6 ms·

They don’t do a very good job of defining what “treat women badly” means - you can find lots of women in any society who will insist that they’re being treated

They don’t do a very good job of defining what “treat women badly” means - you can find lots of women in any society who will insist that they’re being treated badly, and lots of women in supposedly oppressive societies who will defend traditionalism.

api 5y ago
Being deprived of the opportunity to get an education, physically assaulted, subjected to unfair and biased laws, forbidden from autonomy, and having ones life path dictated from birth? All that sounds like being treated badly. Would you be okay with that?
- Starmina 5y ago
  While I agree with you, I think the point made by OP is simply that everything is subjective. What is "good" and what is "bad" is subjective. Not everyone on earth will have the same definition.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Another challenge is that conservative or traditionalist societies can isolate women from 'dangerous' ideas. Surveys from members and their kids before and after migrating would be interesting to compare.
  - foldr 5y ago
    > “A woman who drives a car will be killed,” says Sheikh Hazim Muhammad al-Manshad That’s the first line of the article. I don’t think it’s really subjective to say that killing women for driving cars counts as treating them badly. (Unless you just want to make some kind of general philosophical point about everything being subjective, but how would that be relevant?)
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  Are those the criteria the study used?
mumblemumble 5y ago
They went into about as much detail as one would expect, given the context: This is a composite of such things as unequal treatment of women in family law and property rights, early marriage for girls, patrilocal marriage, polygamy, bride price, son preference, violence against women and social attitudes towards it (for example, is rape seen as a property crime against men?). Since this is as much a book review as anything else, it can perhaps be forgiven for not going into complete detail. The level of detail you're asking for here is more likely to be found in the book itself. I'm not seeing any indication, though, that they're just going off of some sort of opinion survey, as you would seem to be implying in your critique. That list above includes a lot of things that can be fairly objectively measured, either directly or through proxy variables.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  Patrilocality and son preference have nothing to do with abuse of women. Patrilocality is largely pragmatic and son preference is a symptom of population control unless the author is brave enough to claim that abortion specifically against girls is bad (I doubt that lol)
  - ajuc 5y ago
    > brave enough to claim that abortion specifically against girls is bad why would it be brave? Firing people is ok. Firing people for being of particular gender is bad.
    - jimbob45 5y ago
      https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2012/05/problem-and-solution-mismatch-son-preference-and-sex-selective-abortion-bans https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2012/05/problem-and-solution-... Not sure what anyone getting fired has to do with anything. Son preference refers to sex selection, not employment termination based on gender.
    - bsza 5y ago
      The main argument behind pro-choice is that a fetus isn't a person. Otherwise abortion would mean killing people. If you really believe your analogy of firing people is a good one, then you have already recognized the aborted fetus as a person.
nocturnial 5y ago
> They don’t do a very good job of defining what “treat women badly” means In the first(!) paragraph it was mentioned. It was actually the very first sentence in that paragraph: “A woman who drives a car will be killed,” says Sheikh Hazim Muhammad al-Manshad. If you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, it's not mathematically defined what "treating women badly" means. But the very first sentence should give you a clue what they're talking about.
IncRnd 5y ago
Apparently, I didn't read the same article you read. What is your definition of "treat women badly"? Do you not realize that when women are killed for driving a car or for speaking with a man, that they likely will say they are treated well, when they are interviewed next to their husband and family?

api 5y ago

Being deprived of the opportunity to get an education, physically assaulted, subjected to unfair and biased laws, forbidden from autonomy, and having ones life path dictated from birth? All that sounds like being treated badly. Would you be okay with that?

Starmina 5y ago
While I agree with you, I think the point made by OP is simply that everything is subjective. What is "good" and what is "bad" is subjective. Not everyone on earth will have the same definition.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Another challenge is that conservative or traditionalist societies can isolate women from 'dangerous' ideas. Surveys from members and their kids before and after migrating would be interesting to compare.
- foldr 5y ago
  > “A woman who drives a car will be killed,” says Sheikh Hazim Muhammad al-Manshad That’s the first line of the article. I don’t think it’s really subjective to say that killing women for driving cars counts as treating them badly. (Unless you just want to make some kind of general philosophical point about everything being subjective, but how would that be relevant?)
thinkingemote 5y ago
Are those the criteria the study used?

mumblemumble 5y ago

They went into about as much detail as one would expect, given the context: This is a composite of such things as unequal treatment of women in family law and property rights, early marriage for girls, patrilocal marriage, polygamy, bride price, son preference, violence against women and social attitudes towards it (for example, is rape seen as a property crime against men?). Since this is as much a book review as anything else, it can perhaps be forgiven for not going into complete detail. The level of detail you're asking for here is more likely to be found in the book itself. I'm not seeing any indication, though, that they're just going off of some sort of opinion survey, as you would seem to be implying in your critique. That list above includes a lot of things that can be fairly objectively measured, either directly or through proxy variables.

jimbob45 5y ago
Patrilocality and son preference have nothing to do with abuse of women. Patrilocality is largely pragmatic and son preference is a symptom of population control unless the author is brave enough to claim that abortion specifically against girls is bad (I doubt that lol)
- ajuc 5y ago
  > brave enough to claim that abortion specifically against girls is bad why would it be brave? Firing people is ok. Firing people for being of particular gender is bad.
  - jimbob45 5y ago
    https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2012/05/problem-and-solution-mismatch-son-preference-and-sex-selective-abortion-bans https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2012/05/problem-and-solution-... Not sure what anyone getting fired has to do with anything. Son preference refers to sex selection, not employment termination based on gender.
  - bsza 5y ago
    The main argument behind pro-choice is that a fetus isn't a person. Otherwise abortion would mean killing people. If you really believe your analogy of firing people is a good one, then you have already recognized the aborted fetus as a person.

nocturnial 5y ago

> They don’t do a very good job of defining what “treat women badly” means In the first(!) paragraph it was mentioned. It was actually the very first sentence in that paragraph: “A woman who drives a car will be killed,” says Sheikh Hazim Muhammad al-Manshad. If you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, it's not mathematically defined what "treating women badly" means. But the very first sentence should give you a clue what they're talking about.

IncRnd 5y ago

Apparently, I didn't read the same article you read. What is your definition of "treat women badly"? Do you not realize that when women are killed for driving a car or for speaking with a man, that they likely will say they are treated well, when they are interviewed next to their husband and family?