25 ms·

Clarifications regarding arrest of climate activist

470 points by kdunglas 5y ago

kdunglas 5y ago
This follows https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259
YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
Disclaimer: I am a paying customer. Very classy post. To-the-point. There are limitations with digital services. If you don't like what happened, you need to change things. They only way to change things is to change the law. This begins with voting.
- sshine 5y ago
  ...from prison, where you were put because your email provider's guarantees eroded over time.
  - DanHulton 5y ago
    Did you read the article? Because their guarantees didn't "erode over time," this exact attack vector, and how to mitigate it, was disclosed in their public report over five years ago.
- blueline 5y ago
  What do I do when not a single candidate in any election that I can vote in has even heard of, much less taken my preferred position on, this issue?
  - WJW 5y ago
    - Lobby with the existing candidates (and/or incumbents) to get them to take a stand on this issue. - Same point as before but indirectly: gather public support by leveraging the (social) media available to you. - If all else fails: run for office yourself.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > - If all else fails: run for office yourself. I advise all, especially Americans, to do this first.
    - GreenWatermelon 5y ago
      And, if all of this fails and your country appears to be corrupted, consider protesting. Revolting might become necessary depending on the condition.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    Run yourself
- polote 5y ago
  The only issue here, is that Proton said on their homepage that they don't log IP, but they in fact do it when asked by the police. Vote will not impact that. Anonymity doesn't exists for GAFA or Big governments on internet that's all, if you are not happy with that, you can vote as you want it will not change. But anonymity in society will soon stop existing as well. With all cameras that we have everywhere, we just need the Chinese facial recognition system and that will be the end. That's how it is.
  - YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
    They have always said that. Years go.
- viktorcode 5y ago
  Or, you could change the country of your email provider.
- ezluckyfree 5y ago
  It's very rare to actually change things in a liberal democracy with voting. This is a central contradiction of the system, because there is very little incentive for existing governments to offer the ability to vote for policies which would change the status quo. Probably doubly so with something as subversive as what you are suggesting, states don't like it when non-states are able to keep secrets. Modern labor rights, environmental policy, and basic equality for marginalized groups (women, POC, LGBT people etc.) under the law, are frequently touted as victories of liberal democratic systems but almost all of these rights exist because of massive civil disobedience, and often violent protests. In all cases, you need huge support of the voter base for a particular issue before voting for a candidate to represent it is ever an option. Even then, there is simply no way to hold elected officials accountable to implementing their platform, and how could there be? No plurality of elected officials would ever want to pass that law in the first place.
  - ploika 5y ago
    It might largely depend on whether you live somewhere with proportional representation or not. Full-on revolution at the ballot box is rare in liberal democracies, sure, but single-issue candidates get elected pretty commonly and often have outsized influence if they're needed for a coalition government.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Women's rights actually occurred in defiance of popular numbers by a vote. In the US, the same thing happened for integration of schools. You do, typically, need a majority of the voters to agree with you. In representative democracy that means you need a plurality of representatives. Candidates can and do lie. That is something you need to evaluate as part of voting for them.
    - ezluckyfree 5y ago
      In defiance of popular numbers, but as a result of decades of (mostly illegal) protests.
  - eterevsky 5y ago
macinjosh 5y ago
As always, the root problem is abuse of citizens and the law perpetrated by the government. Using terror laws to go after a climate activist is peak authoritarian for western democracies so far. Our climate is failing and instead of listening to those speaking up they jail them.
- noncompliant 5y ago
  the capitalist class will do anything to protect its interests. if it means sacrificing democracy, so be it. its nothing really surprising
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Oh man, if you think the capitalists are bad wait until you hear about the fascists, the communists and the monarchs!
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      That's a pretty weak response, most likely someone being negative about capitalists are already upset about all the ones you mention. More transparency and more equality is what many are looking for are your response dies not cover that at all.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  It’s hard for me to even find info about what the group did but this sure doesn’t look like terror. https://www.flickr.com/photos/dprezat/50386413932 https://www.flickr.com/photos/dprezat/50386413932
- sennight 5y ago
  > Using terror laws to go after a climate activist is peak authoritarian for western democracies so far. It wasn't too long ago that Eco-terrorism was a thing that resulted in people's homes being burned down. I have a family member who got injured as a result of somebody digging holes in a fairly remote grass air strip. I'm sure somebody would describe the guy with a post hole digger as a heroic "climate activist". This situation doesn't appear to be that, but that might provide a little good faith context for why law enforcement would be interested in going after the likes of ELF.
indymike 5y ago
This is the exact kind of clarity that was needed for users to have confidence in their understanding of Protonmail. Andy Yen (Proton CEO) is a very thoughtful communicator and is making the world better. At some point everything on the internet becomes local, because people and businesses eventually must exist at a location in the real world. Proton is always going to be subject to local law enforcement wherever they are based.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
It seems like they could've simplified their explanations about only Swiss law applying by simply recommending Swiss users go elsewhere. It seems like the safest way to use email is to use email operated outside your own country.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  I think you're misinterpreting. It doesn't matter where the user is from at all. They are obligated to disclose certain things if they get a request from the Swiss authorities, but it certainly does not only apply to people living in Switzerland. It simply means that if, lets say the US, govt makes a request, they are not obligated to comply unless they are specifically requested by the Swiss authorities.
- nucleogenesis 5y ago
  I think the French asked the Swiss to aid them in the investigation. Idk the whole story but I think it was to get some squatting climate activists (you know, super serious crimes…). The linked post by Proton suggests VPN and Tor usage for better anonymity.
- lucozade 5y ago
  I don't believe the person involved was Swiss. My understanding is that a request was made to the Swiss authorities by the French authorities. So, to avoid this, a user would need to not be accused of a crime in a country that is on speaking terms with Switzerland.
  - kazen44 5y ago
    which is basically all of the EU and surrounding countries. this has been the case for a very long time. (more then 80 years in the benelux for example).
jijji 5y ago
if you think your email provider is immune to search warrants, thats your first mistake... how about dont use email to conduct your illegal business?
- SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
  Are we now calling climate activism "illegal business"?
  - temp8964 5y ago
    Certain behaviors (such as occupy other people's property) do not suddenly become legal/ethical just because you have a climate activism agenda in your head.
    - jaggs 5y ago
      Most social change over the years has happened because of activist action which was considered 'illehal' at the time. Civil rights, workers rights, voting emancipation etc etc. Legal and ethical are not necessarily the same thing.
  - Avamander 5y ago
    Keep in mind that illegal does not mean unethical, and vice versa. Parent comment is just stating what it was.
- istingray 5y ago
  Journalists, whistleblowers, and teachers in certain countries are performing "illegal business".
- dafelst 5y ago
  Don't conflate "illegal" with "wrong". Obviously there is a lot of overlap, but the reality is that civil disobedience is often the only way to force changes in unjust laws, history (even incredibly recently) has proven that time and time again.
rogers18445 5y ago
> Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders. This is false. Each time you visit protonmail you re-download (cache can be invalidated) their client. It would be trivial for them to serve a specific user a modified client which uploads their encryption keys. This problem is not specific to protonmail, any service which contends to be secure with respect to some server (the protocol relies on the client to decrypt stuff the server cannot) can be compromised this way because of implicit trust in the client software which can be modified at any time with no notice - making any auditing entirely meaningless in the case of targeted attacks. This problem should perhaps be addressed by browsers since it seems they are becoming pseudo operating systems.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  They say "cannot be compromised by legal orders" and they say they are bound by and only by swiss laws. Maybe what they mean is that the swiss authorities have no legal basis on which to force them to serve a modified, backdoored, client like the one you're talking about.
  - FootballMuse 5y ago
    $5 wrench is pretty effective
    - gruez 5y ago
      $5 wrench does not fall under "legal orders"
      - FootballMuse 5y ago
        Yes, probably not. The point is that there are other ways to "force them to serve a modified, backdoored, client"
        cto_of_antifa 5y ago
MitchellCash 5y ago
> Under Swiss law, it is obligatory for a user to be notified if a third party makes a request for their private data and such data is to be used in a criminal proceeding. They’re not explicit with regards to the activist, this would mean the activist was notified upon ProtonMail receiving the request? I’m not sure there’s much you can do but lawyer up if you receive such a notice, but potentially the activist could have immediately started using Tor (maybe too late though, because to read the notice they might have already leaked their IP).
kodah 5y ago
Does anyone have information on what the climate activist is accused of? This is the only thing I've found: > For the past year, a group of people have taken over a handful of commercial premises and apartments near Place Sainte Marthe in Paris. They want to fight against gentrification, real estate speculation, Airbnb and high-end restaurants. While it started as a local conflict, it quickly became a symbolic campaign. They attracted newspaper headlines when they started occupying premises rented by Le Petit Cambodge — a restaurant that was targeted by the November 13th, 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris.
- snakeboy 5y ago
  I found this page [0] (in French). I don't know how reliable this website (or my French, for that matter) is, but it seems like its a group of activists illegally squatting, damaging the property (at least changing the locks) and causing some public disturbances in the street, and the police were having a difficult time catching them. This email account was linked to the organization's Twitter account, and from there they were able to put together enough information to arrest. [0] https://paris-luttes.info/recit-policier-de-sainte-marthe-15258?lang=fr https://paris-luttes.info/recit-policier-de-sainte-marthe-15...
  - woko 5y ago
    So that activist was the leader and social media coordinator of the group.
  - hocuspocus 5y ago
    In short, a judge ordered the eviction, the BAC (French police's anticrime unit) proceeded and 50-60 people intervened and tried to stop them, at least two officers were injured, one had to take 15 days off.
tlogan 5y ago
I still do not understand what is point of ProtonMail: they are same as others. Google, MS or Apple will not sent your data to gov without court order. ProtonMail is the same. And I bet that these big corporations have better security. Please advise…
- typon 5y ago
  ProtonMail messages can be end-to-end encrypted and they aren't scanned for serving ads to you. ProtonMail might be the same with regards to metadata, but they offer an onion site to mitigate that risk to a certain extent.
- nabakin 5y ago
  I'm sure Google and MS have a lot more data to give in an information request than ProtonMail. According to what ProtonMail has posted, they only turned over an IP address. Google and MS would probably have your account name, contents of your emails, login session times, all recorded IP addresses you've logged in from, all recorded devices you've logged in from, etc. I'm not sure about Apple though.
  - beermonster 5y ago
    Google literally log every thing you do[1] [1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-delete-google-search-history-tracking https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-delete-google-search-...
- windthrown 5y ago
  The "data" in this case was the user's IP address and time they logged in. Other providers might be able to be compelled to provide much more explicit data such as email content or the user's identity.
- beermonster 5y ago
  ProtonMail to ProtonMail emails are e2ee. Emails sent outside of ProtonMail ecosystem can still be secured with a password with a link to the email hosted at ProtonMail. ProtonMail uses zero-access encryption, which means it is technically impossible for them to decrypt user messages. When you sign up with Google you have to give them a phone number and other details which ProtonMail don’t require. In relation to GMail specifically see[1] [1] https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-vs-gmail-security/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-vs-gmail-security/
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
I'm not quite following: > ProtonMail does not give data to foreign governments; that’s illegal under Article 271 of the Swiss Criminal code. We only comply with legally binding orders from Swiss authorities. But the arrest was by the French police. So the Swiss government used a warrant to get info from PM and then passed it to France because the charges passed muster under Swiss law ("Swiss authorities will only approve requests which meet Swiss legal standards (the only law that matters is Swiss law)")?
- kazen44 5y ago
  the difference here being that protonmail gave the data to the swiss government. which in term passed it to the French for its police investigation. cross border criminal investigation and police cooperation is very common in Europe, and fully within swiss law.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Okay, that's what I was wondering; I wasn't giving an option, just trying to figure out how a Swiss investigation resulted French police arresting someone. So thanks:)
- jacksonkmarley 5y ago
  I think it was a request from a French police investigation to provide the data, which makes the Swiss government ordering PM to reveal user details seem very generous IMO. If I were Swiss I would probably want a bit more restriction on potentially arbitrary foreign government requests.
potatoeater515 5y ago
Throwaway. As the manager of various accounts used by environmental and social activists on Protonmail, this is really bad. I understand they have to follow Swiss law, but surely there are higher standard and processes than: police forward foreign request. Don't challenge or question, just do task required. Interpol requests are not as universally recognized as what some people here are alluding to. Countries can file these requests with interpol but it's up each country to determine if they act or recognize the request. If the Chinese government files 500 requests via interpol and the swiss police merely pass them on the proton, will proton mail automatically comply and install malware on their client on targeted accounts? I hope this is not the case but I expect this to be clarified. On th face of it, organizing an occupy protest hardly seems to pas the bar of "serious criminal cases"
- tlogan 5y ago
  Sadly, it is impossible hide your identity from gov and legal enforcement (from US to China) if you use any commercial service. As far as I know, FBI knows identity of all “ransomware” hackers. But they just cannot get them.
  - shadowprofile76 5y ago
    Could you explain or substantiate this claim in a bit more detail? How is it absolutely impossible to find anonymity using any commercial service? and where did you hear that all the ransomware hackers are known?
- windthrown 5y ago
  Your concerns are valid but I think you are downplaying this by characterizing it as "swiss police merely pass them to proton". Protonmail recieved a legally binding order from the Swiss Federal Department of Justice. I'm not saying Swiss laws are infallible but this request was not simply "forwarded": "Swiss authorities will only approve requests which meet Swiss legal standards (the only law that matters is Swiss law)" As they mentioned in the blog post, they do challenge many of these requests but it was not legally possible in this case.
not1ofU 5y ago
Can the Swiss Government still claim neutrality after this?
- Tomte 5y ago
  You mean by executing a warrant they somehow entered into a military bloc? Must be strange membership rules.
  - not1ofU 5y ago
    ha, was tounge in cheek, however, the post by PM CEO said the following on Twitter [0]: "In this particular case, the suspect unfortunately did break Swiss law, and there was simply no possibility to fight the decision made by the Swiss Federal Department of Justice." How does squating in France break swiss law? [0] - https://twitter.com/andyyen/status/1434665940696846340 https://twitter.com/andyyen/status/1434665940696846340
    - detaro 5y ago
      "would the same thing be against the law if it happened here" is a somewhat common benchmark in treaties and laws about respecting and acting on foreign law enforcement requests, presumably that's what's meant. (When it comes to extraditions it's often called the "dual criminality" requirement, and can involve quite a bit of transfer to make things comparable. E.g. since Assange is charged with conspiring with Manning to steal US military data, the UK extradition ruling was considering if it would have been a crime in the UK if he had conspired with a UK service member to steal UK data)
bluelu 5y ago
So in other words, protonmail is only safe if you use it for tax evasion, as there the swiss authorities won't help foreign governments.
- tyingq 5y ago
  It's not a huge leap from a tax evasion charge to something the Swiss would help with. Money laundering maybe.
- tonfa 5y ago
  They've been doing data sharing for a few years already, banking secrecy is only for swiss residents now.
istingray 5y ago
Disclaimer: Paying Protonmail customer This is a weak response. "What we're changing" isn't specific. It's a "our shit doesn't stink" kind of reply. "What we're changing" should be far more specific. Start educating users about Tor on your homepage. Start blogging about Tor more than once in 2017. Have a score for how many users log in through Tor. Have a score for how many times your privacy policy is loaded. Stop claiming to be the best simply because you have a Tor site with an old version of your app. That's not good enough. I'm looking for leadership. Protonmail is clearly an "explainer" more than a leader. I'll keep my eyes peeled for whoever comes along to replace them.
- forix 5y ago
  Seems like CTemplar (based in Iceland) supports Tor [0] and looks pretty good based on the comparison table they posted on their blog [1]. [0] https://ctemplar.com/how-ctemplar-over-tor-makes-your-email-more-anonymous-and-secure/ https://ctemplar.com/how-ctemplar-over-tor-makes-your-email-... [1] https://ctemplar.com/email-comparison-table/ https://ctemplar.com/email-comparison-table/
un_montagnard 5y ago
The crux of the matter is very simple: do not break Swiss law when using ProtonMail.
- bifrost 5y ago
  Or protonmail doesn't protect suspected terrorists?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    When the definition of "suspected" is "a foreign government claimed", no one is safe. (I know that's not a fair representation of the facts of this case, but neither is calling the suspect a "terrorist").
beermonster 5y ago
TL;DR They don’t log IP addresses. But they can be compelled to by Swiss law and they cannot NOT oblige as it’s trivial for them to do at various levels in their stack without even needing to modify their software. So they advise you to use their onion address if you need to anonymity. Don’t know why they can’t plonk a tcpip->tor->ProtonMail reverse proxy in front of their infra offering this facility to every connecting client, and transparently. After all, their services (including ProtonVPN) already support tor to some extent.
flotzam 5y ago
They claim to have exceptionally good Tor support, when in reality people have (rightly) been screaming at them for years now to fix their permabroken Tor signup flow. 1. It's impossible to create a paid account with cryptocurrency: You can only use it to pay for an existing account 2. It's impossible to anonymously create any account over Tor: You have to at least pass SMS / secondary email verification, and it better not be an easy to get address ("Email verification temporarily disabled for this email domain" etc.) Lots of marketing and boxticking (.onion: check), but it looks curiously hostile to anonymity if you actually try to use it.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  They are an email provider. Providing true anonymity leads to spam abuse. Spam abuse leads to blacklisting. And blacklisting leads to bankruptcy. Not sure what people expect.
  - istingray 5y ago
    Figure out how to solve it. People need to be able to create accounts through Tor. Otherwise I'll just use Gmail it's free.
    - woko 5y ago
      > I'll just use Gmail it's free. So that is your alternative... Not sure what your threat model was.
      - istingray 5y ago
        My threat model is an un-educated population of people who don't value privacy or care about surveillance. I'll put up with shitty tools in the mean time but can only support those who are building a better future. I would switch to Gmail and donate my $50/year to EFF.
        JadeNB 5y ago
djoldman 5y ago
I imagine protonmail users would like to know exactly what types of data are provided to authorities if they are compelled to provide it. Is it a list of access time, IP tuples? Is that it or more?
yololol 5y ago
> Due to Proton’s strict privacy, we do not know the identity of our users, and at no point were we aware that the targeted users were climate activists I don't understand what this is about. Would they had refused to comply, was that the case?
- dngray 5y ago
  that they didn't/can't read their email because it was encrypted
LightG 5y ago
Non-expert here. What are the best alternatives to ProtonMail?
- aembleton 5y ago
  I guess it depends what you mean by best? Best at sending emails - gmail.com is good at that. Something that claims great security - you could try https://mailfence.com/ https://mailfence.com/
  - LightG 5y ago
    Thanks, and yes, I could have been more precise. I'll take a look at the latter.
smnrchrds 5y ago
I understand the points about having to comply with laws. But what is is unjustifiable is my view is that their marketing does not match the reality. They probably did some A/B testing and saw that keeping vague promises about not tracking users increases conversion rate. You, as an HN reader, being in the top 0.1% of the population in terms of tech-savviness, may be able to read through the nonsense and understand how little it means when they say "by default, we do not keep any IP logs". But the other 99.9% of the population won't understand it, and that's why their marketing strategy works: they are selling a level of privacy that does not exist to customers who do not know better without technically lying. Their threat model and all threat scenarios should be front and centre on their front page and sign up page. That is if they care about user privacy not just the bottom line. They have a choice between better-informed customers or more money, and so far, they have chosen the latter. What this and the new Apple debacle have proven to me is that privacy is not a product that can be purchased. If you want real privacy, you have spend a lot of time learning how to preserve your privacy. No matter what Apple and ProtonMail and similar companies tell you, you cannot buy privacy off-the-shelf.
- istingray 5y ago
  I wonder if the future of a company like Protonmail is that it has to be open source. Almost like simply an API, no privacy statement, no marketing, just a smart contract. More like UniSwap.
  - ta988 5y ago
    How do you do emails on a blockchain? Is that another of those scenarios where "it will work when everybody will switch to the chain" ?
    - wallacoloo 5y ago
      The naive way would just be to send a transaction to the recipient’s wallet address (or more practically, their ENS name) where the transaction payload is an encrypted text message. As you point out, that requires both parties be on the blockchain. If you want to send/receive off-chain, you would probably just set up a trusted relay. e.g. send an ethereum tx to emailrelay.eth and it would forward it over the SMTP system. Send an email from a SMTP client to recipientaddr.eth@emailrelay.eth.link and it’ll do the reverse. This implementation would have the relay see all your plaintext messages. Not much different from how centralized email services like gmail operate, in practice. There’s nothing that makes any of this technically infeasible to a knowledgeable dev today — maybe it even already exists (ethmail.cc shows there’s at least interest in it). Transaction fees kill this from a practicality point of view. Probably you want to roll this out on a layer 2 network, and those are still pretty new things.
ur-whale 5y ago
> Due to Proton’s strict privacy, we do not know the identity of our users, and That is not something I'm ready to believe. I remember trying to sign for a protonmail account a while back. At some point in the process, they do ask for a valid cell phone number, which, unless you go to the length of getting a burner (not easy in many European countries except maybe the UK) basically means they know exactly who you are. When I saw this, I walked away. > under Swiss law, Proton can be forced to collect information on accounts belonging to users under Swiss criminal investigation. There's complying with the law like a good little sheep, and there's acceptable civil disobedience. In this specific instance, proton should have taken the latter approach. Take the fine, go to court, fight the injunction tooth and nail, make sure that even if they lose, the Swiss govt. knows the kind of fight and waste of time and money they're in for each time they come knocking. They just bent and complied like good little boys. Now their business model is compromised, serves them right.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
avodonosov 5y ago
What does the word "activist" mean in this case? What form did the activism take, that a criminal case was opened?
- cryptonym 5y ago
  That's the small story in the bigger one. In the end, Proton is failing to deliver service that claimed to not record PII therefore failing protect their users. One could argue they only protect good users - as defined by Swiss law. Then what's the point of Proton? Next time, a whistleblower from a Swiss bank or agency?
  - avodonosov 5y ago
    I understand that Proton failing the privacy expectations. But curious about the other part of the story. The word "activist" is abused very often. I can not find the details, what exactly they are trying to dress up as "activism" is this case. Also, "activist arrested" makes impression he was arrested for activism. But strictly speaking, the charge may be totally unrelated.
system2 5y ago
Ha ha. For years HN was almost fanatic about ProtonMail. It is funny to see how things change 180 in a day. Same thing happened to Apple with CSAM. Seriously I thought I was the uncool kid for not using ProtonMail and some other HN favorites. In the end, they are all someone's server with unknown connections. Do not trust other companies no matter what. Period.
- sabellito 5y ago
  You... are happy and find it funny that a service that was deemed trustworthy is not as much as previously thought?
  - meowster 5y ago
    I think OP found the rate of change funny, not the underlying issue. > It is funny to see how things change 180 in a day.
  - system2 5y ago
    Fanboyism what gets me.
steveharman 5y ago
From their website, regarding Onion: "...we are one of the only email providers that supports this). " What now?
rinron 5y ago
No company or organization can sustainably stop a determined government request that they continue to operate in financially or physically. It doesn't matter what the company says at some point they will be forced to either shutdown or give in eg lavabit(1). The government can trace and stop the flow of all or most of their money threating their primary motivation for the business. Or they can physically detain people or equipment required to function. the only way for an entity to never comply with government orders and continue to function is to remain anonymous and their servers accessible only via temporary addresses or tor since static ip's and domains can be taken away. Making it impossible for receiving email and more effort than the average person would want to access. It then becomes a catch 22 as you cant fully trust an anonymous, transient entity since their motivation can never be verified(they could be a honey trap), they can rarely be held accountable if they betray you, and they could be replaced or compelled to comply without anyone knowing(someone part of a visible physical social network could have friends put out a warning if something suspicious happened to them). What it comes down to is what we already know. they only way to be sure your email provider wont hand over your emails is to run your own email server anonymously. For anyone who cant do that protonmail is still likely the best choice even if its imperfect. plus adding whatever other layers of protection on top you are capable of. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
LWIRVoltage 5y ago
It appears they didn't start logging until ordered to. So, this might be in line with their policy of not having logs by default- but I have to wonder if this applies to phone numbers(which the crowd that signs up using VPN/TOR reports that they're required to provide). If they don't keep that info, then Protonmail would be solid as long as you access it via VPN well before a order tells them to start monitoring the IP. I'm also curious, I see here they do this for spammers - there is no way, a better system can't be created to 'verify' users against spammers ,since I see their logic here that spammers are why they do it https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/phnyd9/why_is_proton_so_heavily_recommended/hbt8mu8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/phnyd9/why_is_p... I'm aware that every other major email provider bans your account if you don't provide a phone umber shortly after account creation, such as Outlook for example. (Others require phone numbers up front, and all of them ban VOIP numbers) We're nearly at the point that you can't email anyone without providing your phone number or other details...I know social media is already like that. One thing i noticed, For things like Discord even, if you make an account, give them a non-major email address and they then force you to give a email, or else you can't sign in to that formal account. for now one can still use a permalink to get to a discord server without having to make an account...for now.. Protonmail is a standout if they don't log any of it, and still the best option left in the world, but this is still a icky situation. I see also they point out Swiss law means this cannot happen to the ProtonVPN service, as email providers are specifically legally in the situation they have to allow active monitoring. Not for Swiss VPN providers... And one needs a 'big' email provider address, or else it gets rejected by multiple services now that require a email address for sign up or usage. I hope they clarify that payment details /phone numbers of TOR/VPN users doesn't get logged, like IP addresses, by default. Also, more importantly- that they move forward in fully dissuading spammers, and remove the phone requirement of people signing up anonymously
moedersmooiste 5y ago
Maybe a bit off topic, but is Mixmaster/Mixminion still a viable option? I can still remember playing around with Mixmaster many years ago but mail delivery was not 100% reliable.
exabrial 5y ago
I'd like to know who the activist is and what the alleged crime is. The bar is set very high for Switzerland.
koreanguy 5y ago
to the idiots who are using protonmail, you silly hipsters deserve it.
joering2 5y ago
> We are also deeply concerned about this case and deplore that the legal tools for serious crimes are being used in this way. Good PR job! Instead of saying "okay we remove "by default" from our marketing materials because yeah if LE ask us to start logging, we gladly do whatever the case against someone is, i.e. jaywalking", they simply post a fake outrage in hope to minimize people leaving them. Well, I wasn't to, but now after this blog, I am moving away my 8 domains on platinum account. I mean seriously Google Suite is $6 per month, so why the heck should I need this fancy email hosting in the middle of Switzerland mountain BS, if at the end of the day they will comply with everything LE will throw at them, and then some. Seriously at this point it looks like Google legal arm is better at trying to fight subpoenas against you and force LE to show serious crimes, than Proton is.
joering2 5y ago
> Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders. This is false. Just like LE forced them to turn on IP logging on someones account, same LE can force them - by law - to install some javascript code to AJAX back home the unencrypted content of the email once the client opens their email. How stupid do they think people are?? > There was no legal possibility to resist or fight this particular request. WTF? So Switzerland is a fascist or authoritarian state now that you cannot take your own Government (in this case LE) to court and argue in front of a judge? I thought there is a separation of power in Switzerland, no? Then why the heck did Protonmail chose Switzerland to host their mail if they are being so oppressive?
e12e 5y ago
> 6. Under current Swiss law, email and VPN are treated differently, and ProtonVPN cannot be compelled to log user data. So, they could offer the service only over Tor and their own vpn (possibly adding in mullvad/Firefox and a few others to the whitelist) - and the email logs would be less useful? Ie: build vpn into the email app?
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I don't think this clarification is sufficient for the weasel words in their advertising/marketing.
COGlory 5y ago
I don't understand why it is so hard for people on HN to understand that "no logs by default" is perfectly compatible with "if the government orders us to turn on logs, we must".
notjes 5y ago
A service must be paid for. And if a payment is done, it is connected to a real person. THE END No matter what PM promises, without addressing this issue it is all bull. Ladar Levison from Lavabit (Snowden email case) tries to square this circle to provide safe services.
- forix 5y ago
  > A service must be paid for. And if a payment is done, it is connected to a real person. THE END Unless payment is made in a way that preserves the user's privacy (i.e. using cryptocurrency).
  - randomswede 5y ago
    Note that "i.e." is short for "id est" (that is), rather than something that can be interpreted as "for example". And it is not necessarily the case that transacting in crypto currencies preserves your identity, it just takes one mistake, then your no-longer-anonymous transaction that was preserved in IMMUTABLE BLOCKCHAIN FOREVER is there for discovery. So, if I was actually concerned about my privacy and anonymity, I would not transact in (most, at least) cryptos, dealing only in much less traceable cash.
TwinProduction 5y ago
Any company large enough _will_ have to deal with compliance at some point, that's why most devs in large software companies have to take these silly "exams" every year telling you to not plug a USB key you found on the floor in your company laptop, even if it should be very obvious to most. I'm seeing a lot of people here that are surprised by the fact that even a company who has privacy as their main marketing point has to deal with compliance, but really, unless you host your own mail server, you just can't guarantee your own privacy. I don't generally advise hosting your own mail server due to all the troubles that come with it, but this is really one of the only ways I can think of where you can achieve a decent enough level of control when it comes to exchanging emails.
janmo 5y ago
Here is what is written in the police report, and it doesn't look good for Protonmail: https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434576598418796549/photo/3 https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434576598418796549/p... It's in french but here is a summary: Law enforcement contacted Protonmail directly and the company told them to use the "Europol channel", which law enforcement did. Protonmail then provided the date when the account was created, the IP address (Not clear if it is the one when it was created or last login) and the "device", I suppose they are talking about the user agents. Please keep in mind that companies can charge processing fees on law enforcement requests. I would really like to know if ProtonMail is earning money on this.
- randomswede 5y ago
  And said Europol channel probably ended up landing with a police department in Swítzerland. I think I would be happier with a "no, we cannot comply with your request" rather than the "no, we cannot comploy with your request, go to this other window..." but I wouldn't be surprised if the option they took is the legally safer route.
dang 5y ago
Recent and related: Climate activist arrested after ProtonMail provided his IP address - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 - Sept 2021 (552 comments) ProtonMail logged IP address of French activist after order by Swiss authorities - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28433131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28433131 - Sept 2021 (139 comments)
poetaster 5y ago
Maybe posteo as alternative? But, really, self~host. I know I'm a perv, but, since rspamd came along, I like doing my own mail. PS. Maintain qmail/courier and postfix systems available as hidden services. Have crypto lists with schleuder.
melbourne_mat 5y ago
I'm angry and ready to switch. Who's the best alternative?
lossolo 5y ago
If law enforcment can order to log IPs, could they tell Microsoft that there is an Windows user with specific e-mail address (which that user uses as windows login) and order them to deploy Microsoft signed update only to that user devices with embedded trojan written by some three letter agency ?
filmgirlcw 5y ago
My problem isn’t that ProtonMail followed the law, it’s that the company’s marketing has gone to extreme lengths to hide what exactly it will log (when compelled by the courts) and when it will fight. It’s also concerning, legal or not, that logging was required in this case, which is not about drugs or the murder or corruption. But climate activism. By very young people. If the Swiss police will demand that data for something so small, that’s a a concern about trusting their laws and authorities to be “better” than the alternative.
bjowen 5y ago
> 5. Under Swiss law, it is obligatory for a user to be notified if a third party makes a request for their private data and such data is to be used in a criminal proceeding. More information can be found here. This is subject to carve-outs of course, but it would be interesting to see how PM seeks to achieve this.
joering2 5y ago
Someone needs to build "CanaryEmail: Safe, Secure and Informed", where every time I login I can see an up to day message "We do not have any request from Law Enforcement regarding your data", "We do not have any request from Law Enforcement regarding your logs", etc. I would definitely love to switch to something like this. Edit: in addition, every time there is a new javascript library installed, user need to have confirmation if he/she wants to proceed. Otherwise it could be email provide on behalf of LE under their enforcement installing middle man.
o8r3oFTZPE 5y ago
Heres the issue with Proton's marketing that no one is mentioning. The CEO keeps making claims about "Swiss law" as if it is something to be desired. However he never adds any citations to the relevant laws or their interpretation. This seems strange because #1 How many Proton customers know anything about Swiss law (how many can even read German or French^1) and #2 The CEO is not a lawyer, he is a physicist. It seems prudent that Proton customers would want to have a look at those "Swiss laws" (a) to see what sort of protection they offer and (b) to make sure they dont violate one. In the case of (b) the customer will potentially lose all privacy protections, as emphasized in this announcement. 1 It appears that Swiss law is conveniently published in English however the English translation is not what Swiss courts use.

470 points by kdunglas 5y ago

This follows https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259

Disclaimer: I am a paying customer. Very classy post. To-the-point. There are limitations with digital services. If you don't like what happened, you need to change things. They only way to change things is to change the law. This begins with voting.

sshine 5y ago
...from prison, where you were put because your email provider's guarantees eroded over time.
- DanHulton 5y ago
  Did you read the article? Because their guarantees didn't "erode over time," this exact attack vector, and how to mitigate it, was disclosed in their public report over five years ago.
blueline 5y ago
What do I do when not a single candidate in any election that I can vote in has even heard of, much less taken my preferred position on, this issue?
- WJW 5y ago
  - Lobby with the existing candidates (and/or incumbents) to get them to take a stand on this issue. - Same point as before but indirectly: gather public support by leveraging the (social) media available to you. - If all else fails: run for office yourself.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > - If all else fails: run for office yourself. I advise all, especially Americans, to do this first.
  - GreenWatermelon 5y ago
    And, if all of this fails and your country appears to be corrupted, consider protesting. Revolting might become necessary depending on the condition.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  Run yourself
polote 5y ago
The only issue here, is that Proton said on their homepage that they don't log IP, but they in fact do it when asked by the police. Vote will not impact that. Anonymity doesn't exists for GAFA or Big governments on internet that's all, if you are not happy with that, you can vote as you want it will not change. But anonymity in society will soon stop existing as well. With all cameras that we have everywhere, we just need the Chinese facial recognition system and that will be the end. That's how it is.
- YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
  They have always said that. Years go.
viktorcode 5y ago
Or, you could change the country of your email provider.
ezluckyfree 5y ago
It's very rare to actually change things in a liberal democracy with voting. This is a central contradiction of the system, because there is very little incentive for existing governments to offer the ability to vote for policies which would change the status quo. Probably doubly so with something as subversive as what you are suggesting, states don't like it when non-states are able to keep secrets. Modern labor rights, environmental policy, and basic equality for marginalized groups (women, POC, LGBT people etc.) under the law, are frequently touted as victories of liberal democratic systems but almost all of these rights exist because of massive civil disobedience, and often violent protests. In all cases, you need huge support of the voter base for a particular issue before voting for a candidate to represent it is ever an option. Even then, there is simply no way to hold elected officials accountable to implementing their platform, and how could there be? No plurality of elected officials would ever want to pass that law in the first place.
- ploika 5y ago
  It might largely depend on whether you live somewhere with proportional representation or not. Full-on revolution at the ballot box is rare in liberal democracies, sure, but single-issue candidates get elected pretty commonly and often have outsized influence if they're needed for a coalition government.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Women's rights actually occurred in defiance of popular numbers by a vote. In the US, the same thing happened for integration of schools. You do, typically, need a majority of the voters to agree with you. In representative democracy that means you need a plurality of representatives. Candidates can and do lie. That is something you need to evaluate as part of voting for them.
  - ezluckyfree 5y ago
    In defiance of popular numbers, but as a result of decades of (mostly illegal) protests.
- eterevsky 5y ago

macinjosh 5y ago

As always, the root problem is abuse of citizens and the law perpetrated by the government. Using terror laws to go after a climate activist is peak authoritarian for western democracies so far. Our climate is failing and instead of listening to those speaking up they jail them.

noncompliant 5y ago
the capitalist class will do anything to protect its interests. if it means sacrificing democracy, so be it. its nothing really surprising
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Oh man, if you think the capitalists are bad wait until you hear about the fascists, the communists and the monarchs!
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    That's a pretty weak response, most likely someone being negative about capitalists are already upset about all the ones you mention. More transparency and more equality is what many are looking for are your response dies not cover that at all.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
It’s hard for me to even find info about what the group did but this sure doesn’t look like terror. https://www.flickr.com/photos/dprezat/50386413932 https://www.flickr.com/photos/dprezat/50386413932
sennight 5y ago
> Using terror laws to go after a climate activist is peak authoritarian for western democracies so far. It wasn't too long ago that Eco-terrorism was a thing that resulted in people's homes being burned down. I have a family member who got injured as a result of somebody digging holes in a fairly remote grass air strip. I'm sure somebody would describe the guy with a post hole digger as a heroic "climate activist". This situation doesn't appear to be that, but that might provide a little good faith context for why law enforcement would be interested in going after the likes of ELF.

indymike 5y ago

This is the exact kind of clarity that was needed for users to have confidence in their understanding of Protonmail. Andy Yen (Proton CEO) is a very thoughtful communicator and is making the world better. At some point everything on the internet becomes local, because people and businesses eventually must exist at a location in the real world. Proton is always going to be subject to local law enforcement wherever they are based.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

It seems like they could've simplified their explanations about only Swiss law applying by simply recommending Swiss users go elsewhere. It seems like the safest way to use email is to use email operated outside your own country.

breakfastduck 5y ago
I think you're misinterpreting. It doesn't matter where the user is from at all. They are obligated to disclose certain things if they get a request from the Swiss authorities, but it certainly does not only apply to people living in Switzerland. It simply means that if, lets say the US, govt makes a request, they are not obligated to comply unless they are specifically requested by the Swiss authorities.
nucleogenesis 5y ago
I think the French asked the Swiss to aid them in the investigation. Idk the whole story but I think it was to get some squatting climate activists (you know, super serious crimes…). The linked post by Proton suggests VPN and Tor usage for better anonymity.
lucozade 5y ago
I don't believe the person involved was Swiss. My understanding is that a request was made to the Swiss authorities by the French authorities. So, to avoid this, a user would need to not be accused of a crime in a country that is on speaking terms with Switzerland.
- kazen44 5y ago
  which is basically all of the EU and surrounding countries. this has been the case for a very long time. (more then 80 years in the benelux for example).

jijji 5y ago

if you think your email provider is immune to search warrants, thats your first mistake... how about dont use email to conduct your illegal business?

SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
Are we now calling climate activism "illegal business"?
- temp8964 5y ago
  Certain behaviors (such as occupy other people's property) do not suddenly become legal/ethical just because you have a climate activism agenda in your head.
  - jaggs 5y ago
    Most social change over the years has happened because of activist action which was considered 'illehal' at the time. Civil rights, workers rights, voting emancipation etc etc. Legal and ethical are not necessarily the same thing.
- Avamander 5y ago
  Keep in mind that illegal does not mean unethical, and vice versa. Parent comment is just stating what it was.
istingray 5y ago
Journalists, whistleblowers, and teachers in certain countries are performing "illegal business".
dafelst 5y ago
Don't conflate "illegal" with "wrong". Obviously there is a lot of overlap, but the reality is that civil disobedience is often the only way to force changes in unjust laws, history (even incredibly recently) has proven that time and time again.

rogers18445 5y ago

> Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders. This is false. Each time you visit protonmail you re-download (cache can be invalidated) their client. It would be trivial for them to serve a specific user a modified client which uploads their encryption keys. This problem is not specific to protonmail, any service which contends to be secure with respect to some server (the protocol relies on the client to decrypt stuff the server cannot) can be compromised this way because of implicit trust in the client software which can be modified at any time with no notice - making any auditing entirely meaningless in the case of targeted attacks. This problem should perhaps be addressed by browsers since it seems they are becoming pseudo operating systems.

TacticalCoder 5y ago
They say "cannot be compromised by legal orders" and they say they are bound by and only by swiss laws. Maybe what they mean is that the swiss authorities have no legal basis on which to force them to serve a modified, backdoored, client like the one you're talking about.
- FootballMuse 5y ago
  $5 wrench is pretty effective
  - gruez 5y ago
    $5 wrench does not fall under "legal orders"
    - FootballMuse 5y ago
      Yes, probably not. The point is that there are other ways to "force them to serve a modified, backdoored, client"
      - cto_of_antifa 5y ago

MitchellCash 5y ago

> Under Swiss law, it is obligatory for a user to be notified if a third party makes a request for their private data and such data is to be used in a criminal proceeding. They’re not explicit with regards to the activist, this would mean the activist was notified upon ProtonMail receiving the request? I’m not sure there’s much you can do but lawyer up if you receive such a notice, but potentially the activist could have immediately started using Tor (maybe too late though, because to read the notice they might have already leaked their IP).

kodah 5y ago

Does anyone have information on what the climate activist is accused of? This is the only thing I've found: > For the past year, a group of people have taken over a handful of commercial premises and apartments near Place Sainte Marthe in Paris. They want to fight against gentrification, real estate speculation, Airbnb and high-end restaurants. While it started as a local conflict, it quickly became a symbolic campaign. They attracted newspaper headlines when they started occupying premises rented by Le Petit Cambodge — a restaurant that was targeted by the November 13th, 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris.

snakeboy 5y ago
I found this page [0] (in French). I don't know how reliable this website (or my French, for that matter) is, but it seems like its a group of activists illegally squatting, damaging the property (at least changing the locks) and causing some public disturbances in the street, and the police were having a difficult time catching them. This email account was linked to the organization's Twitter account, and from there they were able to put together enough information to arrest. [0] https://paris-luttes.info/recit-policier-de-sainte-marthe-15258?lang=fr https://paris-luttes.info/recit-policier-de-sainte-marthe-15...
- woko 5y ago
  So that activist was the leader and social media coordinator of the group.
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  In short, a judge ordered the eviction, the BAC (French police's anticrime unit) proceeded and 50-60 people intervened and tried to stop them, at least two officers were injured, one had to take 15 days off.

tlogan 5y ago

I still do not understand what is point of ProtonMail: they are same as others. Google, MS or Apple will not sent your data to gov without court order. ProtonMail is the same. And I bet that these big corporations have better security. Please advise…

typon 5y ago
ProtonMail messages can be end-to-end encrypted and they aren't scanned for serving ads to you. ProtonMail might be the same with regards to metadata, but they offer an onion site to mitigate that risk to a certain extent.
nabakin 5y ago
I'm sure Google and MS have a lot more data to give in an information request than ProtonMail. According to what ProtonMail has posted, they only turned over an IP address. Google and MS would probably have your account name, contents of your emails, login session times, all recorded IP addresses you've logged in from, all recorded devices you've logged in from, etc. I'm not sure about Apple though.
- beermonster 5y ago
  Google literally log every thing you do[1] [1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-delete-google-search-history-tracking https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-delete-google-search-...
windthrown 5y ago
The "data" in this case was the user's IP address and time they logged in. Other providers might be able to be compelled to provide much more explicit data such as email content or the user's identity.
beermonster 5y ago
ProtonMail to ProtonMail emails are e2ee. Emails sent outside of ProtonMail ecosystem can still be secured with a password with a link to the email hosted at ProtonMail. ProtonMail uses zero-access encryption, which means it is technically impossible for them to decrypt user messages. When you sign up with Google you have to give them a phone number and other details which ProtonMail don’t require. In relation to GMail specifically see[1] [1] https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-vs-gmail-security/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-vs-gmail-security/

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

I'm not quite following: > ProtonMail does not give data to foreign governments; that’s illegal under Article 271 of the Swiss Criminal code. We only comply with legally binding orders from Swiss authorities. But the arrest was by the French police. So the Swiss government used a warrant to get info from PM and then passed it to France because the charges passed muster under Swiss law ("Swiss authorities will only approve requests which meet Swiss legal standards (the only law that matters is Swiss law)")?

kazen44 5y ago
the difference here being that protonmail gave the data to the swiss government. which in term passed it to the French for its police investigation. cross border criminal investigation and police cooperation is very common in Europe, and fully within swiss law.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Okay, that's what I was wondering; I wasn't giving an option, just trying to figure out how a Swiss investigation resulted French police arresting someone. So thanks:)
jacksonkmarley 5y ago
I think it was a request from a French police investigation to provide the data, which makes the Swiss government ordering PM to reveal user details seem very generous IMO. If I were Swiss I would probably want a bit more restriction on potentially arbitrary foreign government requests.

potatoeater515 5y ago

Throwaway. As the manager of various accounts used by environmental and social activists on Protonmail, this is really bad. I understand they have to follow Swiss law, but surely there are higher standard and processes than: police forward foreign request. Don't challenge or question, just do task required. Interpol requests are not as universally recognized as what some people here are alluding to. Countries can file these requests with interpol but it's up each country to determine if they act or recognize the request. If the Chinese government files 500 requests via interpol and the swiss police merely pass them on the proton, will proton mail automatically comply and install malware on their client on targeted accounts? I hope this is not the case but I expect this to be clarified. On th face of it, organizing an occupy protest hardly seems to pas the bar of "serious criminal cases"

tlogan 5y ago
Sadly, it is impossible hide your identity from gov and legal enforcement (from US to China) if you use any commercial service. As far as I know, FBI knows identity of all “ransomware” hackers. But they just cannot get them.
- shadowprofile76 5y ago
  Could you explain or substantiate this claim in a bit more detail? How is it absolutely impossible to find anonymity using any commercial service? and where did you hear that all the ransomware hackers are known?
windthrown 5y ago
Your concerns are valid but I think you are downplaying this by characterizing it as "swiss police merely pass them to proton". Protonmail recieved a legally binding order from the Swiss Federal Department of Justice. I'm not saying Swiss laws are infallible but this request was not simply "forwarded": "Swiss authorities will only approve requests which meet Swiss legal standards (the only law that matters is Swiss law)" As they mentioned in the blog post, they do challenge many of these requests but it was not legally possible in this case.

not1ofU 5y ago

Can the Swiss Government still claim neutrality after this?

Tomte 5y ago
You mean by executing a warrant they somehow entered into a military bloc? Must be strange membership rules.
- not1ofU 5y ago
  ha, was tounge in cheek, however, the post by PM CEO said the following on Twitter [0]: "In this particular case, the suspect unfortunately did break Swiss law, and there was simply no possibility to fight the decision made by the Swiss Federal Department of Justice." How does squating in France break swiss law? [0] - https://twitter.com/andyyen/status/1434665940696846340 https://twitter.com/andyyen/status/1434665940696846340
  - detaro 5y ago
    "would the same thing be against the law if it happened here" is a somewhat common benchmark in treaties and laws about respecting and acting on foreign law enforcement requests, presumably that's what's meant. (When it comes to extraditions it's often called the "dual criminality" requirement, and can involve quite a bit of transfer to make things comparable. E.g. since Assange is charged with conspiring with Manning to steal US military data, the UK extradition ruling was considering if it would have been a crime in the UK if he had conspired with a UK service member to steal UK data)

bluelu 5y ago

So in other words, protonmail is only safe if you use it for tax evasion, as there the swiss authorities won't help foreign governments.

tyingq 5y ago
It's not a huge leap from a tax evasion charge to something the Swiss would help with. Money laundering maybe.
tonfa 5y ago
They've been doing data sharing for a few years already, banking secrecy is only for swiss residents now.

istingray 5y ago

Disclaimer: Paying Protonmail customer This is a weak response. "What we're changing" isn't specific. It's a "our shit doesn't stink" kind of reply. "What we're changing" should be far more specific. Start educating users about Tor on your homepage. Start blogging about Tor more than once in 2017. Have a score for how many users log in through Tor. Have a score for how many times your privacy policy is loaded. Stop claiming to be the best simply because you have a Tor site with an old version of your app. That's not good enough. I'm looking for leadership. Protonmail is clearly an "explainer" more than a leader. I'll keep my eyes peeled for whoever comes along to replace them.

forix 5y ago
Seems like CTemplar (based in Iceland) supports Tor [0] and looks pretty good based on the comparison table they posted on their blog [1]. [0] https://ctemplar.com/how-ctemplar-over-tor-makes-your-email-more-anonymous-and-secure/ https://ctemplar.com/how-ctemplar-over-tor-makes-your-email-... [1] https://ctemplar.com/email-comparison-table/ https://ctemplar.com/email-comparison-table/

un_montagnard 5y ago

The crux of the matter is very simple: do not break Swiss law when using ProtonMail.

bifrost 5y ago
Or protonmail doesn't protect suspected terrorists?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  When the definition of "suspected" is "a foreign government claimed", no one is safe. (I know that's not a fair representation of the facts of this case, but neither is calling the suspect a "terrorist").

beermonster 5y ago

TL;DR They don’t log IP addresses. But they can be compelled to by Swiss law and they cannot NOT oblige as it’s trivial for them to do at various levels in their stack without even needing to modify their software. So they advise you to use their onion address if you need to anonymity. Don’t know why they can’t plonk a tcpip->tor->ProtonMail reverse proxy in front of their infra offering this facility to every connecting client, and transparently. After all, their services (including ProtonVPN) already support tor to some extent.

flotzam 5y ago

They claim to have exceptionally good Tor support, when in reality people have (rightly) been screaming at them for years now to fix their permabroken Tor signup flow. 1. It's impossible to create a paid account with cryptocurrency: You can only use it to pay for an existing account 2. It's impossible to anonymously create any account over Tor: You have to at least pass SMS / secondary email verification, and it better not be an easy to get address ("Email verification temporarily disabled for this email domain" etc.) Lots of marketing and boxticking (.onion: check), but it looks curiously hostile to anonymity if you actually try to use it.

zarzavat 5y ago
They are an email provider. Providing true anonymity leads to spam abuse. Spam abuse leads to blacklisting. And blacklisting leads to bankruptcy. Not sure what people expect.
- istingray 5y ago
  Figure out how to solve it. People need to be able to create accounts through Tor. Otherwise I'll just use Gmail it's free.
  - woko 5y ago
    > I'll just use Gmail it's free. So that is your alternative... Not sure what your threat model was.
    - istingray 5y ago
      My threat model is an un-educated population of people who don't value privacy or care about surveillance. I'll put up with shitty tools in the mean time but can only support those who are building a better future. I would switch to Gmail and donate my $50/year to EFF.
      - JadeNB 5y ago

djoldman 5y ago

I imagine protonmail users would like to know exactly what types of data are provided to authorities if they are compelled to provide it. Is it a list of access time, IP tuples? Is that it or more?

yololol 5y ago

> Due to Proton’s strict privacy, we do not know the identity of our users, and at no point were we aware that the targeted users were climate activists I don't understand what this is about. Would they had refused to comply, was that the case?

dngray 5y ago
that they didn't/can't read their email because it was encrypted

LightG 5y ago

Non-expert here. What are the best alternatives to ProtonMail?

aembleton 5y ago
I guess it depends what you mean by best? Best at sending emails - gmail.com is good at that. Something that claims great security - you could try https://mailfence.com/ https://mailfence.com/
- LightG 5y ago
  Thanks, and yes, I could have been more precise. I'll take a look at the latter.

smnrchrds 5y ago

I understand the points about having to comply with laws. But what is is unjustifiable is my view is that their marketing does not match the reality. They probably did some A/B testing and saw that keeping vague promises about not tracking users increases conversion rate. You, as an HN reader, being in the top 0.1% of the population in terms of tech-savviness, may be able to read through the nonsense and understand how little it means when they say "by default, we do not keep any IP logs". But the other 99.9% of the population won't understand it, and that's why their marketing strategy works: they are selling a level of privacy that does not exist to customers who do not know better without technically lying. Their threat model and all threat scenarios should be front and centre on their front page and sign up page. That is if they care about user privacy not just the bottom line. They have a choice between better-informed customers or more money, and so far, they have chosen the latter. What this and the new Apple debacle have proven to me is that privacy is not a product that can be purchased. If you want real privacy, you have spend a lot of time learning how to preserve your privacy. No matter what Apple and ProtonMail and similar companies tell you, you cannot buy privacy off-the-shelf.

istingray 5y ago
I wonder if the future of a company like Protonmail is that it has to be open source. Almost like simply an API, no privacy statement, no marketing, just a smart contract. More like UniSwap.
- ta988 5y ago
  How do you do emails on a blockchain? Is that another of those scenarios where "it will work when everybody will switch to the chain" ?
  - wallacoloo 5y ago
    The naive way would just be to send a transaction to the recipient’s wallet address (or more practically, their ENS name) where the transaction payload is an encrypted text message. As you point out, that requires both parties be on the blockchain. If you want to send/receive off-chain, you would probably just set up a trusted relay. e.g. send an ethereum tx to emailrelay.eth and it would forward it over the SMTP system. Send an email from a SMTP client to recipientaddr.eth@emailrelay.eth.link and it’ll do the reverse. This implementation would have the relay see all your plaintext messages. Not much different from how centralized email services like gmail operate, in practice. There’s nothing that makes any of this technically infeasible to a knowledgeable dev today — maybe it even already exists (ethmail.cc shows there’s at least interest in it). Transaction fees kill this from a practicality point of view. Probably you want to roll this out on a layer 2 network, and those are still pretty new things.

ur-whale 5y ago

> Due to Proton’s strict privacy, we do not know the identity of our users, and That is not something I'm ready to believe. I remember trying to sign for a protonmail account a while back. At some point in the process, they do ask for a valid cell phone number, which, unless you go to the length of getting a burner (not easy in many European countries except maybe the UK) basically means they know exactly who you are. When I saw this, I walked away. > under Swiss law, Proton can be forced to collect information on accounts belonging to users under Swiss criminal investigation. There's complying with the law like a good little sheep, and there's acceptable civil disobedience. In this specific instance, proton should have taken the latter approach. Take the fine, go to court, fight the injunction tooth and nail, make sure that even if they lose, the Swiss govt. knows the kind of fight and waste of time and money they're in for each time they come knocking. They just bent and complied like good little boys. Now their business model is compromised, serves them right.

deleted 5y ago

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avodonosov 5y ago

What does the word "activist" mean in this case? What form did the activism take, that a criminal case was opened?

cryptonym 5y ago
That's the small story in the bigger one. In the end, Proton is failing to deliver service that claimed to not record PII therefore failing protect their users. One could argue they only protect good users - as defined by Swiss law. Then what's the point of Proton? Next time, a whistleblower from a Swiss bank or agency?
- avodonosov 5y ago
  I understand that Proton failing the privacy expectations. But curious about the other part of the story. The word "activist" is abused very often. I can not find the details, what exactly they are trying to dress up as "activism" is this case. Also, "activist arrested" makes impression he was arrested for activism. But strictly speaking, the charge may be totally unrelated.

system2 5y ago

Ha ha. For years HN was almost fanatic about ProtonMail. It is funny to see how things change 180 in a day. Same thing happened to Apple with CSAM. Seriously I thought I was the uncool kid for not using ProtonMail and some other HN favorites. In the end, they are all someone's server with unknown connections. Do not trust other companies no matter what. Period.

sabellito 5y ago
You... are happy and find it funny that a service that was deemed trustworthy is not as much as previously thought?
- meowster 5y ago
  I think OP found the rate of change funny, not the underlying issue. > It is funny to see how things change 180 in a day.
- system2 5y ago
  Fanboyism what gets me.

steveharman 5y ago

From their website, regarding Onion: "...we are one of the only email providers that supports this). " What now?

rinron 5y ago

No company or organization can sustainably stop a determined government request that they continue to operate in financially or physically. It doesn't matter what the company says at some point they will be forced to either shutdown or give in eg lavabit(1). The government can trace and stop the flow of all or most of their money threating their primary motivation for the business. Or they can physically detain people or equipment required to function. the only way for an entity to never comply with government orders and continue to function is to remain anonymous and their servers accessible only via temporary addresses or tor since static ip's and domains can be taken away. Making it impossible for receiving email and more effort than the average person would want to access. It then becomes a catch 22 as you cant fully trust an anonymous, transient entity since their motivation can never be verified(they could be a honey trap), they can rarely be held accountable if they betray you, and they could be replaced or compelled to comply without anyone knowing(someone part of a visible physical social network could have friends put out a warning if something suspicious happened to them). What it comes down to is what we already know. they only way to be sure your email provider wont hand over your emails is to run your own email server anonymously. For anyone who cant do that protonmail is still likely the best choice even if its imperfect. plus adding whatever other layers of protection on top you are capable of. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

LWIRVoltage 5y ago

It appears they didn't start logging until ordered to. So, this might be in line with their policy of not having logs by default- but I have to wonder if this applies to phone numbers(which the crowd that signs up using VPN/TOR reports that they're required to provide). If they don't keep that info, then Protonmail would be solid as long as you access it via VPN well before a order tells them to start monitoring the IP. I'm also curious, I see here they do this for spammers - there is no way, a better system can't be created to 'verify' users against spammers ,since I see their logic here that spammers are why they do it https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/phnyd9/why_is_proton_so_heavily_recommended/hbt8mu8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/phnyd9/why_is_p... I'm aware that every other major email provider bans your account if you don't provide a phone umber shortly after account creation, such as Outlook for example. (Others require phone numbers up front, and all of them ban VOIP numbers) We're nearly at the point that you can't email anyone without providing your phone number or other details...I know social media is already like that. One thing i noticed, For things like Discord even, if you make an account, give them a non-major email address and they then force you to give a email, or else you can't sign in to that formal account. for now one can still use a permalink to get to a discord server without having to make an account...for now.. Protonmail is a standout if they don't log any of it, and still the best option left in the world, but this is still a icky situation. I see also they point out Swiss law means this cannot happen to the ProtonVPN service, as email providers are specifically legally in the situation they have to allow active monitoring. Not for Swiss VPN providers... And one needs a 'big' email provider address, or else it gets rejected by multiple services now that require a email address for sign up or usage. I hope they clarify that payment details /phone numbers of TOR/VPN users doesn't get logged, like IP addresses, by default. Also, more importantly- that they move forward in fully dissuading spammers, and remove the phone requirement of people signing up anonymously

moedersmooiste 5y ago

Maybe a bit off topic, but is Mixmaster/Mixminion still a viable option? I can still remember playing around with Mixmaster many years ago but mail delivery was not 100% reliable.

exabrial 5y ago

I'd like to know who the activist is and what the alleged crime is. The bar is set very high for Switzerland.

koreanguy 5y ago

to the idiots who are using protonmail, you silly hipsters deserve it.

joering2 5y ago

> We are also deeply concerned about this case and deplore that the legal tools for serious crimes are being used in this way. Good PR job! Instead of saying "okay we remove "by default" from our marketing materials because yeah if LE ask us to start logging, we gladly do whatever the case against someone is, i.e. jaywalking", they simply post a fake outrage in hope to minimize people leaving them. Well, I wasn't to, but now after this blog, I am moving away my 8 domains on platinum account. I mean seriously Google Suite is $6 per month, so why the heck should I need this fancy email hosting in the middle of Switzerland mountain BS, if at the end of the day they will comply with everything LE will throw at them, and then some. Seriously at this point it looks like Google legal arm is better at trying to fight subpoenas against you and force LE to show serious crimes, than Proton is.

joering2 5y ago

> Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders. This is false. Just like LE forced them to turn on IP logging on someones account, same LE can force them - by law - to install some javascript code to AJAX back home the unencrypted content of the email once the client opens their email. How stupid do they think people are?? > There was no legal possibility to resist or fight this particular request. WTF? So Switzerland is a fascist or authoritarian state now that you cannot take your own Government (in this case LE) to court and argue in front of a judge? I thought there is a separation of power in Switzerland, no? Then why the heck did Protonmail chose Switzerland to host their mail if they are being so oppressive?

e12e 5y ago

> 6. Under current Swiss law, email and VPN are treated differently, and ProtonVPN cannot be compelled to log user data. So, they could offer the service only over Tor and their own vpn (possibly adding in mullvad/Firefox and a few others to the whitelist) - and the email logs would be less useful? Ie: build vpn into the email app?

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

I don't think this clarification is sufficient for the weasel words in their advertising/marketing.

COGlory 5y ago

I don't understand why it is so hard for people on HN to understand that "no logs by default" is perfectly compatible with "if the government orders us to turn on logs, we must".

notjes 5y ago

A service must be paid for. And if a payment is done, it is connected to a real person. THE END No matter what PM promises, without addressing this issue it is all bull. Ladar Levison from Lavabit (Snowden email case) tries to square this circle to provide safe services.

forix 5y ago
> A service must be paid for. And if a payment is done, it is connected to a real person. THE END Unless payment is made in a way that preserves the user's privacy (i.e. using cryptocurrency).
- randomswede 5y ago
  Note that "i.e." is short for "id est" (that is), rather than something that can be interpreted as "for example". And it is not necessarily the case that transacting in crypto currencies preserves your identity, it just takes one mistake, then your no-longer-anonymous transaction that was preserved in IMMUTABLE BLOCKCHAIN FOREVER is there for discovery. So, if I was actually concerned about my privacy and anonymity, I would not transact in (most, at least) cryptos, dealing only in much less traceable cash.

TwinProduction 5y ago

Any company large enough _will_ have to deal with compliance at some point, that's why most devs in large software companies have to take these silly "exams" every year telling you to not plug a USB key you found on the floor in your company laptop, even if it should be very obvious to most. I'm seeing a lot of people here that are surprised by the fact that even a company who has privacy as their main marketing point has to deal with compliance, but really, unless you host your own mail server, you just can't guarantee your own privacy. I don't generally advise hosting your own mail server due to all the troubles that come with it, but this is really one of the only ways I can think of where you can achieve a decent enough level of control when it comes to exchanging emails.

janmo 5y ago

Here is what is written in the police report, and it doesn't look good for Protonmail: https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434576598418796549/photo/3 https://twitter.com/OnEstLaTech/status/1434576598418796549/p... It's in french but here is a summary: Law enforcement contacted Protonmail directly and the company told them to use the "Europol channel", which law enforcement did. Protonmail then provided the date when the account was created, the IP address (Not clear if it is the one when it was created or last login) and the "device", I suppose they are talking about the user agents. Please keep in mind that companies can charge processing fees on law enforcement requests. I would really like to know if ProtonMail is earning money on this.

randomswede 5y ago
And said Europol channel probably ended up landing with a police department in Swítzerland. I think I would be happier with a "no, we cannot comply with your request" rather than the "no, we cannot comploy with your request, go to this other window..." but I wouldn't be surprised if the option they took is the legally safer route.

dang 5y ago

Recent and related: Climate activist arrested after ProtonMail provided his IP address - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 - Sept 2021 (552 comments) ProtonMail logged IP address of French activist after order by Swiss authorities - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28433131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28433131 - Sept 2021 (139 comments)

poetaster 5y ago

Maybe posteo as alternative? But, really, self~host. I know I'm a perv, but, since rspamd came along, I like doing my own mail. PS. Maintain qmail/courier and postfix systems available as hidden services. Have crypto lists with schleuder.

melbourne_mat 5y ago

I'm angry and ready to switch. Who's the best alternative?

lossolo 5y ago

If law enforcment can order to log IPs, could they tell Microsoft that there is an Windows user with specific e-mail address (which that user uses as windows login) and order them to deploy Microsoft signed update only to that user devices with embedded trojan written by some three letter agency ?

filmgirlcw 5y ago

My problem isn’t that ProtonMail followed the law, it’s that the company’s marketing has gone to extreme lengths to hide what exactly it will log (when compelled by the courts) and when it will fight. It’s also concerning, legal or not, that logging was required in this case, which is not about drugs or the murder or corruption. But climate activism. By very young people. If the Swiss police will demand that data for something so small, that’s a a concern about trusting their laws and authorities to be “better” than the alternative.

bjowen 5y ago

> 5. Under Swiss law, it is obligatory for a user to be notified if a third party makes a request for their private data and such data is to be used in a criminal proceeding. More information can be found here. This is subject to carve-outs of course, but it would be interesting to see how PM seeks to achieve this.

joering2 5y ago

Someone needs to build "CanaryEmail: Safe, Secure and Informed", where every time I login I can see an up to day message "We do not have any request from Law Enforcement regarding your data", "We do not have any request from Law Enforcement regarding your logs", etc. I would definitely love to switch to something like this. Edit: in addition, every time there is a new javascript library installed, user need to have confirmation if he/she wants to proceed. Otherwise it could be email provide on behalf of LE under their enforcement installing middle man.

o8r3oFTZPE 5y ago

Heres the issue with Proton's marketing that no one is mentioning. The CEO keeps making claims about "Swiss law" as if it is something to be desired. However he never adds any citations to the relevant laws or their interpretation. This seems strange because #1 How many Proton customers know anything about Swiss law (how many can even read German or French^1) and #2 The CEO is not a lawyer, he is a physicist. It seems prudent that Proton customers would want to have a look at those "Swiss laws" (a) to see what sort of protection they offer and (b) to make sure they dont violate one. In the case of (b) the customer will potentially lose all privacy protections, as emphasized in this announcement. 1 It appears that Swiss law is conveniently published in English however the English translation is not what Swiss courts use.