5 ms·

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

core-utility 5y ago
And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.
- 1270018080 5y ago
  "Everything is health based if you want it to be." What is the point of this comment? He is mandating a vaccine during a pandemic.
- landryraccoon 5y ago
  This argument is so tired. It applies to almost every single service provided by any government anywhere. New traffic regulations? Everyone needs transportation to get somewhere. Controlling transport controls everything. This is a road to tyranny, etc, etc.. New worker's regulations? Everyone needs a job in our economy! Controlling wages controls people's lives! This is authoritarianism, etc... New taxes? Everything you need to survive could be taxed! When does it end?? etc, etc.. The most minor policy change anywhere runs into this utterly inane argument. Updated food standards? Building codes? Public hearing to add a stop sign? When will this government overreach end??? It's tired, it's pointless, it's been said millions of times by the same libertarian/anarchists for a century. It adds nothing new to the conversation.
- question000 5y ago
  I mean he answered these questions. The line is drawn here.
- wk_end 5y ago
  Well, I'm not exactly sure what the line is. In the US, as with all things related to government power, it's decided jointly through the work of the three branches of government and the factors that influence them - democratic appeal, the constitution, jurisprudence, and so on. At any rate, "vaccination for a highly infectious, potentially deadly virus" indisputably counts as "health". Everything might be health-based if you want it to be (maybe), but the nature of the American system hopefully and usually minimizes room for abuse of that power - and certainly there's no appearance of abuse of that power here, now.
- cbdumas 5y ago
  That line would be drawn through elections, legislation, and court decisions. Decisions like the one OP was referring to [0] where the Supreme Court found that compulsory vaccination is within the state's power, and further that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
- not2b 5y ago
  Slippery slope arguments are a way of avoiding discussing whether a particular proposal is good, by suggesting that they will lead to other, less positive developments. Better to evaluate each action on its own. Vaccination requirements have been a standard practice for well over a hundred years now, and the case for mandating a vaccine for Covid-19 is much, much better than the case for mandating many other vaccines that are already required. This is health-based, clearly, and not just "if you want it to be".
- albertop 5y ago
  In Australia government now controls how much alcohol people can consume in their locked down homes. They are searching all bags and things coming into the building. That is the line now. How far it will go we will see.
  - albertop 5y ago
    Also: In one of the most callous examples of exclusionary state politics in practice, last year the Queensland government denied a 14-year-old double-lung transplant patient from NSW access to his specialist doctor, declaring that Queensland hospitals were for Queenslanders.
api 5y ago
It'll also indirectly purge the fed of people who think celebrities and YouTube are more trustworthy sources of health advice than actual doctors.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Exactly. I'd be tempted to do the same if i were an employer just to increase the average IQ and thinking skills of my workers...
  - api 5y ago
    It's not IQ at all. It's thinking skills and also emotional maturity. Many of the nuttiest conspiritards I've met have what seems to be a very high IQ. High native intelligence makes it easier to learn stuff but it also makes it easier to rationalize insanity and think yourself into corners. I think emotional maturity factors into it because it enables you to see past plays to your ego like "take the red pill and now you are special and know secret knowledge THEY don't want you to know!" One of the drivers of this nonsense is the ego driven desire to be special and have secret knowledge.
rajin444 5y ago
The smallpox vaccine worked (works) much better than the covid vaccine. I don't think this is an honest comparison.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Fyi, the smallpox vaccine isn't as effective as the covid one...
- Daishiman 5y ago
  The COVID vaccine is effective at preventing mass ICU occupancy. The smallpox vaccine is exceptionally effective when compared to other vaccines. Most other vaccines require 3-4 applications for reasonable immunity; same as COVID.
  - rajin444 5y ago
    COVID mutates too fast and the covid vaccines do no provide sterilizing immunity. The smallpox vaccine provides sterilizing immunity, which enables eradication. I agree the COVID vaccine is good at reducing severe cases and preventing death.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    Don't pretend to be at all concerned about ICU capacity if you also support mass firings of nurses who won't take the vaccine, which is another of the "prongs" being rolled out by Biden today.
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      So you support having unvaccinated nurses in hospitals full of people with compromised immune systems? How does that work?
      - rajin444 5y ago
        If this is a major concern testing daily is the only option. The covid vaccine's efficacy wanes over time.
swader999 5y ago
They've got only 21 days of funding until the debt ceiling is breached. So you may still lose your pay regardless.
swayvil 5y ago
Bad. I prefer to have a choice. The, "Trust the authority. It's for your own good." argument does not sway me.
- thrill 5y ago
  You do have a choice. Take the vaccine if you want to work in the federal government or find another job. The government doesn't owe you or anyone else a job.
  - swayvil 5y ago
    That's a really poisonous argument.
    - yongjik 5y ago
      So is saying "Never trust an authority."
      - swayvil 5y ago
        I did not say, "never trust an authority". You need to get your eyes checked.
      - encryptluks2 5y ago
        I'd just like to point out the US has justified deadly experiments and acts of war only to later apologize saying they made a terrible mistake time and time again. I thinking questioning the authority here, especially one that has such a poor reputation, is a good idea.
  - tbrownaw 5y ago
    A Hobson's choice is probably not what someone wanting a choice has in mind.
_red 5y ago
Blacks need to get over the irrational fear of "Tuskegee". They need to be forced to take these vaccines. right?
jdcjciejdb 5y ago
Absolutely. This also paved the way for Buck v. Bell. There is no better use of state power than forced sterilization (public health).
gorwell 5y ago
It's not comparable. Smallpox has a radically higher mortality rate, more contagious, worse side effects, and applies to both the young and old. "The risk of death after contracting the disease was about 30%, with higher rates among babies. Often those who survived had extensive scarring of their skin, and some were left blind." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
bassman9000 5y ago
Explain this: https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/ https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-man...

core-utility 5y ago

And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.

1270018080 5y ago
"Everything is health based if you want it to be." What is the point of this comment? He is mandating a vaccine during a pandemic.
landryraccoon 5y ago
This argument is so tired. It applies to almost every single service provided by any government anywhere. New traffic regulations? Everyone needs transportation to get somewhere. Controlling transport controls everything. This is a road to tyranny, etc, etc.. New worker's regulations? Everyone needs a job in our economy! Controlling wages controls people's lives! This is authoritarianism, etc... New taxes? Everything you need to survive could be taxed! When does it end?? etc, etc.. The most minor policy change anywhere runs into this utterly inane argument. Updated food standards? Building codes? Public hearing to add a stop sign? When will this government overreach end??? It's tired, it's pointless, it's been said millions of times by the same libertarian/anarchists for a century. It adds nothing new to the conversation.
question000 5y ago
I mean he answered these questions. The line is drawn here.
wk_end 5y ago
Well, I'm not exactly sure what the line is. In the US, as with all things related to government power, it's decided jointly through the work of the three branches of government and the factors that influence them - democratic appeal, the constitution, jurisprudence, and so on. At any rate, "vaccination for a highly infectious, potentially deadly virus" indisputably counts as "health". Everything might be health-based if you want it to be (maybe), but the nature of the American system hopefully and usually minimizes room for abuse of that power - and certainly there's no appearance of abuse of that power here, now.
cbdumas 5y ago
That line would be drawn through elections, legislation, and court decisions. Decisions like the one OP was referring to [0] where the Supreme Court found that compulsory vaccination is within the state's power, and further that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
not2b 5y ago
Slippery slope arguments are a way of avoiding discussing whether a particular proposal is good, by suggesting that they will lead to other, less positive developments. Better to evaluate each action on its own. Vaccination requirements have been a standard practice for well over a hundred years now, and the case for mandating a vaccine for Covid-19 is much, much better than the case for mandating many other vaccines that are already required. This is health-based, clearly, and not just "if you want it to be".
albertop 5y ago
In Australia government now controls how much alcohol people can consume in their locked down homes. They are searching all bags and things coming into the building. That is the line now. How far it will go we will see.
- albertop 5y ago
  Also: In one of the most callous examples of exclusionary state politics in practice, last year the Queensland government denied a 14-year-old double-lung transplant patient from NSW access to his specialist doctor, declaring that Queensland hospitals were for Queenslanders.

api 5y ago

It'll also indirectly purge the fed of people who think celebrities and YouTube are more trustworthy sources of health advice than actual doctors.

LatteLazy 5y ago
Exactly. I'd be tempted to do the same if i were an employer just to increase the average IQ and thinking skills of my workers...
- api 5y ago
  It's not IQ at all. It's thinking skills and also emotional maturity. Many of the nuttiest conspiritards I've met have what seems to be a very high IQ. High native intelligence makes it easier to learn stuff but it also makes it easier to rationalize insanity and think yourself into corners. I think emotional maturity factors into it because it enables you to see past plays to your ego like "take the red pill and now you are special and know secret knowledge THEY don't want you to know!" One of the drivers of this nonsense is the ego driven desire to be special and have secret knowledge.

rajin444 5y ago

The smallpox vaccine worked (works) much better than the covid vaccine. I don't think this is an honest comparison.

LatteLazy 5y ago
Fyi, the smallpox vaccine isn't as effective as the covid one...
Daishiman 5y ago
The COVID vaccine is effective at preventing mass ICU occupancy. The smallpox vaccine is exceptionally effective when compared to other vaccines. Most other vaccines require 3-4 applications for reasonable immunity; same as COVID.
- rajin444 5y ago
  COVID mutates too fast and the covid vaccines do no provide sterilizing immunity. The smallpox vaccine provides sterilizing immunity, which enables eradication. I agree the COVID vaccine is good at reducing severe cases and preventing death.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  Don't pretend to be at all concerned about ICU capacity if you also support mass firings of nurses who won't take the vaccine, which is another of the "prongs" being rolled out by Biden today.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    So you support having unvaccinated nurses in hospitals full of people with compromised immune systems? How does that work?
    - rajin444 5y ago
      If this is a major concern testing daily is the only option. The covid vaccine's efficacy wanes over time.

swader999 5y ago

They've got only 21 days of funding until the debt ceiling is breached. So you may still lose your pay regardless.

swayvil 5y ago

Bad. I prefer to have a choice. The, "Trust the authority. It's for your own good." argument does not sway me.

thrill 5y ago
You do have a choice. Take the vaccine if you want to work in the federal government or find another job. The government doesn't owe you or anyone else a job.
- swayvil 5y ago
  That's a really poisonous argument.
  - yongjik 5y ago
    So is saying "Never trust an authority."
    - swayvil 5y ago
      I did not say, "never trust an authority". You need to get your eyes checked.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      I'd just like to point out the US has justified deadly experiments and acts of war only to later apologize saying they made a terrible mistake time and time again. I thinking questioning the authority here, especially one that has such a poor reputation, is a good idea.
- tbrownaw 5y ago
  A Hobson's choice is probably not what someone wanting a choice has in mind.

_red 5y ago

Blacks need to get over the irrational fear of "Tuskegee". They need to be forced to take these vaccines. right?

jdcjciejdb 5y ago

Absolutely. This also paved the way for Buck v. Bell. There is no better use of state power than forced sterilization (public health).

gorwell 5y ago

It's not comparable. Smallpox has a radically higher mortality rate, more contagious, worse side effects, and applies to both the young and old. "The risk of death after contracting the disease was about 30%, with higher rates among babies. Often those who survived had extensive scarring of their skin, and some were left blind." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

bassman9000 5y ago

Explain this: https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/ https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-man...