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Linux Sucks 2021 – The End of Linux Is Nigh [video]

64 points by WoodenChair 5y ago

hr2016 5y ago
Ok
pshirshov 5y ago
Well, Linux definitely sucks. By a chance - is there anything better? Pretty please?.. Actually in case Fuchsia manages to replace - well, I would be happy. But would it really happen?..
- dnautics 5y ago
  I want to know the answer to this. I have a really good track record of picking things that are about to get hot (julia, elixir, zig). As much as I love linux, I also hate it. I'm ready for the next OS.
  - pshirshov 5y ago
    Noone is working on the next general purpose OS for the end user. Maybe apart of Google. For some reason people wish to stick with dated unsafe crap from prehistoric era.
    - hatmatrix 5y ago
      GNU Hurd should be ready any day now...
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        They got audio support in a basic form a few years ago. That's how far behind they are.
      - pshirshov 5y ago
        Ready for what?
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        For being put out to pasture? Right, I'll show myself out...
    - zekrioca 5y ago
      You may do some more research [1]. [1] http://www.barrelfish.org/ http://www.barrelfish.org/
      - pshirshov 5y ago
        Looks like another pile of memory-unsafe C crap: http://git.barrelfish.org/?p=barrelfish;a=blobdiff;f=usr/drivers/enet/enet_module.c;h=e8f11dd91848091e0a4d9a8512f870f741f966b6;hp=a9e3c2d38b939ec0283c7be554333b6ade3ccb67;hb=0b09b6c6ec1971d38d0b474df37a6dcb9e44936c;hpb=29875f3479b15f92412772aa546a1a5ad0a2e0de http://git.barrelfish.org/?p=barrelfish;a=blobdiff;f=usr/dri... This will never become a modern OS. Wasted effort, wasted time, wasted money.
  - yissp 5y ago
    [something].js https://xkcd.com/1508/ https://xkcd.com/1508/
    - dnautics 5y ago
      M.E.T.A.L (https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...) - hopefully "pandemic" won't take the place of the 5 years war between 2020 and 2025
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        That depends pretty much on the anti-vaccine folks.
- bumblebritches5 5y ago
  Fuscia
- koolba 5y ago
  Linux is like Democracy, it’s the worst except for all the alternatives.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Windows
  - pshirshov 5y ago
    Sorry, but what is "Windows"?
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Nice little OS, has been around for a bit. Good backwards compatibility to boot.
      - pshirshov 5y ago
        I had a look at it, looks like another inconsistent pile of unsafe C crap stirred with tons of legacy frameworks and complete incoherence. Doesn't look like an OS at all.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Windows is a mix of legacy C code, which started to be migrated into C++ around the Vista time (hence /kernel in VC++) and .NET/COM (WinRT is basically COM with some extras). Modern kernel code makes use of WIL. https://github.com/microsoft/wil https://github.com/microsoft/wil
        jcelerier 5y ago
        > around the Vista time I remember stumbling on the win 3.11 sources on github at some point, C++ was already used back then
        pjmlp 5y ago
        For what would be "userspace" yes, but they were crazy enough to still do COM in C, given that by Windows 95 C++ was still unwelcomed on the kernel. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210824-00/?p=105602 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210824-00/?p=10...
- dnautics 5y ago
  > Actually in case Fuchsia manages to replace - well, I would be happy. But would it really happen?.. Would you be happy? Google has a poor track record of maintenance, not to mention monstrosities like angular, golang, kubernetes... I shudder to think about what a Google OS would look like.
  - pshirshov 5y ago
    Well, fuchsia seems to be better designed and from what I've heard they had intention to rewrite their kernel in Rust. Eventually. Fuchsia seems to be FOSS. So, in case a new userland appears on top of this legacy-free system I, probably, would be happier than I am right now on damn Linux where nothing works as it should and everything segfaults.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      I think rust is a singularly poor choice to write a kernel, due to the datastructures required, poor support and interop between libraries and nostd, in the long run macros obscuring code and making understanding timing attacks difficult, e.g. but that's just my opinion... If you have the resources of google, you might as well write it in another language and apply a proof solver for security assurances (or just use SeL4).
    - tored 5y ago
      Problem is that the software license has become irrelevant for the largest tech companies. In the old days there was a fear among them, and probably rightly so, that their software would be "stolen" if they went open source. But today every large corporation is running projects as open source without any fear. What happened? For one these projects are so complex it is not feasible for Joe the programmer to read thru all of it, it takes a company of the size of Google or Microsoft to manage it. The other thing is that the business model changed. Now they give stuff away for "free" to lock you in and spy on your every move and then monetize it. Third is the close integration of hardware and software, so even if someone forked Fuchsia it would be utterly pointless because of hardware. What Google has shown is that it is possible to operate one of that largest spying agencies in the world all on open source.
- amatecha 5y ago
  You may want to check out the *BSD OSes like FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD. Just try them. Watch some videos to see what they're about. They might very well appeal to you. I personally think they are great and am embracing them (particularly OpenBSD) over Linux for most new computers I set up.
Alupis 5y ago
Bryan Lunduke revisits this talk every year at linux conventions. Usually good observations. BTW, he loves linux.
- gHosts 5y ago
  I hate long slow videos? Any slides. He seems sometimes, if I remember previous years, to forget the point is open source, not linux. If a better Open Source OS appears tomorrow, I'd abandon linux for it without a backward glance. If it's closed source, it could be rainbows and ponies and I'd still turn it down. On the otherhand, I bet an Open Source OS could grow any rainbows and ponies I actually need and want.
  - Alupis 5y ago
    > to forget the point is open source, not linux. For you, perhaps. But for most companies, they use Linux because it's the best server OS around in regards to performance, compatibility, customizability, footprint, support, etc. Sorry BSD folks, I know BSD is great too, but it's just not as widespread as Linux and therefore doesn't quite have the compatibility and support Linux enjoys.
    - gHosts 5y ago
      The point is it became that _because_ it is open source.
      - Alupis 5y ago
        > The point is it became that _because_ it is open source. I still disagree. Most companies happily pay for their server OS's and support (Red Hat, SUSE, Oracle, etc), and don't even think about the open source aspects. Maybe a long time ago it got traction from being open source, but so is all the BSD's and they aren't nearly as prevalent as Linux is. Something else has to be a factor here besides it being open source. Perhaps you mean it became that way because open source attracted talented developers? Perhaps... although today most contributions to the kernel are from paid developers working for mega corps like Google, Amazon, IBM, etc, who do that as part of their day job. As an aside, I love and support open source projects, I just don't think it really matters for Linux (at least anymore). Plenty of folks would happily use it if it were closed source and proprietary - it's that good today.
raman162 5y ago
This is a long form video, maybe the title should be adjusted to inform that
skibz 5y ago
Much like Google's Fuchsia, FreeBSD is an alternative that has compatibility for Linux binaries.
- mathfailure 5y ago
  No, it has not, that's a myth. Nothing works there properly.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It works well enough for Playstation developers.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
  NetBSD kernel has Linux compatibility. (NetBSD had it for years before FreeBSD.) For simple applications it works well. Fortunately I prefer simple applications.
- pshirshov 5y ago
  But not an alternative when we need memory safety or just damn 802.11ac wifi.
- Delk 5y ago
  The kernel's still monolithic, and one of the arguments in the video was core system components becoming unsustainably large. I suppose the community woes the video mentions might apply equally to BSD, although I have no personal experience with how those work in that part of the world. If Google developing Fuchsia and (again, as postulated in the video) perhaps moving focus away from Linux is a concern, it might be worth noting that even if there are corporate backers and sponsors of FreeBSD, I don't think there are companies the size of Google, Intel or even Red Hat contributing massively to its overall development. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of that going on. Pretty much all of the arguments given in the video could be true for FreeBSD or other Unix systems as well, at least if they had the breadth of Linux in terms of hardware support, size and visibility of the community, and corporate connections.
blagie 5y ago
I wish there were a TL;DR, a transcript, or something.
- TOMDM 5y ago
  To quote his major points - Founders banished - Community in shambles - Companies losing linux focus - Core system components reaching unsustainability - Google building a replacement (Fuschia) - Statistically unlikely to stay active much longer
smoldesu 5y ago
Their summary: - Founders banished - Community in shambles - Companies losing Linux focus - Core system components reaching sustainability - Google building replacement - Statistically unlikely to stay active much longer
- dnautics 5y ago
  I don't want to put words in Lunduke's mouth, but since it seems to be a politically charged issue, I think that in this video the perspective of why "Founders banished" matters has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with why any given one of them (or all of them) have been banished, the fact that it's all happening at once - whether or not it's a coincidence - suggests a bad future for the ecosystem.
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    I disagree, out-of-touch founders being kicked out is a good thing. It's a sign that the community is strong enough and can move forward irrespective of any one person's opinion. This video has it totally backwards. Like, I get that there is an aspect of founder worship on this forum but there is no inherent value in this beyond the idea that someone can keep control indefinitely, which doesn't matter for an open source project. Maybe it matters if you want to hang onto your company's bank accounts but that's a fundamentally different thing compared to a project that exists entirely on public github.
    - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
      You may have a point in theory, but the harsh reality seems to disagree. Kicking out stupid people may be all good and dandy, but I'm very wary of the people who are harsh proponents of the kicking, whom they represent, and what they stand for. Oh, and what/whom they suggest the "stupid" leader X should be replaced with. Usually their thinking doesn't go that far. The usual pattern I see is: employees at large corporations attacking people who don't have a big corporate affiliation. This may not mean much, but it makes me start thinking about this big picture. And then, I haven't yet seen an open source project where the long-time leader went away because of burnout of some kind or was kicked out, and it started growing, prospering, and kicking ass in general (Python doesn't count, since Guido never really went away). I've seen stagnation at best, and disuse, lack of maintenance, and a fall into obscurity in the vast majority of cases. In other words, there is not enough laissez-faire in "the community" at large to keep the tragedy of commons at bay.
throwawayswede 5y ago
I'm aware that Brian has been trolling with such a title over the years, but I really think that it's the epitome of clickbait. Totally a personal opinion, but I absolutely hate such farcical titles. I'd honestly feel more compelled to watch yet another one of those with a title like "What still sucks about Linux"
- TOMDM 5y ago
  Agreed. Not to mention he takes ages to say not much. There are some good points buried in here, but it takes him over 5 minutes before he's even on topic.
  - mrintegrity 5y ago
    i was grateful for the 1.75x speed option on the video!
- ziml77 5y ago
  He's not trolling or clickbaiting. The title is referring to a future that we are always teetering on the edge of where Linux fades away. The video is a list of the things that he thinks the Linux community should be looking to fix to avoid that decline.
  - throwawayswede 5y ago
    > He's not trolling Yes he is. > or clickbaiting I believe he is. > …he thinks the Linux community should… You might be commenting on the wrong post, because clearly that’s not what the title of the talk says. While we’re on the topic, I think the problem is trying to make a “community” out of every other software a group of people use. I think embedding Linux in Windows is wrong, clearly there are lots of Linux people who think that’s correct. I’m not wrong and neither are they. We just don’t have to be a “community” just because we use Linux. The survival of Linux depends on a lot more than what a random circle of people who use it are arguing about.
butz 5y ago
As long as Linux sucks less than Windows and macOS - I'm a happy Linux user.
- hk1337 5y ago
  macOS UI > Linux UI > Windows UI but macOS has weird quirks that bumps them down in the CLI space. Linux CLI > macOS CLI > Windows CLI Linux CLI and macOS CLI are really close, I think but Linux beats it.
  - ladyanita22 5y ago
    Windows software library >>> macOS software library >> Linux software library
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    At the peak of it's game (Mojave), MacOS was really competitive for my workflow. One evening I made a simple realization that kinda trashed it all, though: I was spending more time making MacOS like Linux than I spent making Linux like MacOS. By the time Catalina came out (and trashed 32-bit libs along with it) the value proposition was squandered once again. It's funny how transient the usability of a 'stable' OS can be, even on the Linux side of things. Of course, Windows is still bringing up the rear. WSL is mighty competitive though, and I'm giddy with anticipation of what Windows 11 will do with it.
    - zeusk 5y ago
      Android on W11 is something that was much more possible thanks to the work on WSL and WSLg
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Actually all of that is possible thanks to Android on WinRT, aka Project Astoria.
  - scns 5y ago
    Form or function what do we value more?
kvark 5y ago
Linux has never been scale-able, starting from the days of the Tanenbaum–Torvalds debate. You can't grow a monolithic kernel indefinitely. It's amusing how it managed to reach the state it is now.
- dnautics 5y ago
  can I introduce you to something called x86?
  - kvark 5y ago
    That's an interesting analogy! I think it's going to be history as well, just in a much longer term. Apple has jumped the ship already.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      (i'm not arguing it's good, I agree with the video, just pointing out that low-level "inscalability" can be kludged indefinitely, it seems)
    - zekrioca 5y ago
      One should think about archiving and being able to reproduce code consistently before ditching technologies like Apple does.
- outworlder 5y ago
  Why do you need to grow a kernel indefinitely? Surely there's a limit on what kernelspace is responsible for.
  - kvark 5y ago
    I don't want to grow a kernel. Linux grows by 2M LOC a year, as reported by the author of the video. That's just what happens.
    - 5y ago
omgwtfbyobbq 5y ago
On the plus side, rms returned to the FSF about a month after this video was made. Maybe things are slightly less nigh? https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22344910/richard-stallman-returns-free-software-foundation-board-comments https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22344910/richard-stallman...
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  I don't understand why that would be relevant, Richard Stallman has nothing to do with Linux and has never worked on Linux at all.
  - type0 5y ago
    relevant link that would otherwise have two of these contradictory copypastas: https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php/Interjection https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php/Interjection edit: the whole point is that people often mean Linux as in some distro and not Linux the Kernel
    - gsich 5y ago
      No. He has nothing to do with Linux (as in the kernel). Parent is right to call it just Linux.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - lavabiopsy 5y ago
      I don't understand why this is relevant. To use the word from that article, please do not "shitpost" here, let's keep the conversation above ground.
  - m463 5y ago
    The linux kernel is only one part of a functional system. RMS contributed gcc, gdb, emacs, gmake and more into the gnu system, which are all used in most distributions. That said, I think the GPL is his most important contribution, because that has kept such projects (such as the linux kernel) available to all.
bbarnett 5y ago
Google is famous for launching projects, spending billions, and then... just dropping them. And just because Google does something, doesn't mean anyone else will use it. Not sure why Google doing something, means certain... anything.
gnabgib 5y ago
This was posted 7 months ago [0] with a fairly sizable discussion (74 comments) [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203471
jlkuester7 5y ago
Man, this does make me wonder if Linux today is the FireFox of 2007.... An absolute juggernaut that is far superior to its cooperate competitors (IE/Safari), but can't quite comprehend what is about to happen when Google releases this little thing called Chrome... Fuchsia is definitely a vastly underrated project (just from the fact that it has survived 5? years without the overlords at Google killing it off should indicate something).
- jamesfinlayson 5y ago
  Fuschia will survive (I assume Google wants to have an operating system with a license that isn't GPL).
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Fuchsia is already in production, the Nest now use it.
- garren 5y ago
  Could fuchsia, as a google product/project, get the kind of traction that has contributed to the success of Linux? I think it possible, but somehow it doesn’t seem realistic. Would google’s competition flock to using google’s proprietary Linux replacement?
yellowapple 5y ago
Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL, on the topic of companies trying to enable transitioning away from Linux onto their own operating systems. On that note, if the end is indeed nigh, then replicating Linux compatibility across as many other platforms as possible - beefing up the existing support on FreeBSD and NetBSD, reintroducing it for OpenBSD, getting it going on something like Haiku - seems like an important next step. Linux the kernel might have numbered days, but Linux the ABI could still have a future. One thing the video misses re: Linux's prognosis is the breadth of hardware/driver support. Linux is, if not the most comprehensive collection of actively maintained device drivers out there, pretty darn close to it. Other platforms implementing Linux's userspace ABI? Big whoop. It's the kernelspace drivers that will entrench Linux for a long while, and it's those drivers that a Linux replacement will need to provide - whether from scratch or through compatibility with Linux's kernelspace APIs - before Linux's death is even possible, let alone probable. Even Fuchsia is highly unlikely to be the Linux replacement Bryan suspects it to be without substantially expanding its hardware support (which is still AFAICT in its infancy; even Haiku supports more hardware, and that's developed with a budget that might as well be a rounding error compared to what Google's able to throw around).
- type0 5y ago
  > Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL - How could you make Linux suck more? - You install it on Windows!
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Actually suck less, it has been my option since VMWare made it possible.
    - nix23 5y ago
      Have to agree, Windows sucks less with Linux on it.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        I know UNIX since my introduction to Xenix in 1993, used several flavours of it for what is now about 30 years, was a Linux Journal subscriber for most of its existence, yet all my laptops with exception of an aging Asus Netbook don't run GNU/Linux bare metal, rather Apple, Microsoft or Google systems, go figure.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kgarten 5y ago
I guess there's a kind of humor in the video. Yet, for me Linux has seen by far worse days. I can,remember how Microsoft didnt want to work with us, because we used communist software ... Also Linux is the most common OS on two planets in our solar system :) A 42 min video with content that could be put in 5 minutes (not well reasoned at all, as missing WSL and other systemic threats, like right wing idiots) is just sad.
kazinator 5y ago
Bryan could balance his perspective just a tad by dredging up example of old technologies that are used in production, even mission-critical roles. Not everything that is old is used only by tinkering retrocomputing enthusiasts. E.g. COBOL has had a much longer run than Linux. Not to deny that its glory days are long gone, if it had any, but it's deployed in important roles, not just something in the hands of retro-tinkerers. There is also the fact that Amiga is specific hardware. DOS is also tied to specific hardware. Newer hardware still has compatibility to make DOS work, but at the cost of using a 64 bit machine with gigs of RAM as if it were a turbocharged version of an 80286 from 1985. Maybe an 80386, if a DPMI DOS extender is used. For now, the retrocomputing enthusiast who keeps riding on the back of the supposedly dying Linux horse has a good desktop experience with a brand new computer, which is used to its full potential. This will likely be the case going forward, unless hardware fundamentally changes (like away from the Von Neumann model, type of thing). Linux will be surely dead when it can't make use of the current hardware, when you need to resurrect (or emulate) legacy hardware to be able to play with Linux. (Even in that situation, it will likely be used in production roles, not just retrocomputing hobby situations.)
10GBps 5y ago
Eh, after using Linux mostly as my primary OS and 100% for servers for nearly 30 years I think Linux is only just now in the last 10 years started to come in to its own. The game isn't ending, it has just started! Linux is more than ChromeOS and Android. Everything Internet is Linux, IoT, routers, appliances, cameras, vehicles, the list is endless. Fuchsia, being Google, will be as evil as Chrome. And it may be popular just like Chrome and Windows but that doesn't mean there isn't something better for users who care about control, security, and privacy. There is no way in hell Fuchsia or anything else is going to run the Internet like Linux does. Even the alternate OS's like Fuchsia, Haiku, MacOS, etc don't have server versions. The mammoth Microsoft even failed at servers and they do have server versions. Barring some unforeseen conspiracy, Linux is going to be around for a long, long time.
- dcgudeman 5y ago
  Why is chrome "evil"?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I guess mainly because in about 5 years time Web developers can write ChromeOS developer instead on their skillset.
    - dcgudeman 5y ago
      so chrome is "evil" because web developers will be able to create apps for ChromeOS in addition to web apps? Or you are claiming that web apps will only work on chrome?
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        I am claiming that Web === ChromeOS, when Google is done with Firefox, while Apple keeps focusing on native apps.
- rurban 5y ago
  IoT is not Linux. Most small embedded devices cannot afford a MMU, or the monstrosity of Linux. Baremetal or FreeRTOS/ThreadX or similar are enough. They don't need that much power, architectural overkill and security nightmares. Most of them are even formally verified.
throwawaysea 5y ago
As an aside, it’s great to see content on Locals and Odysee. We need these alternative platforms to succeed to diversify the technology utilities our modern society depends on.
justshowpost 5y ago
TL,DR?
pjmlp 5y ago
He missed, on IoT space: - NuttX - Zephyr (ironically a Linux Foundation project) - Azure Sphere OS (It might run Linux kernel, but very custom one) - Azure RTOS - FreeRTOS - Mongoose OS - Mbed - Arduino
bronlund 5y ago
Most of the factors he points to are external, with a couple of internal ones added. In my opinion, the most important one isn't mentioned at all, but has been a long time coming. I had big hopes for Linux back in the days, I was pretty confident that Linux would own Windows and from a technological standpoint, it should have been a walk in the park - Windows being the worst OS ever made. The problem is that same community he speaks so affectionately about. Instead of coming together and making the most awesome OS in the universe, everybody went off and did their own thing. Some would argue that this is a feature of Linux and not a problem, but look where it got us. We didn't get the Microsoft killer, we got a thousand distros. One thousand different Linuxes. Every one started by someone having a beef with all the other ones. That's why we lost.
lucideer 5y ago
This talk is far too long and completely unengaging. I'm about halfway through and I would have fallen asleep if my frustration at how irrelevant the points made sofar wasn't keeping me awake. I've nothing against long talks (this one isn't even very long) but it is too long for two reasons: 1. He's continuously saying with 10 words what he could easily say with 3. It's very artificially drawn out. 2. Most of the points (sofar) aren't relevant, which weakens the overall argument: making less points would make the each of them more focused and compelling. On the (ir)relevance of the points made sofar: - He spends an enormous amount of intro time talking up his apparent qualifications and how he's the only human on the planet qualified to talk about this. I don't care. Allow your arguments to stand on their own merit. - Linux is apparently dying because "they" (the illuminati???) are trying to force Torvalds out of the foundation. What. - Linux is dying because SUSE (a company he used to work for) is being sold. I've been running Linux for over 20 years and SUSE had already fallen out of relevancy when I started. I remember getting a copy of SUSE on a magazine CD, wondering why I hadn't heard of this distro, searching internet reviews and concluding it probably wasn't the future of Linux. It's 2021 and this guy is applying things he learned decades ago in his career as if they've retained relevancy. In his discussion of companies responsible for Linux health, Canonical isn't mentioned, and the general assumption is an ironically "Windows-ish" take that old corporate sponsors are the lifeblood of the Linux community. - In person events are cancelled. Somehow the proposition here is that the worldwide pandemic is targeting Linux and Linux alone. What. Linux may be dying out, and the second half of the talk may have some better arguments but sofar this guy has given me a lot of reasons to completely ignore anything that comes out of his mouth.
a0-prw 5y ago
I couldn't take more than a minute or so. I think people who believe they have something interesting to say should just fucking say it, if they want people to listen to them. That was awful.
clownpenis_fart 5y ago
tenebaum_linux_rant_2.0.txt
garren 5y ago
I don’t follow Linux kernel developments too closely, but if complexity in the Linux kernel is such a significant factor, then what prevents anyone from relying on a kernel without much of that complexity functionality built in (i.e., custom kernel)? Are the changes described just too integrated? It’s been a while since it built a custom kernel, but I seem to recall knobs for everything.
mikewarot 5y ago
Linux has had an amazing run, considering Linus is on the wrong side of the debate with Tanenbaum about microkernels. It is going to implode. Genode, at least, and likely the others, have a process for converting linux drivers into their own systems, of course there they aren't in the kernel. Because of this, the costs of getting a new OS up to speed aren't huge. Fuchsia, Genode, and GNU Hurd are the top contenders in my opinion for the next step in systems. We've been layering band-aids to everything to try to make up for the lack of capability based systems. Bold prediction: Once we get a capability based OS with a reasonable amount of adoption, all the containerizing of applications can go away, and you just throw things into a directory, and run it with ONLY the resources needed to do the job. I, for one, won't miss Virus scanners, and the constant worry that a program might trojan horse everything.

64 points by WoodenChair 5y ago

hr2016 5y ago

Well, Linux definitely sucks. By a chance - is there anything better? Pretty please?.. Actually in case Fuchsia manages to replace - well, I would be happy. But would it really happen?..

dnautics 5y ago
I want to know the answer to this. I have a really good track record of picking things that are about to get hot (julia, elixir, zig). As much as I love linux, I also hate it. I'm ready for the next OS.
- pshirshov 5y ago
  Noone is working on the next general purpose OS for the end user. Maybe apart of Google. For some reason people wish to stick with dated unsafe crap from prehistoric era.
  - hatmatrix 5y ago
    GNU Hurd should be ready any day now...
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      They got audio support in a basic form a few years ago. That's how far behind they are.
    - pshirshov 5y ago
      Ready for what?
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        For being put out to pasture? Right, I'll show myself out...
  - zekrioca 5y ago
    You may do some more research [1]. [1] http://www.barrelfish.org/ http://www.barrelfish.org/
    - pshirshov 5y ago
      Looks like another pile of memory-unsafe C crap: http://git.barrelfish.org/?p=barrelfish;a=blobdiff;f=usr/drivers/enet/enet_module.c;h=e8f11dd91848091e0a4d9a8512f870f741f966b6;hp=a9e3c2d38b939ec0283c7be554333b6ade3ccb67;hb=0b09b6c6ec1971d38d0b474df37a6dcb9e44936c;hpb=29875f3479b15f92412772aa546a1a5ad0a2e0de http://git.barrelfish.org/?p=barrelfish;a=blobdiff;f=usr/dri... This will never become a modern OS. Wasted effort, wasted time, wasted money.
- yissp 5y ago
  [something].js https://xkcd.com/1508/ https://xkcd.com/1508/
  - dnautics 5y ago
    M.E.T.A.L (https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...) - hopefully "pandemic" won't take the place of the 5 years war between 2020 and 2025
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      That depends pretty much on the anti-vaccine folks.
bumblebritches5 5y ago
Fuscia
koolba 5y ago
Linux is like Democracy, it’s the worst except for all the alternatives.
Ekaros 5y ago
Windows
- pshirshov 5y ago
  Sorry, but what is "Windows"?
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Nice little OS, has been around for a bit. Good backwards compatibility to boot.
    - pshirshov 5y ago
      I had a look at it, looks like another inconsistent pile of unsafe C crap stirred with tons of legacy frameworks and complete incoherence. Doesn't look like an OS at all.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Windows is a mix of legacy C code, which started to be migrated into C++ around the Vista time (hence /kernel in VC++) and .NET/COM (WinRT is basically COM with some extras). Modern kernel code makes use of WIL. https://github.com/microsoft/wil https://github.com/microsoft/wil
        jcelerier 5y ago
        > around the Vista time I remember stumbling on the win 3.11 sources on github at some point, C++ was already used back then
        pjmlp 5y ago
        For what would be "userspace" yes, but they were crazy enough to still do COM in C, given that by Windows 95 C++ was still unwelcomed on the kernel. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210824-00/?p=105602 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210824-00/?p=10...
dnautics 5y ago
> Actually in case Fuchsia manages to replace - well, I would be happy. But would it really happen?.. Would you be happy? Google has a poor track record of maintenance, not to mention monstrosities like angular, golang, kubernetes... I shudder to think about what a Google OS would look like.
- pshirshov 5y ago
  Well, fuchsia seems to be better designed and from what I've heard they had intention to rewrite their kernel in Rust. Eventually. Fuchsia seems to be FOSS. So, in case a new userland appears on top of this legacy-free system I, probably, would be happier than I am right now on damn Linux where nothing works as it should and everything segfaults.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    I think rust is a singularly poor choice to write a kernel, due to the datastructures required, poor support and interop between libraries and nostd, in the long run macros obscuring code and making understanding timing attacks difficult, e.g. but that's just my opinion... If you have the resources of google, you might as well write it in another language and apply a proof solver for security assurances (or just use SeL4).
  - tored 5y ago
    Problem is that the software license has become irrelevant for the largest tech companies. In the old days there was a fear among them, and probably rightly so, that their software would be "stolen" if they went open source. But today every large corporation is running projects as open source without any fear. What happened? For one these projects are so complex it is not feasible for Joe the programmer to read thru all of it, it takes a company of the size of Google or Microsoft to manage it. The other thing is that the business model changed. Now they give stuff away for "free" to lock you in and spy on your every move and then monetize it. Third is the close integration of hardware and software, so even if someone forked Fuchsia it would be utterly pointless because of hardware. What Google has shown is that it is possible to operate one of that largest spying agencies in the world all on open source.
amatecha 5y ago
You may want to check out the *BSD OSes like FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD. Just try them. Watch some videos to see what they're about. They might very well appeal to you. I personally think they are great and am embracing them (particularly OpenBSD) over Linux for most new computers I set up.

Alupis 5y ago

Bryan Lunduke revisits this talk every year at linux conventions. Usually good observations. BTW, he loves linux.

gHosts 5y ago
I hate long slow videos? Any slides. He seems sometimes, if I remember previous years, to forget the point is open source, not linux. If a better Open Source OS appears tomorrow, I'd abandon linux for it without a backward glance. If it's closed source, it could be rainbows and ponies and I'd still turn it down. On the otherhand, I bet an Open Source OS could grow any rainbows and ponies I actually need and want.
- Alupis 5y ago
  > to forget the point is open source, not linux. For you, perhaps. But for most companies, they use Linux because it's the best server OS around in regards to performance, compatibility, customizability, footprint, support, etc. Sorry BSD folks, I know BSD is great too, but it's just not as widespread as Linux and therefore doesn't quite have the compatibility and support Linux enjoys.
  - gHosts 5y ago
    The point is it became that _because_ it is open source.
    - Alupis 5y ago
      > The point is it became that _because_ it is open source. I still disagree. Most companies happily pay for their server OS's and support (Red Hat, SUSE, Oracle, etc), and don't even think about the open source aspects. Maybe a long time ago it got traction from being open source, but so is all the BSD's and they aren't nearly as prevalent as Linux is. Something else has to be a factor here besides it being open source. Perhaps you mean it became that way because open source attracted talented developers? Perhaps... although today most contributions to the kernel are from paid developers working for mega corps like Google, Amazon, IBM, etc, who do that as part of their day job. As an aside, I love and support open source projects, I just don't think it really matters for Linux (at least anymore). Plenty of folks would happily use it if it were closed source and proprietary - it's that good today.

raman162 5y ago

This is a long form video, maybe the title should be adjusted to inform that

skibz 5y ago

Much like Google's Fuchsia, FreeBSD is an alternative that has compatibility for Linux binaries.

mathfailure 5y ago
No, it has not, that's a myth. Nothing works there properly.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It works well enough for Playstation developers.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
NetBSD kernel has Linux compatibility. (NetBSD had it for years before FreeBSD.) For simple applications it works well. Fortunately I prefer simple applications.
pshirshov 5y ago
But not an alternative when we need memory safety or just damn 802.11ac wifi.
Delk 5y ago
The kernel's still monolithic, and one of the arguments in the video was core system components becoming unsustainably large. I suppose the community woes the video mentions might apply equally to BSD, although I have no personal experience with how those work in that part of the world. If Google developing Fuchsia and (again, as postulated in the video) perhaps moving focus away from Linux is a concern, it might be worth noting that even if there are corporate backers and sponsors of FreeBSD, I don't think there are companies the size of Google, Intel or even Red Hat contributing massively to its overall development. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of that going on. Pretty much all of the arguments given in the video could be true for FreeBSD or other Unix systems as well, at least if they had the breadth of Linux in terms of hardware support, size and visibility of the community, and corporate connections.

blagie 5y ago

I wish there were a TL;DR, a transcript, or something.

TOMDM 5y ago
To quote his major points - Founders banished - Community in shambles - Companies losing linux focus - Core system components reaching unsustainability - Google building a replacement (Fuschia) - Statistically unlikely to stay active much longer

smoldesu 5y ago

Their summary: - Founders banished - Community in shambles - Companies losing Linux focus - Core system components reaching sustainability - Google building replacement - Statistically unlikely to stay active much longer

dnautics 5y ago
I don't want to put words in Lunduke's mouth, but since it seems to be a politically charged issue, I think that in this video the perspective of why "Founders banished" matters has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with why any given one of them (or all of them) have been banished, the fact that it's all happening at once - whether or not it's a coincidence - suggests a bad future for the ecosystem.
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  I disagree, out-of-touch founders being kicked out is a good thing. It's a sign that the community is strong enough and can move forward irrespective of any one person's opinion. This video has it totally backwards. Like, I get that there is an aspect of founder worship on this forum but there is no inherent value in this beyond the idea that someone can keep control indefinitely, which doesn't matter for an open source project. Maybe it matters if you want to hang onto your company's bank accounts but that's a fundamentally different thing compared to a project that exists entirely on public github.
  - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
    You may have a point in theory, but the harsh reality seems to disagree. Kicking out stupid people may be all good and dandy, but I'm very wary of the people who are harsh proponents of the kicking, whom they represent, and what they stand for. Oh, and what/whom they suggest the "stupid" leader X should be replaced with. Usually their thinking doesn't go that far. The usual pattern I see is: employees at large corporations attacking people who don't have a big corporate affiliation. This may not mean much, but it makes me start thinking about this big picture. And then, I haven't yet seen an open source project where the long-time leader went away because of burnout of some kind or was kicked out, and it started growing, prospering, and kicking ass in general (Python doesn't count, since Guido never really went away). I've seen stagnation at best, and disuse, lack of maintenance, and a fall into obscurity in the vast majority of cases. In other words, there is not enough laissez-faire in "the community" at large to keep the tragedy of commons at bay.

throwawayswede 5y ago

I'm aware that Brian has been trolling with such a title over the years, but I really think that it's the epitome of clickbait. Totally a personal opinion, but I absolutely hate such farcical titles. I'd honestly feel more compelled to watch yet another one of those with a title like "What still sucks about Linux"

TOMDM 5y ago
Agreed. Not to mention he takes ages to say not much. There are some good points buried in here, but it takes him over 5 minutes before he's even on topic.
- mrintegrity 5y ago
  i was grateful for the 1.75x speed option on the video!
ziml77 5y ago
He's not trolling or clickbaiting. The title is referring to a future that we are always teetering on the edge of where Linux fades away. The video is a list of the things that he thinks the Linux community should be looking to fix to avoid that decline.
- throwawayswede 5y ago
  > He's not trolling Yes he is. > or clickbaiting I believe he is. > …he thinks the Linux community should… You might be commenting on the wrong post, because clearly that’s not what the title of the talk says. While we’re on the topic, I think the problem is trying to make a “community” out of every other software a group of people use. I think embedding Linux in Windows is wrong, clearly there are lots of Linux people who think that’s correct. I’m not wrong and neither are they. We just don’t have to be a “community” just because we use Linux. The survival of Linux depends on a lot more than what a random circle of people who use it are arguing about.

butz 5y ago

As long as Linux sucks less than Windows and macOS - I'm a happy Linux user.

hk1337 5y ago
macOS UI > Linux UI > Windows UI but macOS has weird quirks that bumps them down in the CLI space. Linux CLI > macOS CLI > Windows CLI Linux CLI and macOS CLI are really close, I think but Linux beats it.
- ladyanita22 5y ago
  Windows software library >>> macOS software library >> Linux software library
- smoldesu 5y ago
  At the peak of it's game (Mojave), MacOS was really competitive for my workflow. One evening I made a simple realization that kinda trashed it all, though: I was spending more time making MacOS like Linux than I spent making Linux like MacOS. By the time Catalina came out (and trashed 32-bit libs along with it) the value proposition was squandered once again. It's funny how transient the usability of a 'stable' OS can be, even on the Linux side of things. Of course, Windows is still bringing up the rear. WSL is mighty competitive though, and I'm giddy with anticipation of what Windows 11 will do with it.
  - zeusk 5y ago
    Android on W11 is something that was much more possible thanks to the work on WSL and WSLg
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Actually all of that is possible thanks to Android on WinRT, aka Project Astoria.
- scns 5y ago
  Form or function what do we value more?

kvark 5y ago

Linux has never been scale-able, starting from the days of the Tanenbaum–Torvalds debate. You can't grow a monolithic kernel indefinitely. It's amusing how it managed to reach the state it is now.

dnautics 5y ago
can I introduce you to something called x86?
- kvark 5y ago
  That's an interesting analogy! I think it's going to be history as well, just in a much longer term. Apple has jumped the ship already.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    (i'm not arguing it's good, I agree with the video, just pointing out that low-level "inscalability" can be kludged indefinitely, it seems)
  - zekrioca 5y ago
    One should think about archiving and being able to reproduce code consistently before ditching technologies like Apple does.
outworlder 5y ago
Why do you need to grow a kernel indefinitely? Surely there's a limit on what kernelspace is responsible for.
- kvark 5y ago
  I don't want to grow a kernel. Linux grows by 2M LOC a year, as reported by the author of the video. That's just what happens.
  - 5y ago

omgwtfbyobbq 5y ago

On the plus side, rms returned to the FSF about a month after this video was made. Maybe things are slightly less nigh? https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22344910/richard-stallman-returns-free-software-foundation-board-comments https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/22344910/richard-stallman...

lavabiopsy 5y ago
I don't understand why that would be relevant, Richard Stallman has nothing to do with Linux and has never worked on Linux at all.
- type0 5y ago
  relevant link that would otherwise have two of these contradictory copypastas: https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php/Interjection https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php/Interjection edit: the whole point is that people often mean Linux as in some distro and not Linux the Kernel
  - gsich 5y ago
    No. He has nothing to do with Linux (as in the kernel). Parent is right to call it just Linux.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    I don't understand why this is relevant. To use the word from that article, please do not "shitpost" here, let's keep the conversation above ground.
- m463 5y ago
  The linux kernel is only one part of a functional system. RMS contributed gcc, gdb, emacs, gmake and more into the gnu system, which are all used in most distributions. That said, I think the GPL is his most important contribution, because that has kept such projects (such as the linux kernel) available to all.

bbarnett 5y ago

Google is famous for launching projects, spending billions, and then... just dropping them. And just because Google does something, doesn't mean anyone else will use it. Not sure why Google doing something, means certain... anything.

gnabgib 5y ago

This was posted 7 months ago [0] with a fairly sizable discussion (74 comments) [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203471

jlkuester7 5y ago

Man, this does make me wonder if Linux today is the FireFox of 2007.... An absolute juggernaut that is far superior to its cooperate competitors (IE/Safari), but can't quite comprehend what is about to happen when Google releases this little thing called Chrome... Fuchsia is definitely a vastly underrated project (just from the fact that it has survived 5? years without the overlords at Google killing it off should indicate something).

jamesfinlayson 5y ago
Fuschia will survive (I assume Google wants to have an operating system with a license that isn't GPL).
pjmlp 5y ago
Fuchsia is already in production, the Nest now use it.
garren 5y ago
Could fuchsia, as a google product/project, get the kind of traction that has contributed to the success of Linux? I think it possible, but somehow it doesn’t seem realistic. Would google’s competition flock to using google’s proprietary Linux replacement?

yellowapple 5y ago

Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL, on the topic of companies trying to enable transitioning away from Linux onto their own operating systems. On that note, if the end is indeed nigh, then replicating Linux compatibility across as many other platforms as possible - beefing up the existing support on FreeBSD and NetBSD, reintroducing it for OpenBSD, getting it going on something like Haiku - seems like an important next step. Linux the kernel might have numbered days, but Linux the ABI could still have a future. One thing the video misses re: Linux's prognosis is the breadth of hardware/driver support. Linux is, if not the most comprehensive collection of actively maintained device drivers out there, pretty darn close to it. Other platforms implementing Linux's userspace ABI? Big whoop. It's the kernelspace drivers that will entrench Linux for a long while, and it's those drivers that a Linux replacement will need to provide - whether from scratch or through compatibility with Linux's kernelspace APIs - before Linux's death is even possible, let alone probable. Even Fuchsia is highly unlikely to be the Linux replacement Bryan suspects it to be without substantially expanding its hardware support (which is still AFAICT in its infancy; even Haiku supports more hardware, and that's developed with a budget that might as well be a rounding error compared to what Google's able to throw around).

type0 5y ago
> Kinda surprised he didn't mention WSL - How could you make Linux suck more? - You install it on Windows!
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Actually suck less, it has been my option since VMWare made it possible.
  - nix23 5y ago
    Have to agree, Windows sucks less with Linux on it.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      I know UNIX since my introduction to Xenix in 1993, used several flavours of it for what is now about 30 years, was a Linux Journal subscriber for most of its existence, yet all my laptops with exception of an aging Asus Netbook don't run GNU/Linux bare metal, rather Apple, Microsoft or Google systems, go figure.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kgarten 5y ago

I guess there's a kind of humor in the video. Yet, for me Linux has seen by far worse days. I can,remember how Microsoft didnt want to work with us, because we used communist software ... Also Linux is the most common OS on two planets in our solar system :) A 42 min video with content that could be put in 5 minutes (not well reasoned at all, as missing WSL and other systemic threats, like right wing idiots) is just sad.

kazinator 5y ago

Bryan could balance his perspective just a tad by dredging up example of old technologies that are used in production, even mission-critical roles. Not everything that is old is used only by tinkering retrocomputing enthusiasts. E.g. COBOL has had a much longer run than Linux. Not to deny that its glory days are long gone, if it had any, but it's deployed in important roles, not just something in the hands of retro-tinkerers. There is also the fact that Amiga is specific hardware. DOS is also tied to specific hardware. Newer hardware still has compatibility to make DOS work, but at the cost of using a 64 bit machine with gigs of RAM as if it were a turbocharged version of an 80286 from 1985. Maybe an 80386, if a DPMI DOS extender is used. For now, the retrocomputing enthusiast who keeps riding on the back of the supposedly dying Linux horse has a good desktop experience with a brand new computer, which is used to its full potential. This will likely be the case going forward, unless hardware fundamentally changes (like away from the Von Neumann model, type of thing). Linux will be surely dead when it can't make use of the current hardware, when you need to resurrect (or emulate) legacy hardware to be able to play with Linux. (Even in that situation, it will likely be used in production roles, not just retrocomputing hobby situations.)

10GBps 5y ago

Eh, after using Linux mostly as my primary OS and 100% for servers for nearly 30 years I think Linux is only just now in the last 10 years started to come in to its own. The game isn't ending, it has just started! Linux is more than ChromeOS and Android. Everything Internet is Linux, IoT, routers, appliances, cameras, vehicles, the list is endless. Fuchsia, being Google, will be as evil as Chrome. And it may be popular just like Chrome and Windows but that doesn't mean there isn't something better for users who care about control, security, and privacy. There is no way in hell Fuchsia or anything else is going to run the Internet like Linux does. Even the alternate OS's like Fuchsia, Haiku, MacOS, etc don't have server versions. The mammoth Microsoft even failed at servers and they do have server versions. Barring some unforeseen conspiracy, Linux is going to be around for a long, long time.

dcgudeman 5y ago
Why is chrome "evil"?
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I guess mainly because in about 5 years time Web developers can write ChromeOS developer instead on their skillset.
  - dcgudeman 5y ago
    so chrome is "evil" because web developers will be able to create apps for ChromeOS in addition to web apps? Or you are claiming that web apps will only work on chrome?
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      I am claiming that Web === ChromeOS, when Google is done with Firefox, while Apple keeps focusing on native apps.
rurban 5y ago
IoT is not Linux. Most small embedded devices cannot afford a MMU, or the monstrosity of Linux. Baremetal or FreeRTOS/ThreadX or similar are enough. They don't need that much power, architectural overkill and security nightmares. Most of them are even formally verified.

throwawaysea 5y ago

As an aside, it’s great to see content on Locals and Odysee. We need these alternative platforms to succeed to diversify the technology utilities our modern society depends on.

justshowpost 5y ago

TL,DR?

pjmlp 5y ago

He missed, on IoT space: - NuttX - Zephyr (ironically a Linux Foundation project) - Azure Sphere OS (It might run Linux kernel, but very custom one) - Azure RTOS - FreeRTOS - Mongoose OS - Mbed - Arduino

bronlund 5y ago

Most of the factors he points to are external, with a couple of internal ones added. In my opinion, the most important one isn't mentioned at all, but has been a long time coming. I had big hopes for Linux back in the days, I was pretty confident that Linux would own Windows and from a technological standpoint, it should have been a walk in the park - Windows being the worst OS ever made. The problem is that same community he speaks so affectionately about. Instead of coming together and making the most awesome OS in the universe, everybody went off and did their own thing. Some would argue that this is a feature of Linux and not a problem, but look where it got us. We didn't get the Microsoft killer, we got a thousand distros. One thousand different Linuxes. Every one started by someone having a beef with all the other ones. That's why we lost.

lucideer 5y ago

This talk is far too long and completely unengaging. I'm about halfway through and I would have fallen asleep if my frustration at how irrelevant the points made sofar wasn't keeping me awake. I've nothing against long talks (this one isn't even very long) but it is too long for two reasons: 1. He's continuously saying with 10 words what he could easily say with 3. It's very artificially drawn out. 2. Most of the points (sofar) aren't relevant, which weakens the overall argument: making less points would make the each of them more focused and compelling. On the (ir)relevance of the points made sofar: - He spends an enormous amount of intro time talking up his apparent qualifications and how he's the only human on the planet qualified to talk about this. I don't care. Allow your arguments to stand on their own merit. - Linux is apparently dying because "they" (the illuminati???) are trying to force Torvalds out of the foundation. What. - Linux is dying because SUSE (a company he used to work for) is being sold. I've been running Linux for over 20 years and SUSE had already fallen out of relevancy when I started. I remember getting a copy of SUSE on a magazine CD, wondering why I hadn't heard of this distro, searching internet reviews and concluding it probably wasn't the future of Linux. It's 2021 and this guy is applying things he learned decades ago in his career as if they've retained relevancy. In his discussion of companies responsible for Linux health, Canonical isn't mentioned, and the general assumption is an ironically "Windows-ish" take that old corporate sponsors are the lifeblood of the Linux community. - In person events are cancelled. Somehow the proposition here is that the worldwide pandemic is targeting Linux and Linux alone. What. Linux may be dying out, and the second half of the talk may have some better arguments but sofar this guy has given me a lot of reasons to completely ignore anything that comes out of his mouth.

a0-prw 5y ago

I couldn't take more than a minute or so. I think people who believe they have something interesting to say should just fucking say it, if they want people to listen to them. That was awful.

clownpenis_fart 5y ago

tenebaum_linux_rant_2.0.txt

garren 5y ago

I don’t follow Linux kernel developments too closely, but if complexity in the Linux kernel is such a significant factor, then what prevents anyone from relying on a kernel without much of that complexity functionality built in (i.e., custom kernel)? Are the changes described just too integrated? It’s been a while since it built a custom kernel, but I seem to recall knobs for everything.

mikewarot 5y ago

Linux has had an amazing run, considering Linus is on the wrong side of the debate with Tanenbaum about microkernels. It is going to implode. Genode, at least, and likely the others, have a process for converting linux drivers into their own systems, of course there they aren't in the kernel. Because of this, the costs of getting a new OS up to speed aren't huge. Fuchsia, Genode, and GNU Hurd are the top contenders in my opinion for the next step in systems. We've been layering band-aids to everything to try to make up for the lack of capability based systems. Bold prediction: Once we get a capability based OS with a reasonable amount of adoption, all the containerizing of applications can go away, and you just throw things into a directory, and run it with ONLY the resources needed to do the job. I, for one, won't miss Virus scanners, and the constant worry that a program might trojan horse everything.