9 ms·

Also not trivial, given the legitimate hunger and compulsion someone with an overeating problem may have after suffering with it for years. So yes, not an expl

Also not trivial, given the legitimate hunger and compulsion someone with an overeating problem may have after suffering with it for years. So yes, not an explicit time dedication, but you’re being pedantic at that point and the practical reality that a vaccine is a minimal inconvenience is reasonably unavoidable. Obviously exceptions exist, which is what medical exceptions are for etc etc.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> Also not trivial, given the legitimate hunger and compulsion someone with an overeating problem may have after suffering with it for years. Yeah but you could just mandate it. Force them to eat small amounts. Fire them from their jobs, prevent them from traveling, and lock them out of civil society if they do not comply. Make them submit to weekly weigh-ins. They wouldn't like it of course, but neither do the people being coerced into taking vaccines. Point is it's for the greater good, and if reducing their load on the healthcare system saves just one life, it all will have been worth it. Right? I mean while we're just here completely making up values and cost/benefit out of thin air, we can mandate pretty much anything.
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  Being fat isn't contagious. While it does increase medical load, it doesn't cause the people you meet at the restaurant to also increase medical load. We aren't stopping restaurant and party access as some kind of punishment for the unvaxxed. It's because this is one of the major vectors for disease transmission.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    > Being fat isn't contagious. But it does tend to result in worse outcomes when you catch covid, which you can when you go eat at a restaurant. From the vaccinated patrons who can still transmit it. > it doesn't cause the people you meet at the restaurant to also increase medical load. The vaccinated can contract covid and can transmit it to other vaccinated though. So this can't be the reason to ban unvaccinated, because allowing the vaccinated to restaurants will also increase medical load. > We aren't stopping restaurant and party access as some kind of punishment for the unvaxxed. Oh? It sort of seemed like it was since the science on natural immunity was being ignored. > It's because this is one of the major vectors for disease transmission.
  - lenkite 5y ago
    > Being fat isn't contagious. Being vaccinated doesn't mean you are not contagious.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Being vaccinated doesn't mean you are not contagious. Being vaccinated reduces contagion (with known variants other than Delta, it reduces probability of contagious infection, intensity (viral load) of contagious infection, and duration of contagious infection; with Delta it does the first and third.
      - billycorben2 5y ago
        This article is about previous infection. Is there data comparing previous infection to vaccine in terms of contagious properties listed above?
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      The probabilities are very different, and that compounds when infections are exponential. Your argument could equally apply to DUIs:"Driving sober doesn't mean you won't be involved in an accident" - sure, but the likelihood is lowered by a measurable amount.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        > The probabilities are very different, and that compounds when infections are exponential. So? What are the numbers? You seem to have it all figured out, so all I'm asking is how the situations are different, and how exactly you arrived at the conclusion that one merited forced medical procedures and the other did not, based on those numbers. Handwaving about more or different doesn't really cut it because I want clear, unambiguous hard criteria and step by step reasoning for why one particular set of numbers justifies this serious step and another does not.
        LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
- slumpt_ 5y ago
  Never change, HackerNews. <3
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  The load on the medical system from obesity is largely predictable and stable. It's no comparison to how COVID overwhelms the medical system. Nobody is going without necessary surgery or treatment because some other people eat too much food from McDonald's.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Incredible. All these ifs and buts to try twist the situation into exactly the shape that suits you. > The load on the medical system from obesity is largely predictable and stable. It's no comparison to how COVID overwhelms the medical system. And yet I made the comparison. Both increase load on the healthcare system. > Nobody is going without necessary surgery or treatment because some other people eat too much food from McDonald's. Do you have a source for this claim? It's commonly knowledge now that overweight people are a significant burden for the healthcare system, and it is also known that hospitals have had resources shortages, ambulance wait times have been too high, etc at various time in the past. You seem quite sure of yourself that by some miracle of chance, none of that additional load due to obesity has ever caused someone else to have a less favorable outcome.
    - burnished 5y ago
      You're being incredibly argumentative and rude.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        How? Because I don't let implausible and unfounded claims go unchallenged? I get the feeling that you wouldn't be quite so irritated with me (or at least less inclined to contribute nothing but namecalling) if you were capable of forming a coherent argument against what I wrote.
        burnished 5y ago
        I'm trying to let you know that you're being unpleasant to the point that it doesn't seem worth forming an argument.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  But now you’re back at the original comparison of one or two quick injections versus constant monitoring of meals or weigh-ins.
  - maneesh 5y ago
    I mean... I created a wearable device[0] that can detect when you're eating and deliver an electric shock. Why not just mandate every obese person to wear it?[1] [0] https://pavlok.com https://pavlok.com [1] </sarcasm> -- it wasn't made for this purpose.
    - bserge 5y ago
      I'd seriously use something like that if it was stronger, tamper proof and would shock me whenever I'm browsing Reddit (and a blacklist of other garbage just in case).
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Where did this "quick fix" clause ever come into it? It feels to me like it's something that you have retroactively made up to suit one particular argument but which has never been an important point before. The point was always to save lives. I don't remember quick ever factoring into any calculations when people were forced to stay home, their workplaces shut, their education disrupted, their jobs lost, for indeterminate periods of weeks, months, years. Over this past two years we could have collectively lost many tons if only we had some mandates. So I reject your assertion that quick is a material difference between these two scenarios, and my analogy stands.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      No, it came from the beginning of the thread we are currently in. It’s what this thread is about.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        But that has never actually been a thing in the public policy debate about it which is the wider context we're talking about. I think it was just made up now to exclude certain other inconvenient analogous situations like this. How was that tradeoff decided, who decided it and where is the justification? And you can start losing weight in your own home, on day 1. That's faster than even a single shot of vaccine, let alone two shots with a delay, plus boosters etc. So that's not a very satisfactory answer as to why some mandates for the greater good are acceptable and yet others are not.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  You're again misrepresenting the situation. Taking the vaccine is a 2 x 30 minute process (maybe adding 3-4 sick days with mild fever and soreness, to be fair). Losing weight after being overweight/obese is something that you need to do every second of every day for the rest of your life. Also, people who chose not to get vaccinated chose to expose others to their disease. People who chose not to lose weight hurt no one but themselves. The amount of burden you put on someone when you make them take the vaccine is nothing like the amount of burden you put on someone when you make them lose weight. The risks for you if I don't get vaccinated is high, the risk for you if I remain overweight/obese is 0. So, one is an acceptable compulsion, the other is not. How is this so hard to understand? You can also view it the other way around: there is no compulsion or punishment for those who don't get vaccinated. The government can and must mandate a quarantine for everyone. However, since some people are immune, they are exempted from this quarantine.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I think you're just doing everything you can to avoid acknowledging any similarities in the situations. The two situations are not exactly identical in every way of course. But getting bogged down in this minutiae with these construction of rules is missing the point, and such precise rules have never been a feature of covid policies. Mandating overweight people lose weight would benefit their own health and it would take pressure of the healthcare system. Pretty straightforward analogy.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      No, I am pointing out the 2 most relevant differences. You are doing your best to ignore those and look at the similarities. The government, in practice, can only issue mandates and bans that are relatively easy to follow, and extremely urgent. That's why banning radioactive material is easy and has wide support, but banning alcohol or tobacco is not. While the government is extremely corrupt and oligarchic, it's still not a dictatorship that can actually up and decide to ban dancing on some idiot's whim.
      - 5y ago
- LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
  In this hypothetical scenario, the assumption is being made that the collection good is more important than individual liberty. Another issue at play here in the US is that Americans are divided on where the line should be drawn between what can be allowed in the name of the collective good. I think it's quite obviously that the nation is very split on this. There isn't a constructive debate going on about the interplay between these two positions or a compromise. One side (people mandating restrictions) are trying to brute force mandates without interacting, constructively discussing and persuading the other side.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
By the way, sometimes I wish comments would not be deleted because I would have liked to reply to your reply to my reply, and ask what problem you have with what I said? I hope it is obvious I don't actually feel this way toward overweight people -- it's hateful, discriminatory, divisive, bullying, and it goes against everything I believe about freedom people should have to live their lives. And yet being overweight is a detriment to health. And it places additional burden on the healthcare system. So I think it is a good analogy to use, if there was an equally effective one that was less shocking, I would gladly use that instead. See, I can see the "perfect" society where everything is done for "the greater good". Where the ruling class and their alleged experts hand down edicts by which we much live. Everything is mandated accordingly. Nobody may question the mandates or the rulers, lest they be bullied and branded grandma killers / fascists / baby killers / etc. And I can see how yes you might micro optimize this society by forcing people to take vaccines. And by forcing overweight people to lose weight. I don't deny that maybe some people could be "saved" if we had all these mandates. That is not the society I value or want to live in though. And I think that's a very underhanded bullying argument to coerce people into giving up their freedom or having medical treatment they don't want, to suggest that they are responsible for killing others because of choices like this. Because there are hundreds of ways we could all change our choices and indirectly save people,it does not always mean we are responsible for them if we don't. I mean, you take it to the limit and you might well say elderly have passed their used by date, no longer contribute to the greater good, and are increasingly a burden on the healthcare system, so let's turf them out. Every hospital bed they selfishly take up is stealing the life of a sick child who could not be admitted due to the shortage. Or that you are personally responsible for the death of anyone around the world who dies of hunger so long as you have not donated every last penny of your income beyond what you require to barely survive on in a tent. My position is that actually the most dangerous thing facing our society and our children and their children is authoritarianism and the unaccountable and unchecked expansion of power of the ruling class over our lives. Unimaginably more dangerous than covid-19. And I think mine is quite a reasonable position to take. So if someone can be bullied and told they are responsible for killing grandparents and responsible for continuing lockdowns for not wanting to take the vaccine then fine, and we can say with similar intellectual honesty that those bullies calling for mandates are responsible for the next Stalin. EDIT: And one last thing, it's not "those hateful others", aka your fellow citizens, who are responsible for the breakdown of trust in authority and their "experts". It is entirely the fault of the ruling class. Their greed, lies, lust for power and willingness to divide has caused this. You really wonder why people might not have complete blind trust in the politicians, journalists and other self-proclaimed experts who told them we had to invade Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, we had to destroy Syria and Libya, etc.? That it was for their best interest? Remember that? And then they stole their money and sent their sons and daughters away to die? And then they laughed all the way to the bank and did it again.

throwawaylinux 5y ago

> Also not trivial, given the legitimate hunger and compulsion someone with an overeating problem may have after suffering with it for years. Yeah but you could just mandate it. Force them to eat small amounts. Fire them from their jobs, prevent them from traveling, and lock them out of civil society if they do not comply. Make them submit to weekly weigh-ins. They wouldn't like it of course, but neither do the people being coerced into taking vaccines. Point is it's for the greater good, and if reducing their load on the healthcare system saves just one life, it all will have been worth it. Right? I mean while we're just here completely making up values and cost/benefit out of thin air, we can mandate pretty much anything.

snovv_crash 5y ago
Being fat isn't contagious. While it does increase medical load, it doesn't cause the people you meet at the restaurant to also increase medical load. We aren't stopping restaurant and party access as some kind of punishment for the unvaxxed. It's because this is one of the major vectors for disease transmission.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > Being fat isn't contagious. But it does tend to result in worse outcomes when you catch covid, which you can when you go eat at a restaurant. From the vaccinated patrons who can still transmit it. > it doesn't cause the people you meet at the restaurant to also increase medical load. The vaccinated can contract covid and can transmit it to other vaccinated though. So this can't be the reason to ban unvaccinated, because allowing the vaccinated to restaurants will also increase medical load. > We aren't stopping restaurant and party access as some kind of punishment for the unvaxxed. Oh? It sort of seemed like it was since the science on natural immunity was being ignored. > It's because this is one of the major vectors for disease transmission.
- lenkite 5y ago
  > Being fat isn't contagious. Being vaccinated doesn't mean you are not contagious.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Being vaccinated doesn't mean you are not contagious. Being vaccinated reduces contagion (with known variants other than Delta, it reduces probability of contagious infection, intensity (viral load) of contagious infection, and duration of contagious infection; with Delta it does the first and third.
    - billycorben2 5y ago
      This article is about previous infection. Is there data comparing previous infection to vaccine in terms of contagious properties listed above?
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    The probabilities are very different, and that compounds when infections are exponential. Your argument could equally apply to DUIs:"Driving sober doesn't mean you won't be involved in an accident" - sure, but the likelihood is lowered by a measurable amount.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      > The probabilities are very different, and that compounds when infections are exponential. So? What are the numbers? You seem to have it all figured out, so all I'm asking is how the situations are different, and how exactly you arrived at the conclusion that one merited forced medical procedures and the other did not, based on those numbers. Handwaving about more or different doesn't really cut it because I want clear, unambiguous hard criteria and step by step reasoning for why one particular set of numbers justifies this serious step and another does not.
      - LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
slumpt_ 5y ago
Never change, HackerNews. <3
heavyset_go 5y ago
The load on the medical system from obesity is largely predictable and stable. It's no comparison to how COVID overwhelms the medical system. Nobody is going without necessary surgery or treatment because some other people eat too much food from McDonald's.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Incredible. All these ifs and buts to try twist the situation into exactly the shape that suits you. > The load on the medical system from obesity is largely predictable and stable. It's no comparison to how COVID overwhelms the medical system. And yet I made the comparison. Both increase load on the healthcare system. > Nobody is going without necessary surgery or treatment because some other people eat too much food from McDonald's. Do you have a source for this claim? It's commonly knowledge now that overweight people are a significant burden for the healthcare system, and it is also known that hospitals have had resources shortages, ambulance wait times have been too high, etc at various time in the past. You seem quite sure of yourself that by some miracle of chance, none of that additional load due to obesity has ever caused someone else to have a less favorable outcome.
  - burnished 5y ago
    You're being incredibly argumentative and rude.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      How? Because I don't let implausible and unfounded claims go unchallenged? I get the feeling that you wouldn't be quite so irritated with me (or at least less inclined to contribute nothing but namecalling) if you were capable of forming a coherent argument against what I wrote.
      - burnished 5y ago
        I'm trying to let you know that you're being unpleasant to the point that it doesn't seem worth forming an argument.
tshaddox 5y ago
But now you’re back at the original comparison of one or two quick injections versus constant monitoring of meals or weigh-ins.
- maneesh 5y ago
  I mean... I created a wearable device[0] that can detect when you're eating and deliver an electric shock. Why not just mandate every obese person to wear it?[1] [0] https://pavlok.com https://pavlok.com [1] </sarcasm> -- it wasn't made for this purpose.
  - bserge 5y ago
    I'd seriously use something like that if it was stronger, tamper proof and would shock me whenever I'm browsing Reddit (and a blacklist of other garbage just in case).
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Where did this "quick fix" clause ever come into it? It feels to me like it's something that you have retroactively made up to suit one particular argument but which has never been an important point before. The point was always to save lives. I don't remember quick ever factoring into any calculations when people were forced to stay home, their workplaces shut, their education disrupted, their jobs lost, for indeterminate periods of weeks, months, years. Over this past two years we could have collectively lost many tons if only we had some mandates. So I reject your assertion that quick is a material difference between these two scenarios, and my analogy stands.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    No, it came from the beginning of the thread we are currently in. It’s what this thread is about.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      But that has never actually been a thing in the public policy debate about it which is the wider context we're talking about. I think it was just made up now to exclude certain other inconvenient analogous situations like this. How was that tradeoff decided, who decided it and where is the justification? And you can start losing weight in your own home, on day 1. That's faster than even a single shot of vaccine, let alone two shots with a delay, plus boosters etc. So that's not a very satisfactory answer as to why some mandates for the greater good are acceptable and yet others are not.
tsimionescu 5y ago
You're again misrepresenting the situation. Taking the vaccine is a 2 x 30 minute process (maybe adding 3-4 sick days with mild fever and soreness, to be fair). Losing weight after being overweight/obese is something that you need to do every second of every day for the rest of your life. Also, people who chose not to get vaccinated chose to expose others to their disease. People who chose not to lose weight hurt no one but themselves. The amount of burden you put on someone when you make them take the vaccine is nothing like the amount of burden you put on someone when you make them lose weight. The risks for you if I don't get vaccinated is high, the risk for you if I remain overweight/obese is 0. So, one is an acceptable compulsion, the other is not. How is this so hard to understand? You can also view it the other way around: there is no compulsion or punishment for those who don't get vaccinated. The government can and must mandate a quarantine for everyone. However, since some people are immune, they are exempted from this quarantine.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I think you're just doing everything you can to avoid acknowledging any similarities in the situations. The two situations are not exactly identical in every way of course. But getting bogged down in this minutiae with these construction of rules is missing the point, and such precise rules have never been a feature of covid policies. Mandating overweight people lose weight would benefit their own health and it would take pressure of the healthcare system. Pretty straightforward analogy.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    No, I am pointing out the 2 most relevant differences. You are doing your best to ignore those and look at the similarities. The government, in practice, can only issue mandates and bans that are relatively easy to follow, and extremely urgent. That's why banning radioactive material is easy and has wide support, but banning alcohol or tobacco is not. While the government is extremely corrupt and oligarchic, it's still not a dictatorship that can actually up and decide to ban dancing on some idiot's whim.
    - 5y ago
LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
In this hypothetical scenario, the assumption is being made that the collection good is more important than individual liberty. Another issue at play here in the US is that Americans are divided on where the line should be drawn between what can be allowed in the name of the collective good. I think it's quite obviously that the nation is very split on this. There isn't a constructive debate going on about the interplay between these two positions or a compromise. One side (people mandating restrictions) are trying to brute force mandates without interacting, constructively discussing and persuading the other side.

throwawaylinux 5y ago

By the way, sometimes I wish comments would not be deleted because I would have liked to reply to your reply to my reply, and ask what problem you have with what I said? I hope it is obvious I don't actually feel this way toward overweight people -- it's hateful, discriminatory, divisive, bullying, and it goes against everything I believe about freedom people should have to live their lives. And yet being overweight is a detriment to health. And it places additional burden on the healthcare system. So I think it is a good analogy to use, if there was an equally effective one that was less shocking, I would gladly use that instead. See, I can see the "perfect" society where everything is done for "the greater good". Where the ruling class and their alleged experts hand down edicts by which we much live. Everything is mandated accordingly. Nobody may question the mandates or the rulers, lest they be bullied and branded grandma killers / fascists / baby killers / etc. And I can see how yes you might micro optimize this society by forcing people to take vaccines. And by forcing overweight people to lose weight. I don't deny that maybe some people could be "saved" if we had all these mandates. That is not the society I value or want to live in though. And I think that's a very underhanded bullying argument to coerce people into giving up their freedom or having medical treatment they don't want, to suggest that they are responsible for killing others because of choices like this. Because there are hundreds of ways we could all change our choices and indirectly save people,it does not always mean we are responsible for them if we don't. I mean, you take it to the limit and you might well say elderly have passed their used by date, no longer contribute to the greater good, and are increasingly a burden on the healthcare system, so let's turf them out. Every hospital bed they selfishly take up is stealing the life of a sick child who could not be admitted due to the shortage. Or that you are personally responsible for the death of anyone around the world who dies of hunger so long as you have not donated every last penny of your income beyond what you require to barely survive on in a tent. My position is that actually the most dangerous thing facing our society and our children and their children is authoritarianism and the unaccountable and unchecked expansion of power of the ruling class over our lives. Unimaginably more dangerous than covid-19. And I think mine is quite a reasonable position to take. So if someone can be bullied and told they are responsible for killing grandparents and responsible for continuing lockdowns for not wanting to take the vaccine then fine, and we can say with similar intellectual honesty that those bullies calling for mandates are responsible for the next Stalin. EDIT: And one last thing, it's not "those hateful others", aka your fellow citizens, who are responsible for the breakdown of trust in authority and their "experts". It is entirely the fault of the ruling class. Their greed, lies, lust for power and willingness to divide has caused this. You really wonder why people might not have complete blind trust in the politicians, journalists and other self-proclaimed experts who told them we had to invade Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, we had to destroy Syria and Libya, etc.? That it was for their best interest? Remember that? And then they stole their money and sent their sons and daughters away to die? And then they laughed all the way to the bank and did it again.