4 ms·

The dirty open secret about development is that in highly developed countries with low inequality, human labor is just horrendously expensive, and since dining

The dirty open secret about development is that in highly developed countries with low inequality, human labor is just horrendously expensive, and since dining out has costs dominated by human labor, even relatively wealthy people dine out rarely. Ask the Swiss or Danes. Cooks can have a living wage, but fancy meals are comparatively much more expensive than their equivalents in the US, given their lack access to underpaid immigrants for that kind of work.

zozbot234 5y ago
Dining out is also a very localized industry, so this hits highly-productive areas within countries even more. Of course, the other side of the coin is that highly-productive areas are also constrained by real estate costs, regardless of prevailing wages. More rural areas don't have that factor, so people can afford to dine out more and still pay their cooks quite well.
Robotbeat 5y ago
That sounds like a good thing that human labor is properly valued.
angelzen 5y ago
Speaking of dirty secrets. There was a time not so long ago when there was not so much demand for dining out. Healthy food was generally prepared at home from fresh raw ingredients. Perhaps there was a small veggie garden in the back yard. There was plenty of time for shopping and cooking, and people didn't have to somehow squeeze these activities between the long commute back home from the second job and sleep time, while balancing an infant on their knees. Thankfully we progressed out of those dark times and we are empowered today to enjoy the bounty of rice, factory farmed meat, salt and sugar slapped together by strangers on minimum wage.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > Healthy food was generally prepared at home from fresh raw ingredients. Perhaps there was a small veggie garden in the back yard. Yup, that's called a subsistence economy. It's a very good thing that we can spend our time doing something better than back-breaking agricultural work and general housekeeping. That's what progress is all about.
  - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
    False dilemma. There is a state of being between subsistence farming and outsourced meals, and it's characterized by frugality and patience.
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      It's perfectly possible to have good meals on the go, as evidenced by the fact that Italians, Spaniards, French and Peruvians can get simple lunch fares with high-quality ingredients and affordable prices, and it's not necessarily about home-cooked meals either.
      - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
        So can I, but I have frugality and patience.
      - angelzen 5y ago
        > “To sum up, I may say that if the taste of our people [in France] for possessing land, and our habit of cultivation on a small scale, have singularly facilitated our progress towards equality, it is probable that the excess of opposing causes will drive the English in the same direction” Alexis de Tocqueville, 1861, cited in https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_02_01_choi.pdf https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_02_01_choi.pdf That the French (still) have access to good meals (not sure what you have in mind specifically) might have quite a bit to do with a history of small scale farming. That and a climate conducive to small scale farming. It remains to be seen how long this will last. The forces of globalization are rapidly eroding local culture everywhere around the world.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    This is the only possible future and the best possible future. Progress is intrinsically a very good thing. The disappearance of the home-cooked meals can't possibly be anything but a great liberation. We have better things to do than feed healthy food to our children. We have the results to show for it: > In the 1960s and 1970s only 13 percent of U.S. adults and 5 to 7 percent of U.S. children were obese. > The US obesity prevalence was 42.4% in 2017 – 2018. > For children and adolescents aged 2-19 years in 2017-20181 the prevalence of obesity was 19.3%. https://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/newsletter/2012/07/childhood-obesity https://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/newsletter/2012/07... https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html
- smsm42 5y ago
  Sure, it "was prepared" - but by whom? For example, by the wife - for whom it would be a full-time job, together with another full-time job of raising the kids and another one of cleaning the house and maintaining it. Or, in richer homes, by a servant - who would often work for little more than home and food, and certainly wouldn't have such benefits as mandatory vacation, sick leave, pension fund, unemployment insurance and workers comp. You can argue a lot about which model is preferable - and people certainly do all the time - but you have to take the model in its entirety here. You can't have people working full time jobs and then have plenty of time for shopping and cooking things from scratch. We'd have to choose one or the other. And we'd have to choose having a backyard vegetable garden, feeding one person, or industrial farming, feeding 7 billions people. If you're rich enough, you can still afford the former - along with a servant to cook your healthy meals - but the whole 7 billions still can't.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    I have a full time job and cook my own meals from raw ingredients. It doesn’t take a lot of work.

zozbot234 5y ago

Dining out is also a very localized industry, so this hits highly-productive areas within countries even more. Of course, the other side of the coin is that highly-productive areas are also constrained by real estate costs, regardless of prevailing wages. More rural areas don't have that factor, so people can afford to dine out more and still pay their cooks quite well.

Robotbeat 5y ago

That sounds like a good thing that human labor is properly valued.

angelzen 5y ago

Speaking of dirty secrets. There was a time not so long ago when there was not so much demand for dining out. Healthy food was generally prepared at home from fresh raw ingredients. Perhaps there was a small veggie garden in the back yard. There was plenty of time for shopping and cooking, and people didn't have to somehow squeeze these activities between the long commute back home from the second job and sleep time, while balancing an infant on their knees. Thankfully we progressed out of those dark times and we are empowered today to enjoy the bounty of rice, factory farmed meat, salt and sugar slapped together by strangers on minimum wage.

zozbot234 5y ago
> Healthy food was generally prepared at home from fresh raw ingredients. Perhaps there was a small veggie garden in the back yard. Yup, that's called a subsistence economy. It's a very good thing that we can spend our time doing something better than back-breaking agricultural work and general housekeeping. That's what progress is all about.
- readflaggedcomm 5y ago
  False dilemma. There is a state of being between subsistence farming and outsourced meals, and it's characterized by frugality and patience.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    It's perfectly possible to have good meals on the go, as evidenced by the fact that Italians, Spaniards, French and Peruvians can get simple lunch fares with high-quality ingredients and affordable prices, and it's not necessarily about home-cooked meals either.
    - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
      So can I, but I have frugality and patience.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      > “To sum up, I may say that if the taste of our people [in France] for possessing land, and our habit of cultivation on a small scale, have singularly facilitated our progress towards equality, it is probable that the excess of opposing causes will drive the English in the same direction” Alexis de Tocqueville, 1861, cited in https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_02_01_choi.pdf https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_02_01_choi.pdf That the French (still) have access to good meals (not sure what you have in mind specifically) might have quite a bit to do with a history of small scale farming. That and a climate conducive to small scale farming. It remains to be seen how long this will last. The forces of globalization are rapidly eroding local culture everywhere around the world.
- angelzen 5y ago
  This is the only possible future and the best possible future. Progress is intrinsically a very good thing. The disappearance of the home-cooked meals can't possibly be anything but a great liberation. We have better things to do than feed healthy food to our children. We have the results to show for it: > In the 1960s and 1970s only 13 percent of U.S. adults and 5 to 7 percent of U.S. children were obese. > The US obesity prevalence was 42.4% in 2017 – 2018. > For children and adolescents aged 2-19 years in 2017-20181 the prevalence of obesity was 19.3%. https://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/newsletter/2012/07/childhood-obesity https://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/newsletter/2012/07... https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html
smsm42 5y ago
Sure, it "was prepared" - but by whom? For example, by the wife - for whom it would be a full-time job, together with another full-time job of raising the kids and another one of cleaning the house and maintaining it. Or, in richer homes, by a servant - who would often work for little more than home and food, and certainly wouldn't have such benefits as mandatory vacation, sick leave, pension fund, unemployment insurance and workers comp. You can argue a lot about which model is preferable - and people certainly do all the time - but you have to take the model in its entirety here. You can't have people working full time jobs and then have plenty of time for shopping and cooking things from scratch. We'd have to choose one or the other. And we'd have to choose having a backyard vegetable garden, feeding one person, or industrial farming, feeding 7 billions people. If you're rich enough, you can still afford the former - along with a servant to cook your healthy meals - but the whole 7 billions still can't.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  I have a full time job and cook my own meals from raw ingredients. It doesn’t take a lot of work.