9 ms·

How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.

errantmind 5y ago
Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option
- swayvil 5y ago
  We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc. China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict. Makes you think
president 5y ago
It's a good question. Assuming war is the only option on the table: 1. Would Americans be in favor of (relatively) short term destruction in favor of long term prosperity for their children and future generations? 2. Would the US be able to win a conventional war against China? I believe the answer to #1 is no. I don't think anybody knows the answer to #2.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  On 1, let's not pretend that short term destruction necessarily leads to long term prosperity. We've "won" most of our recent wars, long term prosperity was not the result. On 2, there is no conventional war with a nuclear power.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > there is no conventional war with a nuclear power. True. But maybe there can be a purely conventional war between two nuclear powers.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      If you want to play Russian roulette, go for it. Please don't force me and billions of others into it.
brnt 5y ago
Western countries irrevocably recognizing Taiwan would be a start.
- ff7c11 5y ago
  Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.
  - serf 5y ago
    > Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos. until what point? inaction is generally one of the biggest causes of death and suffering in historical warfare.
    - refenestrator 5y ago
      That's really easy to say when it's not you or your kids on the front line. Beyond just Taiwan, the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. Worth considering if you're in favor of more of that in the name of human rights.
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."
        refenestrator 5y ago
        What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 years. Xi is pretty worrying but until he starts doing that, let's not agitate for killing a bunch of people just in case.
Gray0Ed 5y ago
Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.
- stingrae 5y ago
  HK doesn't really have value to China other than making the case to its population that it never stands down or loses. Economically HK isn't that big of a deal compared to the rest of China at this point.
  - hker 5y ago
    If it were true, China would not have delayed its Anti-Sanctions Law in Hong Kong [1]. Hong Kong is huge in supporting the Finance of China. > But the Hong Kong government can only welcome the stock listing opportunity to reinforce Hong Kong as the world’s premier IPO destination, especially at a time when the introduction of the national security law has raised concerns about maintaining the city as a global financial hub. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-china-delaying-draft-anti-sanctions-law-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-chi...
    - stingrae 5y ago
      At a very simple level you can compare the GDP of PRC=$14.72T vs the GDP of HK=$349.5B from 2020.
      - sebmellen 5y ago
        But that is a myopic comparison. The strategic value of Hong Kong’s (semi)-open capital markets is that they act as a conduit between a totalitarian isolationist state and the rest of the world. The US’s capital markets support international trade in a somewhat similar way, and are thus innately valuable even without accounting for the productivity of American workers.
      - gscott 5y ago
Vadoff 5y ago
Economic sanctions are the best ways to punish a country

errantmind 5y ago

Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option

swayvil 5y ago
We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc. China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict. Makes you think

president 5y ago

It's a good question. Assuming war is the only option on the table: 1. Would Americans be in favor of (relatively) short term destruction in favor of long term prosperity for their children and future generations? 2. Would the US be able to win a conventional war against China? I believe the answer to #1 is no. I don't think anybody knows the answer to #2.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
On 1, let's not pretend that short term destruction necessarily leads to long term prosperity. We've "won" most of our recent wars, long term prosperity was not the result. On 2, there is no conventional war with a nuclear power.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > there is no conventional war with a nuclear power. True. But maybe there can be a purely conventional war between two nuclear powers.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    If you want to play Russian roulette, go for it. Please don't force me and billions of others into it.

brnt 5y ago

Western countries irrevocably recognizing Taiwan would be a start.

ff7c11 5y ago
Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.
- serf 5y ago
  > Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos. until what point? inaction is generally one of the biggest causes of death and suffering in historical warfare.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    That's really easy to say when it's not you or your kids on the front line. Beyond just Taiwan, the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. Worth considering if you're in favor of more of that in the name of human rights.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."
      - refenestrator 5y ago
        What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 years. Xi is pretty worrying but until he starts doing that, let's not agitate for killing a bunch of people just in case.

Gray0Ed 5y ago

Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.

stingrae 5y ago
HK doesn't really have value to China other than making the case to its population that it never stands down or loses. Economically HK isn't that big of a deal compared to the rest of China at this point.
- hker 5y ago
  If it were true, China would not have delayed its Anti-Sanctions Law in Hong Kong [1]. Hong Kong is huge in supporting the Finance of China. > But the Hong Kong government can only welcome the stock listing opportunity to reinforce Hong Kong as the world’s premier IPO destination, especially at a time when the introduction of the national security law has raised concerns about maintaining the city as a global financial hub. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-china-delaying-draft-anti-sanctions-law-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-chi...
  - stingrae 5y ago
    At a very simple level you can compare the GDP of PRC=$14.72T vs the GDP of HK=$349.5B from 2020.
    - sebmellen 5y ago
      But that is a myopic comparison. The strategic value of Hong Kong’s (semi)-open capital markets is that they act as a conduit between a totalitarian isolationist state and the rest of the world. The US’s capital markets support international trade in a somewhat similar way, and are thus innately valuable even without accounting for the productivity of American workers.
    - gscott 5y ago

Vadoff 5y ago

Economic sanctions are the best ways to punish a country