13 ms·

Linus Torvalds dumps Gnome3 for XFCE (G+ discussion)

183 points by ricw 15y ago

sjwright 15y ago
Linus isn't the target audience for Gnome 3. Enough said, let's move on.
- iam 15y ago
  Haha, I was so confused. I thought Red Hat Linux was dropping Gnome3 in favor of XFCE as the default GUI shell. A few minutes later reading through the whole G+ thread it became apparent that Linus, as an individual, has decided to use XFCE. Well, good for him I guess? But how is that news?
- mestudent 15y ago
  I guess I am not the target audience either, but gnome2 remains my favorite desktop environment and once that is dropped from distros I will go another route, perhaps xfce but it does indeed have many shortcomings.
- Joeboy 15y ago
  I'm guessing you say that because you expect him to be doing crazy magic developery things that normal people don't need, but the objections he raises seem to be about fairly "normal" uses (he uses the terminal as an example but presumably it's the same for any other app).
- tty 15y ago
  >Linus isn't the target audience for Gnome 3. But who is the target audience for Gnome 3?
  - darklajid 15y ago
    Here's one! I like the Shell. I really do. And that's from someone that - used (black|open)box for a loooong time - dislikes KDE's gazillion settings and the bling it offers I cannot point you to the single one killer feature. It just hits the sweet spot between good looking (subjective, of course) and usable (ditto). My previous workflow on any platform has been tied to something that combines searching/launching. OS X? Quicksilver. Windows? Launchy, with Windows 7 the startmenu became useable as an alternative. Linux? Gnome Do. It just comes natural now to hit super and start typing. I do understand the point of other commenters here about breaking this as a modifier key, but frankly - I never used it as such. Except for super + space to launch Gnome Do/Launchy/you see where I'm getting to.. I don't use tools that use weird (emacs, sorry, we're just not meant to be together) key combinations and I don't use composition to access accents/umlauts/special characters. Although I'm german and my keyboard layout is the US one. So: Sure, there are rough edges. It's new. But some parts of the discussion here seem to be a mixture of real issues and a healthy dose of 'omg it's different'.
    - Meai 15y ago
      Exactly. Gnome3 tries to reduce the time you spend searching for icons+windows and/or sorting them. That's the most time consuming task for a desktop user. It makes total sense to improve on that. I'm also faster at finding an icon when I first need to show the activities bar, instead of looking for it in an always-visible taskbar. How is that possible? Shouldn't the taskbar be faster to access? It's selective perception: The longer you stare at something, the less interest it holds for the brain. Example: You see 20 individual looking apples in front of you. Each has it's own shape/color. You sit in front of those apples for hours, you don't exactly recognise them during work. Focusing on them again and finding a specific one is going to take longer as if they were hidden from view and just pop into view each time you want one.
      - Dylan16807 15y ago
        I would find the exact opposite faster. Looking at something I'm used to looking at is easy, and it'll help muscle memory to be persistent. I don't have to decide I want to change, then wait while my hand triggers the popup, then parse the shapes. That's not to say that the popup isn't a good idea, but the only benefit I see is I screen space.
Enoshack 15y ago
I switched from puppy-525 default desktop to xfce - what an awsome os!
j_baker 15y ago
I predict the next Hacker News posting on Linus will be titled something like "Linus wipes his ass". Oh wait, we've already had that one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 Seriously though, who cares? Let's see postings from Linus about why he designed the Linux kernel the way he did or why git's command line interface is so damn unintuitive (this coming from a hardcore git fan before you downvote me). But posting submissions for every silly opinion he has reduces us to preteen groupies following every move of the latest teenage heartthrob.
ajross 15y ago
I came really close to the same decision. But honestly: I like gnome-shell (not all of gnome 3, the totally mucked up dconf/gconf configuration mess in F15 is unforgivable). Along with all the favorite gadgets, it also throws out a ton of crap. It just gets out of the way for the most part. The clean vertical desktop scrolling is actually a fantastic feature once you get used to it. Putting the status icon mess into a hot corner seems weird the first time, but I find I quickly got used to it and that it's a great way to save screen space. Likewise I don't need to dedicate screen space to a desktop switcher: swapping desktops via the top left hot corner can be done very accurately (after a little practice) with two quick flicks of the mouse. Dragging a window all the way to the side locks it down to a half-screen-maximized mode which duplicates almost exactly my preferred working environment and saves me a ton of fiddling. Really, I think it's a keeper. It's got some serious maturity (though not stability) problems in Fedora 15 right now. I think the defaults for some of the settings are just wrong. But overall I like it.
- stephen_g 15y ago
  I really like Gnome shell too, and I agree that there are a lot of settings that are just wrong by default... I have to change quite a few (many of which are stupidly hidden so I have to do it via gconf or a tweak application) each time I set up a computer with Gnome 3 to make it usable. And even then there are some design issues that totally ruin some parts of the user experience that I hope are fixed soon. For example, you can't shut down the computer. At least, you can't from the GUI without googling, and finding out about the secret key you have to hold to make the option appear. So they've gone and made an function that many users every day completely hidden and undiscoverable. And when you complain, well, of course they can't change it because "it's in The Design", as if it was a document set on a stone tablet delivered from heaven...
sriramk 15y ago
I've been using Gnome 3 for a few months now. When I started, people told me on Twitter to stick with it and that I'd grow to like it. I didn't. And after three months, I'm very tempted to turn on compat mode (something I avoid doing in most software I use)
- npaquin 15y ago
  Compat mode is still pretty crappy.
  - logic 15y ago
    I'll second this very strongly. Compatibility mode is a shadow of what Gnome 2 used to be, and I've spent enough time using it at this point to feel pretty comfortable saying that. (And if you do any work in a VM, you too will become very familiar with compatibility mode.)
pkulak 15y ago
Linus wants a new terminal to pop up when he hits the terminal icon? That's pretty old-school behavior. OSX and Windows have long moved away from it. I don't use Gnome3, but hitting cmd+n or cmd+t when I want a new terminal doesn't seem to bother me much.
- DasIch 15y ago
  That behaviour makes sense for a lot of applications sure but for stuff like terminals it is really annoying. Why isn't it possible to configure that on a per-launcher basis?
  - thristian 15y ago
    I spent a few years using OS X, and clicking on some corner of some terminal somewhere and hitting Cmd-N to get myself a fresh terminal (or clicking somewhere on the desktop and hitting Cmd-N to get a fresh file-manager window) was so convenient that even in GNOME 3 I have Super-N bound to 'new terminal window'.
  - oconnore 15y ago
    It will be eventually, but the default behaviour is the most important thing to get right.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Configurability being added to Gnome? Ha!
- ajross 15y ago
  Linus is right. "Old school" or no, a new window for apps like terminal is exactly the right behavior. At least for my workflow it is: I want a shell right now, and I'll throw it away when I'm done. I worked around this by binding Ctrl-Alt-T to spawn a gnome-terminal (likewise Ctrl-Alt-E to launch a new emacs window). Happily that key customization UI survived the transition to gnome 3.
MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
I miss my CPU/RAM/NIC monitor. :c
- intellection 15y ago
  CPU:0.001% RAM: 7/10GB NIC: 1TB/s Remember that time we went to 100% for 1 week and overcame a process you couldn't kill? 10ve, p.c.
- tspiteri 15y ago
  I missed that too. Now I have found an extension, which is not yet in yum, but it's not too hard to install following the instructions in the README. https://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-applet/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-...
- kmm 15y ago
  I didn't know there was none in Gnome 3. That's a dealbreaker, I think it's an essential app(let).
mvanga 15y ago
With GNOME3, I really tried. I decided to give it some time to see if the workflow would sink in but after a month of using it, I reverted back to GNOME2. Using GNOME3 makes you feel like the developers have effectively decided how your desktop workflow should be. I'm quite disappointed with this trend towards a polished, "grandma-friendly" desktop. As of now, I'm fine with GNOME2. Perhaps I will switch to something like XFCE in the future.
kungfooguru 15y ago
meta-shift-enter = new terminal. Xmonad!
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- sciurus 15y ago
  alt-enter = new teminal. http://i3wm.org/ http://i3wm.org/
- sciurus 15y ago
  alt-enter = new teminal. http://i3wm.org/ http://i3wm.org/
- jerf 15y ago
  [Any keystroke] -> New Terminal. [Any window manager worth it's salt]! I've had ALT-F2 bound to New Terminal window for the past 12 years now, through half-a-dozen window managers. ALT-F1 is new browser, and I've got some preferred CTRL-ALT-arrow keys for moving around virtual desktops. Everything has configurable keys and has for a long time, though sometimes you have to create a one-line shell script to pop up a terminal, find your local menu editor, add that script, then give that menu entry a shortcut.
- zenspunk 15y ago
  You can set keyboard shortcuts on Gnome 3. Though I prefer super-enter for launching gnome terminal (from my earlier ventures with awesome).
- spooneybarger 15y ago
  Seriously though... Xmonad is entirely unlike Gnome, KDE, XFCE et al. And thank goodness because I don't like 'desktops', overlapping windows and what not. Xmonad and its brethren wms give me what I want out of a GUI.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  With apologies to XKCD... http://i.imgur.com/EB5K9.png http://i.imgur.com/EB5K9.png
16s 15y ago
xfce4 is really awesome. I can vouch for it as well. If you need a productive, traditional desktop, then try it. The only thing I miss is the gnome samba mount options.
trotsky 15y ago
I really wanted to like Gnome 3 and gave it an extended trial run. I really like the gnome shell for the most part, overview mode, left dock, dynamic desktops. It felt right on my 14" 16x9 laptop screen. However, it took a serious hit in terms of power management and other laptop usability - no auto dim on battery? No exposed lid close event? No exposed power profiles? It also didn't feel nearly as good on my dual desktop monitors. A lot of what the shell does right is conserving real estate, but when you have a lot of it the extra room isn't so critical and you start missing some of the convenience. I did absolutely hate it until I learned a number of keyboard shortcuts and how to launch applications by typing a few letters of what you want. I am back with KDE 4.6 for now, but I am looking forward to giving it another try after they've polished it up a bit. I heard when it launched that august was a target for a point release.
IgorPartola 15y ago
Excuse me but what is Gnome3? I've been using Xubuntu and Xfce4 for a number of years now and have been really happy with it. Periodically I will try regular Ubuntu and Gnome just seems to have too many awkward issues. For example it insists on me having a desktop (preferable one full of icons and Excel spreadsheets). Even if I turn off icons on the desktop, I still must have the Desktop directory. Their file manager is also confused: it thinks I need help mounting network file systems. That's the job of things like Fuse and NFS, not of a GUI application. Things like this are the reason why I prefer not to spend too long using Gnome.
- hactually 15y ago
  Gnome 3 doesn't force you to use the desktop as icons etc are disabled by default. The persistent desktop directory is down to your distribution/XDG - check out ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs to remove it. As for "it thinks I need help mounting network file systems"; Could you clarify what you mean?
  - IgorPartola 15y ago
    It includes the functionality to mount NFS/SMB/FTP shatlres and those options are a part of the UI. Now, like I said, I haven't used Gnome in a while, but I remember finding this somewhat frustrating since I know how to use the mount command. By contras, thunar is very simple in what it does and it does it well.
blinkingled 15y ago
Someone just needs to desktopize Honeycomb even more and port it to x86. It shouldn't be too hard to make it work better than the mess KDE and GNOME are at this point. That someone should be Intel and AMD I think - if they put their money we could really see some hope for Linux on Desktop via Tablets. Real threat to Microsoft if they can make it work great on both platforms.
- darklajid 15y ago
  I fail to see the point. The people that complain the most here are those that seem to fall into the "poweruser" category. That instead move off to a inferior (my view) DE like xfce just to keep their muscle memory or leave for tiling window managers, a completely different wm strategy. Why do you think that these people would love working with Android as OS/DE? It seems to me that Android is much _worse_ for them - and falls exactly into the 'We don't want something that seems to be made for tablets, we want a productive work environment' line of complaints? Edit: Oh, and let me add a snarky comment regarding 'That someone should be Intel': No, if you like to have a nice integrated environment that differs from current DEs and is tablet friendly, than Intel would be happy to see you using MeeGo, on a 'real' Linux stack.
  - blinkingled 15y ago
    Yeah, MeeGo is going everywhere. Snark aside I wasn't saying use Android as is on Desktops if you read what I wrote. It is already somewhat desktop-ish and would need to be made more so but I don't see why that would be hard to do.
- davidw 15y ago
  > It shouldn't be too hard to make it work better than the mess KDE and GNOME are at this point. Yeah, I bet you could build that in a weekend...
  - blinkingled 15y ago
    Thanks for putting the exact timeframe on it. Super useful to understand it in weekend for modifying something existing vs what do you think 4 weeks for fixing GNOME or KDE? :p Today's Dilbert is made for exactly this situation :-) http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-08-04/ http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-08-04/
Jach 15y ago
Exactly my thoughts. Once Gentoo drops gnome2 it's Xfce for me. I used it before on a low-powered laptop and it was nearly as good as gnome2, in some cases better.
whackberry 15y ago
This is going to be unpopular, I know. I'm a linux buff too, diehard fan since 1997. BUT. One has got to admit the Windows 7 interface is great. I bought a new notebook that came with it and I gotta say, I wish Linux had ONE great interface and standard GUI programming API.
- stephen_g 15y ago
  I was a Linux diehard too, but I got a Mac laptop and now most of the time I just use Linux through SSH or occasionally through a VM... I still love it as a development environment (I even get to do kernel hacking at work sometimes) but I'm not as sold on it as a desktop OS as I used to be...
- nxn 15y ago
  By "ONE" do you mean at least one, as in implying there are none right now. Or by "ONE" do you mean that you wish there would be one and only one GUI/DE for linux? If it's the first, I would agree because I would willingly pay money to use the Windows 7 or even OS X interfaces in Linux. Essentially, I feel that while Linux has software I can't live without, there is not a single WM/DE out there that I can use without being annoyed every 20 minutes or without having to spend weeks configuring it. Gnome came closest before the gnome-shell move, now KDE is the closest but it's seriously still too buggy and "WTF" inducing. I'm not sure if it would be less work to remove all the "default/assumed" features from KDE (like the wallet that irritates me even when browsing websites) or to set up XFCE to some bearable degree from scratch. Regardless, I'd still take this selection of environments that are all either ugly, time consuming to configure, buggy, or flat out annoying over having no choice at all. Even if the "no choice" option was really excellent, I would not like the thought of being stuck with it knowing that under some rare condition it might be useless and my only way out is a complete OS switch. Example: as much as I praise the windows 7 UI, I would hate to try and deal with it if I lost my ability to use a mouse. Meanwhile, I know there are nice options in the Linux world that I could use if this was the case. Pretty much it boils down to my opinion that no interface is going to be good at every use case. And for that reason I'd rather have a slew of mediocre ones that span a broader range over a single one that covers a small spectrum but does it well.
strmpnk 15y ago
I find it amusing that Linus finds what I consider annoying behavior more usable. Changing things up is always painful. I really hate clicking on Terminal and having something new pop up when I might just be trying to bring that application back into focus (to me 'one window' = 'one application' is a fallacy). EDIT: Seriously though. People are making a big deal out of someone having a different opinion. Silly.
- flomo 15y ago
  Gnome has been around, what, 10 years? If they are randomly changing behavior just because someone feeling it would be 'better', it indicates either nobody is using Gnome, or they don't care if anyone has been using Gnome. I don't see either Mac or Windows making these sorts of minor, workflow-breaking changes and just telling people to suck it up.
  - thomas11 15y ago
    The changes are not "random", just because you don't know about the thoughts and testing that went into them. Mac made a huge all-breaking change with Mac OS X. That only occurs every few years, but as you say, Gnome 2 is ten years old. Then Lion introduced all kinds of workflow-breaking changes, like the automatic spelling correction, the "overview mode" or whatever it's called, the reversed scrolling. And you have to suck it up that much more on Mac OS, because there's just no way to install a different version of the interface.
    - ptomato 15y ago
      Two of those examples (spelling correction and reversed scrolling) are user configurable settings. Mission control I'd say is less of a workflow breaking change and more of the natural evolution of exposé & spaces.
  - strmpnk 15y ago
    I agree. I do find it odd that they are changing things in one direction rather than making it optional or spinning off another project. Personally, I look forward to change even now, since computers are far from perfect.
hristov 15y ago
So the same shitstorm that hit when the new Ubuntu interface came on is now hitting Gnome 3. I wish the Linux interface designers would realize that desktops are not tablets and that they should be making a super polished desktop interface and not trying to break everything down. The good thing about Linux though is that in Linux you always have options. There is always another GUI. So I think linux should be able to survive this wrong turn relatively unscathed.
- ori_b 15y ago
  Heh. I agree. But while you're telling that to the Linux guys, remember to tell it to both the Windows 8 and OSX Lion designers as well.
  - Derbasti 15y ago
    Actually, I feel that while Win7 and Lion simplified things, they didn't really take many features away. Some Linux designers seem to confuse removing complexity with removing functionality. But then, this is Linux, so someone will add the functionality and complexity back in soon enough.
  - hristov 15y ago
    You are right. I just don't care much about what MS or Apple do with their UI's nowadays.
- munchhausen 15y ago
  s/Linux interface designers/GNOME interface designers/ I don't think that KDE4 or Xfce, much less other alternatives, are moving towards a tablet-inspired interface.
f7u12 15y ago
I always thought I was weird for liking XFCE more than Gnome. Sounds like I'm not and it's time to give Xubuntu a full-time shot, especially with Unity being the default in Ubuntu now.
- papaf 15y ago
  I recently changed from Xubuntu to Mint XFCE and really like it: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725 http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725 Xubuntu is still an excellent choice though.
  - sandGorgon 15y ago
    hey thanks - that was a really interesting find. However, it is a rolling distro based on Debian Testing. I hope that doesnt mean frequent instability.
    - marrs 15y ago
      Debian Testing is stable enough for the desktop. It should be fine, plus you don't get the inconvenience caused by upgrading every 6 months.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
1amzave 15y ago
My biggest problem with Gnome 3 (and the number one reason I abandoned it in favor of Xmonad, which I've come to like quite a lot), was that it breaks the UI concept of the modifier key. Simply pressing and releasing the super key (with no other keypress in between) triggers a change of state (bringing up the "overview" or whatever it's called). The modifier key is such a basic interface concept that I struggle to imagine why they would go out of their way to break it -- any way I look at it, it's just monumentally idiotic. And best of all, I could find no way of disabling it. Admittedly, they're not the first to do this. OpenOffice has done something similar for quite a while (pressing and releasing a modifier key brings up a menu); that was one of the many things about OO that pissed me off. Nevertheless, precedent is insufficient justification for such a thoroughly moronic change. I've been wanting to rant about that for a while now, glad to get it off my chest. Thankfully, Xmonad is fantastic, so in a way I'm grateful to Gnome 3 for leading me to switch to it.
- thristian 15y ago
  It's not without precedent; In Windows, tapping the Alt key moves keyboard focus to the menu-bar (at least, it did in older version of Windows that had standard menu bars). To be fair, I've nobbled that particular behaviour of GNOME 3.0 because it prevents using the Super key for any other keyboard shortcuts. If I read bugzilla rightly, that should be fixed in 3.2, though.
  - andregawron 15y ago
    You can actually make the Super-Key usable again. Goto Region and Language -> Keyboard Layout Options and tick "Hyper is mapped to Win-keys" [1]. After that, you can use the super key again for shortcuts. I moved the activity window to Super-A but actually never use it. [1] Image: http://www.andre-gawron.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/key.png http://www.andre-gawron.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/key.pn... [2] Full blog entry: http://www.andre-gawron.de/383/amsterdam-peek-gnome-3-a-new-hobby http://www.andre-gawron.de/383/amsterdam-peek-gnome-3-a-new-...
    - thristian 15y ago
nodata 15y ago
Gnome3 doesn't fail because of that - it fails because it doesn't alert the user and teach them the changes as they use Gnome3. For example. I have Firefox running. I want another Firefox window, so I click the Firefox icon. At this point, why doesn't Gnome3 say "Hey! Just so you know, you've already got a Firefox window open, so we'll take you to that - but if you want a NEW Firefox window, click the logo again while holding down Control".
- wisty 15y ago
  The last time someone tried that in a big way was MSOffice. Remember the paperclip? People's reaction was so violently negative everyone has been scared to try it again.
  - nodata 15y ago
    No that's not the same. The paperclip was something separate, on another part of the screen, that tried to "help" for absolutely everything, constantly, and again and again. I'm suggesting something similar to what gmail does: when a new feature is launched you get a popup box near the new feature with an arrow pointing to the feature explaining two things: 1. What it does and why it would be useful 2. How to get rid of the popup box, but also how to get the info from the popup box again later if you need it.
zokier 15y ago
Interesting that he felt the need to change to either Gnome3 or XFCE. Why not keep using Gnome2 if it works for him? If enough people would keep using Gnome2 it probably could be forked like KDE3 was forked (although I'm not sure if Trinity actually survived)
ristretto 15y ago
I try hard to stick to XFCE, but after every update, ubuntu replaces thunar with nautilus
markokocic 15y ago
I'm much happier since I abandoned both Gnome and KDE, and went with StumpWM instead.
cabalamat 15y ago
While we're at it, distros should upgrade KDE4 back to KDE3. I switched from KDE4 to Gnome 2 because KDE4 was so bad.
- coffeeaddicted 15y ago
  I can't get used to Gnome, can't get used to KDE4 (and while we're at it - also not to Windows 7). Maybe because I grew up with older Desktop Environments, but nothing even comes close to KDE 3.5.10 for me. Since I updated to Debian Squeeze which no longer used KDE 3.5 I've stopped being happy when working on my system :-( I'll have to check-out Trinity at some time, I'm just a little worried if that project has the man-power to really keep KDE 3.5 alive.
- jpr 15y ago
  When was the last time you tried KDE4? I found that it was very unstable and buggy when I first tried it when it came out. Nowadays it seems stable (haven't had it crash anymore), and much less buggy (ie. normal level of bugginess).
  - cabalamat 15y ago
    > When was the last time you tried KDE4? About a month or so ago. > I found that it was very unstable and buggy when I first tried it when it came out. My problem with it isn't bugginess, it's that they'd removed the existing UI and replaced it with new stuff that worked differently. This means that I no longer know where to find stuff (e.g. for configuration). Also some of the new interface I really don't like, e.g. they have replace the main menu with a scrolling menu that only shows a few options at a time, so I have to scroll up and down to see all the options. This "feature" on its own is one I dislike so much that I will not willingly use this interface.
pagejim 15y ago
I think its time someone provided an alternative to the big two, GNOME and KDE. They have been around a long time and I guess reached their pinnacle. A nice, lightweight, intuitive environment minus all the fuss and cpu hog would be welcome by many I guess.
- Kwpolska 15y ago
  Xfce?
  - pagejim 15y ago
    Yes, that's one of the options. With Linus now adopting it, guess more will follow !!
D3lt4 15y ago
"I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3." I like Gnome 3 (quite a bit), then again I don't know Linus. On a another note, it seems every time he speaks he gets several hundred likes and yet he doesn't say anything particularly special/insightful compare to the other people in conversation (I found this somewhat humorous). :)
- olsonjeffery 15y ago
  This seems to be the same for other uber-celebs who are posting on G+ (the only other person in his league of popularity who I read with any regularity would probably have to be Markus Perrson (aka @Notch), and it's the exact same thing for his posts.. although I also observe this on posts from Randall Munroe, Leo Laporte, etc). When contrasted against twitter (which has the similar "pick who you want to follow" semantics), G+ has a more succinct ego-stroking mechanism for people who want to make their sycophancy more apparent (I kid, I kid.. sorta). OTOH, I suppose, twitter has the retweet.
erikb 15y ago
Can you please refer the link where Linus says anything about XFCE? The link you provided doesn't say anything about Linus dumping Gnome3 to switch to xfce. It just says he doesn't like Gnome3 and wants Gnome2 back.
- roel_v 15y ago
  Just read the whole thing, it's in there, and then it degenerates even further into wanking over whose WM is superior.
Triumvark 15y ago
The full history: Dec 13, 2005: "I encourage people to switch to KDE. This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease." - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00... Jan 26, 2009: "I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do... the whole 'break everything' model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else." - http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-identity-linux-founder.html?page=1 http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-ide... Jul 26, 2011: "I used to be upset when gnome developers decided it was "too complicated" for the user to remap some mouse buttons. In gnome3, the developers have apparently decided that it's "too complicated" to actually do real work on your desktop, and have decided to make it really annoying to do. I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really." Linus has always endorsed being pissed off at your interface and ditching it for something radically different. The current move, as you can read, is not one of satisfaction with XFCE. Clearly Linus just thinks all UIs are shit, and maybe that's a signal no one has figured this out yet, or maybe it's just a signal he's a curmudgeon. (Edited for typos - I kept swapping 'Linux' and 'Linus.')
- chucknthem 15y ago
  I somehow wish Linus would be so pissed off at these interfaces for linux that he goes out and writes something totally awesome like he did with git.
  - jamesgeck0 15y ago
    I dunno. Git did not leave me with the impression that Linus is really good at making user interfaces.
    - windsurfer 15y ago
      % git push fatal: protocol error: expected sha/ref, got ' Yes, this is an actual "helpful" error message.
pablohoffman 15y ago
I've been using tiled window managers for 7 years now (currently on awesome, which I switched 3 years ago) and the interface has always remained pretty consistent. I wonder if Linus has tried tiled WMs?
WeAreKnights 15y ago
As a designer, this kind of attitude is one of the many reasons I don't contribute to open-source projects. You can't touch anything without people complaining about change. Computers are very different than they were 20 years ago yet we're tied down to outdated interface principles. In Linux-land, we're expected to design for the way things have always been not the way they should be. It seems geeks are just as stubborn about change as everyone else.
- tucosan 15y ago
  Actually, I would be really interested on research done in this area. What are some modern UI concepts (apart from those oh so usable interfaces offered by this big fruit company)? Are there any fresh concepts out there at all? I would really like to see what might be possible if somebody really starts developing something radically different and well suited for the novice computer user and the ubergeek at the same time. Hiding complexity from the user might be one option, but there should be more ways to make use of the gui concept than just oversimplyfing things.

183 points by ricw 15y ago

sjwright 15y ago

Linus isn't the target audience for Gnome 3. Enough said, let's move on.

iam 15y ago
Haha, I was so confused. I thought Red Hat Linux was dropping Gnome3 in favor of XFCE as the default GUI shell. A few minutes later reading through the whole G+ thread it became apparent that Linus, as an individual, has decided to use XFCE. Well, good for him I guess? But how is that news?
mestudent 15y ago
I guess I am not the target audience either, but gnome2 remains my favorite desktop environment and once that is dropped from distros I will go another route, perhaps xfce but it does indeed have many shortcomings.
Joeboy 15y ago
I'm guessing you say that because you expect him to be doing crazy magic developery things that normal people don't need, but the objections he raises seem to be about fairly "normal" uses (he uses the terminal as an example but presumably it's the same for any other app).
tty 15y ago
>Linus isn't the target audience for Gnome 3. But who is the target audience for Gnome 3?
- darklajid 15y ago
  Here's one! I like the Shell. I really do. And that's from someone that - used (black|open)box for a loooong time - dislikes KDE's gazillion settings and the bling it offers I cannot point you to the single one killer feature. It just hits the sweet spot between good looking (subjective, of course) and usable (ditto). My previous workflow on any platform has been tied to something that combines searching/launching. OS X? Quicksilver. Windows? Launchy, with Windows 7 the startmenu became useable as an alternative. Linux? Gnome Do. It just comes natural now to hit super and start typing. I do understand the point of other commenters here about breaking this as a modifier key, but frankly - I never used it as such. Except for super + space to launch Gnome Do/Launchy/you see where I'm getting to.. I don't use tools that use weird (emacs, sorry, we're just not meant to be together) key combinations and I don't use composition to access accents/umlauts/special characters. Although I'm german and my keyboard layout is the US one. So: Sure, there are rough edges. It's new. But some parts of the discussion here seem to be a mixture of real issues and a healthy dose of 'omg it's different'.
  - Meai 15y ago
    Exactly. Gnome3 tries to reduce the time you spend searching for icons+windows and/or sorting them. That's the most time consuming task for a desktop user. It makes total sense to improve on that. I'm also faster at finding an icon when I first need to show the activities bar, instead of looking for it in an always-visible taskbar. How is that possible? Shouldn't the taskbar be faster to access? It's selective perception: The longer you stare at something, the less interest it holds for the brain. Example: You see 20 individual looking apples in front of you. Each has it's own shape/color. You sit in front of those apples for hours, you don't exactly recognise them during work. Focusing on them again and finding a specific one is going to take longer as if they were hidden from view and just pop into view each time you want one.
    - Dylan16807 15y ago
      I would find the exact opposite faster. Looking at something I'm used to looking at is easy, and it'll help muscle memory to be persistent. I don't have to decide I want to change, then wait while my hand triggers the popup, then parse the shapes. That's not to say that the popup isn't a good idea, but the only benefit I see is I screen space.

Enoshack 15y ago

I switched from puppy-525 default desktop to xfce - what an awsome os!

j_baker 15y ago

I predict the next Hacker News posting on Linus will be titled something like "Linus wipes his ass". Oh wait, we've already had that one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 Seriously though, who cares? Let's see postings from Linus about why he designed the Linux kernel the way he did or why git's command line interface is so damn unintuitive (this coming from a hardcore git fan before you downvote me). But posting submissions for every silly opinion he has reduces us to preteen groupies following every move of the latest teenage heartthrob.

ajross 15y ago

I came really close to the same decision. But honestly: I like gnome-shell (not all of gnome 3, the totally mucked up dconf/gconf configuration mess in F15 is unforgivable). Along with all the favorite gadgets, it also throws out a ton of crap. It just gets out of the way for the most part. The clean vertical desktop scrolling is actually a fantastic feature once you get used to it. Putting the status icon mess into a hot corner seems weird the first time, but I find I quickly got used to it and that it's a great way to save screen space. Likewise I don't need to dedicate screen space to a desktop switcher: swapping desktops via the top left hot corner can be done very accurately (after a little practice) with two quick flicks of the mouse. Dragging a window all the way to the side locks it down to a half-screen-maximized mode which duplicates almost exactly my preferred working environment and saves me a ton of fiddling. Really, I think it's a keeper. It's got some serious maturity (though not stability) problems in Fedora 15 right now. I think the defaults for some of the settings are just wrong. But overall I like it.

stephen_g 15y ago
I really like Gnome shell too, and I agree that there are a lot of settings that are just wrong by default... I have to change quite a few (many of which are stupidly hidden so I have to do it via gconf or a tweak application) each time I set up a computer with Gnome 3 to make it usable. And even then there are some design issues that totally ruin some parts of the user experience that I hope are fixed soon. For example, you can't shut down the computer. At least, you can't from the GUI without googling, and finding out about the secret key you have to hold to make the option appear. So they've gone and made an function that many users every day completely hidden and undiscoverable. And when you complain, well, of course they can't change it because "it's in The Design", as if it was a document set on a stone tablet delivered from heaven...

sriramk 15y ago

I've been using Gnome 3 for a few months now. When I started, people told me on Twitter to stick with it and that I'd grow to like it. I didn't. And after three months, I'm very tempted to turn on compat mode (something I avoid doing in most software I use)

npaquin 15y ago
Compat mode is still pretty crappy.
- logic 15y ago
  I'll second this very strongly. Compatibility mode is a shadow of what Gnome 2 used to be, and I've spent enough time using it at this point to feel pretty comfortable saying that. (And if you do any work in a VM, you too will become very familiar with compatibility mode.)

pkulak 15y ago

Linus wants a new terminal to pop up when he hits the terminal icon? That's pretty old-school behavior. OSX and Windows have long moved away from it. I don't use Gnome3, but hitting cmd+n or cmd+t when I want a new terminal doesn't seem to bother me much.

DasIch 15y ago
That behaviour makes sense for a lot of applications sure but for stuff like terminals it is really annoying. Why isn't it possible to configure that on a per-launcher basis?
- thristian 15y ago
  I spent a few years using OS X, and clicking on some corner of some terminal somewhere and hitting Cmd-N to get myself a fresh terminal (or clicking somewhere on the desktop and hitting Cmd-N to get a fresh file-manager window) was so convenient that even in GNOME 3 I have Super-N bound to 'new terminal window'.
- oconnore 15y ago
  It will be eventually, but the default behaviour is the most important thing to get right.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Configurability being added to Gnome? Ha!
ajross 15y ago
Linus is right. "Old school" or no, a new window for apps like terminal is exactly the right behavior. At least for my workflow it is: I want a shell right now, and I'll throw it away when I'm done. I worked around this by binding Ctrl-Alt-T to spawn a gnome-terminal (likewise Ctrl-Alt-E to launch a new emacs window). Happily that key customization UI survived the transition to gnome 3.

MostAwesomeDude 15y ago

I miss my CPU/RAM/NIC monitor. :c

intellection 15y ago
CPU:0.001% RAM: 7/10GB NIC: 1TB/s Remember that time we went to 100% for 1 week and overcame a process you couldn't kill? 10ve, p.c.
tspiteri 15y ago
I missed that too. Now I have found an extension, which is not yet in yum, but it's not too hard to install following the instructions in the README. https://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-applet/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/paradoxxxzero/gnome-shell-system-monitor-...
kmm 15y ago
I didn't know there was none in Gnome 3. That's a dealbreaker, I think it's an essential app(let).

mvanga 15y ago

With GNOME3, I really tried. I decided to give it some time to see if the workflow would sink in but after a month of using it, I reverted back to GNOME2. Using GNOME3 makes you feel like the developers have effectively decided how your desktop workflow should be. I'm quite disappointed with this trend towards a polished, "grandma-friendly" desktop. As of now, I'm fine with GNOME2. Perhaps I will switch to something like XFCE in the future.

kungfooguru 15y ago

meta-shift-enter = new terminal. Xmonad!

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
sciurus 15y ago
alt-enter = new teminal. http://i3wm.org/ http://i3wm.org/
sciurus 15y ago
alt-enter = new teminal. http://i3wm.org/ http://i3wm.org/
jerf 15y ago
[Any keystroke] -> New Terminal. [Any window manager worth it's salt]! I've had ALT-F2 bound to New Terminal window for the past 12 years now, through half-a-dozen window managers. ALT-F1 is new browser, and I've got some preferred CTRL-ALT-arrow keys for moving around virtual desktops. Everything has configurable keys and has for a long time, though sometimes you have to create a one-line shell script to pop up a terminal, find your local menu editor, add that script, then give that menu entry a shortcut.
zenspunk 15y ago
You can set keyboard shortcuts on Gnome 3. Though I prefer super-enter for launching gnome terminal (from my earlier ventures with awesome).
spooneybarger 15y ago
Seriously though... Xmonad is entirely unlike Gnome, KDE, XFCE et al. And thank goodness because I don't like 'desktops', overlapping windows and what not. Xmonad and its brethren wms give me what I want out of a GUI.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
With apologies to XKCD... http://i.imgur.com/EB5K9.png http://i.imgur.com/EB5K9.png

16s 15y ago

xfce4 is really awesome. I can vouch for it as well. If you need a productive, traditional desktop, then try it. The only thing I miss is the gnome samba mount options.

trotsky 15y ago

I really wanted to like Gnome 3 and gave it an extended trial run. I really like the gnome shell for the most part, overview mode, left dock, dynamic desktops. It felt right on my 14" 16x9 laptop screen. However, it took a serious hit in terms of power management and other laptop usability - no auto dim on battery? No exposed lid close event? No exposed power profiles? It also didn't feel nearly as good on my dual desktop monitors. A lot of what the shell does right is conserving real estate, but when you have a lot of it the extra room isn't so critical and you start missing some of the convenience. I did absolutely hate it until I learned a number of keyboard shortcuts and how to launch applications by typing a few letters of what you want. I am back with KDE 4.6 for now, but I am looking forward to giving it another try after they've polished it up a bit. I heard when it launched that august was a target for a point release.

IgorPartola 15y ago

Excuse me but what is Gnome3? I've been using Xubuntu and Xfce4 for a number of years now and have been really happy with it. Periodically I will try regular Ubuntu and Gnome just seems to have too many awkward issues. For example it insists on me having a desktop (preferable one full of icons and Excel spreadsheets). Even if I turn off icons on the desktop, I still must have the Desktop directory. Their file manager is also confused: it thinks I need help mounting network file systems. That's the job of things like Fuse and NFS, not of a GUI application. Things like this are the reason why I prefer not to spend too long using Gnome.

hactually 15y ago
Gnome 3 doesn't force you to use the desktop as icons etc are disabled by default. The persistent desktop directory is down to your distribution/XDG - check out ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs to remove it. As for "it thinks I need help mounting network file systems"; Could you clarify what you mean?
- IgorPartola 15y ago
  It includes the functionality to mount NFS/SMB/FTP shatlres and those options are a part of the UI. Now, like I said, I haven't used Gnome in a while, but I remember finding this somewhat frustrating since I know how to use the mount command. By contras, thunar is very simple in what it does and it does it well.

blinkingled 15y ago

Someone just needs to desktopize Honeycomb even more and port it to x86. It shouldn't be too hard to make it work better than the mess KDE and GNOME are at this point. That someone should be Intel and AMD I think - if they put their money we could really see some hope for Linux on Desktop via Tablets. Real threat to Microsoft if they can make it work great on both platforms.

darklajid 15y ago
I fail to see the point. The people that complain the most here are those that seem to fall into the "poweruser" category. That instead move off to a inferior (my view) DE like xfce just to keep their muscle memory or leave for tiling window managers, a completely different wm strategy. Why do you think that these people would love working with Android as OS/DE? It seems to me that Android is much _worse_ for them - and falls exactly into the 'We don't want something that seems to be made for tablets, we want a productive work environment' line of complaints? Edit: Oh, and let me add a snarky comment regarding 'That someone should be Intel': No, if you like to have a nice integrated environment that differs from current DEs and is tablet friendly, than Intel would be happy to see you using MeeGo, on a 'real' Linux stack.
- blinkingled 15y ago
  Yeah, MeeGo is going everywhere. Snark aside I wasn't saying use Android as is on Desktops if you read what I wrote. It is already somewhat desktop-ish and would need to be made more so but I don't see why that would be hard to do.
davidw 15y ago
> It shouldn't be too hard to make it work better than the mess KDE and GNOME are at this point. Yeah, I bet you could build that in a weekend...
- blinkingled 15y ago
  Thanks for putting the exact timeframe on it. Super useful to understand it in weekend for modifying something existing vs what do you think 4 weeks for fixing GNOME or KDE? :p Today's Dilbert is made for exactly this situation :-) http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-08-04/ http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-08-04/

Jach 15y ago

Exactly my thoughts. Once Gentoo drops gnome2 it's Xfce for me. I used it before on a low-powered laptop and it was nearly as good as gnome2, in some cases better.

whackberry 15y ago

This is going to be unpopular, I know. I'm a linux buff too, diehard fan since 1997. BUT. One has got to admit the Windows 7 interface is great. I bought a new notebook that came with it and I gotta say, I wish Linux had ONE great interface and standard GUI programming API.

stephen_g 15y ago
I was a Linux diehard too, but I got a Mac laptop and now most of the time I just use Linux through SSH or occasionally through a VM... I still love it as a development environment (I even get to do kernel hacking at work sometimes) but I'm not as sold on it as a desktop OS as I used to be...
nxn 15y ago
By "ONE" do you mean at least one, as in implying there are none right now. Or by "ONE" do you mean that you wish there would be one and only one GUI/DE for linux? If it's the first, I would agree because I would willingly pay money to use the Windows 7 or even OS X interfaces in Linux. Essentially, I feel that while Linux has software I can't live without, there is not a single WM/DE out there that I can use without being annoyed every 20 minutes or without having to spend weeks configuring it. Gnome came closest before the gnome-shell move, now KDE is the closest but it's seriously still too buggy and "WTF" inducing. I'm not sure if it would be less work to remove all the "default/assumed" features from KDE (like the wallet that irritates me even when browsing websites) or to set up XFCE to some bearable degree from scratch. Regardless, I'd still take this selection of environments that are all either ugly, time consuming to configure, buggy, or flat out annoying over having no choice at all. Even if the "no choice" option was really excellent, I would not like the thought of being stuck with it knowing that under some rare condition it might be useless and my only way out is a complete OS switch. Example: as much as I praise the windows 7 UI, I would hate to try and deal with it if I lost my ability to use a mouse. Meanwhile, I know there are nice options in the Linux world that I could use if this was the case. Pretty much it boils down to my opinion that no interface is going to be good at every use case. And for that reason I'd rather have a slew of mediocre ones that span a broader range over a single one that covers a small spectrum but does it well.

strmpnk 15y ago

I find it amusing that Linus finds what I consider annoying behavior more usable. Changing things up is always painful. I really hate clicking on Terminal and having something new pop up when I might just be trying to bring that application back into focus (to me 'one window' = 'one application' is a fallacy). EDIT: Seriously though. People are making a big deal out of someone having a different opinion. Silly.

flomo 15y ago
Gnome has been around, what, 10 years? If they are randomly changing behavior just because someone feeling it would be 'better', it indicates either nobody is using Gnome, or they don't care if anyone has been using Gnome. I don't see either Mac or Windows making these sorts of minor, workflow-breaking changes and just telling people to suck it up.
- thomas11 15y ago
  The changes are not "random", just because you don't know about the thoughts and testing that went into them. Mac made a huge all-breaking change with Mac OS X. That only occurs every few years, but as you say, Gnome 2 is ten years old. Then Lion introduced all kinds of workflow-breaking changes, like the automatic spelling correction, the "overview mode" or whatever it's called, the reversed scrolling. And you have to suck it up that much more on Mac OS, because there's just no way to install a different version of the interface.
  - ptomato 15y ago
    Two of those examples (spelling correction and reversed scrolling) are user configurable settings. Mission control I'd say is less of a workflow breaking change and more of the natural evolution of exposé & spaces.
- strmpnk 15y ago
  I agree. I do find it odd that they are changing things in one direction rather than making it optional or spinning off another project. Personally, I look forward to change even now, since computers are far from perfect.

hristov 15y ago

So the same shitstorm that hit when the new Ubuntu interface came on is now hitting Gnome 3. I wish the Linux interface designers would realize that desktops are not tablets and that they should be making a super polished desktop interface and not trying to break everything down. The good thing about Linux though is that in Linux you always have options. There is always another GUI. So I think linux should be able to survive this wrong turn relatively unscathed.

ori_b 15y ago
Heh. I agree. But while you're telling that to the Linux guys, remember to tell it to both the Windows 8 and OSX Lion designers as well.
- Derbasti 15y ago
  Actually, I feel that while Win7 and Lion simplified things, they didn't really take many features away. Some Linux designers seem to confuse removing complexity with removing functionality. But then, this is Linux, so someone will add the functionality and complexity back in soon enough.
- hristov 15y ago
  You are right. I just don't care much about what MS or Apple do with their UI's nowadays.
munchhausen 15y ago
s/Linux interface designers/GNOME interface designers/ I don't think that KDE4 or Xfce, much less other alternatives, are moving towards a tablet-inspired interface.

f7u12 15y ago

I always thought I was weird for liking XFCE more than Gnome. Sounds like I'm not and it's time to give Xubuntu a full-time shot, especially with Unity being the default in Ubuntu now.

papaf 15y ago
I recently changed from Xubuntu to Mint XFCE and really like it: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725 http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725 Xubuntu is still an excellent choice though.
- sandGorgon 15y ago
  hey thanks - that was a really interesting find. However, it is a rolling distro based on Debian Testing. I hope that doesnt mean frequent instability.
  - marrs 15y ago
    Debian Testing is stable enough for the desktop. It should be fine, plus you don't get the inconvenience caused by upgrading every 6 months.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

1amzave 15y ago

My biggest problem with Gnome 3 (and the number one reason I abandoned it in favor of Xmonad, which I've come to like quite a lot), was that it breaks the UI concept of the modifier key. Simply pressing and releasing the super key (with no other keypress in between) triggers a change of state (bringing up the "overview" or whatever it's called). The modifier key is such a basic interface concept that I struggle to imagine why they would go out of their way to break it -- any way I look at it, it's just monumentally idiotic. And best of all, I could find no way of disabling it. Admittedly, they're not the first to do this. OpenOffice has done something similar for quite a while (pressing and releasing a modifier key brings up a menu); that was one of the many things about OO that pissed me off. Nevertheless, precedent is insufficient justification for such a thoroughly moronic change. I've been wanting to rant about that for a while now, glad to get it off my chest. Thankfully, Xmonad is fantastic, so in a way I'm grateful to Gnome 3 for leading me to switch to it.

thristian 15y ago
It's not without precedent; In Windows, tapping the Alt key moves keyboard focus to the menu-bar (at least, it did in older version of Windows that had standard menu bars). To be fair, I've nobbled that particular behaviour of GNOME 3.0 because it prevents using the Super key for any other keyboard shortcuts. If I read bugzilla rightly, that should be fixed in 3.2, though.
- andregawron 15y ago
  You can actually make the Super-Key usable again. Goto Region and Language -> Keyboard Layout Options and tick "Hyper is mapped to Win-keys" [1]. After that, you can use the super key again for shortcuts. I moved the activity window to Super-A but actually never use it. [1] Image: http://www.andre-gawron.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/key.png http://www.andre-gawron.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/key.pn... [2] Full blog entry: http://www.andre-gawron.de/383/amsterdam-peek-gnome-3-a-new-hobby http://www.andre-gawron.de/383/amsterdam-peek-gnome-3-a-new-...
  - thristian 15y ago

nodata 15y ago

Gnome3 doesn't fail because of that - it fails because it doesn't alert the user and teach them the changes as they use Gnome3. For example. I have Firefox running. I want another Firefox window, so I click the Firefox icon. At this point, why doesn't Gnome3 say "Hey! Just so you know, you've already got a Firefox window open, so we'll take you to that - but if you want a NEW Firefox window, click the logo again while holding down Control".

wisty 15y ago
The last time someone tried that in a big way was MSOffice. Remember the paperclip? People's reaction was so violently negative everyone has been scared to try it again.
- nodata 15y ago
  No that's not the same. The paperclip was something separate, on another part of the screen, that tried to "help" for absolutely everything, constantly, and again and again. I'm suggesting something similar to what gmail does: when a new feature is launched you get a popup box near the new feature with an arrow pointing to the feature explaining two things: 1. What it does and why it would be useful 2. How to get rid of the popup box, but also how to get the info from the popup box again later if you need it.

zokier 15y ago

Interesting that he felt the need to change to either Gnome3 or XFCE. Why not keep using Gnome2 if it works for him? If enough people would keep using Gnome2 it probably could be forked like KDE3 was forked (although I'm not sure if Trinity actually survived)

ristretto 15y ago

I try hard to stick to XFCE, but after every update, ubuntu replaces thunar with nautilus

markokocic 15y ago

I'm much happier since I abandoned both Gnome and KDE, and went with StumpWM instead.

cabalamat 15y ago

While we're at it, distros should upgrade KDE4 back to KDE3. I switched from KDE4 to Gnome 2 because KDE4 was so bad.

coffeeaddicted 15y ago
I can't get used to Gnome, can't get used to KDE4 (and while we're at it - also not to Windows 7). Maybe because I grew up with older Desktop Environments, but nothing even comes close to KDE 3.5.10 for me. Since I updated to Debian Squeeze which no longer used KDE 3.5 I've stopped being happy when working on my system :-( I'll have to check-out Trinity at some time, I'm just a little worried if that project has the man-power to really keep KDE 3.5 alive.
jpr 15y ago
When was the last time you tried KDE4? I found that it was very unstable and buggy when I first tried it when it came out. Nowadays it seems stable (haven't had it crash anymore), and much less buggy (ie. normal level of bugginess).
- cabalamat 15y ago
  > When was the last time you tried KDE4? About a month or so ago. > I found that it was very unstable and buggy when I first tried it when it came out. My problem with it isn't bugginess, it's that they'd removed the existing UI and replaced it with new stuff that worked differently. This means that I no longer know where to find stuff (e.g. for configuration). Also some of the new interface I really don't like, e.g. they have replace the main menu with a scrolling menu that only shows a few options at a time, so I have to scroll up and down to see all the options. This "feature" on its own is one I dislike so much that I will not willingly use this interface.

pagejim 15y ago

I think its time someone provided an alternative to the big two, GNOME and KDE. They have been around a long time and I guess reached their pinnacle. A nice, lightweight, intuitive environment minus all the fuss and cpu hog would be welcome by many I guess.

Kwpolska 15y ago
Xfce?
- pagejim 15y ago
  Yes, that's one of the options. With Linus now adopting it, guess more will follow !!

D3lt4 15y ago

"I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3." I like Gnome 3 (quite a bit), then again I don't know Linus. On a another note, it seems every time he speaks he gets several hundred likes and yet he doesn't say anything particularly special/insightful compare to the other people in conversation (I found this somewhat humorous). :)

olsonjeffery 15y ago
This seems to be the same for other uber-celebs who are posting on G+ (the only other person in his league of popularity who I read with any regularity would probably have to be Markus Perrson (aka @Notch), and it's the exact same thing for his posts.. although I also observe this on posts from Randall Munroe, Leo Laporte, etc). When contrasted against twitter (which has the similar "pick who you want to follow" semantics), G+ has a more succinct ego-stroking mechanism for people who want to make their sycophancy more apparent (I kid, I kid.. sorta). OTOH, I suppose, twitter has the retweet.

erikb 15y ago

Can you please refer the link where Linus says anything about XFCE? The link you provided doesn't say anything about Linus dumping Gnome3 to switch to xfce. It just says he doesn't like Gnome3 and wants Gnome2 back.

roel_v 15y ago
Just read the whole thing, it's in there, and then it degenerates even further into wanking over whose WM is superior.

Triumvark 15y ago

The full history: Dec 13, 2005: "I encourage people to switch to KDE. This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease." - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00... Jan 26, 2009: "I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do... the whole 'break everything' model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else." - http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-identity-linux-founder.html?page=1 http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-ide... Jul 26, 2011: "I used to be upset when gnome developers decided it was "too complicated" for the user to remap some mouse buttons. In gnome3, the developers have apparently decided that it's "too complicated" to actually do real work on your desktop, and have decided to make it really annoying to do. I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really." Linus has always endorsed being pissed off at your interface and ditching it for something radically different. The current move, as you can read, is not one of satisfaction with XFCE. Clearly Linus just thinks all UIs are shit, and maybe that's a signal no one has figured this out yet, or maybe it's just a signal he's a curmudgeon. (Edited for typos - I kept swapping 'Linux' and 'Linus.')

chucknthem 15y ago
I somehow wish Linus would be so pissed off at these interfaces for linux that he goes out and writes something totally awesome like he did with git.
- jamesgeck0 15y ago
  I dunno. Git did not leave me with the impression that Linus is really good at making user interfaces.
  - windsurfer 15y ago
    % git push fatal: protocol error: expected sha/ref, got ' Yes, this is an actual "helpful" error message.

pablohoffman 15y ago

I've been using tiled window managers for 7 years now (currently on awesome, which I switched 3 years ago) and the interface has always remained pretty consistent. I wonder if Linus has tried tiled WMs?

WeAreKnights 15y ago

As a designer, this kind of attitude is one of the many reasons I don't contribute to open-source projects. You can't touch anything without people complaining about change. Computers are very different than they were 20 years ago yet we're tied down to outdated interface principles. In Linux-land, we're expected to design for the way things have always been not the way they should be. It seems geeks are just as stubborn about change as everyone else.

tucosan 15y ago
Actually, I would be really interested on research done in this area. What are some modern UI concepts (apart from those oh so usable interfaces offered by this big fruit company)? Are there any fresh concepts out there at all? I would really like to see what might be possible if somebody really starts developing something radically different and well suited for the novice computer user and the ubergeek at the same time. Hiding complexity from the user might be one option, but there should be more ways to make use of the gui concept than just oversimplyfing things.