6 ms·

It would be very nice if this happened. In my view, one other feasible good step would be to require companies to publish the source code of their phones, ie p

It would be very nice if this happened. In my view, one other feasible good step would be to require companies to publish the source code of their phones, ie provide the option for people to download, compile and install the full sw stack. Like this even if manufacturers stop supporting their devices, people can step in and do it. At the very least it would make it easier to support devices than it currently is in third party ROMs

0-_-0 5y ago
I think that would be the ideal scenario.
gruez 5y ago
>In my view, one other feasible good step would be to require companies to publish the source code of their phones That is definitely not feasible. Vendors are very protective of their code. eg. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2019/08/2019-08-09-SenseTime-5.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2019/08/2019-08-0...
- thepangolino 5y ago
  Vendors can be as protective as they want, they can't go against the law of the land.
  - gruez 5y ago
    The point is that there will be a lot of pushback from vendors. Meanwhile I doubt even 5% of the electorate actually cares about this. For that reason I don't think it's really "feasible".
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      >Meanwhile I doubt even 5% of the electorate actually cares about this. // Representational democracy is supposed to work around the problem of an uninformed electorate. The question should be "if a member of the electorate understood this situation well enough would they care", representatives are supposed to use subject experts to help them answer that question and then use their political expertise to implement laws that move us towards a solution. It's a big ask, and it doesn't work that well -- politicians often work at what will win them plaudits in the press (or what can be presented as a win, if they control the press), rather than actually doing their job. Fundamentally though "the electorate doesn't care" is the wrong measure, there are a million things the electorate don't care about but would care about if they had the situation presented to them fully ... we pay representatives and advisors so we don't have to care directly ... that's supposed to be how it works.
      - google234123 5y ago
        If the EU will also be happy to pay 100s of billions in IP reparations to the US and Asian countries affected then I’m sure the law will big fine :)
  - Sargos 5y ago
    The law only works if it makes sense. Aggressive and borderline punitive laws where IP is forced open will not be followed.
- teknopaul 5y ago
  requing operators to allow phone owners to update all OpenSource code, which is probably the majority of the Internet/network facing code in ios and android, could be doable.
- tjoff 5y ago
  They are. But perhaps there is little reason for them to be. Especially if everyone else wanting to play needs to open up as well.
- deepbluev7 5y ago
  You could just give vendors the option: - Release all code necessary for independent developers to provide updates. - Release updates for 7 years yourself. Then they can decide what is cheaper for them.
- fsflover 5y ago
  This is not just feasible, there is a device like this: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5.
planb 5y ago
What about a law the forces vendors to either provide security updates or publish the source code? That seems like a reasonable trade off between consumer rights and ip protection.
- WhyNotHugo 5y ago
  Frequently SoC manufacturer make quick and dirty changes to a fork of the Linux kernel. By the time the hardware actually ships, those changes don't work any more with the current Linux kernel. Trying to make those work 2 years later is a huge effort -- probably worth less than just replacing the phones. Mind you, I agree with you in principle, but I can see how in practice in might all go to shit.
  - titzer 5y ago
    I guess they gotta stop doing that then, huh? I don't see how consumers and society benefit from rushed, vulnerable crap software. Oh, right. Time to market. Race to the bottom. That's what we need more of.
    - dmitrygr 5y ago
      > I don't see how consumers and society benefit Actually, you do see. The price of your phone would be higher if Qualcomm had to hire competent engineers to make properly designed kernel changes for their hardware.
      - TeMPOraL 5y ago
        How much higher though? If you were to take the total extra expenditure on increased salaries for those engineers, and divide by the number of phones produced, the result is what? A dollar?
        mathstuf 5y ago
        Sure, but when applying Marketing Math™, remember that all prices need to end in "49" or "99" to "sound cheaper" than the next incremental bump. So you'll end up with a device that is either $50 or (more likely) $100 more than otherwise. Or they'll eat that $1 from their profit margins…eh, who am I kidding?
nelgaard 5y ago
I would prefer if instead smartphone makers were at least forced to add a tool so users could wipe the memory and install a free bootloader. And would be great if they had to also provide a free OS, like postmarketos, lineage, Debian or something like that. It could be very rudimentary without a GUI, just drivers for GPS and Wifi. And they would not have to provide even security updates for that. So I would think that many companies would also prefer that.

0-_-0 5y ago

I think that would be the ideal scenario.

gruez 5y ago

>In my view, one other feasible good step would be to require companies to publish the source code of their phones That is definitely not feasible. Vendors are very protective of their code. eg. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2019/08/2019-08-09-SenseTime-5.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2019/08/2019-08-0...

thepangolino 5y ago
Vendors can be as protective as they want, they can't go against the law of the land.
- gruez 5y ago
  The point is that there will be a lot of pushback from vendors. Meanwhile I doubt even 5% of the electorate actually cares about this. For that reason I don't think it's really "feasible".
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    >Meanwhile I doubt even 5% of the electorate actually cares about this. // Representational democracy is supposed to work around the problem of an uninformed electorate. The question should be "if a member of the electorate understood this situation well enough would they care", representatives are supposed to use subject experts to help them answer that question and then use their political expertise to implement laws that move us towards a solution. It's a big ask, and it doesn't work that well -- politicians often work at what will win them plaudits in the press (or what can be presented as a win, if they control the press), rather than actually doing their job. Fundamentally though "the electorate doesn't care" is the wrong measure, there are a million things the electorate don't care about but would care about if they had the situation presented to them fully ... we pay representatives and advisors so we don't have to care directly ... that's supposed to be how it works.
    - google234123 5y ago
      If the EU will also be happy to pay 100s of billions in IP reparations to the US and Asian countries affected then I’m sure the law will big fine :)
- Sargos 5y ago
  The law only works if it makes sense. Aggressive and borderline punitive laws where IP is forced open will not be followed.
teknopaul 5y ago
requing operators to allow phone owners to update all OpenSource code, which is probably the majority of the Internet/network facing code in ios and android, could be doable.
tjoff 5y ago
They are. But perhaps there is little reason for them to be. Especially if everyone else wanting to play needs to open up as well.
deepbluev7 5y ago
You could just give vendors the option: - Release all code necessary for independent developers to provide updates. - Release updates for 7 years yourself. Then they can decide what is cheaper for them.
fsflover 5y ago
This is not just feasible, there is a device like this: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5.

planb 5y ago

What about a law the forces vendors to either provide security updates or publish the source code? That seems like a reasonable trade off between consumer rights and ip protection.

WhyNotHugo 5y ago
Frequently SoC manufacturer make quick and dirty changes to a fork of the Linux kernel. By the time the hardware actually ships, those changes don't work any more with the current Linux kernel. Trying to make those work 2 years later is a huge effort -- probably worth less than just replacing the phones. Mind you, I agree with you in principle, but I can see how in practice in might all go to shit.
- titzer 5y ago
  I guess they gotta stop doing that then, huh? I don't see how consumers and society benefit from rushed, vulnerable crap software. Oh, right. Time to market. Race to the bottom. That's what we need more of.
  - dmitrygr 5y ago
    > I don't see how consumers and society benefit Actually, you do see. The price of your phone would be higher if Qualcomm had to hire competent engineers to make properly designed kernel changes for their hardware.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      How much higher though? If you were to take the total extra expenditure on increased salaries for those engineers, and divide by the number of phones produced, the result is what? A dollar?
      - mathstuf 5y ago
        Sure, but when applying Marketing Math™, remember that all prices need to end in "49" or "99" to "sound cheaper" than the next incremental bump. So you'll end up with a device that is either $50 or (more likely) $100 more than otherwise. Or they'll eat that $1 from their profit margins…eh, who am I kidding?

nelgaard 5y ago

I would prefer if instead smartphone makers were at least forced to add a tool so users could wipe the memory and install a free bootloader. And would be great if they had to also provide a free OS, like postmarketos, lineage, Debian or something like that. It could be very rudimentary without a GUI, just drivers for GPS and Wifi. And they would not have to provide even security updates for that. So I would think that many companies would also prefer that.