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PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. This is part of

by api 5y ago

PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. This is part of why people feel almost stuck with Apple. Their hardware is a lot better than most of the competition, though it comes with a price premium, and while there are privacy concerns they are less than with these shitware-loaded machines. You can also install Linux on them if you really want no telemetry at all, even with M1 Macs.

gruez 5y ago
> PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. That really only applies to the consumer line. The thinkpad line is still pretty solid.
- mhb 5y ago
  > The thinkpad line is still pretty solid. Meh. The trackpoint and keypad on my X1 are far inferior to previous Thinkpads, like the X220, before they decided their overarching mission was to make things as thin as possible. The trackpoint is sometimes unusable and is a chore to use at all times whereas the older ones were fun.
  - NathanielK 5y ago
    FWIW, Intel has been forcing manufacturers hand when it comes to thickness. Since their high performance laptop processors have stagnated on the last decade, they've created programs to encourage thin laptops. Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. I won't give Lenovo a free pass, but it's part of why keytravel and cooling solutions are pretty awful in modern small laptops.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. How do those programs work? Do you need to meet a certain thickness to get called an ultrabook? Why can't manufacturers just opt out and make a notebook without "ultrabook" slapped on it?
      - dvdkon 5y ago
        Trademarks. Also, manufacturers might get money from parts makers (the big three mostly) for marketing using their trademarks, which means they need to meet the parts maker's conditions to get "free money".
  - fomine3 5y ago
    You should choose X2xx or T4xx line over X1. X1 is designed to be.
    - mhb 5y ago
      Can you give me a pointer to an X2xx that has a comparable keyboard and trackpoint to the old ones?
      - fomine3 5y ago
        Nope. But X2xx/T4xx features still decent keyboard and TrackPoint compared to others including X1. Also you may know ThinkPad 25, that based on T470.
        mhb 5y ago
        Well yeah. I have an X220 and the keyboard and stick are great. I just wish there was an upgrade path to have those along with the nice display and audio of the X1.
- poetaster 5y ago
  This is why I started a minor cult. The cult of the X220. News at 11. (central)
10000truths 5y ago
There are plenty of 1000$+ laptops you can purchase these days with good specs that compete with Apple’s lineup of MacBooks.
- elric 5y ago
  Are there? There's Thinkpads, and pretty much nothing else. Everything else either has awful specs, awful hardware, or awful support. And don't even get me started on awful keyboards, those are now almost universal.
  - kcb 5y ago
    Dell XPS and Surface
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      I'm always surprised that the XPS gets so much love. Everything about it felt sub-par to me. I was pretty happy with my surface, while it lasted anyway. Ended up with a defective touch screen that couldn't be replaced, so I just got a full refund (thank you extended warranty).
      - Varriount 5y ago
        For me, the big thing I've liked about the XPS is that it has a good balance of powerful hardware, weight, battery life, and looks. I especially enjoy the fact that it has a dedicated graphics card, since usually only gaming laptops have those. The only laptops with comparable specs (gaming laptops) are either too heavy, have poor battery life, or are just plain ugly. That being said, the touchpad on it is just barely "ok"-level and the webcam (on my older model) is just awful. The friction on the touchpad is so high my wrist becomes sore, and the webcam is located on the bottom of the screen (with a microphone on the bottom front edge near the trackpad!). Even though these flaws have required me to switch to a wireless mouse and external webcam, I'm still pretty satisfied. For my next laptop, I'll likely either buy the newest XPS model (the newer ones have webcams at a usable position), or try the Razor again (the one I previously tried had quite a small battery life). (I would love to know the series of events that led a high-end laptop to have a webcam placed at a position that is only optimal for looking up one's nose.)
lrem 5y ago
> PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. My Surface Pro was a hair below $2000. I was also considering a Lenovo X1 Yoga that was well above $2000. You sure that's competition on price?
- jessriedel 5y ago
  I guess one could claim "companies that compete on price in some large section of the market form internal dysfunctions that cannot be reliably walled off from the parts of the companies that produce high-end products". Indeed, there's always a suspicion, perhaps reasonable, when mass-market companies produce luxury products, e.g., McDonald's McCafe or Ford sports cars. Some such companies often try to avoid this, with limited success, using separate branding.
  - lrem 5y ago
    That's a good argument. On the other hand, that's a bit counter my experience. Working in a large company, I feel like walls keep emerging spontaneously and piercing through them is the bit that requires work. Often people inside the company cannot tell apart two teams working on related things, but the teams just won't talk to each other. Much less allow any kind of convergence to happen.
    - dTal 5y ago
      The "convergence" may happen at a level of the management structure that isn't visible to the rank-and-file worker, but rather several "layers of abstraction" up in the realm of budgetary and policy decisions. For example, a "budget laptop" company that doesn't place a high priority on high quality UEFI firmware isn't going to suddenly spin up a top-tier embedded team just because they decided to make a "premium" product - it might not even occur to them as something they need to spend more effort on.

by api 5y ago

gruez 5y ago

> PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. That really only applies to the consumer line. The thinkpad line is still pretty solid.

mhb 5y ago
> The thinkpad line is still pretty solid. Meh. The trackpoint and keypad on my X1 are far inferior to previous Thinkpads, like the X220, before they decided their overarching mission was to make things as thin as possible. The trackpoint is sometimes unusable and is a chore to use at all times whereas the older ones were fun.
- NathanielK 5y ago
  FWIW, Intel has been forcing manufacturers hand when it comes to thickness. Since their high performance laptop processors have stagnated on the last decade, they've created programs to encourage thin laptops. Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. I won't give Lenovo a free pass, but it's part of why keytravel and cooling solutions are pretty awful in modern small laptops.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. How do those programs work? Do you need to meet a certain thickness to get called an ultrabook? Why can't manufacturers just opt out and make a notebook without "ultrabook" slapped on it?
    - dvdkon 5y ago
      Trademarks. Also, manufacturers might get money from parts makers (the big three mostly) for marketing using their trademarks, which means they need to meet the parts maker's conditions to get "free money".
- fomine3 5y ago
  You should choose X2xx or T4xx line over X1. X1 is designed to be.
  - mhb 5y ago
    Can you give me a pointer to an X2xx that has a comparable keyboard and trackpoint to the old ones?
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Nope. But X2xx/T4xx features still decent keyboard and TrackPoint compared to others including X1. Also you may know ThinkPad 25, that based on T470.
      - mhb 5y ago
        Well yeah. I have an X220 and the keyboard and stick are great. I just wish there was an upgrade path to have those along with the nice display and audio of the X1.
poetaster 5y ago
This is why I started a minor cult. The cult of the X220. News at 11. (central)

10000truths 5y ago

There are plenty of 1000$+ laptops you can purchase these days with good specs that compete with Apple’s lineup of MacBooks.

elric 5y ago
Are there? There's Thinkpads, and pretty much nothing else. Everything else either has awful specs, awful hardware, or awful support. And don't even get me started on awful keyboards, those are now almost universal.
- kcb 5y ago
  Dell XPS and Surface
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    I'm always surprised that the XPS gets so much love. Everything about it felt sub-par to me. I was pretty happy with my surface, while it lasted anyway. Ended up with a defective touch screen that couldn't be replaced, so I just got a full refund (thank you extended warranty).
    - Varriount 5y ago
      For me, the big thing I've liked about the XPS is that it has a good balance of powerful hardware, weight, battery life, and looks. I especially enjoy the fact that it has a dedicated graphics card, since usually only gaming laptops have those. The only laptops with comparable specs (gaming laptops) are either too heavy, have poor battery life, or are just plain ugly. That being said, the touchpad on it is just barely "ok"-level and the webcam (on my older model) is just awful. The friction on the touchpad is so high my wrist becomes sore, and the webcam is located on the bottom of the screen (with a microphone on the bottom front edge near the trackpad!). Even though these flaws have required me to switch to a wireless mouse and external webcam, I'm still pretty satisfied. For my next laptop, I'll likely either buy the newest XPS model (the newer ones have webcams at a usable position), or try the Razor again (the one I previously tried had quite a small battery life). (I would love to know the series of events that led a high-end laptop to have a webcam placed at a position that is only optimal for looking up one's nose.)

lrem 5y ago

> PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. My Surface Pro was a hair below $2000. I was also considering a Lenovo X1 Yoga that was well above $2000. You sure that's competition on price?

jessriedel 5y ago
I guess one could claim "companies that compete on price in some large section of the market form internal dysfunctions that cannot be reliably walled off from the parts of the companies that produce high-end products". Indeed, there's always a suspicion, perhaps reasonable, when mass-market companies produce luxury products, e.g., McDonald's McCafe or Ford sports cars. Some such companies often try to avoid this, with limited success, using separate branding.
- lrem 5y ago
  That's a good argument. On the other hand, that's a bit counter my experience. Working in a large company, I feel like walls keep emerging spontaneously and piercing through them is the bit that requires work. Often people inside the company cannot tell apart two teams working on related things, but the teams just won't talk to each other. Much less allow any kind of convergence to happen.
  - dTal 5y ago
    The "convergence" may happen at a level of the management structure that isn't visible to the rank-and-file worker, but rather several "layers of abstraction" up in the realm of budgetary and policy decisions. For example, a "budget laptop" company that doesn't place a high priority on high quality UEFI firmware isn't going to suddenly spin up a top-tier embedded team just because they decided to make a "premium" product - it might not even occur to them as something they need to spend more effort on.