6 ms·

It's like Linux on the desktop and fusion reactors. It seems like we are always one jab away from being safe and overcoming covid.

pwned1 5y ago
At this point we need to acknowledge that there will be no "overcoming" it and it will be endemic, like the flu.
- bsksi 5y ago
  Oh, we have acknowledged it. The question is, have our politicians acknowledged it, or will they keep taking our rights?
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    Stop downvoting this, it's a legitimate question. When are we going to stop all the policy bullshit, accept that it is endemic, and get back to normalcy as much as we can? It's wearing on everybody.
  - kimbernator 5y ago
    The acknowledgement of it being endemic doesn't necessitate that we put up with covid's destructive nature. It's still the case that: 1. A large number of people globally don't have access to the vaccine yet. 2. A large proportion of the USA's population either doesn't feel motivated to get the vaccine or is explicitly opposed to it. There will come a day where we collectively say that enough is enough and we've done all we can, but there is still a lot of work to do before we get to that point. Managing the spread and improving vaccination numbers will overall reduce the damage done to people and the health system when we reach that point.
  - titzer 5y ago
    Try going out in public naked or running a few red lights and then come back and troll some more about your "rights". The world is full of rules to prevent you from being a jerk and endangering others.
    - bsaul 5y ago
      rules preventing you from doing something is one thing, but injecting a new product some people still have doubts about (no matter if they're correct or not) is a very different matter. I'm amazed that people still come with the "safety belt" argument. We've had decades of increase protections about food additives, GMOs, hormones in animals, etc on the principle of precaution with everything related to health, because things in this matter are complex. And now for some reason, we should stop thinking about tradeoffs and unknown unknowns over long terms consequences eventhough we're talking about treating the whole world population.
      - titzer 5y ago
        You gotta be joking, right? You realize the same people who are mouthing off about freedom believe in absolutely zero protections for consumers against food additives and are in a constant state of denial about environmental pollution that has drastically harmed human health and ecosystems right? They very same politicians hemming about freedoms and how vaccines are dangerous just give carte blanche to the marketplace to push whatever preservatives and addiction-inducing flavor molecules into foods are the most successful at jacking up the GDP. All the protections that you mentioned have been over the objections of the exact politicians that you no doubt support because they believe in "freedoms". Or whatever. You gotta get the MMR vaccine to go to a public school. You gotta get Tetanus and other vaccines to go to college.
        babesh 5y ago
        Totally not true about tetanus and other vaccines to go to college. EDIT: Meningitis is the exception.
        titzer 5y ago
        This is where I went to undergrad: https://www.purdue.edu/push/Immunization/ https://www.purdue.edu/push/Immunization/
        5y ago
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
It seems like longer, but COVID has only been a thing for around 21 months. To be this far in vaccination at this point is huge progress. Achieving desktop Linux and nuclear fusion have been ongoing projects for far longer.
nradov 5y ago
There is no such thing as safety, only varying degrees of risk. Everyone has a different risk tolerance. Failure to explicitly quantify acceptable risks leads to people making invalid assumptions and talking past each other.
- refurb 5y ago
  This is very true - I remember a colleague getting slapped down by the FDA when he said his company's FDA-approved drug was "safe". "There is no 'safe' drug", he was told, "only acceptable risk-benefit tradeoffs". In addition, what is acceptable on a national level (e.g. 50 deaths from vaccination side effects) may not be acceptable on a individual basis (e.g. you die from a vaccine side effect). Just like people dismiss the risk of Covid until it kills a family member, the flip side is people dismiss the risk of vaccination until it kills a family member.
mikepurvis 5y ago
In fairness, I think it's been just as frustrating to the health officials setting out those targets— between non-compliance with the initial guidelines (both due to idiocy, and due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home), and then the appearance of the delta variant just as vaccination campaigns were getting seriously under way, I'm sure it has very much felt like fighting a battle against moving goalposts.
- JackFr 5y ago
  > due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home Government supports or not, you do realize everyone can't stay home?
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    Why do so many discussions around this have to devolve to reasoning against absolute straw-men arguments? The point wasn't for "everybody" to stay at home but to expand "everybody who can" to the highest possible number, by removing economic and other barriers.
    - linuxftw 5y ago
      Why do people act like a completely unreasonable plan (and plan is generous) created by the morons in charge was ever going to be followed, let alone work? Garbage in, garbage out.
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you suppose the decisions makers could have done in the moment that would have persuaded you and other contrarians that they had a plan worth following, or at least worth trying?
        5y ago
refurb 5y ago
If you think that's fun, imagine the steady state being like flu - monitoring Covid variants, then trying to predict which ones will be the next "wave". Some years you'll get it right and put a big damper on spread and some years you'll pick the wrong variant leaving most people unprotected. That's one reason why flu deaths in the US fluctuate annually (in addition to the severity of the flu). A few years back the vaccine basically did nothing.

pwned1 5y ago

At this point we need to acknowledge that there will be no "overcoming" it and it will be endemic, like the flu.

bsksi 5y ago
Oh, we have acknowledged it. The question is, have our politicians acknowledged it, or will they keep taking our rights?
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  Stop downvoting this, it's a legitimate question. When are we going to stop all the policy bullshit, accept that it is endemic, and get back to normalcy as much as we can? It's wearing on everybody.
- kimbernator 5y ago
  The acknowledgement of it being endemic doesn't necessitate that we put up with covid's destructive nature. It's still the case that: 1. A large number of people globally don't have access to the vaccine yet. 2. A large proportion of the USA's population either doesn't feel motivated to get the vaccine or is explicitly opposed to it. There will come a day where we collectively say that enough is enough and we've done all we can, but there is still a lot of work to do before we get to that point. Managing the spread and improving vaccination numbers will overall reduce the damage done to people and the health system when we reach that point.
- titzer 5y ago
  Try going out in public naked or running a few red lights and then come back and troll some more about your "rights". The world is full of rules to prevent you from being a jerk and endangering others.
  - bsaul 5y ago
    rules preventing you from doing something is one thing, but injecting a new product some people still have doubts about (no matter if they're correct or not) is a very different matter. I'm amazed that people still come with the "safety belt" argument. We've had decades of increase protections about food additives, GMOs, hormones in animals, etc on the principle of precaution with everything related to health, because things in this matter are complex. And now for some reason, we should stop thinking about tradeoffs and unknown unknowns over long terms consequences eventhough we're talking about treating the whole world population.
    - titzer 5y ago
      You gotta be joking, right? You realize the same people who are mouthing off about freedom believe in absolutely zero protections for consumers against food additives and are in a constant state of denial about environmental pollution that has drastically harmed human health and ecosystems right? They very same politicians hemming about freedoms and how vaccines are dangerous just give carte blanche to the marketplace to push whatever preservatives and addiction-inducing flavor molecules into foods are the most successful at jacking up the GDP. All the protections that you mentioned have been over the objections of the exact politicians that you no doubt support because they believe in "freedoms". Or whatever. You gotta get the MMR vaccine to go to a public school. You gotta get Tetanus and other vaccines to go to college.
      - babesh 5y ago
        Totally not true about tetanus and other vaccines to go to college. EDIT: Meningitis is the exception.
        titzer 5y ago
        This is where I went to undergrad: https://www.purdue.edu/push/Immunization/ https://www.purdue.edu/push/Immunization/
        5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

It seems like longer, but COVID has only been a thing for around 21 months. To be this far in vaccination at this point is huge progress. Achieving desktop Linux and nuclear fusion have been ongoing projects for far longer.

nradov 5y ago

There is no such thing as safety, only varying degrees of risk. Everyone has a different risk tolerance. Failure to explicitly quantify acceptable risks leads to people making invalid assumptions and talking past each other.

refurb 5y ago
This is very true - I remember a colleague getting slapped down by the FDA when he said his company's FDA-approved drug was "safe". "There is no 'safe' drug", he was told, "only acceptable risk-benefit tradeoffs". In addition, what is acceptable on a national level (e.g. 50 deaths from vaccination side effects) may not be acceptable on a individual basis (e.g. you die from a vaccine side effect). Just like people dismiss the risk of Covid until it kills a family member, the flip side is people dismiss the risk of vaccination until it kills a family member.

mikepurvis 5y ago

In fairness, I think it's been just as frustrating to the health officials setting out those targets— between non-compliance with the initial guidelines (both due to idiocy, and due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home), and then the appearance of the delta variant just as vaccination campaigns were getting seriously under way, I'm sure it has very much felt like fighting a battle against moving goalposts.

JackFr 5y ago
> due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home Government supports or not, you do realize everyone can't stay home?
- Griffinsauce 5y ago
  Why do so many discussions around this have to devolve to reasoning against absolute straw-men arguments? The point wasn't for "everybody" to stay at home but to expand "everybody who can" to the highest possible number, by removing economic and other barriers.
  - linuxftw 5y ago
    Why do people act like a completely unreasonable plan (and plan is generous) created by the morons in charge was ever going to be followed, let alone work? Garbage in, garbage out.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you suppose the decisions makers could have done in the moment that would have persuaded you and other contrarians that they had a plan worth following, or at least worth trying?
      - 5y ago

refurb 5y ago

If you think that's fun, imagine the steady state being like flu - monitoring Covid variants, then trying to predict which ones will be the next "wave". Some years you'll get it right and put a big damper on spread and some years you'll pick the wrong variant leaving most people unprotected. That's one reason why flu deaths in the US fluctuate annually (in addition to the severity of the flu). A few years back the vaccine basically did nothing.