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It would also financially cripple any poor person that relies on a car to get to work. And public transportation won't be viable in the US until cities finally

It would also financially cripple any poor person that relies on a car to get to work. And public transportation won't be viable in the US until cities finally wrap their head around the reality that you need basic security checkpoints at entrances to discourage riff raff from getting in (like in China). If you've ever ridden BART, you know what I mean.

wffurr 5y ago
BART is uniquely bad in that respect. Significantly worse than other North American cities. Chalk it up to Bay Area dysfunction and inequality. Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon and the total cost of ownership is significantly lower.
- refulgentis 5y ago
  > Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon We're very far away from crossing under 30K, much less 10K
  - cyberbanjo 5y ago
    Used Chevy volt for 5-15k, it seems you can get a sub 10k electric car already?
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      A Volt is a hybrid, not a pure electric. (The Bolt is Chevy’s BEV.)
      - ben_w 5y ago
        Even a hybrid is probably sufficient in this context.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context: “If I had a vote whether to ban combustion engines from my city (cars, trucks, mopeds, leaf blowers - everything), with a relatively short transition period (say 5 years), I'd be in favor.” In that context, the Volt (and other hybrids, plug-in or not) would either be banned or be required to disable their ICE engines in the city. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
        perl4ever 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good But EVs are really not perfect anyway. People say why have two powerplants. The reason is to get rid of the (environmental impact of) 300 mile batteries. 90% of the time, 10% of the battery is enough. From the page above: "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."
        ben_w 5y ago
        Indeed, and that was for the reason of ending emissions within a city. A poor person who commutes with one is likely (even though not guaranteed) to be using it over the sort of distance where the tiny battery is sufficient, so with regard to achieving that goal rather than that method, I think hybrids would probably be sufficient.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        I agree that banning all ICE vehicles in 5 years is not a practical nor worthwhile goal to pursue.
      - gregable 5y ago
        It's in a weird space. It's kinda a pure electric.
      - creato 5y ago
        So what? If it drives a few 10s of miles without burning gas, if everyone used them, that would eliminate probably 90%+ of emission pollution in cities. I feel that the obsession with pure electric has crippled the fight against pollution and CO2 emissions. Every car with 20 miles of battery range is probably a lot more impactful in the fight against climate change than 10% of cars with 200 miles of battery range, and has fewer major tradeoffs (cheaper, limited range/recharging is not an issue, much less need to build an entirely new charging infrastructure).
        sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context is someone positing/supporting a total ban of all ICE in their city and someone arguing that’s disproportionately harmful to the poor because pure EVs are more expensive. In that context, it matters quite a bit that the Volt has an ICE, even though I overall agree with you on the Volt being environmentally beneficial. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    My LEAF cost a little over $30K brand new (before $10K in total rebates). Used LEAFs (and Smart ED/EQs) are readily available in the $5K to $10K range.
- NineStarPoint 5y ago
  BART existing at all puts it ahead of the majority of cities in the US (for reference, per capita San Fansisco has the second most trips on public transit of any city in the US). New York is the only US city that has comparable public transit to international contemporaries. Long decades of poor planing in the US (and in general the low population density) make it a place ill-suited to public transportation. EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here, so here’s hoping you’re right and we’ll reach that point soon.
  - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
    >EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here Here in SW Ontario there are countless people riding those electric scooters or ebikes in the summertime. I’ve even seen old barflies hop on after drinking a pitcher and head on to the next spot. I’m sure the Bay Area has more clement weather year-round than here.
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      I commuted to/from a train on an electric scooter. Not only are they just not viable for any trips longer than 3-4 miles, you can't go up any sort of incline either. Mine was "overclocked" to enable up to 500w of power and I'm 180lbs, but it wouldn't be able to climb even a 10 degree incline at over walking speed. And at least the consumer ones you can find on Amazon are not robust enough to withstand even 6 months of daily use before the tire wears out, battery terminals corrode, and screws start falling out.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        I've used a normal bike and an e-bike and didn't have such issues.
        b9a2cab5 5y ago
        $2k e-bikes are probably more robust than the $600 scooter I was riding and would definitely be my choice next time around. For anyone interested in e-scootering though, avoid the Segway ES series like hell and make sure you do your research.
w4 5y ago
> And public transportation won't be viable in the US until cities finally wrap their head around the reality that you need basic security checkpoints at entrances to discourage riff raff from getting in (like in China). It seems like you're in SF. The bad experiences you have had there do not generalize to all other cities. I've lived in several US and foreign cities that have safe public transit without security checkpoints. Omnipresent security forces shouldn't be necessary if other city and state services are functional.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  US cities I've been to: East Coast city 1: no light rail, buses come every 45min East Coast city 2: no light rail, buses come every 30-45min, but at least they were free West Coast city 1: no light rail, buses come every 45min and cost $$$ if you want to take an express route SF Bay Area: BART is a disaster, CalTrain only works well during peak hours and only if you live in the Peninsula. I literally watched a group of 2 teenagers hop the fare gates, get on, then get off the station before the fare checkers got on. Every station smells like piss and most of the ones in SF proper have shit in them too. BART East Bay -> Fremont/SJ is easily a 2 hour ride because the train moves at sub-30mph in residential areas. Chicago: Trains still move pretty slowly but don't have piss and shit all over them at least. From what I can tell, buses are also not viable for reasonable transportation. Boston: Decent trains in most of the downtown/Cambridge area, but suburbs were pretty much a non-starter. In comparison: Shanghai/Beijing: security checkpoints at subway entrances, getting on/off trains is orderly and trains are clean. Trains run fast because authorities don't care about making too much noise, so you aren't better off driving because the train was running at 25mph. Trains come every 5mins or more often. You can get across the city in under an hour. For the US cities that had light rail, the issues were clearly not due to lack of funding but due to NIMBYism limiting speeds and a refusal to enforce any level of security (in the case of SF). I bet you can get BART to come every 5 mins instead of every 20mins with the same number of trains if you 4x'd the speed to 80-100 mph. BART already does over that speed in long stretches like the Bay tunnel or the long stretches in Fremont so it's not like this requires any sort of re-engineering.
  - namdnay 5y ago
ben_w 5y ago
I think security checkpoints are the wrong solution to the wrong problem. Yes, American public transport and city design does indeed suck — I am not an American, but I have visited for a total of 4 months, used public transport in NYC, Boston, Bay Area, and the SanFran-Davis-Sacremento line — but here in Berlin there aren’t even ticket barriers, and nothing particularly exciting happens here even from the homeless person[0] who begged on my pre-COVID commute. Some fairly fancy busking from time to time, but that’s the peak of excitement. [0] I assume. Just one person, recognised their practiced speech. Might have been selling German equivalent to the Big Issue for all I know, as they didn’t really get in the way of anyone.
- luckylion 5y ago
  Berlin's public transport is pretty dirty though. If I had to live in Berlin, I'd get a car, even if it takes more time. I realize everyone has a different threshold for what they consider dirty, and people voluntarily living in Berlin seem to have a much higher threshold than me, but yeah, I'd prefer some checks in exchange for clean & undamaged public transport.
thefounder 5y ago
>> until cities finally wrap their head around the reality that you need basic security checkpoints at entrances Sounds like you live in a "war zone". I don't know any place in Europe with that kind of security.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Yeah it's bad enough to deal with all that when flying. If this would come to the metro I'd never use it again. All we really have in terms of crime is pickpockets. Adding security will just make them operate more on the streets. We don't have a totalitarian state here like China. That's a good thing.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    I'm not talking about the millimeter wave scanners TSA has where they make you take off your shoes and take out all your stuff. We're talking 1-2 officers who quickly glance inside your bag and maybe a metal detector you walk through, similar to the security at a football game. It's more intended as security theatre by the presence of officers to discourage petty crime than to catch terrorists. Forcing criminals to move to the streets makes public transportation more appealing, I think that's obvious enough.
    - thefounder 5y ago
      >> glance inside your bag and maybe a metal detector Why would you like transportation staff to treat you like a criminal? >> Forcing criminals to move to the streets Maybe a better approach would be to have less criminals rather than to move them around?
      - b9a2cab5 5y ago
        > Why would you like transportation staff to treat you like a criminal? Because I accept that a slight inconvenience will lead to a much better riding experience. For example, Amtrak has aggressive fare checkers onboard (full pass of the train every few minutes) who will remove a lot of the type of people that cause disruptions. If you've already been checked, you have a ticket stub above your seat. Is it a coincidence that Amtrak trains are also very clean and have basically no crime? I feel comfortable using my phone on Amtrak without gripping it with two hands and constantly looking around me to prevent theft - I can't say the same about BART. > Maybe a better approach would be to have less criminals rather than to move them around? SFBA cities' budgets are quantified in the billions. We can afford to work towards having less while simultaneously reducing the locations they have access to for committing crime.
Nbox9 5y ago
Imagine being exposed to some of the most vulnerable and desperate people in The United States and thinking “We should keep them out” instead of “We should help them.”
- krisoft 5y ago
  These are not incompatible thoughts though are they? One can think that we should help the homeless while also think that the public transport is not usable for their own usage while it also acts as a homeless shelter. I’m not living in a city where this is a problem, so maybe my viewpoint is naive here. I want my tax to be spent on helping the homeless, even if that means that I have to pay more, and I also don’t want to sit next to someone on the bus who had no opportunity to wash in the last weeks. I don’t feel that these thoughts are in conflict.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  It’d be quite nice to help them. The SF budget certainly tries, though $50,000 for a tent is a little on the steep side. “Free rein to abuse the subway system and its riders” is however a policy with very limited utility when it comes to helping people, and the costs are very high. Transit systems should keep them out insofar as they are not engaging in transit.
occz 5y ago
These problems do not exist for much of the rest of the worlds public transportation systems. The problem that San Francisco is facing, and that you should attempt to solve instead of spending energy on excluding already poor people from public transportation, is homelessness.
throwawaysea 5y ago
In the least we need better surveillance of public spaces and facial recognition for (limited) use when a crime is involved. If criminals aren’t brought to justice and don’t face consequences, there is no deterrent and they’ll perform more crimes and bigger crimes. It is why BART escalated from isolated crimes to an entire train being raided by 50-60 robbers with no arrests (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bart-robbery-oakland-teens-storm-passenger-train-strongman-thefts/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bart-robbery-oakland-teens-stor...).

wffurr 5y ago

BART is uniquely bad in that respect. Significantly worse than other North American cities. Chalk it up to Bay Area dysfunction and inequality. Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon and the total cost of ownership is significantly lower.

refulgentis 5y ago
> Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon We're very far away from crossing under 30K, much less 10K
- cyberbanjo 5y ago
  Used Chevy volt for 5-15k, it seems you can get a sub 10k electric car already?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    A Volt is a hybrid, not a pure electric. (The Bolt is Chevy’s BEV.)
    - ben_w 5y ago
      Even a hybrid is probably sufficient in this context.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context: “If I had a vote whether to ban combustion engines from my city (cars, trucks, mopeds, leaf blowers - everything), with a relatively short transition period (say 5 years), I'd be in favor.” In that context, the Volt (and other hybrids, plug-in or not) would either be banned or be required to disable their ICE engines in the city. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
        perl4ever 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good But EVs are really not perfect anyway. People say why have two powerplants. The reason is to get rid of the (environmental impact of) 300 mile batteries. 90% of the time, 10% of the battery is enough. From the page above: "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."
        ben_w 5y ago
        Indeed, and that was for the reason of ending emissions within a city. A poor person who commutes with one is likely (even though not guaranteed) to be using it over the sort of distance where the tiny battery is sufficient, so with regard to achieving that goal rather than that method, I think hybrids would probably be sufficient.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        I agree that banning all ICE vehicles in 5 years is not a practical nor worthwhile goal to pursue.
    - gregable 5y ago
      It's in a weird space. It's kinda a pure electric.
    - creato 5y ago
      So what? If it drives a few 10s of miles without burning gas, if everyone used them, that would eliminate probably 90%+ of emission pollution in cities. I feel that the obsession with pure electric has crippled the fight against pollution and CO2 emissions. Every car with 20 miles of battery range is probably a lot more impactful in the fight against climate change than 10% of cars with 200 miles of battery range, and has fewer major tradeoffs (cheaper, limited range/recharging is not an issue, much less need to build an entirely new charging infrastructure).
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context is someone positing/supporting a total ban of all ICE in their city and someone arguing that’s disproportionately harmful to the poor because pure EVs are more expensive. In that context, it matters quite a bit that the Volt has an ICE, even though I overall agree with you on the Volt being environmentally beneficial. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
- sokoloff 5y ago
  My LEAF cost a little over $30K brand new (before $10K in total rebates). Used LEAFs (and Smart ED/EQs) are readily available in the $5K to $10K range.
NineStarPoint 5y ago
BART existing at all puts it ahead of the majority of cities in the US (for reference, per capita San Fansisco has the second most trips on public transit of any city in the US). New York is the only US city that has comparable public transit to international contemporaries. Long decades of poor planing in the US (and in general the low population density) make it a place ill-suited to public transportation. EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here, so here’s hoping you’re right and we’ll reach that point soon.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  >EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here Here in SW Ontario there are countless people riding those electric scooters or ebikes in the summertime. I’ve even seen old barflies hop on after drinking a pitcher and head on to the next spot. I’m sure the Bay Area has more clement weather year-round than here.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    I commuted to/from a train on an electric scooter. Not only are they just not viable for any trips longer than 3-4 miles, you can't go up any sort of incline either. Mine was "overclocked" to enable up to 500w of power and I'm 180lbs, but it wouldn't be able to climb even a 10 degree incline at over walking speed. And at least the consumer ones you can find on Amazon are not robust enough to withstand even 6 months of daily use before the tire wears out, battery terminals corrode, and screws start falling out.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      I've used a normal bike and an e-bike and didn't have such issues.
      - b9a2cab5 5y ago
        $2k e-bikes are probably more robust than the $600 scooter I was riding and would definitely be my choice next time around. For anyone interested in e-scootering though, avoid the Segway ES series like hell and make sure you do your research.

w4 5y ago

> And public transportation won't be viable in the US until cities finally wrap their head around the reality that you need basic security checkpoints at entrances to discourage riff raff from getting in (like in China). It seems like you're in SF. The bad experiences you have had there do not generalize to all other cities. I've lived in several US and foreign cities that have safe public transit without security checkpoints. Omnipresent security forces shouldn't be necessary if other city and state services are functional.

b9a2cab5 5y ago
US cities I've been to: East Coast city 1: no light rail, buses come every 45min East Coast city 2: no light rail, buses come every 30-45min, but at least they were free West Coast city 1: no light rail, buses come every 45min and cost $$$ if you want to take an express route SF Bay Area: BART is a disaster, CalTrain only works well during peak hours and only if you live in the Peninsula. I literally watched a group of 2 teenagers hop the fare gates, get on, then get off the station before the fare checkers got on. Every station smells like piss and most of the ones in SF proper have shit in them too. BART East Bay -> Fremont/SJ is easily a 2 hour ride because the train moves at sub-30mph in residential areas. Chicago: Trains still move pretty slowly but don't have piss and shit all over them at least. From what I can tell, buses are also not viable for reasonable transportation. Boston: Decent trains in most of the downtown/Cambridge area, but suburbs were pretty much a non-starter. In comparison: Shanghai/Beijing: security checkpoints at subway entrances, getting on/off trains is orderly and trains are clean. Trains run fast because authorities don't care about making too much noise, so you aren't better off driving because the train was running at 25mph. Trains come every 5mins or more often. You can get across the city in under an hour. For the US cities that had light rail, the issues were clearly not due to lack of funding but due to NIMBYism limiting speeds and a refusal to enforce any level of security (in the case of SF). I bet you can get BART to come every 5 mins instead of every 20mins with the same number of trains if you 4x'd the speed to 80-100 mph. BART already does over that speed in long stretches like the Bay tunnel or the long stretches in Fremont so it's not like this requires any sort of re-engineering.
- namdnay 5y ago

ben_w 5y ago

I think security checkpoints are the wrong solution to the wrong problem. Yes, American public transport and city design does indeed suck — I am not an American, but I have visited for a total of 4 months, used public transport in NYC, Boston, Bay Area, and the SanFran-Davis-Sacremento line — but here in Berlin there aren’t even ticket barriers, and nothing particularly exciting happens here even from the homeless person[0] who begged on my pre-COVID commute. Some fairly fancy busking from time to time, but that’s the peak of excitement. [0] I assume. Just one person, recognised their practiced speech. Might have been selling German equivalent to the Big Issue for all I know, as they didn’t really get in the way of anyone.

luckylion 5y ago
Berlin's public transport is pretty dirty though. If I had to live in Berlin, I'd get a car, even if it takes more time. I realize everyone has a different threshold for what they consider dirty, and people voluntarily living in Berlin seem to have a much higher threshold than me, but yeah, I'd prefer some checks in exchange for clean & undamaged public transport.

thefounder 5y ago

>> until cities finally wrap their head around the reality that you need basic security checkpoints at entrances Sounds like you live in a "war zone". I don't know any place in Europe with that kind of security.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Yeah it's bad enough to deal with all that when flying. If this would come to the metro I'd never use it again. All we really have in terms of crime is pickpockets. Adding security will just make them operate more on the streets. We don't have a totalitarian state here like China. That's a good thing.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  I'm not talking about the millimeter wave scanners TSA has where they make you take off your shoes and take out all your stuff. We're talking 1-2 officers who quickly glance inside your bag and maybe a metal detector you walk through, similar to the security at a football game. It's more intended as security theatre by the presence of officers to discourage petty crime than to catch terrorists. Forcing criminals to move to the streets makes public transportation more appealing, I think that's obvious enough.
  - thefounder 5y ago
    >> glance inside your bag and maybe a metal detector Why would you like transportation staff to treat you like a criminal? >> Forcing criminals to move to the streets Maybe a better approach would be to have less criminals rather than to move them around?
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      > Why would you like transportation staff to treat you like a criminal? Because I accept that a slight inconvenience will lead to a much better riding experience. For example, Amtrak has aggressive fare checkers onboard (full pass of the train every few minutes) who will remove a lot of the type of people that cause disruptions. If you've already been checked, you have a ticket stub above your seat. Is it a coincidence that Amtrak trains are also very clean and have basically no crime? I feel comfortable using my phone on Amtrak without gripping it with two hands and constantly looking around me to prevent theft - I can't say the same about BART. > Maybe a better approach would be to have less criminals rather than to move them around? SFBA cities' budgets are quantified in the billions. We can afford to work towards having less while simultaneously reducing the locations they have access to for committing crime.

Nbox9 5y ago

Imagine being exposed to some of the most vulnerable and desperate people in The United States and thinking “We should keep them out” instead of “We should help them.”

krisoft 5y ago
These are not incompatible thoughts though are they? One can think that we should help the homeless while also think that the public transport is not usable for their own usage while it also acts as a homeless shelter. I’m not living in a city where this is a problem, so maybe my viewpoint is naive here. I want my tax to be spent on helping the homeless, even if that means that I have to pay more, and I also don’t want to sit next to someone on the bus who had no opportunity to wash in the last weeks. I don’t feel that these thoughts are in conflict.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
It’d be quite nice to help them. The SF budget certainly tries, though $50,000 for a tent is a little on the steep side. “Free rein to abuse the subway system and its riders” is however a policy with very limited utility when it comes to helping people, and the costs are very high. Transit systems should keep them out insofar as they are not engaging in transit.

occz 5y ago

These problems do not exist for much of the rest of the worlds public transportation systems. The problem that San Francisco is facing, and that you should attempt to solve instead of spending energy on excluding already poor people from public transportation, is homelessness.

throwawaysea 5y ago

In the least we need better surveillance of public spaces and facial recognition for (limited) use when a crime is involved. If criminals aren’t brought to justice and don’t face consequences, there is no deterrent and they’ll perform more crimes and bigger crimes. It is why BART escalated from isolated crimes to an entire train being raided by 50-60 robbers with no arrests (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bart-robbery-oakland-teens-storm-passenger-train-strongman-thefts/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bart-robbery-oakland-teens-stor...).