11 ms·

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think sho

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

amatecha 5y ago
Yeah, I know someone who said for basically their entire adult life "if I ever get like that, just shoot me" and meant it quite seriously. Unfortunately, they indeed spent their last few years gradually degrading in the throes of dementia. Very sad to see, and even more sad to know they would have absolutely hated being left to "rot" in such a way. The only consolation is the person hopefully didn't "know"? Who knows? :\
- IncRnd 5y ago
  People say all sorts of things, but if they don't commit to writing directions down, how are people supposed to know what the person really wanted? Also, someone might say one thing, until death becomes immanent, and then they realize they want something else.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    I have written a formal, witnessed statement of my wishes, in the event that I'm unable to utter them. My physician has a copy; there's a copy in my desk-drawer at home, with my will. I understand that different health authorities here have different policies on the registration and application of such "living wills". I have no confidence that if I get sick in the wrong place, my statement will even be noticed, let alone respected. Also, there's no reason why a paramedic coming to my home would know to look in my desk-drawer (I live on my own), and so discover that I don't want any CPR, ever. And ultimately, these living wills are advisory only; medics can't be sued for ignoring them. It's a bloody mess. I really hope I don't ever get demented.
gerdesj 5y ago
There are organisations in the EU that will assist suicide in certain circumstances. Sir T Pratchett wrote extensively about being on the wrong end of dementia. He didn't have much to say about abortion when he was dealing with cognitive decline.
Sebb767 5y ago
I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wanted and if their mental state clear enough to make a decision like this. Lastly, not killing these people is the "safe choice" - you're not getting sued for not killing a person. In the end, it probably boils down to this.
- supperburg 5y ago
  You are a person who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. That’s why suicide will never be accepted. Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    The "potential for abuse" GP is talking about could be rephrased as: with assisted suicide, many more people would find themselves in the very unfortunate position of needing to die, just for reasons external to them.
  - maccard 5y ago
    I'm very on the fence on this topic; I've watched family members/friends pass in varying degrees of pain, and at least in those cases I'm not sure having assisted suicide would have helped that much. What _definitely would_ have helped would have been better end of life care. > who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. Defining that line is very, very, tricky. People only reach this point at a desperate time, when they are potentailly very vulnerable. There's a huge difference between two people in an end-of-life situation, one who is willing to die and one who isn't, yet both may "need" to die, and we have the meansright now to provide an easier transition from "terminally ill" to the former, but yet people end up in the second bucket all the time. > Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation. Yet we have many many people who have suicidal thoughts, and who commit suicide (arguably needlessly), when we have methods of helping. We should have the same methods of helping people who are terminally ill. (That's not to get into the mess of what do the family of the patient want; things get messy _really_ fast when money is on the line as I've unfortunately witnessed, and it tears families apart.)
api 5y ago
The problem is the possibility that physician assisted suicide will be abused to clear out people who are costly to treat by gently urging them to take the option, or other similar scenarios like a family urging someone to take the option so they can get early inheritance. It's one of those things that I might support in idealistic principle but where I develop serious reservations when I factor in how ugly people can be in real life.
- amelius 5y ago
  Then perhaps we should ban inheritance. It seemed unfair anyway.
scotty79 5y ago
Especially since current practice when it comes to dementia is waiting till the patient forgets how to swollow food and then let him/her starve to death.

amatecha 5y ago

Yeah, I know someone who said for basically their entire adult life "if I ever get like that, just shoot me" and meant it quite seriously. Unfortunately, they indeed spent their last few years gradually degrading in the throes of dementia. Very sad to see, and even more sad to know they would have absolutely hated being left to "rot" in such a way. The only consolation is the person hopefully didn't "know"? Who knows? :\

IncRnd 5y ago
People say all sorts of things, but if they don't commit to writing directions down, how are people supposed to know what the person really wanted? Also, someone might say one thing, until death becomes immanent, and then they realize they want something else.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  I have written a formal, witnessed statement of my wishes, in the event that I'm unable to utter them. My physician has a copy; there's a copy in my desk-drawer at home, with my will. I understand that different health authorities here have different policies on the registration and application of such "living wills". I have no confidence that if I get sick in the wrong place, my statement will even be noticed, let alone respected. Also, there's no reason why a paramedic coming to my home would know to look in my desk-drawer (I live on my own), and so discover that I don't want any CPR, ever. And ultimately, these living wills are advisory only; medics can't be sued for ignoring them. It's a bloody mess. I really hope I don't ever get demented.

gerdesj 5y ago

There are organisations in the EU that will assist suicide in certain circumstances. Sir T Pratchett wrote extensively about being on the wrong end of dementia. He didn't have much to say about abortion when he was dealing with cognitive decline.

Sebb767 5y ago

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wanted and if their mental state clear enough to make a decision like this. Lastly, not killing these people is the "safe choice" - you're not getting sued for not killing a person. In the end, it probably boils down to this.

supperburg 5y ago
You are a person who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. That’s why suicide will never be accepted. Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  The "potential for abuse" GP is talking about could be rephrased as: with assisted suicide, many more people would find themselves in the very unfortunate position of needing to die, just for reasons external to them.
- maccard 5y ago
  I'm very on the fence on this topic; I've watched family members/friends pass in varying degrees of pain, and at least in those cases I'm not sure having assisted suicide would have helped that much. What _definitely would_ have helped would have been better end of life care. > who has never been in the very unfortunate position of needing to die. Defining that line is very, very, tricky. People only reach this point at a desperate time, when they are potentailly very vulnerable. There's a huge difference between two people in an end-of-life situation, one who is willing to die and one who isn't, yet both may "need" to die, and we have the meansright now to provide an easier transition from "terminally ill" to the former, but yet people end up in the second bucket all the time. > Because so few people ever get stuck in that situation. Yet we have many many people who have suicidal thoughts, and who commit suicide (arguably needlessly), when we have methods of helping. We should have the same methods of helping people who are terminally ill. (That's not to get into the mess of what do the family of the patient want; things get messy _really_ fast when money is on the line as I've unfortunately witnessed, and it tears families apart.)

api 5y ago

The problem is the possibility that physician assisted suicide will be abused to clear out people who are costly to treat by gently urging them to take the option, or other similar scenarios like a family urging someone to take the option so they can get early inheritance. It's one of those things that I might support in idealistic principle but where I develop serious reservations when I factor in how ugly people can be in real life.

amelius 5y ago
Then perhaps we should ban inheritance. It seemed unfair anyway.

scotty79 5y ago

Especially since current practice when it comes to dementia is waiting till the patient forgets how to swollow food and then let him/her starve to death.