9 ms·
India’s caste system remains entrenched, 75 years after independence
- 1cvmask 5y agoOld habits die hard. We abolished slavery and then replaced it with Jim Crow laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws We have the biggest concentration camps in the world for primarily people of color. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_... https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration “ Despite making up close to 5% of the global population, the U.S. has nearly 25% of the world’s prison population. Since 1970, our incarcerated population has increased by 700% – 2.3 million people in jail and prison today, far outpacing population growth and crime. One out of every three Black boys born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as can one of every six Latino boys—compared to one of every 17 white boys.”
- google234123 5y agoIt would definitely be nice if we had less crime. Anyway, this is not relates to the article. Go preach somewhere else.
- jiggawatts 5y agoThe fish is the last to know it lives in water.
- vmception 5y agoThe crime self perpetuates by breaking up families (a parent is in prison), using the criminal record to exclude people from jobs leading them to resort to... crimes The nation can collectively pursue different solutions to increase productivity as well as its own domestic security.
- foolinaround 5y agoyou need to dig deeper to find out both the internal and external families as to why black families got broken...
- vmception 5y agoare you sure I'm the one that needs to be convinced of that? its clear we both would reach the conclusion that a more holistic solution is necessary than incarceration and the associated marginalizing
- MadeThisToReply 5y agoYou think that's bad? Wait until you hear about the horrible service I got from my local garage the other day. Took my car in for a routine service and the staff were completely unprofessional and rude. Didn't do the job I asked of them and then had the gall to charge a fortune for it. What a rip-off! Just thought I'd mention that, since the theme is apparently "random complaints which have nothing whatsoever to do with the linked article".
- fredgrott 5y agoWe are reminded daily in the USA that 9-11 was not about outside terror but inside terror trying to grab power through injecting fear into a system to attempt to over throw it using the effing same BS that stared the civil war
- LightG 5y agoPathetic response. The OP gave context to the human condition that allows this and another example where such problems are entrenched. But I do hope you find a better garage to get your car serviced at. All the best.
- throwaway59553 5y ago>We have the biggest concentration camps in the world for primarily people of color. Hyperbole much. You should worry more about how such a small portion of the population can commit so much crime per capita, much more than any other demographic, even accounting for some bias of law enforcement.
- smitty1e 5y agoRelated tangent: this is why the U.S. foreign policy of "winning hearts and minds" is such garbage. Cultures change, but at much lower frequency than the U.S. government's capability to do more than vaguely encourage.
- WangComputers 5y ago"One out of every three Black boys born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime" You're literally repeating a White-Nationalist talking point Disgusting
- collaborative 5y agoI think it would be as you say if it included "because of race". But it sounded more like it implied "because of systemic racism/classism"
- collaborative 5y agoIt's a bit sad that this is so down voted. I like to come to HN to read a bit and discuss but each time I come I get reminded of the prevailing demographic and it sucks
- known 5y agoDue to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) 1% owns 73% wealth in India https://archive.is/pOmij https://archive.is/pOmij
- OJFord 5y ago> The forebears of nearly two-thirds of India’s Catholics are Dalits who converted to escape stigma. Yet among four cardinals and 31 archbishops, only two are of Dalit origin. (Rest of it aside) that specifically doesn't seem necessarily that bad? If many of them aren't exactly devout Catholics ('converted to escape') then it seems reasonable they wouldn't (perhaps even want to!) reach high office. And there's perhaps a different stigma surrounding converts anyway, that's nothing specific to what they converted from or their status within it.
- rg111 5y agoWhat you say makes sense. But some of these people are really poor. Among the "racist" people in the US, many are actually "classist". That also runs high in Indian society. In my experience Christians are much more forward thinking and secular than other minorities in India. They live peacefully and blend very well with the Hindus. Even most of their names, outside of Goa, Mumbai, etc., are derived from Sanskrit, Tamil, Bengali roots depending on the region. A lot of Indian Christians will have only one name, i.e. middle name or first name identifying their Christian identity. Sometimes they often just ommit the Christian part except in official documents. Anyway, this is a good sign totally as you say, but that is true in prosperous regions and/or households. For backward regions and poor families, I am not sure if people will even let them hold religious offices. Btw, even Christians can claim backward castes benefits if their ancestors happened to belong to a so called lower caste when they were not Christians.
- foolinaround 5y ago> In my experience Christians are much more forward thinking and secular than other minorities in India. Sadly, not by much. Indian Christians have adopted many of the vices of the West ( the rates of divorce among Indian Christians are higher than Indians), but in terms of a broader outlook, I have seen this only in the sub-category of those living in big cities, and predominantly english-speaking and educated. The Christians in rural areas continue to hold on to caste, despite all efforts. In some ways, the Church structures themselves are casteist, and bar people from being part of it.
- 5y ago
- yur3i__ 5y agoCaste is so insane, in western diaspora communities its thankfully starting to die out though. My generation (3rd generation in the west) aren't really educated enough on traditions to know about caste or care.
- nyolfen 5y agoover 90% of american indians are brahmin anyway https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/getting-america-to-recognise-caste-previous-efforts-renewed-push-6495101/ https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/getting-america-...
- no_butterscotch 5y agoI believe IBM (or Intel) plus some other Western companies have seen caste-based discrimination lawsuits emerge, whereas a couple decades ago that wouldn't have been the case. The idea that the diaspora doesn't keep this stuff alive is false.
- yur3i__ 5y agoA lot of tech workers are first generation immigrants though, I'm talking about more entrenched immigrant families that are 2 or 3 generations deep
- rg111 5y agohttps://archive.md/7mVTx https://archive.md/7mVTx
- FabHK 5y agoIt's been a while that I've been to India (last millennium...). Back then, the Times of India had pages and pages of lonely hearts ads in the back, or rather, matrimonial ads. They were sorted by caste, though there were two special categories for NRI (Non resident Indians, i.e. expats) and MBA (yes, Master of Business Administration graduates) - they seem to transcend caste. The ads typically specified the industry and income of the candidate (or their family) in LPA (lakh per annum); some would specify that "caste no bar", and a few allowed that the "bride may apply herself" (rather than the family). Quite eye-opening. I wonder how things are today.
- manishsharan 5y agoI am more optimistic that the caste system will die out within our lifetime. Almost all the younger people I know in India are on dating apps and they are dating people who they would not have met otherwise. I do not know how it is in villages of India , which are stuck in medieval times, but kids in small towns and cities have found sexual liberation in dating apps. If the economy of India improves such that kids are less dependent on parental money , you will see the caste system die out soon.
- newsclues 5y agoI look at western society with a fairly rigid class system (wealthy, middle and poor classes) that doesn’t get talked about but it’s very real.
- woodpanel 5y agoHuh? I think you've just missed out the last 120 years of western history. I could agree if you've said: It doesn'T get talked about enough. See the newest class-y development: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-class https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-...
- newsclues 5y agoI wrote that it doesn’t get talked about which isn’t precise. It’s largely ignored by most, dismissed or downvoted, and our society tends to pretend it’s not a problem.
- orwin 5y agoYou know what's really sad about this? The caste system prevent a huge part of the population to contribute to the demographic dividends that made China, SK and Japan the powerhouses they are. India is taking the same path as Turkey and South Africa, and as long as the mixture of the caste system and the religious troubles they have is not fixed, even the Brahmins will pay the price (not even taking into consideration the climate drift).
- karterk 5y ago> The caste system prevent a huge part of the population to contribute to the demographic dividends Over the years India has implemented several affirmative action programs (locally called "reservations") that ensures a more level playing field. India has actually done reasonably well economically since 1995. Unless you can point to specific studies that correlate India's less-than-spectacular economic performance to the caste system directly, this is a fairly baseless statement. You only have to take a quick look at the last 10 year average GDP.
- softveda 5y agoPer capita GDP of India is 142 out of 189 countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_State_Hunger_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_State_Hunger_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Indi...
- known 5y agoBrahmins, 5% in India, deserve a separate country since 50% Ministers in Modi Cabinet are Brahmins "Thousands of years of oppression actually taught to accept this sad position" --Churchill (b. 1874) https://archive.is/XlOXf https://archive.is/XlOXf
- vmception 5y agoCan someone help me understand identity politics in India? There are a lot of things I don't understand, for example, there are some people that find it really important to tell others that the caste system doesn't exist, or is like really sensitive to anything negative said about India. Is that just run-of-the-mill nationalism? Because if so, it is hilarious when it's another country's nationalism.
- softveda 5y agoIt is defending the current Modi government and hyper-nationalism combined with a bit of ostrich behaviour. The govt. talks about "policy" but in reality elections are fought on caste. It is called "caste equation" and requires delicate balancing act to not antagonise anyone at the same time pleasing everyone. It is playing in Indian MSM right now as important state elections are approaching next year.
- e3bc54b2 5y agoCaste system, at least where I live (which I believe to be fairly progressive part of country, as my travels have revealed there are worse places) is like a strong undercurrent to the social psychosis. It is not obvious to the newcomer, and we appear a very amalgamated bunch, all working in same company, going to same school and so on. But then you live here for a while, go sufficiently wide and deep, and then you feel it, and realise it is too strong to change in 3 generations. I didn't realise for a long time, but I looks back and see that somehow, upper caste kids always stuck together. There parents always had social events together, and even though we shared same society, other families weren't invited. Every 'class' has to have their own very public, very loud 'holidays'. Caste based marriages are pretty obvious, though that is changing slowly. People have biases in simple places, like simply knowing someone's surname means you can put them in a caste/category and then first impression is already made. Things are changing, definitely, but slowly and not always in right direction. The 'reservation' or quotas in college admissions, government jobs and so on, created to make a level playing field is creating a new privileged class that is 'lower caste' in name only. This is creating new divide and I'm not sure thatcan be changed because suggesting otherwise is political suicide.
- whycombinatore 5y ago
- gringoDan 5y agoSeems like the caste system is really hard to shake. Reminds me of this podcast on how it still rears its head in US tech companies: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/923736245/caste-arrives-in-silicon-valley https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/923736245/caste-arrives-in-si... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698
- raven108 5y agoIndia vedas talk about “varna” - class system based on ability & skills, not caste system. Modern Indian caste system was introduced by British to divide and conquer. Economist with a long history of Hindu phobia and in the vein of colonial British rake it up every now and then. Caste comes from Spanish casta, no equivalent term exists in sanskrit for this.
- nyolfen 5y agojatis have been endogymous for ~2000 years according to genetic studies. nowhere else on earth has this level of genetic segregation within a single region.
- amriksohata 5y agojatis yes, but not segregation, classification yes, not hierarchy on steroids until the british came in
- nyolfen 5y agoyeah bro, dalits just really love cleaning waste
- amriksohata 5y agoOf course its a societal problem in India, but to root out caste, we have to understand where it came from first and then work together of making people equal. Whilst Christian missionaries from Britain keep coming into India exploiting caste to gain conversions which further creates divisions. When we understand the reasons, we can address the problems
- whycombinatore 5y agoYeah right, every damn thing is because of someone else. Start taking responsibility for your actions.
- 5y ago
- ramblerman 5y agoThis is a real risk when working with offshore teams in India. We had to get involved in the interview process multiple times as the talent is absolutely there. But left to their own devices a lot of the sites ended up hiring friends or "cousins". I'm not sure if that came down to Caste or just "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" but it was far from meritocratic.
- black_13 5y agoThen dont use offshore.
- 300bps 5y agoHard to generalize about a country of over a billion people but in many areas of India there is a strong sense of “keep money in the family” which is why they like to hire their cousins. That’s also why even marrying first cousins is so common in certain areas. In the south, about 25% of people marry their first cousin. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
- mrlonglong 5y agoThis makes me shudder to think of the genetic damage being done to these people. The rule should always be fresh genes to keep the lineage healthy.
- pseudonymousgun 5y agoThere is definitely caste system in hiring process. If you take any big company operating in India, and you will most certainly find the caste system replicated in the corporate structure in India. The Brahmin caste dominates the corporate hierarchies and are the perpetrators of this system, typically through favoritism and through their early advantage (but their grip is loosening up slowly).
- unlimit 5y agoI am not sure what type of companies you have worked with. But I have never seen this happening. There are times when a client selected person is not taken in but the reason has never been what you have described. Please do not generalise.
- tsjq 5y agoand how does the govt try to solve? by reservation quota. give college seats , jobs, promotions, etc for people with lower scores and their children and their children & forever.
- pseudonymousgun 5y agoyou don't understand social justice, do you ?
- dublin 5y agoI'd argue based on the comment, that @tsjq understands social justice quite well, including the unshakable truth that you cannot use institutionalized racism and bias as a remedy to racism and bias. Doing so not only perpetuates the evils of the discrimination, but amps it up to eleven, because now it is done with the full force and power of the government. There is no policy basis more evil and counter-productive than the left's modern concept of "social justice", which is hateful and unjustifiably retributive at its heart. (Viz the left's current efforts to eliminate the truly blind auditions used in orchestras - according to the SJWs, merit must not be allowed to allocate job slots to the most capable and talented. That's the path to Harrison Bergeron...)
- OliverJones 5y agoIt's interesting for this white american guy to learn a little bit about other cultures' prejudicial tribal structures. (That's my attempt at neutral language for what american sociologists call "structural racism".) I suspect it's trickier to learn about those structures in one's own culture.
- alisonkisk 5y ago"structural racism" is the neutral scientific term.
- xsmasher 5y agoAs Mark Twain said "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts." Once you get out and about you have a new lens to look at your own society too - another viewpoint shines light into your blind spots.
- black_13 5y agoI could see it work out when I was in the DFW area how one group treated another group and how several managers treated me
- foolinaround 5y agothere is a cream segment of the Dalits and certain castes that got categorized as 'lower' based on their influence at the time of Indian Independence that benefited from the affirmative actions, and they are now as influential as 'brahmins' their progeny continue to reap the benefits at the cost of the rest of their own caste members. This segment actually rules India - the Brahmins continue to hang in there, but don't really rule at the top, though they are there. A good example if you look is the Tamil Nadu government - primarily run by folk from castes who were at the forefront of the social reformation, but were not really low castes to begin with. Now, with power for nearly a century, they have strengthened their grips tighter.
- dTal 5y agoIt's the standard cycle of revolution. Middle class convinces lower class to help overthrow upper class. Middle class becomes new upper class. Most successful from the lower class rise until they eventually become the new middle class, and begin to chafe against the upper class.
- goforbg 5y agoI wish I wasn't born here
- naveen99 5y agoAnyone have any good caste jokes ? Someone please post an rfj on r/jokes and report back
- amriksohata 5y agoThe word "caste" comes from the Portuguese word "castus" which means clean and pure. No such word exists in any Hindu scripture and certainly Varna does not mean clean and pure. The Varna system was designated occupational duties based on character alone, yes there was conflict but it was only till the British adopted the word and used it to divide and rule people did it become a major problem.
- mrlonglong 5y agoIt's even worse than that, over centuries the UK took trillions out of India to keep their world empire afloat. That's something that shames me as a Brit.
- yumraj 5y agoCaste system in India will not die till there is caste based reservation, which only seems to be expanding. Those who benefit from the reservation have incentive to keep the caste system alive. Those who do not benefit from caste based reservation develop resentment against those who benefit, furthering the caste based divide. Due to the abuse there is no political will to change anything.
- known 5y agoAnd as per https://ncrb.gov.in https://ncrb.gov.in just 5% rapists are prosecuted/punished in India when the victim is SC/ST aka Dalit in India; Sometimes a divided country is better than a hopeless one https://www.change.org/p/300-million-india-s-untouchables https://www.change.org/p/300-million-india-s-untouchables
- known 5y agoIndian diaspora is also running an Organized Mafia in America https://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian-americans-from-usa https://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian-america...