6 ms·

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hu

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be framed as paternal.

michaelt 5y ago
You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but it's unclear what community protection that provides. Vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus. They may be contagious for a shorter period on average but the magnitude is still unknown. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 Since the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the unvaccinated. The virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated so all of us can expect to be exposed multiple times throughout our lives. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    Vaccination almost certainly reduces transmission. https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carriers-didnt-spread-virus-in-public-spaces-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carrier... RNA levels spike to the same levels on PCR, but they decline faster, and culturable amounts of virus are lower in breakthrough infections, indicating a higher proportion of viral debris in breakthrough infections rather than virus: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v... Even if you take the worst numbers out there vaccines still eliminate 50% of infections. And symptomology, viral load and transmissibility are correlated -- which means the vaccines is likely to be effictatious against transmissibility just like it is against disease. The worst-case idea that breakthrough infections, even though they're much less severe, produce identical risk of transmission does not make any sense at all. I would bet money that if everyone was vaccinated that the R0 of delta would be less than 1.0 and we would not have epidemic spread and that breakthrough superspreaders are incredibly rare.
    - nradov 5y ago
      What is your scientific basis for betting that Prof. Pollard is incorrect? Even though vaccination likely reduces the risk of transmission, we have no evidence that even a very high level of vaccination would be sufficient to reduce R0 below 1.0. It's impossible to reach 100% coverage and even countries with high vaccination levels are still experiencing uncontrolled community spread. We can flatten the curve to an extent (useful for reducing impact on the healthcare system), but it's unlikely that we can significantly reduce the area under the curve.
      - lamontcg 5y ago
        What evidence does he have of actual transmission? I want to see actual studies with humans with breakthrough infections giving infections to other humans. I'd like to see one contact tracing case where a breakthrough infection was the index patient that spread it to multiple people at a given venue. I've already posted studies which contradicts the idea that breakthrough infections are equivalent to unvaccinated infections in terms of actual live viral load, which should show up as reduced transmissibility. And the reduction in severity of symptoms with vaccination is highly unlikely to come without a corresponding reduction in transmissibility. What is his scientific data showing that viral loads, symptoms and transmissibility have somehow become completely decoupled? And we seem to have forgotten that most of the spread of this disease is caused by individual superspreaders. Only 20% of the infections are responsible for 80% of the forward transmission. If vaccines reduce severe transmission the same way they reduce severe disease then they could very well have a disproportional impact on r0. > It's impossible to reach 100% coverage The fact that we can't hit 100% coverage doesn't imply that vaccines in the population that we can vaccinate aren't highly effective at reducing transmission. Also if you're just making an argument by authority, then go watch all the recent TWiV episodes. I don't necessarily agree with Herr Professor Doktor Racaniello about everything (delta really is a lot more transmissible/virulent), but the whole crew there would tend to agree with me, and wants to see the real transmissibility studies with real humans infecting real humans.
        nradov 5y ago
  - michaelt 5y ago
    > it's unclear what community protection that provides Maybe against community spread of infection. The protection vaccines provide against overloaded hospitals, tragic avoidable deaths and paralysing additional lockdowns and mask policies is clear, though.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      The Yale/Harvard/Stanford team at https://covidestim.org https://covidestim.org estimates that R has receded under 1 for most states / counties. Much better than a month ago. This is a good indication we are past peak delta. The medical system was stretched in places, but held. While the vaccines help keep the pandemic under control and the human cost bearable, it doesn't follow that we need 100% vaccination rate for community protection.
  - makomk 5y ago
    Not only that, but there seems to be a campaign against the press actually informing people about the limited effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing infection and spread. The stat that actually matters is the relative reduction in risk of vaccinated people catching Covid-19 compared to unvaccinated - it's what dictates things like whether it's possible to get herd immunity via vaccination, and whether events that would turn into superspreading incidents without vaccination still will now. But there's this narrative being pushed that it's wrong and misleading based on nonsense stats like the total percentage of cases which were unvaccinated over a time period that includes a major wave which ended before widespread vaccinations were available, or the absolute risk of someone who's vaccinated catching it (which is worthless as it depends mostly on the prevalence of the virus, and Covid spreads exponentially). This all seems to be done in order to blame unvaccinated people - and more specifically unvaccinated Republican voters - for the fact that Covid is still spreading and causing deaths and economic damage. (Vaccination rates are also dangerously low amongst black Democrat voters, but of course it'd be politically unacceptable to blame them in the same way). The press keeps pushing the narrative that we could end Covid and all the damage it's doing if not for those evil unvaxxed people, even though this doesn't seem to be borne out by the experience of countries with higher vaccination rates or the scientific evidence.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Humans are not rational creatures. Our beliefs can override rationality & that's true regardless of how smart you think you are. That's why you have Christian Scientists being convicted for child abuse/neglect for not providing a reasonable standard of medical care ("reasonable" being defined as "commonly accepted behaviors in our society"). Similar issues around beliefs would apply around vaccines, especially with extremely high levels of mistrust of the opposite party AND a historic amount of anti vaxxers generally. Would Democrats be accepting the vaccine so quickly if the bulk of the rollout happened under Trump? I don't know but I certainly had misgivings that the Trump government was playing politics fast-tracking the vaccine that evaporated when Biden came to power for some reason. I probably would have still taken the vaccine, but is that because I'm being rational or because I'm anti anti-vaxxers?
  - bradlys 5y ago
    There is some just skepticism of anything that happens under Trump. The dude talked about injecting bleach into your veins. Come on.
    - loonster 5y ago
      He never talked about putting bleach in your veins. He spoke about putting UV light and disinfectants inside the body. Both are obscure, but real treatments. Edit: https://youtu.be/zicGxU5MfwE https://youtu.be/zicGxU5MfwE
      - croon 5y ago
        This is Trump minutes before the infamous quotes: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/AA47/production/_111919534_trumpgetty2.jpg https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/AA47/production/...
twstdsistrs84 5y ago
> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunity -- which has been shown in several studies to be more robust and durable than vaccinated immunity. More specifically - natural antibodies bind to more epitopes across several different proteins on the SARS-COV2 virus. Vaccine induced antibodies bind to epitopes only found on the original version of the S-protein. In my opinion, this 'fragile' immunity produced by the covid vaccines is going to exert selective pressure on the virus leading to new variants and immune escape. tl;dr: vaccine mandates using for covid vaccines are not applicable when sterilizing immunity isn't produced.
- cbdumas 5y ago
  > covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant
  - twstdsistrs84 5y ago
    That's nice. Your politicized data contradicts less-politicized data coming out of Israel showing vaccinated catching covid at a higher rate than the unvaccinated. What are your thoughts on the CDC having different reporting criteria for the vaccinated and unvaccinated? For instance - vaccinated individuals have a lower max cycle threshold in PCR testing than unvaccinated. Additionally, many unvaccinated are forced to test regularly while vaccinated are not -- do you think this might also skew the data being published by the cdc?
  - angelzen 5y ago
    > 10. Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et al. Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31; https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387external https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387external Not particularly supportive of the thesis your are arguing for. Perhaps you could narrow down a bit the range of papers that support 'vaccines prevent infection / transmission' thesis?
tzs 5y ago
In a society in which if you do something stupid that causes massive but not immediately fatal injuries to yourself you will be taken to an emergency room and likely given expensive treatment even if you do not have adequate insurance or enough money of your own to pay for that treatment, thereby passing the cost on to the rest of us in terms of either higher medical costs or higher taxes, it is a lot harder for it to be just about hurting yourself.
- angelzen 5y ago
  See e.g. obesity crisis. Or medicalized end-of-life costs. Sadly, we pay for expensive stuff people do to their health all the time.
  - pell 5y ago
    Obesity is in itself a sickness in many cases. I think the implication that people "do it to themselves" really ignores the large pile of evidence that shows that it's really difficult to treat it effectively. Similarly other examples such as alcoholism or other substance addiction suffer from the same issue. When it comes to vaccine hesitation I am not sure where to draw the line. It's a very emotional topic apparently and it seems rational arguments only go so far. That said, I think if a society only treats those medical emergencies deemed to have a "non-egoistical" cause Pandora's box will come to haunt us sooner or later. We should save humans whenever we can. That's just the cost of doing business so to speak.
titzer 5y ago
> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Right. It's more like running red lights in an absolutely massive armored vehicle. Little risk to self, potentially fatal consequences for others.
xnx 5y ago
Similar to drunk driving laws.
HonestOp001 5y ago
No. Seat belt laws are put in place by car insurance industries. The states that do not have them have the insurance industry lean heavily on the legislature on how much money it will save each user. Then the commercials are run about how you do not want to see a person launched from their car and impaled on the power pole. The populace is increasingly being treated as children and pretend adults in leadership. We will force you to wear a seat belt or else. Force you to take a vaccine, circumstances be damned. The ACLU prior to their destruction pre power grab warned us all about what is about to happen… more things will be forced upon us “for our own good.” We are about to have a purge of the government and never has a purge of a government gone well.
- justwanttolearn 5y ago
  further to this, a car manufactured can be liable if the seat belt does not work. You can sue the car manufacture company. You cannot sure Pzifer for example for vaccine side effects.
justwanttolearn 5y ago
I disagree with people using or referencing to the seat belt law. A seatbelt can be removed and adjusted to a person. A vaccine cannot. Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently. I agree that the demographic that are hit the hardest exponentially by covid should protect themselves (60+, obese, other underlying conditions) but everyone else should use discretion and if you don't plan on getting it, there should be alternate measures in place.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  That a seat belt can be adjusted does not change the discussion, even a little bit, as to whether seat belt laws are paternal, or whether COVID vaccinations are of communal consideration. > Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently. Even if society had an extraordinary scientific revolution where medicine was conducted on the basis of a special science just for your body, it would still not change the framing of whether vaccination is of communal concern.
mkr-hn 5y ago
Can you imagine ICUs already overwhelmed by covid in a world without seatbelts and airbags? Or ever-increasing safety standards in general. Times like this emphasize how what seems like individual choices can have major social consequences.
landemva 5y ago
'But vaccination is a community thing...' A vaccine goes into an individual body, so it is a personal thing subject to medical privacy.
kcplate 5y ago
You can choose to wear a seatbelt. You can’t un-inject a substance from my body.

michaelt 5y ago

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but it's unclear what community protection that provides. Vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus. They may be contagious for a shorter period on average but the magnitude is still unknown. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 Since the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the unvaccinated. The virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated so all of us can expect to be exposed multiple times throughout our lives. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- lamontcg 5y ago
  Vaccination almost certainly reduces transmission. https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carriers-didnt-spread-virus-in-public-spaces-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carrier... RNA levels spike to the same levels on PCR, but they decline faster, and culturable amounts of virus are lower in breakthrough infections, indicating a higher proportion of viral debris in breakthrough infections rather than virus: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v... Even if you take the worst numbers out there vaccines still eliminate 50% of infections. And symptomology, viral load and transmissibility are correlated -- which means the vaccines is likely to be effictatious against transmissibility just like it is against disease. The worst-case idea that breakthrough infections, even though they're much less severe, produce identical risk of transmission does not make any sense at all. I would bet money that if everyone was vaccinated that the R0 of delta would be less than 1.0 and we would not have epidemic spread and that breakthrough superspreaders are incredibly rare.
  - nradov 5y ago
    What is your scientific basis for betting that Prof. Pollard is incorrect? Even though vaccination likely reduces the risk of transmission, we have no evidence that even a very high level of vaccination would be sufficient to reduce R0 below 1.0. It's impossible to reach 100% coverage and even countries with high vaccination levels are still experiencing uncontrolled community spread. We can flatten the curve to an extent (useful for reducing impact on the healthcare system), but it's unlikely that we can significantly reduce the area under the curve.
    - lamontcg 5y ago
      What evidence does he have of actual transmission? I want to see actual studies with humans with breakthrough infections giving infections to other humans. I'd like to see one contact tracing case where a breakthrough infection was the index patient that spread it to multiple people at a given venue. I've already posted studies which contradicts the idea that breakthrough infections are equivalent to unvaccinated infections in terms of actual live viral load, which should show up as reduced transmissibility. And the reduction in severity of symptoms with vaccination is highly unlikely to come without a corresponding reduction in transmissibility. What is his scientific data showing that viral loads, symptoms and transmissibility have somehow become completely decoupled? And we seem to have forgotten that most of the spread of this disease is caused by individual superspreaders. Only 20% of the infections are responsible for 80% of the forward transmission. If vaccines reduce severe transmission the same way they reduce severe disease then they could very well have a disproportional impact on r0. > It's impossible to reach 100% coverage The fact that we can't hit 100% coverage doesn't imply that vaccines in the population that we can vaccinate aren't highly effective at reducing transmission. Also if you're just making an argument by authority, then go watch all the recent TWiV episodes. I don't necessarily agree with Herr Professor Doktor Racaniello about everything (delta really is a lot more transmissible/virulent), but the whole crew there would tend to agree with me, and wants to see the real transmissibility studies with real humans infecting real humans.
      - nradov 5y ago
- michaelt 5y ago
  > it's unclear what community protection that provides Maybe against community spread of infection. The protection vaccines provide against overloaded hospitals, tragic avoidable deaths and paralysing additional lockdowns and mask policies is clear, though.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    The Yale/Harvard/Stanford team at https://covidestim.org https://covidestim.org estimates that R has receded under 1 for most states / counties. Much better than a month ago. This is a good indication we are past peak delta. The medical system was stretched in places, but held. While the vaccines help keep the pandemic under control and the human cost bearable, it doesn't follow that we need 100% vaccination rate for community protection.
- makomk 5y ago
  Not only that, but there seems to be a campaign against the press actually informing people about the limited effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing infection and spread. The stat that actually matters is the relative reduction in risk of vaccinated people catching Covid-19 compared to unvaccinated - it's what dictates things like whether it's possible to get herd immunity via vaccination, and whether events that would turn into superspreading incidents without vaccination still will now. But there's this narrative being pushed that it's wrong and misleading based on nonsense stats like the total percentage of cases which were unvaccinated over a time period that includes a major wave which ended before widespread vaccinations were available, or the absolute risk of someone who's vaccinated catching it (which is worthless as it depends mostly on the prevalence of the virus, and Covid spreads exponentially). This all seems to be done in order to blame unvaccinated people - and more specifically unvaccinated Republican voters - for the fact that Covid is still spreading and causing deaths and economic damage. (Vaccination rates are also dangerously low amongst black Democrat voters, but of course it'd be politically unacceptable to blame them in the same way). The press keeps pushing the narrative that we could end Covid and all the damage it's doing if not for those evil unvaxxed people, even though this doesn't seem to be borne out by the experience of countries with higher vaccination rates or the scientific evidence.
vlovich123 5y ago
Humans are not rational creatures. Our beliefs can override rationality & that's true regardless of how smart you think you are. That's why you have Christian Scientists being convicted for child abuse/neglect for not providing a reasonable standard of medical care ("reasonable" being defined as "commonly accepted behaviors in our society"). Similar issues around beliefs would apply around vaccines, especially with extremely high levels of mistrust of the opposite party AND a historic amount of anti vaxxers generally. Would Democrats be accepting the vaccine so quickly if the bulk of the rollout happened under Trump? I don't know but I certainly had misgivings that the Trump government was playing politics fast-tracking the vaccine that evaporated when Biden came to power for some reason. I probably would have still taken the vaccine, but is that because I'm being rational or because I'm anti anti-vaxxers?
- bradlys 5y ago
  There is some just skepticism of anything that happens under Trump. The dude talked about injecting bleach into your veins. Come on.
  - loonster 5y ago
    He never talked about putting bleach in your veins. He spoke about putting UV light and disinfectants inside the body. Both are obscure, but real treatments. Edit: https://youtu.be/zicGxU5MfwE https://youtu.be/zicGxU5MfwE
    - croon 5y ago
      This is Trump minutes before the infamous quotes: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/AA47/production/_111919534_trumpgetty2.jpg https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/AA47/production/...

twstdsistrs84 5y ago

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunity -- which has been shown in several studies to be more robust and durable than vaccinated immunity. More specifically - natural antibodies bind to more epitopes across several different proteins on the SARS-COV2 virus. Vaccine induced antibodies bind to epitopes only found on the original version of the S-protein. In my opinion, this 'fragile' immunity produced by the covid vaccines is going to exert selective pressure on the virus leading to new variants and immune escape. tl;dr: vaccine mandates using for covid vaccines are not applicable when sterilizing immunity isn't produced.

cbdumas 5y ago
> covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant
- twstdsistrs84 5y ago
  That's nice. Your politicized data contradicts less-politicized data coming out of Israel showing vaccinated catching covid at a higher rate than the unvaccinated. What are your thoughts on the CDC having different reporting criteria for the vaccinated and unvaccinated? For instance - vaccinated individuals have a lower max cycle threshold in PCR testing than unvaccinated. Additionally, many unvaccinated are forced to test regularly while vaccinated are not -- do you think this might also skew the data being published by the cdc?
- angelzen 5y ago
  > 10. Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et al. Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31; https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387external https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387external Not particularly supportive of the thesis your are arguing for. Perhaps you could narrow down a bit the range of papers that support 'vaccines prevent infection / transmission' thesis?

tzs 5y ago

In a society in which if you do something stupid that causes massive but not immediately fatal injuries to yourself you will be taken to an emergency room and likely given expensive treatment even if you do not have adequate insurance or enough money of your own to pay for that treatment, thereby passing the cost on to the rest of us in terms of either higher medical costs or higher taxes, it is a lot harder for it to be just about hurting yourself.

angelzen 5y ago
See e.g. obesity crisis. Or medicalized end-of-life costs. Sadly, we pay for expensive stuff people do to their health all the time.
- pell 5y ago
  Obesity is in itself a sickness in many cases. I think the implication that people "do it to themselves" really ignores the large pile of evidence that shows that it's really difficult to treat it effectively. Similarly other examples such as alcoholism or other substance addiction suffer from the same issue. When it comes to vaccine hesitation I am not sure where to draw the line. It's a very emotional topic apparently and it seems rational arguments only go so far. That said, I think if a society only treats those medical emergencies deemed to have a "non-egoistical" cause Pandora's box will come to haunt us sooner or later. We should save humans whenever we can. That's just the cost of doing business so to speak.

titzer 5y ago

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Right. It's more like running red lights in an absolutely massive armored vehicle. Little risk to self, potentially fatal consequences for others.

xnx 5y ago

Similar to drunk driving laws.

HonestOp001 5y ago

No. Seat belt laws are put in place by car insurance industries. The states that do not have them have the insurance industry lean heavily on the legislature on how much money it will save each user. Then the commercials are run about how you do not want to see a person launched from their car and impaled on the power pole. The populace is increasingly being treated as children and pretend adults in leadership. We will force you to wear a seat belt or else. Force you to take a vaccine, circumstances be damned. The ACLU prior to their destruction pre power grab warned us all about what is about to happen… more things will be forced upon us “for our own good.” We are about to have a purge of the government and never has a purge of a government gone well.

justwanttolearn 5y ago
further to this, a car manufactured can be liable if the seat belt does not work. You can sue the car manufacture company. You cannot sure Pzifer for example for vaccine side effects.

justwanttolearn 5y ago

I disagree with people using or referencing to the seat belt law. A seatbelt can be removed and adjusted to a person. A vaccine cannot. Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently. I agree that the demographic that are hit the hardest exponentially by covid should protect themselves (60+, obese, other underlying conditions) but everyone else should use discretion and if you don't plan on getting it, there should be alternate measures in place.

threatofrain 5y ago
That a seat belt can be adjusted does not change the discussion, even a little bit, as to whether seat belt laws are paternal, or whether COVID vaccinations are of communal consideration. > Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently. Even if society had an extraordinary scientific revolution where medicine was conducted on the basis of a special science just for your body, it would still not change the framing of whether vaccination is of communal concern.

mkr-hn 5y ago

Can you imagine ICUs already overwhelmed by covid in a world without seatbelts and airbags? Or ever-increasing safety standards in general. Times like this emphasize how what seems like individual choices can have major social consequences.

landemva 5y ago

'But vaccination is a community thing...' A vaccine goes into an individual body, so it is a personal thing subject to medical privacy.

kcplate 5y ago

You can choose to wear a seatbelt. You can’t un-inject a substance from my body.