago
so, the middle ground is, "unlimited" is not, at all, unlimited.
noxvilleza 5y ago
I like the word "liability" you used here, because in Germany (where I've worked for the last ~5.5 years) there is another perspective of 'liability': an employer has to ensure that their employees take their vacation and adequately rest, else they expose themselves to legal liability. This isn't just about vacation - but also rests during each working day (I think it's 30 mins for < 9 hour workdays), and between working days (at least 11 hours between the end of day X and the start of day X+1).
- dorgo 5y ago
  I was travelling by bus and we got delayed. The bus stopped 15 minutes before reaching the destination because the bus driver had to take his 30 min rest. The rules are pretty strict especially for drivers.

xtracto 5y ago

I was an executive manager at 2 different startups that originally had "unlimited" PTO. In both of cases it felt wrong to me: The reality is that PTO is never unlimited. Like, if it was unlimited, someone could come to me and ask for 40 days of PTO and I'd have to tell them yeah. Or what about taking every Friday off? The result was that, lazy/low-performing people would take the most PTO while high performing more dedicated people would sometimes NOT take 1 day in a year (I had to remind/push them to take PTO at the end of the year for their own sainity!!). Personally, I prefer companies that tell me "25 days of PTO" or 20 or 30 or whatever. That way you everyone including the managers know that every employee WILL be out of the office that time, and it becomes a RIGHT of the employee instead of a charity of the manager. Ultimately, in these two startups changed from "unlimited" to something between 2 and 4 weeks of PTO per person.

3pt14159 5y ago
I'm a contractor, and I do pretty well. I bill by the day or by the hour. Client's choice. I even round down to the nearest even hour each day so I don't ever have to have that icky feeling of "did I really bill them right this week?" which would just distract me. When I work 14 hours in a row, that's what I bill. If I'm in the zone I push it till I fall over. It's worth it for the client. If I'm having an off day, I go home early and bill 4 or 6 hours. If I'm billing by the day, I just bill by the day. Whether it's 14 hours of working or 4, it evens out and if I'm unsure, I'll bill half a day. The important part is that the work gets done. And if I work a Saturday, you bet it's billed. Now, why do I say all of this? Because when it comes to time off I vastly prefer my situation. Sick for months? I'm not worrying about whether my PTO qualifies or whatever. I just don't get paid. This has happened recently and when I was healthy again my clients were happy I was able to help again. This weird sorta dance around time off (sick days, PTO, government holidays, dealing with a manager under pressure for the quarter, etc) makes a bit of sense for the working poor, but I don't understand why so many software developers bother. Just bill what you work and if you want a day, week, or month off take it. I'm sure if more developers asked to work this way large corps would be happy to accommodate them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

darekkay 5y ago

> Honestly I'd rather have a policy that only allowed 3 or 4 weeks with a minimum mandatory that each employee is required to take at least two weeks off per year. In Germany, your idea is the law. You get at least 5 weeks of vacation per year and you have to take at least 2 continous weeks off.

merb 5y ago
nope in germany the law is 24 work days and if you have more than 12 days off per year it's preferably! advised to allow 12 or work days contiguously (but it's not a hard requirement it only comes into play if an employee wants to take it like that) (people below 18 have different rules) also the employer is required to tell if days off will decay and force them to take them. and work rules are always in favor of the employee so it can be extended but never reduced in a contract.
- darekkay 5y ago
  Yeah, 24 work days, which is roughly 5 weeks (with weekends) . But the other part is not fully correct. Yes, the law is pro-employee, and you have the _right_ to take 2 weeks of continous vacation (12 free days). But you are also _required_ to do so when possible: > Kann der Urlaub aus diesen Gründen nicht zusammenhängend gewährt werden, und hat der Arbeitnehmer Anspruch auf Urlaub von mehr als zwölf Werktagen, so muß einer der Urlaubsteile mindestens zwölf aufeinanderfolgende Werktage umfassen. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__7.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__7.html I was really surprised when I first learned from my manager that it's a two-way law (right and obligation). But then again it is really a pro-employee law, basically forcing you to rest from your work.

mlboss 5y ago

In California PTO is considered part of salary. You either take the vacation or else company will pay you the vacation days or all your days will be rolled over to next year. Thats why most of the companies in Bay Area have unlimited PTO to bypass this law.

kstrauser 5y ago
CA allows employers to put a cap on accrued vacation. See https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Vacation.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Vacation.htm > Q. My employer's vacation policy provides that once an employee earns 200 hours of vacation, no more vacation may be earned (accrued) until the vacation balance falls below that level. Is this legal? > A. Yes, [and a bunch of examples] They're only required to cash out your vacation at the end of your employment, and rolling over vacation isn't really a thing because you accrue it incrementally with each paycheck. See "Q. How is vacation earned?" in that link for more info.

kstrauser 5y ago

My employer noticed that people weren't taking enough PTO, even with an unlimited PTO policy, so made new minimum PTO requirements. Each employee is required to take at least 2 days off per quarter and at least 2 weeks per year. People have actually started using it.

reginold 5y ago
Nice, this seems like the best way to do it. Fight workaholism, threatens the long term success of the business. The problem is without other changes you likely incentivize people to take "PTO" but still work.
- kstrauser 5y ago
  I've made it a personal goal to lead by example on this. Coworker: I'll be out of office for my friend's wedding next week, but I'll check in sometimes to make sure everything's OK. Me: Oh no you won't! Go have fun and stay away. We'll be fine for a few days. Chalk it up to enlightened self interest if you want. When it's my turn to be on vacation, I don't want to feel obligated to check in. Therefore, I don't let the people who report to me do it, either.
foobar1962 5y ago
A company I worked for required everybody to attend anti-corruption sessions (and later made it part of the induction process). A fun fact is that a reliable indicator of corrupt behaviour is never taking time off. If you're cooking books you don't want to let anybody else looking at them.
- randomswede 5y ago
  This is probably why the UK banking industry requires everyone to have at least one unbroken 2-week vacation every year.
- kstrauser 5y ago
  Huh, that's interesting and wouldn't have occurred to me. Even without that, there's value in testing the "bus factor" of critical roles. So, Jane wants to go on vacation and everyone's panicking because work can't get done without her around? It's much better to find that out now than when Jane switches jobs.

shoto_io 5y ago

I think unlimited PTO is an absurd policy to begin with. Why would you allow that? If people take a reasonable amount of days, then why not just have a generous policy like 6 weeks. If some people abuse how are you going to deal with them? Fire them? No, because you had the unlimited policy...

itronitron 5y ago

Accrued PTO can become a major liability for companies as it is wages that must be paid out at some point in the future. That is probably the main/only reason that companies offer 'unlimited' PTO since it doesn't carry over at year end and zeroes out when an employee leaves the company.

hotsauceror 5y ago
I worked at a place that, until a few years ago, allowed unlimited PTO rollover. You were allowed x days a year on a sliding scale that increased with tenure, but you could roll over all of it if you chose. This was also the kind of shop where some folks had been working there for 20 years, and had worked their way up from the shop floor to upper management. There were people that retired there with 2000-3000 hours of PTO banked, which of course paid out at their current rate. The were doing everything they could to switch peeps to a capped rollover plan.
- itronitron 5y ago
  Another technique that is employed to reduce the $ value of accrued PTO hours of lifers is the 'donate PTO feel-good' plan where people can donate PTO hours to colleagues that are on medical leave and running out of PTO hours. Since the people with massive PTO accruals are usually upper management (who are 'always working' as they never have to clock in and out) and the recipients are not, the company gets to pay out the PTO hour at a much lower wage.
  - hotsauceror 5y ago
    Yes, they introduced that too, after one of the larger natural disasters took a few regional stores and offices offline for a while. It hadn’t occurred to me that this was the real reason but you’re exactly right. Tooth-and-nail capitalist focus on reducing expenses while couched in the language of we’re-all-in-this-together virtue. It wears on the soul to carry the necessary cynicism of modern life with us.

1024core 5y ago

> The unlimited policy is definitely a scam at many companies. It is so they don't have to pay you for your unused vacation when you leave. It's a financial trick.

mind-blight 5y ago
Yeah, it makes their books look better as well. No PTO in the liabilities column

Vadoff 5y ago

At FAANG the PTOs roll over (but there's a maximum cap, usually 1 full year of saving PTOs) + when you leave the company they convert to cash based off your hourly salary.

lbotos 5y ago
There was a great money stuff by Matt Levine where he talked about bankers doing vacation arb, where they would not take any vacation early, work through a few promotions, and then get paid out the vacation when they left at the higher hourly rate.

balfirevic 5y ago

> Fast forward a year later and we were hearing things from executives and managers like, "you know you don't have to use all you're PTO, right?". Funny, they might as well suggest that you don't have to take entire salary you agreed on.

akudha 5y ago

My first job had advertised flexible work timings - you can come and go as you like, as long as you put in 8 hours. Once I joined, I was told flexi-time means you can come anytime before 9 am and leave anytime after 6 pm. lol

xiaodai 5y ago

I think unlimited PTO policies only make sense with a minimum. The minimum in Australian law is 4 weeks. When I worked in Singapore I also got 4 weeks even though the labor law in Singapore technically only mandates 4 weeks. When I work with unlimited PTO firms I will just make my intention clear from the start which is to take 4 weeks. Plus the two weeks of sick leave I am entitled to if I get sick. So max I use 6 weeks. But my sick leave accrues. LIke when I left a company I had 6 weeks of sick leave left unused and not paid, which is fine.

Aeolun 5y ago

I don’t like Japan’s default number of days off, but I do like their policy, which is that it is up to the employee when they take time off. The only situation in which a manager could reject it is if it would materially affect the company. In larger companies that’s obviously never the case for any individual person. Of course, that’s not quite how people use it, but the law as written is very nice.

jordan801 5y ago

Every time I see a job listing with Unlimited PTO, theres always some accompanying verbiage that makes it sound a lot like that unlimited PTO will be unavailable.

steveBK123 5y ago

I assumed unlimited PTO was BS and then I got a job that offered it and confirmed. In my industry/level 4-5 weeks PTO is pretty standard, with maybe 1 week allowed to carryover to say Q1 or maybe Q2 of following year. I almost certainly take slightly less average PTO now with "unlimited" than when I simply had that 4-5 week allotment. With a fixed allotment it is an entitlement you feel free to use. With unlimited managers get into psychological games of trying to shame you out of taking it. Even if you are strong and don't give in, many of your team isn't. A lot of studies have shown "unlimited PTO" is actually used less than the standard allotment for the industry/level studied. I certainly have to wrangle almost every request. Very few people take 2 solid weeks consecutive either.

Consultant32452 5y ago

I worked at a bigco that implemented 12 weeks of maternity/paternity leave. A good friend was the first person to take paternity leave, he helped his wife with the new baby and their 3 other children. His director was furious that he took the paternity leave. He started getting bad reviews and was sandbagged when he tried to switch departments. After he left the bigco, another director told him why he got the treatment he did.

wraptile 5y ago

My last workplace had "unlimited vacation" policy which in reality was a no-vacation policy. Everyone was constantly stressed and on the edge of burning out - would not recommend.

jcrites 5y ago

My company has unlimited PTO for being sick. If sick for more than 3 days (consecutively or probably within some time) you are required to provide documentation to HR of the sickness. A (young, vaccinated) colleague caught COVID and was out for weeks, with multiple urgent care and one ER visit (quickly discharged; urgent care thought he might have had a stroke). As far as I can tell he’s had no problems with the company after providing the medical evidence that he was, in fact, sick during that time. OP’s story sounds terrible and the company completely toxic. I don’t defend it at all. However, in the US, nationally taking time off to care to others is not what paid sick leave is typically intended for. (In Washington State, where I live, the Family Care Act allows employees to use any form of paid leave provided by their employer to care for sick family [1]; I don’t know how many states have passed a similar laws.) Taking leave to care for a sick family member is typically a different kind of leave. In the US, the Family and Medical Leave Act (known as FMLA) entitles eligible employees to 3 months per year to, among other things, care for a seriously ill spouse, or treat a serious illness of their own. FMLA leave is completely unpaid but your job is protected during and after that time, and there’s insurance you can buy to maintain your income when on FMLA. It is illegal for an employer to deny a request for FMLA if you are eligible for it, or to retaliate for taking it [2]. If you are eligible for FMLA and request it or are retaliated against by termination, that sounds like a lawsuit that would be easy to win, as well as getting the company in trouble with the Department of Labor. But who would want to work at a company with such toxic behavior from management and HR? I’m glad this was exposed, assuming that it’s true. (You never know who is lying and has a hidden agenda or axe to grind that they are not disclosing.) Good companies offer paid leave for the same activities that FMLA requires unpaid leave, such as Amazon’s 6 months of paid leave for birth mothers and 3 for other new parents. My current employer is offering 30 days of paid leave for taking care of family members who have serious illnesses like COVID and I’m confident based on what I’ve seen so far that they’ll honor it. There’s no “unlimited vacation” at Facebook or Amazon and I’m glad for that. My management chains at both companies have always encouraged taking vacation, and set an example by doing it themselves. Facebook even allows you to have a negative vacation balance, and I haven’t seen people need permission for taking their vacation at either company, though it would probably be wise to do so if you were playing an important role in a vital company activity that would be happening during your vacation (such as the launch of a major product you worked on, or periodic performance reviews if you’re a manager or have an important role in them). I typically entered my vacation into the system after taking it at Amazon, and would let my manager/peers know only if I was planning to be gone and unreachable for an extended period. (At Facebook there’s a good system for notifying people who want to/need to know when you will be out of the office, which also sets up the equivalent of out of office emails for their predominant form of internal communication, which is via Workplace.com (basically Facebook for Work, and an overall excellent product that I would recommend [3]); so at FB I’d enter it in advance because of those integrations, but unless I was performing a crucial job function at a crucial time, I wouldn’t expect to need to ask for permission, so much as notify my manager of my plans. During performance or promotion review committees for employees I’ve participated in, we always tried to adjust fairly for accomplishments per day of work vs. expectations and others, to avoid penalizing people who take full vacation or leave. It’s human nature to want to give a better performance rating to someone who worked hard for a year with minimal vacation, vs. someone who was on leave for half the year and also took vacation, thus having fewer accomplishments total; but the performance committees I’ve seen and participated in always tried to be fair and measure performance adjusted for time worked, and if anything erred toward being generous toward those who had been on long leaves. > I'd rather have a policy that only allowed 3 or 4 weeks with a minimum mandatory that each employee is required to take at least two weeks off per year. As a person who was once young, very ambitious, and had no responsibilities or dependents, I would be opposed to requiring that people take so much vacation. When I entered the industry, I wanted to work hard, build things, build a reputation, progress in my career, learn new things, and earn achievements (including one that got me an award and handshake from Jeff Bezos, back when he was CEO at Amazon); I didn’t want to or need to take vacation, and would have preferred higher pay instead. College was largely a 4 year vacation already, except for a few very challenging 400 level CS courses, and during which I had taken several real international vacations with my family. After graduation I was ready to work hard and build my career. The company provided holidays plus an extra day or two were sufficient for me. What I do wish is that companies were required to pay employees for any paid time off that is offered but not used, as they are required to do when you leave the company, but ironically not if you stay. (By not used I mean such as due to maximum vacation balances or yearly vacation balance resets, as Amazon used to do). Any vacation that would otherwise accrue as vacation balance but doesn’t, due to maximums, should be obliged to be paid as a proportional amount of compensation to the employee; the same if a vacation balance is reset. I am older now and have responsibilities for people besides myself, and I am aware of the risk of working too hard and burning yourself out, which is why I am glad to have always worked in environments where taking vacation has been encouraged. But for people with few responsibilities that love their job and want to progress in their career as fast as they are able, I do not think those people would be happy with vacation being forced on them. I wouldn’t have been. I do wish that employers were required to compensate employees for any PTO that is offered but not used though. I can understand why some people would not want the law to require this, since it might encourage people to overwork themselves - but we are all adults and some people may be in a situation where they need more money more than they need vacation time; it should be their choice in my opinion. [1] https://www.lni.wa.gov/agency/outreach/paid-leave-under-the-washington-family-care-act https://www.lni.wa.gov/agency/outreach/paid-leave-under-the-... [2] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protections https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec... [3] I don’t know if it has the same degree of integration via bots that Slack has, however, so if that’s important to your workflow then you may want to scrutinize this aspect when evaluating the product; but the capability for them exists and is used extensively internally.

phendrenad2 5y ago

Sounds like that company has (had?) a serious management culture problem. Without giving anything away, was it a large well-known company, a large obscure company, a small well-known company, etc.? Curious about what kind of company creates such an environment.

dbbk 5y ago

It's a candidates' market right now, especially for developers. If my holiday got denied for a trivial reason (or no reason) I would just walk out the door.

achenatx 5y ago

As an employee at a dot com I despised unlimited PTO. I would rarely take PTO, working through all major holidays etc while others took months off. The hardest working most dedicated people will get punished by an unlimited PTO policy. As an employer I offer 20 days/year base +1 day for each year of service. Our official policy is to only allow 10 days to roll over to encourage people to take vacation. We monitor people's vacation and work with them to schedule time off. The hardest working most dedicated people dont realize they need time off so we make them take the time off.

taylodl 5y ago

This is exactly why I won't work at a place with unlimited PTO. Sounds great in theory, but in practice theory and practice aren't the same!

Handytinge 5y ago

American overcorrection is bizare. Years ago I recall hearing regularly that many Americans had no annual leave at all, or the ones who did would get fired if they took it. Now it's the other extreme of unlimited, paid time off? Just have 4 weeks a year of rolling annual leave and be done with it! These absurd extremes serve nobody.