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Chilling, and I suspect that western governments will do very little to prevent this kind of extra-territorial control exerted by the CCP. In a few years I exp

• kasperni 5y ago
  > Chilling, and I suspect that western governments will do very little to prevent this kind of extra-territorial control exerted by the CCP. The US literally locks down countries that they think misbehave.
  • L33tCrown 5y ago
    Your isn't a valuable comment to this news, whataboutism is a very poor rhetoric.
  • dcl 5y ago
    True. But I fear China more.
    • mushbino 5y ago
      Extraordinary rendition, CIA, regime change, foreign invasions. Compare US to China, please
      • Proven 5y ago
        Multiple kidnappings of Hong Kong citizens, regime change in Hong Kong, widespread support for authocratic, corrupt regimes in Africa and Asia, invasions or conflicts with of Tibet, India, Vietnam, decades of violations against multiple countries and of international law in the South China Sea. Satisfied?
      • arthurcolle 5y ago
        Uyghur torture + concentration camps, Falun Gong forced vivisections, no free floating currency, domination of the public discourse via explicit propaganda, absurd social controls like 'no more than 3 hrs of video games', implicit eugenics policies via 1 child policy. Repeated and ongoing aggressions against other countries that have states that wish for their own independence. I wish for my own independence from the disgusting abuses from global states, so I sympathize with Hong Kong. China is definitely pretty bad. Wait, only a few of those things are exclusive to China. Weird... you're right. Maybe let's do away with states while we're waxing poetic. EDIT: I can't even fathom the confusion of ideas that would lead you to being pro-China when the ongoing current abuses are so expansive, but whatever works for you!
        • prox 5y ago
          Cultural Revolution : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Humanitarian_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Humanitari...
          • arthurcolle 5y ago
            I am aware of this, what are you trying to achieve with this statement?
            • prox 5y ago
              Just adding to your list, no worries.
              • arthurcolle 5y ago
                Thanks, gotcha!
      • tablespoon 5y ago
        >> True. But I fear China more. > Extraordinary rendition, CIA, regime change, foreign invasions. Compare US to China, please The PRC is explicitly opposed to a lot of basic values nearly all Westerners care a great deal about: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership-takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea... For the most part, US foreign policy broadly attempts to promote and spread those values, though there are some notable areas where it disregarded them or failed (though to properly see those, you sometimes have to look at the big picture).
        • luckylion 5y ago
          "For the most part, US foreign policy broadly pretends to promote and spread those values" I think is more accurate. I'm not sure it matters if China is opposed to my basic values but doesn't do anything about it, and the US isn't opposed to my basic values, but kidnaps and tortures me for a few years because I've grown a beard and went on a pilgrimage to Pakistan.
          • tablespoon 5y ago
            > "For the most part, US foreign policy broadly pretends to promote and spread those values" No, it's not "pretend." For instance the US just sunk something like 2 trillion dollars trying to build a democracy in Afghanistan, and you don't blow 2 trillion on anything you're only pretending to do (and if you think it's some conspiracy to line the pockets of defense contractors, there are far more efficient ways of doing that and it wouldn't have stopped). > I'm not sure it matters if China is opposed to my basic values but doesn't do anything about it, and the US isn't opposed to my basic values, but kidnaps and tortures me for a few years because I've grown a beard and went on a pilgrimage to Pakistan. You think China doesn't do that? I mean having "grown a beard and went on a pilgrimage to Pakistan" is a literally entry criteria to get sent to a camp in Xinjiang. Also: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48634136 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48634136 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/04/world/europe/repression-uyghurs-belarus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/04/world/europe/repression-u... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/10/world/asia/china-canada-spavor-kovrig.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/10/world/asia/china-canada-s...
    • caoilte 5y ago
      Understandable given the media climate whipped up by the military industrial complex.
  • willis936 5y ago
    I'm not a country. I'm not worried about Uncle Sam taking me down for (1A) protected speech. I am worried about China taking me out for comments like this.
    • beambot 5y ago
      You familiar with McCarthyism?
      • jeswin 5y ago
        Yeah. What about it?
        • skrebbel 5y ago
          Not GP, but I think the point made was that McCarthyism is precedent of US citizens getting into serious trouble because of things they said. It's a counter-example to the assumption that the US government will protect its citizens' free speech.
          • true_religion 5y ago
            While it’s true that the US used to be much more intrusive about policing “seditious” speech, it’s also true that this occurred a long time ago. McCarthyism ended in around 1962. During this era, homosexuality was still illegal, abortions were punished with prison time, and people with varying skin complexions still couldn’t drink from the same water fountains. In terms of social progress, McCarthyism was only acceptable to a society totally alien to the one we live in today.
            • RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
              I'd argue McCarthyism ended not because the US has "progressed" socially, but because the US had won the Cold War and there has not been a "worthy adversary" for the US until the rise of China. I wouldn't be surprised if the US start to make the life of China sympathizers difficult in near future if China becomes more competitive.
  • the_optimist 5y ago
    The US establishment has wholly abandoned historic ideals in favor of a new era that aligns with much of what you'd see in Chinese governance. We in fact witness below US citizens faithful to the Party who devotedly support this act because they believe this individual has infringed upon the propriety of their Party.
  • zwaps 5y ago
    Many people here are not from the US. Why do you whatabout the US? Maybe we want interference from neither country?
• throwaway210222 5y ago
  > western governments will do very little to prevent this kind of extra-territorial control exerted by the CCP. For the sake of discourse, could you list the countries that are allowed to extert extra-terratorial control.
  • dcl 5y ago
    Obviously none allow it. But it's silly not fear the logical conclusion of the CCP's actions.
    • throwaway210222 5y ago
      > Obviously none allow it Really? 1. Augustine Pinochet was arrested in London, UK on the principle of - and you'll love this one - universal juristiction. 2. the following countries have some form of universal juristiction: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Malaysia, Senegal, Spain, United Kingdom, USA [1] 3. the USA passed the PEESA act [2] in their own congress/parliament where they grant themselves the right to unliterally decide - for the the entire of Europe - which natural gas suppliers are allowed to send gas to Europe. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction [2] https://www.state.gov/protecting-europes-energy-security-act-peesa/ https://www.state.gov/protecting-europes-energy-security-act... So what's one more?
      • sneak 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Skripal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Skripal The FSB also seems to get to (try to) assassinate certain crown subjects on British soil without consequence if they want to badly enough.
        • throwaway210222 5y ago
          To be fair to the Russians: he was also a Russian citizen and the US has long established the right to wipe their own citizens on foreign soil without a peep from the UK. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
• em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
  It is a bit hypocritical considering how often China likes to use the phrase “Do not interfere with internal affairs!”
  • prox 5y ago
    A bit hypocritical?
  • Ekaros 5y ago
    Not really if you accept them considering actions by Chinese as internal affairs. It is not like USA which extradite non-citizens...
    • zwaps 5y ago
      They are interfering plenty with non Chinese affairs. Remember, saying Hong Kong or Taiwan as a caster at a video game competition organized by a US company will get you fired. Or are we forgetting these incidents now?
      • Ekaros 5y ago
        Hong Kong and Taiwan for them are entirely internal affairs. Thus any comments on them are also internal affairs.
        • hkmaxpro 5y ago
          China claims that the South China Sea is its internal affairs too [0][1]. If China succeeds, soon it will claim every part of the Mongol empire (including almost all of Eastern Europe and some parts of Central Europe) is its internal affairs, because China considers the Mongol empire as merely one of its dynasties. Remember how China censored a French exhibition about Genghis Khan? [2] Only a fool would believe their claim about “internal affairs”. [0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2148979/china-putting-troops-weapons-south-china-sea-islands https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/21... [1] https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html (in Chinese) [2] https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-genghis-khan-show-after-chinese-pressure https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-gen...
• dirtyid 5y ago
  It's silly to equate market access with extra-territorial control. Credit Suisse wants to court PRC money, they need to be mindful of PRC interests. Actual Chinese extra-territorial controls in the form of sanctions and other legitimate instruments will come. More foreign banks start operating in the PRC now that the financial market is opening up to foreign institutions, more coupling and ability for PRC to assert legal extra-territorial mechanisms. Until then, this is just banks being prudent out of their own volition. Like Hollywood catering to the Chinese market. If it’s any consolation, US will probably legislate a zone of exception preventing US banks from cooperating with CCP interests.
• throwawaysea 5y ago
  It’s disappointing to see American companies and celebrities also cave into the CCP’s pressure. For example consider LeBron James’s spineless parroting of CCP talking points against free speech (https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/467295-uighurs-china-and-the-lucrative-hypocrisy-of-lebron-james-nba https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/467295-uighurs-chin...) and his stance criticizing those who spoke in defense of Hong Kong protesters (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/lebron-james-nba-china-intl-hnk-scli/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/lebron-james-nba-china-int...). All of this suggests that despite the woke bonafides of companies like Nike or Disney or sports organizations like the NBA or celebrities like LeBron or The Rock, they too ultimately care mainly about their self interests to the point that they will stand up and defend an illiberal authoritarian genocidal communist government (https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/story/2019-10-14/lebron-james-comments-show-how-business-tops-nba-china-agenda-an https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/story/2019-10-14/lebro...). Remember these are the same people and groups that will readily attack America’s values and founding principles. I think you are right about the difficulty of criticizing China but it might be a present reality rather than a future possibility.
  • sitkack 5y ago
    > readily attack America’s values and founding principles You lost me with that one. What does one have to do with the other?
    • throwawaysea 5y ago
      I was pointing out the absurdity of celebrities and companies amplifying messages that criticize America, a land with an abundance of freedoms and classic liberal values, when they are unwilling to level any critique against China, a country that is very much on the other side of the value spectrum. It shows that China's power to compel foreign speech is much stronger than we think, because even these outspoken people/organizations can be silenced.
• DontTellAnyone 5y ago
  Western governments don't even protect their own citizens from this. In fact they encourage it if they deem you a political enemy. There are many European political dissidents here that had dozens of bank accounts canceled on them. Sometimes the only way to have a bank account after reaching a certain level of popularity is to bank in countries like Georgia, Bulgaria etc. where nobody has heard of you. Until they, too, cancel your account and you're unbanked again and unable to participate in a modern economy. IMO the only way out of this kind of oppression is crypto, at least in the long term.
  • chinathrow 5y ago
    Crypto cannot be a way out IMHO - resistance, outrage and press coverage can be. If you rely on technical measures to fight opression, you're doomed long term.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • WanderPanda 5y ago
      Why would that be? Are you aware of historic precedences for this?
      • oliwarner 5y ago
        Because the problem here is companies being pressured by states for political ends. So okay, route around the banking problem by switching to crypto. It's just 100 times harder for somebody to donate, and for the foundation to spend, but whatever. Now this rogue nation state targets your landlords, your water company, your kids' school. How much can you route around or DIY before you're a prisoner? The fix has to be other countries pushing back, ensuring freedom.
        • leppr 5y ago
          Just like with anything security, it's not about eliminating 100% of the risk but making it harder for enemies to attack you. Crypto might not be the holy grail solution, but securing your lifeline for living in society (money), is a pretty good start. > Now this rogue nation state targets your landlords, your water company, your kids' school. Without access to money you can't get any of these things. With cash, you can manage to find lodging, food and education for your kids.
• shapefrog 5y ago
  > western governments will do very little to prevent this kind of extra-territorial control exerted by the CCP FACTA - US legislation, impossed upon every financial institution on the planet.
  • simonh 5y ago
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but yes, it does make it tricky to hold the line against this sort of egregious interference while also imposing this kind of egregious interference.
    • HugoDaniel 5y ago
      egregious, to say the least
    • gumby 5y ago
      I didn’t see this comment so much as “two wrongs don’t make a right” but rather “the us, and likely the majority of its people, are perfectly comfortable with this approach”
      • shapefrog 5y ago
        Even 'enemies' have quid pro quos - in order to exert your extra-territorial control you must turn a blind eye to others doing it some times. IF you are going to blow up your ability to control practically every human being on the planets ability to have and use money within a golbal finacial system, it had better be worth it. I suspect this guy aint worth the trouble.
• krageon 5y ago
  > difficult to criticise China. Given that currently it is a career-ending move in big enterprise or government to criticise the US right now, that's not unreasonable to think. Especially given that the US is (and has been) in decline.
• est 5y ago
  > western governments will do very little to prevent this kind of extra-territorial control Yeah remember Meng? A Chinese businesswoman showed some PPT to a HK based bank, then got arrested by RCMP for "bank fraud", at a time when Canada had no sanctions against Iran.
  • Paradigma11 5y ago
    Meng did obviously and intentionally lie to US banks and got them to commit illegal acts without their knowledge. There is a good argument to be made that others also did this and this is selective enforcement but that is another matter.
    • est 5y ago
      > US banks last time I chcked, HSBC is not a US bank. Which US ban are you referring to?