6 ms·

Calling ivermectin a “horse dewormer” is the lowest form of intellectual discourse - political meme warfare using pejorative labels. It says more about those wh

Calling ivermectin a “horse dewormer” is the lowest form of intellectual discourse - political meme warfare using pejorative labels. It says more about those who repeat the phrase blindly. Ivermectin is a Nobel prize winning drug that has had incredibly surprising applications. I haven’t looked into it much, but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone determined it had some application with COVID. Even if it isn’t very effective, it might provide an imperfect benefit with limited downside, which is all we get from the various vaccines out there anyways. But really what is wrong with people speculating about drugs, discussing them, and making choices on their own about their health and what risks they are comfortable with? Ultimately the ivermectin controversy is less about ivermectin itself and more about other problems in modern western society that have been laid bare by the pandemic. It’s about uncivil discourse (“horse dewormer”). Its about bad reporting and a failing journalism industry that veered too far into manufacturing narratives. It’s about blindly trusting authorities. It’s about whether speculation and free thought is allowed. It’s about collectivism versus individualism. It’s about groupthink and tribalism. It’s about censorship, for example YouTube censoring videos of the Nobel prize winner discussing ivermectin (https://reclaimthenet.org/youtube-censors-dr-satoshi-omura-ivermectin/ https://reclaimthenet.org/youtube-censors-dr-satoshi-omura-i...). We have seen other similar situations throughout the pandemic, like with early speculation about COVID’s existence, whether it could transmit between humans (WHO said it can’t in late Jan 2020!), about masks, about the lab leak theory, and now this. PS: many left-leaning pharmacists are openly discussing on social media how they can arbitrarily deny doctors’ prescriptions for ivermectin and other drugs that have become politically charged (example: https://www.reddit.com/r/pharmacy/comments/p8zq68/what_are_you_guys_doing_about_ivermectin/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pharmacy/comments/p8zq68/what_are_y...). That may be why some patients are seeking out veterinary doses, which may then be leading to ODs.

malcolmgreaves 5y ago
Stop spreading misinformation that can kill people. You're not a physician. You don't know what you are talking about.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  Don't you see how this kind of response proves the point? I have no doubt that ivermectin doesn't work against Covid, but you don't seem to have engaged with the content of the comment at all; you just saw the word "ivermectin" mentioned in a less-than-negative light and reflexively popped off with some standard political meme phrases. This isn't healthy.
  - nradov 5y ago
    If you have no doubt that ivermectin doesn't work against COVID-19 then perhaps you should tell the NIH to cancel the large clinical trial they're running. https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initiatives/activ/covid-19-therapeutics-prioritized-testing-clinical-trials https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initi...
    - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
      How am I supposed to respond to this kind of weird snarky comment? Like the prior commenter, I think you've been bitten by brain worms here.
  - malcolmgreaves 5y ago
    The only point it proves is that, during a public health crisis, you should let the professionals do their jobs and keep your hot takes to yourself.
joshmaker 5y ago
Oh please. We have multiple vaccines that have all been demonstrated to be safe and highly effective at preventing hospitalization and death from COVID in multiple studies. Ivermectin has had decidedly mixed results in very limited early trials, and may not be effective at treating COVID at all. The only reason people are taking ivermectin when safe, effective, and FREE vaccines are available is because of politics.
- walterbell 5y ago
  > We have multiple vaccines that have all been demonstrated to be safe and highly effective at preventing hospitalization and death from COVID in multiple studies. Since these are non-sterilizing vaccines without nasal/mucosal immunity, i.e. they do not prevent infection or transmission, there is still benefit in early treatment for vaccinated people who become infected. There are multiple therapeutic options available, including monoclonal antibodies being distributed by some states.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    Some studies have shown that the vaccine reduces transmission by as much as 80%. That was with the earlier variant, so it may not hold. So it is not sterilizing, but it seems to go a long way towards that.
    - artificialLimbs 5y ago
      Israel would like a word with you.
      - walterbell 5y ago
        Could you be more specific?
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  I am vaccinated and am not planning to get ivermectin. Your aggressive response seems to assume I have a stake in this. My only stake is that one side seems to think only their favored authorities are allowed to exercise free will, ultimately. These are the same authorities that have been MASSIVELY wrong throughout the pandemic on multiple fronts. I favor decentralization and competing ideas/choices as a way to run a free and just society. From my perspective, the only reason people are against ivermectin is because any deviation from a one size fits all approach undermines the broad lurch towards collectivist control that has been taking place, particularly in American politics. You could say that it is political for both sides of this issue, and I would say that’s fair. But only one solution let’s people live freely, which is individuals making their own choices and voluntarily interacting with others to support those choices.
armchairhacker 5y ago
I accept people who were supporting Ivermectin when it first came out, we didn’t know much about its effects on covid, and it seemed to help some people. It’s not particularly bad for you, so if you’re hospitalized it was a reasonable last resort. But multiple studies have now come out showing ivermectin really isn’t effective against covid, so it doesn’t make sense to support any more. Also IIRC the “horse dewormer” claims are about people actually taking livestock dewormer, because it contains ivermectin and they can’t get medical ivermectin prescribed. And then people are being hospitalized because livestock dewormer contains other chemicals which aren’t safe for humans.
- evv555 5y ago
  There was a story about people using horse grade ivermectin and overdosing. However the "horse dewormer" label is being used to talk about medically prescribed Ivermectin as well like in the case of Joe Rogan or the woman suing the hospital to have Ivermectin administered to her comatose husband. If a doctor wants to prescribe Ivermectin alongside with Regeneron then there's nothing to make a big deal about from a medical perspective.
jjeaff 5y ago
Some are calling it horse dewormer in bad faith. But a lot of cases of people ODing is actually from the horse dewormer version. Also, ivermectin was originally only for animals, until it was found to work and be safe in humans. Additionally, it is not commonly prescribed in the US. It is only FDA approved for particular types of intestinal worms and externally for severe lice and scabies. So while calling it horse dewormer is not fair, assuming we are talking about the human Rx version, it's also not that far off. Calling it just a "dewormer" would be more accurate.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Something can be both technically accurate and a pejorative. That is how most slurs come to exist, for example. More abstractly, it is a an insult based on an implicit teleological argument, and those are typically (always?) fallacious
- lenkite 5y ago
  > Additionally, it is not commonly prescribed in the US Is is prescribed for immigrant refugees: https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overse... "All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with: ... Ivermectin, two doses 200 mcg/Kg orally once a day for 2 days before departure to the United States."
somewhereoutth 5y ago
The reason why the horse dewormer, and indeed the malaria prophylactic before it, are so popular (in certain sections of society) is that they can be taken after infection. Thus they require no forethought or preplanning for the possibility of catching Covid, instead they can be used to instantly gratify the consumer - a consumer who has been trained to solve all problems with some stuff bought with a credit card. That is the problem we have with our society.
- sterlind 5y ago
  so what, it's a moral failing that people try to treat the infection they caught by not thinking ahead and masking/getting vaxxed? I strongly disagree. anything that helps, before or after, should be tried and studied, and available to whoever needs it, regardless of whether they did it to themselves. also, ivermectin is being used as prophylaxis for covid infection.
Fjolsvith 5y ago
Using Ivermectin isn't any worse than getting an injection of a drug that never made it out of animal trials. At least you can read the ingredients on the package label.

malcolmgreaves 5y ago

Stop spreading misinformation that can kill people. You're not a physician. You don't know what you are talking about.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
Don't you see how this kind of response proves the point? I have no doubt that ivermectin doesn't work against Covid, but you don't seem to have engaged with the content of the comment at all; you just saw the word "ivermectin" mentioned in a less-than-negative light and reflexively popped off with some standard political meme phrases. This isn't healthy.
- nradov 5y ago
  If you have no doubt that ivermectin doesn't work against COVID-19 then perhaps you should tell the NIH to cancel the large clinical trial they're running. https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initiatives/activ/covid-19-therapeutics-prioritized-testing-clinical-trials https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initi...
  - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
    How am I supposed to respond to this kind of weird snarky comment? Like the prior commenter, I think you've been bitten by brain worms here.
- malcolmgreaves 5y ago
  The only point it proves is that, during a public health crisis, you should let the professionals do their jobs and keep your hot takes to yourself.

joshmaker 5y ago

Oh please. We have multiple vaccines that have all been demonstrated to be safe and highly effective at preventing hospitalization and death from COVID in multiple studies. Ivermectin has had decidedly mixed results in very limited early trials, and may not be effective at treating COVID at all. The only reason people are taking ivermectin when safe, effective, and FREE vaccines are available is because of politics.

walterbell 5y ago
> We have multiple vaccines that have all been demonstrated to be safe and highly effective at preventing hospitalization and death from COVID in multiple studies. Since these are non-sterilizing vaccines without nasal/mucosal immunity, i.e. they do not prevent infection or transmission, there is still benefit in early treatment for vaccinated people who become infected. There are multiple therapeutic options available, including monoclonal antibodies being distributed by some states.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Some studies have shown that the vaccine reduces transmission by as much as 80%. That was with the earlier variant, so it may not hold. So it is not sterilizing, but it seems to go a long way towards that.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    Israel would like a word with you.
    - walterbell 5y ago
      Could you be more specific?
throwawaysea 5y ago
I am vaccinated and am not planning to get ivermectin. Your aggressive response seems to assume I have a stake in this. My only stake is that one side seems to think only their favored authorities are allowed to exercise free will, ultimately. These are the same authorities that have been MASSIVELY wrong throughout the pandemic on multiple fronts. I favor decentralization and competing ideas/choices as a way to run a free and just society. From my perspective, the only reason people are against ivermectin is because any deviation from a one size fits all approach undermines the broad lurch towards collectivist control that has been taking place, particularly in American politics. You could say that it is political for both sides of this issue, and I would say that’s fair. But only one solution let’s people live freely, which is individuals making their own choices and voluntarily interacting with others to support those choices.

armchairhacker 5y ago

I accept people who were supporting Ivermectin when it first came out, we didn’t know much about its effects on covid, and it seemed to help some people. It’s not particularly bad for you, so if you’re hospitalized it was a reasonable last resort. But multiple studies have now come out showing ivermectin really isn’t effective against covid, so it doesn’t make sense to support any more. Also IIRC the “horse dewormer” claims are about people actually taking livestock dewormer, because it contains ivermectin and they can’t get medical ivermectin prescribed. And then people are being hospitalized because livestock dewormer contains other chemicals which aren’t safe for humans.

evv555 5y ago
There was a story about people using horse grade ivermectin and overdosing. However the "horse dewormer" label is being used to talk about medically prescribed Ivermectin as well like in the case of Joe Rogan or the woman suing the hospital to have Ivermectin administered to her comatose husband. If a doctor wants to prescribe Ivermectin alongside with Regeneron then there's nothing to make a big deal about from a medical perspective.

jjeaff 5y ago

Some are calling it horse dewormer in bad faith. But a lot of cases of people ODing is actually from the horse dewormer version. Also, ivermectin was originally only for animals, until it was found to work and be safe in humans. Additionally, it is not commonly prescribed in the US. It is only FDA approved for particular types of intestinal worms and externally for severe lice and scabies. So while calling it horse dewormer is not fair, assuming we are talking about the human Rx version, it's also not that far off. Calling it just a "dewormer" would be more accurate.

errantmind 5y ago
Something can be both technically accurate and a pejorative. That is how most slurs come to exist, for example. More abstractly, it is a an insult based on an implicit teleological argument, and those are typically (always?) fallacious
lenkite 5y ago
> Additionally, it is not commonly prescribed in the US Is is prescribed for immigrant refugees: https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overse... "All Middle Eastern, Asian, North African, Latin American, and Caribbean refugees should receive presumptive therapy with: ... Ivermectin, two doses 200 mcg/Kg orally once a day for 2 days before departure to the United States."

somewhereoutth 5y ago

The reason why the horse dewormer, and indeed the malaria prophylactic before it, are so popular (in certain sections of society) is that they can be taken after infection. Thus they require no forethought or preplanning for the possibility of catching Covid, instead they can be used to instantly gratify the consumer - a consumer who has been trained to solve all problems with some stuff bought with a credit card. That is the problem we have with our society.

sterlind 5y ago
so what, it's a moral failing that people try to treat the infection they caught by not thinking ahead and masking/getting vaxxed? I strongly disagree. anything that helps, before or after, should be tried and studied, and available to whoever needs it, regardless of whether they did it to themselves. also, ivermectin is being used as prophylaxis for covid infection.

Fjolsvith 5y ago

Using Ivermectin isn't any worse than getting an injection of a drug that never made it out of animal trials. At least you can read the ingredients on the package label.