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High-powered motorcycle vibrations might impact iPhone camera
- sgt 5y agoThe camera becomes blurry and shaky - completely useless. It's a common and well known issue if you happen to mount the phone on your handlebars (do NOT do this). I have several friends who've had this happen in the last year. All the way up to 12 Pro.
- spockz 5y agoI wonder. Can this same happen on a dashboard mounted phone in a car?
- thefounder 5y agoNo Source: personal experience
- sgt 5y agoCars are better insulated and vibrate less in the first place. But if you do offroad and gravel with lots of vibrations, I think it might increase the risk.
- sandworm101 5y agoDashboards are not bolted directly to engines. The issue is that motorcycle parts are more directly connected to the engine. Sportbikes normally use the engine as a structural member, bolting all the other bits and pieces to the engine block. So vibrations through motorcycle handlebars and such are more intense than those on the dash of even an extreme muscle car.
- dharmab 5y ago> Sportbikes normally use the engine as a structural member, bolting all the other bits and pieces to the engine block. Before someone asks if this could be "fixed": This is a desirable trait. It improves the frame stiffness of the vehicle, resulting in better handling. https://youtu.be/FlbkAhCNvik?t=453 https://youtu.be/FlbkAhCNvik?t=453
- sgt 5y agoRefreshing to see a link to F9 on HN.
- spockz 5y agoPresumably the steer bar is detached somewhat as it turns the front wheel which is sprung? Also, I can imagine that the vibrations also make it tiring to hold. So just like a proper sander can be used without getting tired arms from the shaking.
- technoplato 5y agoIgnore the motorcycle bit completely and just think physics You could trigger this on any oscillating “body” if that body is oscillating at a certain frequency and amplitude combination. It just so happens motorcycle engines produce that combination. There would certainly be others. tHe sustained nature of the shaking would also be cause for concern but I didn’t see any mention of duration in the support article
- numpad0 5y agoPotentially? But it’s a known issue only to motorcyclists and (pedal)cyclists. idk why Apple is saying this is due to engine vibration but I think it has more to do with hard suspensions.
- ChuckNorris89 5y agoTheir explanation seems legit but I do wonder how Apple would handle warranty claims to damages done to the camera system from strong vibrations. Like, does the iPhone internally log strong vibrations sensed through the gyro/accelerometer to invalidate warranty claims? I'm asking since most phones also have moisture stickers inside to invalidate warranty claims to to water damage.
- nerdwaller 5y agoA friend of mine has had his phone replaced twice due to this before figuring out the cause, however now that there’s a formal publication in it I’d bet that changes.
- alias_neo 5y ago> does the iPhone internally log strong vibrations sensed through the gyro/accelerometer I would lean heavily towards "yes". The why, I guess we'll never know the real answer, but I remember rumours, years ago, of manufacturers denying warranty claims based on "dropped" devices thanks to the gyro data.
- nicce 5y agoThis gets closer to slippery-slope argument, because in that case everything happens on black box software and is easier to manipulate or error prone. Apple can just say that logs say your gyro tells this and this. At which point you can’t trust for the warranty of your phone? Moisture stickers can be validated by third party in theory at least.
- technoplato 5y agoSo too with gyroscopic readings unless you think those are fraudulent
- maxerickson 5y agoThere is likely characteristic physical damage from the vibration.
- _Microft 5y agoThis seems like something that could be detected while it’s happening (*). Maybe iPhones could warn users before lasting damage occurs? (*) Edit: I was assuming that damage to the camera accumulates over time. If it happens on short time scales or as a single event as nicce's reply seems to suggest, this renders the notification idea moot ofcourse.
- nicce 5y agoIt is very likely that it is too late on that point. It might be hard to detect or pick up your phone from your pockets when driving. Even harder if it is on chassis somewhere.
- technoplato 5y agoCould be interesting sci fi technology to “wrap” the sensitive parts in a shell kind of like a roly poly bug (it would have to be more than a wrap and more of securing foam that disappears, but interesting to ponder)
- HPsquared 5y agoSimpler to have a little locking mechanism for when the camera isn't in use. Like the head parking "ramp" on some HDDs.
- interpol_p 5y agoThis is a great thread by a motorcycle and iPhone camera enthusiast detailing the problems that can arise from broken sensor-shift and OIS modules https://twitter.com/sdw/status/1436657008904740866 https://twitter.com/sdw/status/1436657008904740866
- mrosett 5y agoRoad bikes too. I wrecked my iPhone 8’s autofocus after riding ~1000 miles with it on a handlebar mount. Obviously there’s no engine vibration but chip-and-seal roads have a similar effect.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- gregdetre 5y agoHmmm, interesting. That hasn't been my personal experience.
- runnerup 5y agoIndeed, several years ago I took an iPhone 6S Plus on a roadtrip on a motorcycle, Yamaha FZ-600 for about 2500 miles, no issues. But I also had a quiet stock exhaust?
- hjnilsson 5y ago6S did not have the OIS or autofocus features that lead to this problem. There are no moving lens elements in that phone.
- HPsquared 5y ago6S Plus did have OIS (in any case all cameras have autofocus which involves moving lens elements). Probably the vibration in that situation didn't match the resonant modes of the camera components. It's probably a fairly rare event where everything lines up just right.
- qwertox 5y agoI've read the same, but my Pixel 3 had no issues after ~12.000km, half on it on asphalt, the other half on gravel and some rougher parts. Then a Motorola and a Xiaomi which I guess shared each half of the ~12.000km (two phones mounted, Xiaomi replaced Motorola halfway, both in parallel to the Pixel 3), where both of these devices (not the Pixel) were making automatic photos at geofenced spots during the ride (one of the street, to record the wet/dry condition, one of the selfie camera to record the sky condition cloud/sunny). Though I do use a rubbery holder with good damping properties [1] and only recently moved over to a fixed one out of aluminum [2] for one of the phones, which could start causing this issue. [1] https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06Y6C3P43 https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06Y6C3P43 [2] https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07TQDMX6Z https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07TQDMX6Z
- smoyer 5y agoI live about 5 miles (on the same road) as the local Harley Davidson dealership and would love it if HD riders left the stock pipes on their bikes. While the engines do vibrate, don't dismiss the additional concussive force of an unmuffled exhaust.
- bserge 5y agoI hear them outside and am happy for them, they don't have tinnitus. Yet. I used to like the sound of engines, still do, but I never understood the farty exhaust tbh.
- amelius 5y agoHint: they wear protective earplugs.
- bserge 5y agoThe bastards!
- RhysU 5y agoThe protective earplugs are to combat wind roar and hearing loss over a lifetime. The non-Harley folk wear them too.
- whartung 5y agoCorrect. My bike has a stock exhaust and sounds like a sewing machine, but I wear earplugs mostly to protect against the constant wind noise at speed.
- tbihl 5y agoIs that not accomplished by wearing a helmet? I haven't been on a motorcycle in over a decade, but I recall it being pretty quiet in the helmet.
- bserge 5y agoWell, yeah, violent shaking of the internal components can damage them.
- behohippy 5y agoIt isn't just iPhone, and it can happen on any motorcycle regardless of the engine size or power. The OIS in my Pixel 4a is destroyed from using a mount for less than an hour.
- alias_neo 5y agoJust to be clear, this isn't about using the camera while mounted on the bike, but having the phone mounted ever actually damages the camera for any use, mounted or otherwise?
- technoplato 5y agoTLDR shaking the phone anywhere at any time with certain amplitude / frequency combinations will permanently damage sensitive components and make pics look like you’ve got ALS again Yeah they actually go into more interesting detail than expected from a support article and detail how (not an expert so it could just be wool over my eyes Apple BS but doesn’t smell that way here) the OIS and closed loop AF work in that article. Basically sensitive gadgets shouldn’t be exposed to certain frequency / amplitude combinations because sensitive gadgets rely on well, not being shaken out of whack.
- behohippy 5y agoExactly. It doesn't even require the operation of the image stabilization for the damage to happen. The damage happens when it reaches that magic frequency where the components break.
- Factorium 5y agoICE motorbikes seem like the most obvious type of vehicle to immediately mandate 100% EV, with an aggressive target like 12 months (to clear out existing inventory). The segment and vehicles themselves are small enough that this changeover can be made fairly easily, with immense benefits for noise pollution in cities.
- marcinzm 5y agoBatteries are heavy and bulky so difficult to fit in a bike. Moreover the noise is on purpose so they'd just add a loudspeaker or something instead.
- oneplane 5y agoPerhaps they could just put the noise in an headphone and leave the rest of us in peace. They get the experience they want, and we get to ignore it.
- sigzero 5y agoYeah, good luck with that.
- et2o 5y agoThis would destroy an already distressed and shrinking industry. EV motorcycles are comparatively very expensive and with limited range. None of the major manufacturers outside of Harley Davidson have commercialized an electric motorcycle yet. Furthermore, given the relative scarcity and lower miles traveled of motorcycles, banning ICE bikes would have limited environmental effect.
- dan-robertson 5y agoI suspect that the noise is a big appeal to motorcycle owners.
- xattt 5y agoIs there an industry name for this specific phenomenon? Where goods are purchased/owned/carried solely for an intimidating appearance without any intent of using for their intended purpose?
- 1970-01-01 5y ago"Attaching your iPhone to vehicles with small-volume or electric engines, such as mopeds and scooters, may lead to comparatively lower-amplitude vibrations, but if you do so a vibration dampening mount is recommended." Oh boy I can see it now: Apple to unveil $500 All Aluminum Motorcycle Mounting Kit with vibration dampening sensors and hyper shock absorbing rubber. Then we watch them do something incredibly stupid like pair the mounts to phones so you can't just unhook it and let a friend borrow it.
- elephantum 5y agoI killed at least three iPhone cameras this way with my KTM 690.
- abotsis 5y agoYears ago I had the vibrator in my phone go out as a result of being on my handlebars. Was really surprised to not see something about this come out earlier tbh.
- garyfirestorm 5y ago‘Dampening’ - it’s damping not dampening.
- blamazon 5y agoSee also: amalgamation vs. amalgam. I hear people use amalgamation all the time, when the word they actually meant is amalgam, the result of amalgamation. However, language is democratic, and the preference of people like you and me will be pushed into the proverbial footnotes over centuries as similar sounding words amalgamate into synonyms. So why bother correcting people ;)
- 14 5y agoI wonder what the signs of degradation are? I use my phone attached to my handle bars and the phone shakes so much that I can have the camera app open and see the picture vibrating, it won’t actually let me take a picture or video. If I start the video then the bike it will record but blurry. I’m on an iPhone 8 so might have older camera less sensitive to this.
- tomxor 5y ago> Attaching your iPhone to vehicles with small-volume or electric engines, such as mopeds and scooters, may lead to comparatively lower-amplitude vibrations. No superbikes for you Apple users :D - recoils in anticipation of onslaught of downvotes - In all fairness I expect it's going to be difficult to design anything with such small delicate moving parts to be invulnerable to arbitrary frequency vibrations. It can also be challenging to accurately model the resonant frequency response of composite "stuff" prior to manufacturing it (many bridges have failed). Better luck with the next model I guess...
- vzaliva 5y agoI think the problematic engines are big Harley twins which vibrate like hell and run relatively low revs. Superbikes engines are usually operate on high RPMs and vibrate less.
- dharmab 5y agoI keep my iPhone in my jacket pocket and use the bluetooth module on my helmet. I also have a Garmin GPS on the handebar of my touring bike, although in 2021 you can get GPS built right into the bike's instrument panel. (To be fair, my most preferred navigation method on long trips is to tape a piece of paper with handwritten notes to the fuel tank anyway.)
- tomxor 5y ago> (To be fair, my most preferred navigation method on long trips is to tape a piece of paper with handwritten notes to the fuel tank anyway.) Nice to know I'm not alone. This is how I drive cars long distance (but without taping it to a fuel tank), smartphones are handy for quick short navigation, but I feel uncomfortable trusting it for longer journeys - I want to know where i'm going and how i'm going there. The funny thing is that the act of writing down a summary of the journey, even with diagrams is usually enough for me to remember the whole thing.
- kristianpaul 5y agoBuy a gopro then?
- mgraupner 5y agoFor navigation?
- dharmab 5y agoPeople mount phones to their handlebars for GPS navigation and to use as speedometers on bikes that did not come with one from the factory (e.g. dirt bike conversions in places where that is legal)
- spectre3d 5y agodharmab is correct, the use on dirt bike handles is common, doing things a GoPro can’t. On the camera side, a GoPro is fixed-focus and has a fixed aperture of (usually) f/2.8 and varies the exposure, shutter speed and frame rate unless set. There is no autofocus to damage. However, there are also no navigation apps for GoPro.
- ffhhj 5y agoJust put it in foam inside a case.
- hprotagonist 5y agoThis is well known. Popular/good mount manufacturers have offered vibration dampeners for some time now. https://www.quadlockcase.com/products/vibration-dampener https://www.quadlockcase.com/products/vibration-dampener https://hondogarage.com/products/buzz-kill-vibration-isolator https://hondogarage.com/products/buzz-kill-vibration-isolato...
- ibaikov 5y agoThis exact thing happened to my friends who goes on a cycle trip daily. He had his samsun s8+ attached to the habdlebar. The phone is damaged now - camera shakes, can't focus, etc.
- amelius 5y agoIf a handlebar can kill a phone, has anyone else wondered what it can do to one's hands and arms?
- anaganisk 5y agoAre you comparing Nature’s evolution marvel Vs a factory process, ensured to maximise profits? Well you may not be far tho. https://www.smh.com.au/national/motorbike-riders-risk-impotence-say-doctors-20081123-gdt3ya.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/motorbike-riders-risk-impote...
- reustle 5y agoThis happened to my Samsung S20 Ultra camera ($1500~) and Samsung refused to even look at it. I think they're aware.
- andrey-g 5y agoYep, killed two on my thumper.
- aitchnyu 5y agoRigid car phone holders routinely fall off for me thanks to frequent potholes in India. The ones with adjustable shoulder and elbow joint shake violently but don't dislodge, as an inadvertent feature. Its time for new generation of phone mounts.