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Apple announces first states to adopt driver’s licenses and IDs in Apple Wallet

177 points by css 5y ago

css 5y ago
> Arizona, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Oklahoma, and Utah are among the first states to bring state IDs and driver’s licenses in Wallet to their residents
mrfusion 5y ago
Is it ok that this scares me? What if you’re accused of spreading misinformation and Apple pulls your license?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  You’d still have your physical ID. It would be reasonable for there to be statute that prohibits Apple from revoking your digital ID, as the state retains the property rights of the ID, not Apple. (beta tester in my state of this product)
  - mrfusion 5y ago
    > You’d still have your physical ID. For now. In the future I could see a cost saving measure to be all digital. > It would be reasonable for there to be statute that prohibits Apple from revoking your digital ID There are a lot of reasonable statutes that should exist.
    - duxup 5y ago
      I think the idea that an id would be digital only but then you're beholden to whomever software runs it would be frowned upon by the courts pretty fast. Lots of 'software gone bad and dorked up someone's life' kinda situations out there but when it comes to IDs and simple interactions like presenting one the courts are pretty generally pretty reasonable. I would expect some physical ID to continue for a long time.
      - mrfusion 5y ago
        You’ve got a lot of faith in the courts. What if our government becomes more dysfunctional? What if court appointments become super partisan and the other tribe is appointing them?
        duxup 5y ago
        >What if our government becomes more dysfunctional? You tell me. What are you proposing at that point? A physical ID is going to save you from anarchy?
        mrfusion 5y ago
        IMO physical is safer than digital but I could be wrong.
    - EA 5y ago
      I would guess that a physical ID makes the states and the economy a lot of money. It cost almost $40 to renew a license here in Alabama and it can be done in less than 15 minutes. It is a token that allows third parties to verify the ID of someone with pretty good accuracy.
- nojito 5y ago
  What? Apple doesn't control whether or not you have a Driver's License. This makes zero sense.
  - gruez 5y ago
    I think his point is that apple can revoke access to your digital license.
    - nojito 5y ago
      How? That’s like saying Apple can cancel your digital credit cards. Apple has no say in invalidating your license.
      - CompuHacker 5y ago
        So far as I know, Apple can change arbitrary bits in the memory and file system of any online device they make. So, they can turn it off, change files, change the functioning of processes and apps, including removing any particular app. They can cause an iPhone to not display an image of or transmit the details of a drivers license, even if one is stored in the device, despite the effort of the user. But the status of being licensed to drive is kept in one or several databases controlled by one or many states or agencies. Similarly, the status of having a credit card is kept in a database controlled by at least one credit card company. Licenses and payment accounts can be verified for everyday use with less than 100bits even without a physical or digital representation of the card face available. If Apple can stop a device from transmitting or displaying license details, then I guess you'll... need either a physical copy or the license number.
        nojito 5y ago
        This is beyond ludicrous. Your drivers license does not live with Apple nor does Apple control whether or not you have one.
        CompuHacker 5y ago
1023bytes 5y ago
So this is only valid for TSA or for traffic stops as well?
- sneak 5y ago
  Can you imagine willingly handing your phone to a cop?
  - mr_ndrsn 5y ago
    > Presenting a driver’s license or state ID to TSA: Once added to Wallet, customers can present their driver’s license or state ID to the TSA by simply tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch at the identity reader. Upon tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch, customers will see a prompt on their device displaying the specific information being requested by the TSA. Only after authorizing with Face ID or Touch ID is the requested identity information released from their device, which ensures that just the required information is shared and only the person who added the driver’s license or state ID to the device can present it. Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. Please read the article. It's presented there, and not even hidden away.
    - sneak 5y ago
      TSA aren't cops. I was referring to a traffic stop, where the default order from a cop when presented with something like this would be simply "give me your phone."
      - aeontech 5y ago
        If the cop doesn't have a reader that can read this on his belt, he is not going to accept it anyway, just like they wouldn't accept a photo of an ID. They'd require the physical license. If he has a reader on his belt, you would still not need to hand over the phone, you would just tap it on his reader, which would then prompt you to agree to share the specific fields from the driver license that he needs. I mean yeah, of course they could still demand your phone, they can also demand you get out of the car, handcuff you, search the car and take anything they find on the most vaguely worded suspicions, but there's no technical solution for that problem.
sneak 5y ago
At this point it isn't even a big deal. Apple has and can see all your nudes in your non-e2e iCloud Backup (including all of the ones sent to you by others, even via SMS), all of your chats, your address book, your phone number (your iPhone uploads it to Apple when you insert it, even if you don't use iCloud), and device serial number (sent to iTunes when you open the App Store). They have your 24/7 location if you have location services enabled. Providing your name and address is basically no big deal at this point. One ID, strongly linked to government identifiers, strongly linked to every activity you take on your most important computer, one you can't install apps on without permission. What could possibly go wrong?
- kube-system 5y ago
  They probably already have name and address. Settings > Apple ID > Payment and Shipping
  - sneak 5y ago
    If you use a disposable Apple ID and only add funds with gift cards, they do not. Apple has started selling iPhones in person by appointment only, however, and a phone number is required to get an appointment. You used to be able to walk in, masked, and buy one for cash, without providing any identifiers.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Which is why I used the word > probably Most people follow the typical steps to set up their phone
- b0tzzzzzzman 5y ago
  Could not agree more. Yet we are the minority. In time, if not already they will be more powerful than governments. How far away are they from passport storage? What if they produce their own apple passport predicated on the data about you and the trust score you have. There is a reason the writer stopped making Black Mirror.
- 5y ago
dave_aiello 5y ago
One use case for this is places like Pennsylvania where you typically need to produce a government-issued ID to purchase alcohol. In 100%-proof-of-ID stores, cashiers often don't look at the photo on the ID, they scan the bar code on the back of the Driver's License that's presented. Why not use the Digital ID in an Apple Wallet in those situations?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- xoa 5y ago
  THIS is what strikes me as the use case for this, and 100% absolutely not using it with any interaction with the law. Preferably the only way I ever go through any law interaction with my phone on me is if it's turned off, or at the very very least have used the emergency function to disable Touch ID/Face ID which also discards the transient keys for decrypting storage (and no I don't use iCloud Backup or iCloud Photos). Smartphones and computers at this point fare essentially exocortexes, but the law does not protect them the same way it protects the contents of our minds. However, there are lots and lots and lots of private interactions where cryptographic assertable proof of identity would be enormously valuable and a big win for privacy, fraud reduction etc, but the other party certainly has zero right or capability to demand your device, go through it and use force against you based on what they find there. Not just in retail but particularly online the state of identity verification in the US is just fucking abysmal even now. Common workarounds include stuff like literally taking a photo of your government ID and then emailing it, which of course is terrible in every respect. From the description and example screen it appears this offers reasonably fine-grained information options. So if there was a secure generally available API ala Apple Pay wherein sites could simply request the minimum needed like age verification and address verification (obviously I'm supplying the address anyway to have things shipped, but this would help assert that yes that was my address) that could be quite valuable if still imperfect.
- sethhochberg 5y ago
  I'm surprised so many of the comments jumped right to presenting ID to the government. This sort of thing was exactly what I had in mind too. My watch can already: - stream music when I go for a run in the park - give emergency info to first responders if something happens to me while I'm out - pay for the bus or train home if I need it for some reason with Omny + Apple Pay - pay for things I stop to buy with Apple Pay Giving govt-issued proof of age so I can buy a beer on occasion after a workout without taking my drivers' license with me is a welcome addition to all the rest of that power. If I'm crossing a border, I've already got alternative hard-copy ID on me.
duxup 5y ago
>Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. That was my first concern. I don't want to hand an unlocked phone over to someone just to show ID. I'm not surprised, but still glad they covered this use case.
- mrfusion 5y ago
  You really don’t even want them to know you have a smart phone.
  - duxup 5y ago
    I'm not sure that's much of a mystery tho... They do also state that: >Apple and the issuing states do not know when or where users present their IDs. That's nice too.
    - animex 5y ago
      Yet.
      - duxup 5y ago
        Despite the constant of pessimism about tech. I think most folks glib claims of "yet" don't happen. And I kinda wonder what use all that pessimism is in the face a protection that we would seem to want ... we like that it doesn't inform the state when the ID is presented right? No?
        coding123 5y ago
        I think you're underestimating what DID happen. I think anyone from the 80s, 90s and even 00s would be shocked to know what's going on in the private data markets of today.
        zaphod4prez 5y ago
        Surprised to hear you say that... nearly all of the privacy concerns that I've heard raised by tech people in the last decade have become reality. Just a few that come to mind: - A fun recent relevation is that companies are selling & buying netflow data [link](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-...). - [Govt tracking you by your cell location](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/federal-agencies-are-secretly-buying-consumer-data https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fede...), and [another link on same topic](https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...) - [Another one](https://www.vice.com/en/article/88ng8x/pentagon-americans-surveillance-without-warrant-internet-browsing https://www.vice.com/en/article/88ng8x/pentagon-americans-su...) about gov't purchasing and using other private data like browsing history - Local police departments using cell-site-simulators to intercept cell traffic [link](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/new-law-restrict-stingray-surveillance-use https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/new-la...), [link to map of which states are confirmed to have them](https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/stingray-tracking-devices-whos-got-them https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-...). - Apple, which previously has stated that they have a strong commitment to privacy & encryption, starts scanning photos on local devices; an expansion of their previous policy of scanning/sharing only data in iCloud [link](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-will-come-apple-has-opened-backdoor-increased-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-w...) - Concerns that centralized social media would lead to censorship. (Whether or not you think it's good that they're doing so, the privacy/speech concern has been borne out). [Instagram censoring political content](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/06/censorship-facebook-instagram-twitter-india-palestine-colombia https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/06/censorship-facebook-insta...), [of course tiktok censors political content](https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/20883993/tiktok-censorship-china-bytedance-politics https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/20883993/tiktok-censorshi...), and a google search brings up many more. - The censorship of the lab leak theory for covid is a particularly interesting one... in 2020 it was ridiculed and censored, and then began to be taken seriously by the US govt and other "official" sources, showing that the censorship was way out of line [link](https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebooks-lab-leak-about-face-11622154198 https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebooks-lab-leak-about-face-1...).
ajay-b 5y ago
I have considered it a possible convenience to have identification on my phone, but only as a backup to a hard copy.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I keep PDFs of scans of my government issued documents accessible on my phone.
  - subpixel 5y ago
    Me too, but I keep them in 1Password
- brundolf 5y ago
  Yeah, the case where I can see myself using this is if I wanted to pop out to pick up food or something real quick, I could actually leave my wallet at home (using the payment and now DL on my phone). Previously I got very limited use out of phone-based payments because I had to have my wallet on me anyway, for my ID.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dotBen 5y ago
This currently may only be for a TSA usecase but this area of using a phone to show ID starts to get very murky very quickly My insurance company has an app that will display my proof of insurance - just hand your phone to the police officer at the stop. The trouble is you are legally surrendering the possession of your unlocked phone to a police officer who can then search through it. I asked a lawyer friend about this and he said the law doesn't allow you to granularly declare the terms under which you surrender your property (ie you can't say "don't look at anything else officer, just keep that app window open"). It's the same with finger prints as biometric - no one considered that you can plead the 5th when asked for a pin code but you can't decline to have your fingerprints taken (including on your own phone sensor). I'm assuming face recognition is same. Back to this Apple Wallet announcement, TSA scanning is a very restrictive usecase that feels like just a wedge otherwise it's pretty low value. But then why would anyone want to hand over their phone to the police (or another government agency) so they can take the phone with the ID on it back to their cruiser to write up your ticket. Of course they are going to have a quick search through your phone. That's not paranoia, that's good police work on their part. Adding your government ID to Apple Wallet just seems like something that sounds technically cool but not properly thought out OR will only have very limited usecases.
- duxup 5y ago
  >The trouble is you are legally surrendering the possession of your unlocked phone to a police officer who can then search through it. From the announcement: >Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID.
  - dotBen 5y ago
    That's fair point which I both missed and not personally familiar with as I'm an Android user (Android's equivalent of Apple Wallet does require you to unlock your phone). I still worry about relying on my phone to hold my ID and then surrendering my phone when it's reasonable for the other party (presumably a government entity) to want to look at it in more detail or take the ID away for a period of time (eg during a traffic stop they will take your ID to run you through the computer and write your ticket up) I also worry functionality like this leads to changes in general expectations which leads to more implementation that may not be as carefully executed
rangerdan 5y ago
We are building systems for turn-key tyranny. Stop using closed source, proprietary, for-profit technology which only oppresses us and builds a hellish future for our children to experience. Avoid rotten Apple.
harikb 5y ago
Edit: not even show the device. That is great!
- jabedude 5y ago
  For anyone curious, from TFA: > Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID
CalChris 5y ago
I use Apple Pay quite a lot and I'm looking forward to vaccination record support in iOS 15. But I don't think I have a use case for this. If I did, it would be my choice; I don't particularly like do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. Still I'm ok with Apple providing this feature, but I have to find a use case before I'd use it. And I don't like its opt-in once, broadcast thereafter approach.
- cjbconnor 5y ago
  It doesn't exactly 'broadcast' your ID, physical proximity to your phone is still needed. It's like adding a loyalty card, etc. to apple wallet where you can just tap your device to the reader.
  - CalChris 5y ago
    I'm hoping it's like Apple Pay, where I choose and authorize with Face ID + button. It shouldn't be passively readable. Anyways, it will be awhile before it applies in California. CA DMV is not an early adopter of this.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      According to the announcement, that's exactly how it works. It uses the same functions as Apple Pay, Transit Passes, and Rewards cards to authenticate/authorize and then uses the new digital ID standard to present.
  - oceanplexian 5y ago
    That's what they said about RFID until it was broken, and people starting building hardware that could snoop on it from a backpack several meters away.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  What part of that don't you like? You'd still need to authenticate your device no matter how you present it. You just don't have to unlock the device to validate your ID. It would work exactly like Apple Pay.
xfitm3 5y ago
No thanks.. I will keep my physical license.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
Interesting. If they can make the creation of these state IDs free and easily done remotely it may tip the balance towards making voter ID laws reasonable. If all major smartphone providers implemented this, smart phone ownership is already 80% and growing among the poor ($<30k / year)in the united states according to a google search.
- duxup 5y ago
  >free and easily done remotely That kinda sounds like a recipe for fraud and the end result the opposite of what you describe.
- aero-glide2 5y ago
  Never understood the voter id controversy. Even India which has a lot of poor people mandates voter IDs and it's easy to get one. And there are 800 million voter IDs in India. If India can do it then why can't USA?
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    Its largely a political issue in which the republican party claims fraud is rampant without voter IDs but simultaneously makes it difficult for poor people to get them. In many locations they're not free. In some, like Georgia I think, it is free, but you still need to gather documents and go to a DMV and register, which is, frankly, difficult to do when you're poor and don't have a car. The effect of requiring voter IDs when they're not free AND easy to acquire is disproportionately preventing the poor from voting vs. stopping fraud.
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    It’s a manufactured issue designed to get people to squabble with each other on racial lines instead of uniting. There are zero legitimate reason why a country with the resources of the US can’t accomplish something basic like this. It’s intentional.
    - macintux 5y ago
protect2 5y ago
Disgusting. Another brick in the wall that will promise convenience but ultimately erode Freedom. Avoid Apple if you have any values and ethics left, if not for you, do it for future generations.
onionisafruit 5y ago
Even though a normal transaction won't have you handing your phone over to TSA or the police, I am still hesitant of showing them that you have access to unlock the phone.
mark_l_watson 5y ago
I live in Arizona and sometimes don't carry my drivers license. I have a hires scan of it on my phone. This new setup is better, in my opinion.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  A photo is not an original, no? Therefore can't be used when trust is required. It might be useful to give an ID number when arrested (without ID ), that's why I memorized mine back in the day.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  Arizona is one of the few states that already has a digital ID through the DMV. If you download the DMV app, you can scan the barcode on the back of your license to get your digital copy. It doesn't go into Apple Wallet yet but it's legal and has an interactive certification banner to prove it's real.
aero-glide2 5y ago
Why is this being done by Apple and not the government itself? This should be device agnostic. Like Indian Govt's DigiLocker. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiLocker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiLocker
- protect2 5y ago
  Big business and government are virtually inseparable in modern US.
- duxup 5y ago
  The wallet exists already as far as Apple is concerned. I don't see a reason it can't be used with the government or that the government needs to make its own app.
- YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
  > Apple and not the government I'm of the opinion that Apple is a defacto arm (back channel) of the government now based on recent developments.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- shados 5y ago
  Im not super fond of the idea of having a brand lock-in to make it easier to work with the governments. This feels a bit like a world where Turbotax was the only game in town for softwares to file taxes. So you'd have either the manual way, or Intuit and that's it. This isn't as bad, and I didn't look much into it so maybe there's stuff I don't know that lessens the negative, but seeing it being Apple specific doesn't make me feel so good.
- d35007 5y ago
  What makes you think governments aren't involved? The article says: > Apple’s mobile ID implementation supports the ISO 18013-5 mDL (mobile driver’s license) standard which Apple has played an active role in the development of If you do a little casual googling, you will find references to the Australian government being involved in the development of that standard. You can also find proposals from the US Department of Homeland Security that refer to the standard. Speaking of Google, Wikipedia says > For example, Android's JetPack suite comes with specific support for ISO 18013–5 from version API 24. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_license Does that qualify as device agnostic?
pdkl95 5y ago
What happens when the traditional "analog" alternative is no longer commonly used? Digital, network dependent "upgrades" to traditional protocols and infrastructure are obviously convenient, but what happens when the network fails? When carrying "old style" ID becomes inconvenient and "unnecessary", do entire classes of services simply shut down if the network fails, suffers some sort of DOS attack (or overloaded OCSP server), or a terrorist (or unlucky backhoe) cuts an important fiber optic cable? Are services like a "digital wallet" useful? How are they harmful? These questions are, of course, very important and need to be carefully investigated. However, whenever this type of technological convenience is introduced that might de facto replace existing protocols or infrastructure people currently rely upon, I rarely see any discussion of the ramifications of introducing technological interdependence and the resulting transitive risk. Dan Geer, on this topic[1]: >> The root source of risk is dependence, especially dependence on the expectation of stable system state. Dependence is not only individual but mutual, not only am I dependent or not but rather a continuous scale asking whether we are dependent or not; we are, and it is called interdependence. Interdependence is transitive, hence the risk that flows from interdependence is transitive, i.e., if you depend on the digital world and I depend on you, then I, too, am at risk from failures in the digital world. If individual dependencies were only static, they would be eventually evaluable, but we regularly and quickly expand our dependence on new things, and that added dependence matters because we each and severally add risk to our portfolio by way of dependence on things for which their very newness confounds risk estimation and thus risk management. [...] Remember, something becomes "a critical infrastructure" as soon as it is widely enough adopted; adoption is the gateway drug to criticality. >> The most telling fork in the road of them all is whether we retain an ability to operate our world, or at least the parts we would call critical, by analog means. Analog means, and only analog means, do not share a common mode failure with the digital world at large. But to preserve analog means requires that they be used, not left to gather dust on some societal shelf in the hope than when they are needed they will work. This requires a base load, a body of use and users that keep the analog working. [...] >> What we have here is an historic anomaly, an anomaly where the most readily available counter to an otherwise inexorable drift into a vortex of singleton technology risk and the preservation of a spectrum of non-trivial civil rights is one and the same counter: the guarantee, by force of law where necessary, that those who choose to not participate in the digital melange can nevertheless fully enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that to opt out of the digital vortex does not thereby require that they live in medieval conditions, and, by doing so, we reap a national security benefit in the bargain as those opting out are the base load for the analog alternative. [...] >> And that is what I am here to tell you, that the future of humanity and cybersecurity are conjoined, so that as we prepare to make some decisions that are of the fork-in-the-road sort, we need to think it through because in making decisions about cybersecurity we are choosing amongst possible futures for humanity. Those decisions will be expensive to later reverse in either dollars or clock-ticks. >> The onrushing world of full personalization means the rational decision for the individual or the small entity does not and will not aggregate into the rational decision for society at large. Perhaps that is the core effect from a rate of change up with which we cannot keep. [...] >> You, we, are the masters of the universe now. What will we do with that power, which we have but a short while more? [1] video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbDEbfijxNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbDEbfijxNY text: http://geer.tinho.net/geer.ncc.8x18.txt http://geer.tinho.net/geer.ncc.8x18.txt
nbzso 5y ago
Digital ID for everyone, here we go. Globally, right? Not for me do. Until there is no other option than this, I will refuse it. If I am lucky I have 30-40 something years ahead of me, more is a bonus territory. So I intend to live as a human being, not some database record "because of digitalization". If this means not to have smartphone or using computers in local networks, so be it. Big F--- you for corporations and governments of the world for collaborating behind the scenes to move us to Minority Report reality. Apple the global leader in surveillance and government control. Who would guess? What is the new slogan Apple: You are living it wrong?
- codyswann 5y ago
  I'm so excited for this. It's the end of my physical wallet. Is there something concrete you're worried about or is it you just don't like giving big brother too much of your info?
  - foepys 5y ago
    > Is there something concrete you're worried about A dead battery and a virus on my phone stealing all of my data, identity, and then time to get it straightened out again.
    - codyswann 5y ago
      I lose my wallet (3 times) far more often than I get a virus on my phone (never). And I forget my wallet (all the time) more often than my phone dies without a charger (maybe once every six months)
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    I'm not grandparent poster, but depending on who supplies and configures the ID reader, a digital system makes it easier to track people. E.g. if you show your ID at a liquor store, currently the cashier would just check your age and then forget about you. If s/he has a barcode scanner or an Apple ID scanner, then that scanner can log your visits. And your whereabouts can be tracked by following where your ID was scanned throughtout time. In China, ID cards have RFID and they have to be scanned when entering a train station or airports (or the old town of Lhasa in Tibet), so a future government here might abuse a similar system to track you and maybe harass you by saying "You were in this area yesterday, there was $SOME_BAD_EVENT, what's your alibi?". China also implements long distance travel bans by refusing you entry to the train station/airport, e.g. if you have a bad "social score", which, I imagine would be ripe for abuse in a Trumpian regime. (Although the FBI already abused the no-fly list for the purposes of harassing individuals)
rowanG077 5y ago
I don't know. I really don't like big companies forcing themselves into this. There are already great open source solution ready to be used like IRMA[1], I would love for them to be used instead of Apple or Google becoming even more indispensable. [1] https://github.com/privacybydesign/irmago https://github.com/privacybydesign/irmago
jrochkind1 5y ago
How long until those without a version on their phone have to wait in a different slower longer line at TSA?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Being able to pay to bypass TSA or cut the line for TSA has always been a thing. Private jets, Precheck, and this monstrosity where you pay a private company to become a more equal member of US society: https://www.clearme.com/support/tsa-precheck/how-does-clear-work-with-tsa-precheck/ https://www.clearme.com/support/tsa-precheck/how-does-clear-...
  - lozaning 5y ago
    Through my American Express card I could get Clear paid for, and I still refuse to do it because I think the business model is just that scummy.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    I'm not sure it's ALWAYS been a thing, or at least it's scale has definitely grown more recently, but, yeah, that's why I thought of it being extended to 'those with e-wallets', of course. I do won't do any of that "clear" or even "pre-check" stuff just on principle; most everyone I know thinks I'm crazy. I try to fly as little as I can these days, even before pandemic, it's just so unpleasant both in terms of security/dignity as well as physical comfort.
- shadowtree 5y ago
  TSA-PreCheck, Global Entry and Clear all already exist. https://www.clearme.com/ https://www.clearme.com/
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    Right. Which is why I'm wondering how long until those without IDs in an "e-wallet" get penalized too.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Seems like this would work best in places with free high-speed public wifi and device charging infrastructure. Do those places exist? Western Europe, East Asia? As with the rest of Apple Wallet/Pay offerings, turning analog into digital has its trade-offs.
- ec109685 5y ago
  It’s all stored locally on the device, so no Wifi needed.
josh_today 5y ago
We should start thinking about how to ensure that physical IDs will always be available Or Create a user controlled devices to store critical documentation like this (something like a crypto wallet but with an easier setup/interface)
- walterbell 5y ago
  Something like Bunnie Huang's Precursor? https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor > customers can present their driver’s license or state ID to the TSA by simply tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch at the identity reader. That sounds like NFC, which could be a feature request for Precursor v2.
- ksec 5y ago
  >We should start thinking about how to ensure that physical IDs will always be available Same the reason why I am extremely against getting rid of physcial money. >Create a user controlled devices to store critical documentation like this (something like a crypto wallet but with an easier setup/interface) Yes. This. One point in time you would have thought having everything on your Smartphone, everything simple was utopia. But reality is we need better power structure and separation of concerns. Or in reality I lost trust with Apple.
- photojosh 5y ago
  Digital IDs should always be in addition to physical IDs, even if you just leave the latter at home most of the time. My philosophy if buying a "smart" device is that they must "fail dumb"... I won't buy a smart lock that doesn't use a key as backup, for instance.
i386 5y ago
Can someone edit this to be “first US states” please. US centrism is so rude.
- vages 5y ago
  The HN policy is to repeat the headline without any changes. You will have to contact Apple about it, as the original headline omits US as well.
- isitdopamine 5y ago
  > US centrism is so rude. Are you sure rude is the right term? Usually you would define rude something deliberate. As annoying as it might be, this is not deliberate.
  - i386 5y ago
    Yeah it’s rude.
    - isitdopamine 5y ago
      I don’t see how something not deliberate can be rude, to be honest… The fact that someone is offended doesn’t make it rude. People get offended for pretty much everything these days, yet not everything is rude!
amelius 5y ago
So after Facebook and others, Apple now requires a real name too?
jostmey 5y ago
There is going to be a rough transition. Suppose I live in Oklahoma, which accepts driver's licenses in Apply Wallet. So I leave my physical driver's license at home. Later my friend in Texas calls, so I cross state lines and the police pull me over. Now I don't have a license the police will accept?
- ArchOversight 5y ago
  Why wouldn't the police accept a legal document that is valid for the state you received your drivers license in? Police in Texas also will happily accept a drivers license from out of the country in whatever form that happens to be. Same way I can travel around Europe with my US drivers license...
- caterama 5y ago
  A valid license is a valid license? Whether or not rural cops are aware is a different issue. I'm also curious how it will work to hand over "license and registration" info. Traditionally, you give them your physical license, they might go back to their vehicle with it, and come back after several minutes. No way I'm giving them my phone! Until the technology is ubiquitous, people will have to carry the physical copy like normal. If it becomes ubiquitous, it should become ubiquitous in tandem with something like a handheld scanner the police brings to your window. Will it ever completely replace the physical copy? I doubt it... Apple Pay has been out for 6 years now and not all point of sale terminals accept it. It's hard to know beforehand which places accept. Not to mention that phones run out of battery and can get misplaced. Redundancy is good.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nbzso 5y ago
The disturbing thing is that instead of breaking monopolistic behemoths who are feeding their empires from our data, governments are offloading more power to them. If some form of Digital ID is required it must be done on government level with proper public oversight and always available analogue procedures and backup. But this is convenient, you say. What is this? Because you have a digital gizmo, knowing all about you, you cannot comprehend the magnitude of situation? You trust a private corporation more than actual laws and government procedures and you feel right and cool? You have nothing to hide and everyone is having your data anyway? The Minority Report version of the future is building in front of you and you don't care, because is convenient? Are you not informed? Are you technically uneducated? Or are you blind? CCP Social rating is working in China. In the next two years will work globally, under different "democratic" branding. What is a logical response? The logical response is simple. It is time to balance convenience with privacy and some form of "realistic" view of the world. This corporate power will be abused. The question is how soon.
- cookiengineer 5y ago
  A corporation like Apple has by definition a conflicting view on upholding the law. They have financial interests, and putting someone with that in charge of identity (and therefore all freedom rights) is the definition of as corruptable as possible. Apple cannot be trusted as long as they even don't give a damn on paying taxes. They only give a damn about the law when it fits their financial agenda.
- littleweep 5y ago
  You present problems. What are the solutions in your view?
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    Paper? Or at least working toward open source, which is what an actually transparent government should run with.
  - nbzso 5y ago
    Solutions must be created publicly with active participation of experts from different domains. Regulations and laws must be defined with expertise and care for the future of humanity, with proper protection of privacy and existing legislative frameworks. There are proven principles that define our world. The tech overlords are playing gods at the moment, and the minions are following the lead. Solutions arise when expertise is manifested trough political and public action. Bed time stories about convenience and trust are for kids. Grown-up humans are using history as a reference to protect the future and work actively towards balanced implementation. One logical tech solution is everything that is of critical importance to be open-sourced and scrutinized on a regular basis. The other is to regulate big tech and create a line that cannot be crossed. What is Apple anyway? Entertainment company? Utility company? Automotive company? Digital services company? Now they are police and government? Whats going on actually?
petarb 5y ago
Why’s California not on the list, sigh…
Animats 5y ago
If you violate the Apple terms of service, are you still allowed to drive?
SergeAx 5y ago
I am from outside of US and don't grok all the nuance of US laws. What is the difference between having my driver license in Apple wallet and having a digital photo of it in my phone?
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  Certification, basically. There's nothing that validates that the image is authentic if it's just a picture. Having it in Apple Wallet validates that it's a certified ID. AZ, for example, is one of the states going first because they already have a Digital ID. From what I understand, the digital version shows the same info as the ID but has an animated certification banner that can be interacted with to verify that it's a legitimate ID.
  - SergeAx 5y ago
    Thank you for reply, it's getting clearer now. Still don't understand what exactly is being certified here. Does Apple wallet somehow communicates with government database and verifies the ID, and then protects it against spoofing with some kind of government-approved cryptography?
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
suddenly the surveillance infrastructure Apple enabled under the guise of CSAM is making sense.
randomcharhere 5y ago
So when your iphone gets hacked they have every thing they need in a nice neat package to make your life hell. The more valuable you make the phone the more likely bad actors are to go after it ... I can only see bad things from this.

177 points by css 5y ago

css 5y ago

> Arizona, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Oklahoma, and Utah are among the first states to bring state IDs and driver’s licenses in Wallet to their residents

mrfusion 5y ago

Is it ok that this scares me? What if you’re accused of spreading misinformation and Apple pulls your license?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
You’d still have your physical ID. It would be reasonable for there to be statute that prohibits Apple from revoking your digital ID, as the state retains the property rights of the ID, not Apple. (beta tester in my state of this product)
- mrfusion 5y ago
  > You’d still have your physical ID. For now. In the future I could see a cost saving measure to be all digital. > It would be reasonable for there to be statute that prohibits Apple from revoking your digital ID There are a lot of reasonable statutes that should exist.
  - duxup 5y ago
    I think the idea that an id would be digital only but then you're beholden to whomever software runs it would be frowned upon by the courts pretty fast. Lots of 'software gone bad and dorked up someone's life' kinda situations out there but when it comes to IDs and simple interactions like presenting one the courts are pretty generally pretty reasonable. I would expect some physical ID to continue for a long time.
    - mrfusion 5y ago
      You’ve got a lot of faith in the courts. What if our government becomes more dysfunctional? What if court appointments become super partisan and the other tribe is appointing them?
      - duxup 5y ago
        >What if our government becomes more dysfunctional? You tell me. What are you proposing at that point? A physical ID is going to save you from anarchy?
        mrfusion 5y ago
        IMO physical is safer than digital but I could be wrong.
  - EA 5y ago
    I would guess that a physical ID makes the states and the economy a lot of money. It cost almost $40 to renew a license here in Alabama and it can be done in less than 15 minutes. It is a token that allows third parties to verify the ID of someone with pretty good accuracy.
nojito 5y ago
What? Apple doesn't control whether or not you have a Driver's License. This makes zero sense.
- gruez 5y ago
  I think his point is that apple can revoke access to your digital license.
  - nojito 5y ago
    How? That’s like saying Apple can cancel your digital credit cards. Apple has no say in invalidating your license.
    - CompuHacker 5y ago
      So far as I know, Apple can change arbitrary bits in the memory and file system of any online device they make. So, they can turn it off, change files, change the functioning of processes and apps, including removing any particular app. They can cause an iPhone to not display an image of or transmit the details of a drivers license, even if one is stored in the device, despite the effort of the user. But the status of being licensed to drive is kept in one or several databases controlled by one or many states or agencies. Similarly, the status of having a credit card is kept in a database controlled by at least one credit card company. Licenses and payment accounts can be verified for everyday use with less than 100bits even without a physical or digital representation of the card face available. If Apple can stop a device from transmitting or displaying license details, then I guess you'll... need either a physical copy or the license number.
      - nojito 5y ago
        This is beyond ludicrous. Your drivers license does not live with Apple nor does Apple control whether or not you have one.
        CompuHacker 5y ago

1023bytes 5y ago

So this is only valid for TSA or for traffic stops as well?

sneak 5y ago
Can you imagine willingly handing your phone to a cop?
- mr_ndrsn 5y ago
  > Presenting a driver’s license or state ID to TSA: Once added to Wallet, customers can present their driver’s license or state ID to the TSA by simply tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch at the identity reader. Upon tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch, customers will see a prompt on their device displaying the specific information being requested by the TSA. Only after authorizing with Face ID or Touch ID is the requested identity information released from their device, which ensures that just the required information is shared and only the person who added the driver’s license or state ID to the device can present it. Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. Please read the article. It's presented there, and not even hidden away.
  - sneak 5y ago
    TSA aren't cops. I was referring to a traffic stop, where the default order from a cop when presented with something like this would be simply "give me your phone."
    - aeontech 5y ago
      If the cop doesn't have a reader that can read this on his belt, he is not going to accept it anyway, just like they wouldn't accept a photo of an ID. They'd require the physical license. If he has a reader on his belt, you would still not need to hand over the phone, you would just tap it on his reader, which would then prompt you to agree to share the specific fields from the driver license that he needs. I mean yeah, of course they could still demand your phone, they can also demand you get out of the car, handcuff you, search the car and take anything they find on the most vaguely worded suspicions, but there's no technical solution for that problem.

sneak 5y ago

At this point it isn't even a big deal. Apple has and can see all your nudes in your non-e2e iCloud Backup (including all of the ones sent to you by others, even via SMS), all of your chats, your address book, your phone number (your iPhone uploads it to Apple when you insert it, even if you don't use iCloud), and device serial number (sent to iTunes when you open the App Store). They have your 24/7 location if you have location services enabled. Providing your name and address is basically no big deal at this point. One ID, strongly linked to government identifiers, strongly linked to every activity you take on your most important computer, one you can't install apps on without permission. What could possibly go wrong?

kube-system 5y ago
They probably already have name and address. Settings > Apple ID > Payment and Shipping
- sneak 5y ago
  If you use a disposable Apple ID and only add funds with gift cards, they do not. Apple has started selling iPhones in person by appointment only, however, and a phone number is required to get an appointment. You used to be able to walk in, masked, and buy one for cash, without providing any identifiers.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Which is why I used the word > probably Most people follow the typical steps to set up their phone
b0tzzzzzzman 5y ago
Could not agree more. Yet we are the minority. In time, if not already they will be more powerful than governments. How far away are they from passport storage? What if they produce their own apple passport predicated on the data about you and the trust score you have. There is a reason the writer stopped making Black Mirror.
5y ago

dave_aiello 5y ago

One use case for this is places like Pennsylvania where you typically need to produce a government-issued ID to purchase alcohol. In 100%-proof-of-ID stores, cashiers often don't look at the photo on the ID, they scan the bar code on the back of the Driver's License that's presented. Why not use the Digital ID in an Apple Wallet in those situations?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
xoa 5y ago
THIS is what strikes me as the use case for this, and 100% absolutely not using it with any interaction with the law. Preferably the only way I ever go through any law interaction with my phone on me is if it's turned off, or at the very very least have used the emergency function to disable Touch ID/Face ID which also discards the transient keys for decrypting storage (and no I don't use iCloud Backup or iCloud Photos). Smartphones and computers at this point fare essentially exocortexes, but the law does not protect them the same way it protects the contents of our minds. However, there are lots and lots and lots of private interactions where cryptographic assertable proof of identity would be enormously valuable and a big win for privacy, fraud reduction etc, but the other party certainly has zero right or capability to demand your device, go through it and use force against you based on what they find there. Not just in retail but particularly online the state of identity verification in the US is just fucking abysmal even now. Common workarounds include stuff like literally taking a photo of your government ID and then emailing it, which of course is terrible in every respect. From the description and example screen it appears this offers reasonably fine-grained information options. So if there was a secure generally available API ala Apple Pay wherein sites could simply request the minimum needed like age verification and address verification (obviously I'm supplying the address anyway to have things shipped, but this would help assert that yes that was my address) that could be quite valuable if still imperfect.
sethhochberg 5y ago
I'm surprised so many of the comments jumped right to presenting ID to the government. This sort of thing was exactly what I had in mind too. My watch can already: - stream music when I go for a run in the park - give emergency info to first responders if something happens to me while I'm out - pay for the bus or train home if I need it for some reason with Omny + Apple Pay - pay for things I stop to buy with Apple Pay Giving govt-issued proof of age so I can buy a beer on occasion after a workout without taking my drivers' license with me is a welcome addition to all the rest of that power. If I'm crossing a border, I've already got alternative hard-copy ID on me.

duxup 5y ago

>Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. That was my first concern. I don't want to hand an unlocked phone over to someone just to show ID. I'm not surprised, but still glad they covered this use case.

mrfusion 5y ago
You really don’t even want them to know you have a smart phone.
- duxup 5y ago
  I'm not sure that's much of a mystery tho... They do also state that: >Apple and the issuing states do not know when or where users present their IDs. That's nice too.
  - animex 5y ago
    Yet.
    - duxup 5y ago
      Despite the constant of pessimism about tech. I think most folks glib claims of "yet" don't happen. And I kinda wonder what use all that pessimism is in the face a protection that we would seem to want ... we like that it doesn't inform the state when the ID is presented right? No?
      - coding123 5y ago
        I think you're underestimating what DID happen. I think anyone from the 80s, 90s and even 00s would be shocked to know what's going on in the private data markets of today.
      - zaphod4prez 5y ago
        Surprised to hear you say that... nearly all of the privacy concerns that I've heard raised by tech people in the last decade have become reality. Just a few that come to mind: - A fun recent relevation is that companies are selling & buying netflow data [link](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-...). - [Govt tracking you by your cell location](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/federal-agencies-are-secretly-buying-consumer-data https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fede...), and [another link on same topic](https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...) - [Another one](https://www.vice.com/en/article/88ng8x/pentagon-americans-surveillance-without-warrant-internet-browsing https://www.vice.com/en/article/88ng8x/pentagon-americans-su...) about gov't purchasing and using other private data like browsing history - Local police departments using cell-site-simulators to intercept cell traffic [link](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/new-law-restrict-stingray-surveillance-use https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/new-la...), [link to map of which states are confirmed to have them](https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/stingray-tracking-devices-whos-got-them https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-...). - Apple, which previously has stated that they have a strong commitment to privacy & encryption, starts scanning photos on local devices; an expansion of their previous policy of scanning/sharing only data in iCloud [link](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-will-come-apple-has-opened-backdoor-increased-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/if-you-build-it-they-w...) - Concerns that centralized social media would lead to censorship. (Whether or not you think it's good that they're doing so, the privacy/speech concern has been borne out). [Instagram censoring political content](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/06/censorship-facebook-instagram-twitter-india-palestine-colombia https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/06/censorship-facebook-insta...), [of course tiktok censors political content](https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/20883993/tiktok-censorship-china-bytedance-politics https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/20883993/tiktok-censorshi...), and a google search brings up many more. - The censorship of the lab leak theory for covid is a particularly interesting one... in 2020 it was ridiculed and censored, and then began to be taken seriously by the US govt and other "official" sources, showing that the censorship was way out of line [link](https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebooks-lab-leak-about-face-11622154198 https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebooks-lab-leak-about-face-1...).

ajay-b 5y ago

I have considered it a possible convenience to have identification on my phone, but only as a backup to a hard copy.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I keep PDFs of scans of my government issued documents accessible on my phone.
- subpixel 5y ago
  Me too, but I keep them in 1Password
brundolf 5y ago
Yeah, the case where I can see myself using this is if I wanted to pop out to pick up food or something real quick, I could actually leave my wallet at home (using the payment and now DL on my phone). Previously I got very limited use out of phone-based payments because I had to have my wallet on me anyway, for my ID.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dotBen 5y ago

This currently may only be for a TSA usecase but this area of using a phone to show ID starts to get very murky very quickly My insurance company has an app that will display my proof of insurance - just hand your phone to the police officer at the stop. The trouble is you are legally surrendering the possession of your unlocked phone to a police officer who can then search through it. I asked a lawyer friend about this and he said the law doesn't allow you to granularly declare the terms under which you surrender your property (ie you can't say "don't look at anything else officer, just keep that app window open"). It's the same with finger prints as biometric - no one considered that you can plead the 5th when asked for a pin code but you can't decline to have your fingerprints taken (including on your own phone sensor). I'm assuming face recognition is same. Back to this Apple Wallet announcement, TSA scanning is a very restrictive usecase that feels like just a wedge otherwise it's pretty low value. But then why would anyone want to hand over their phone to the police (or another government agency) so they can take the phone with the ID on it back to their cruiser to write up your ticket. Of course they are going to have a quick search through your phone. That's not paranoia, that's good police work on their part. Adding your government ID to Apple Wallet just seems like something that sounds technically cool but not properly thought out OR will only have very limited usecases.

duxup 5y ago
>The trouble is you are legally surrendering the possession of your unlocked phone to a police officer who can then search through it. From the announcement: >Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID.
- dotBen 5y ago
  That's fair point which I both missed and not personally familiar with as I'm an Android user (Android's equivalent of Apple Wallet does require you to unlock your phone). I still worry about relying on my phone to hold my ID and then surrendering my phone when it's reasonable for the other party (presumably a government entity) to want to look at it in more detail or take the ID away for a period of time (eg during a traffic stop they will take your ID to run you through the computer and write your ticket up) I also worry functionality like this leads to changes in general expectations which leads to more implementation that may not be as carefully executed

rangerdan 5y ago

We are building systems for turn-key tyranny. Stop using closed source, proprietary, for-profit technology which only oppresses us and builds a hellish future for our children to experience. Avoid rotten Apple.

harikb 5y ago

Edit: not even show the device. That is great!

jabedude 5y ago
For anyone curious, from TFA: > Users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID

CalChris 5y ago

I use Apple Pay quite a lot and I'm looking forward to vaccination record support in iOS 15. But I don't think I have a use case for this. If I did, it would be my choice; I don't particularly like do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device to present their ID. Still I'm ok with Apple providing this feature, but I have to find a use case before I'd use it. And I don't like its opt-in once, broadcast thereafter approach.

cjbconnor 5y ago
It doesn't exactly 'broadcast' your ID, physical proximity to your phone is still needed. It's like adding a loyalty card, etc. to apple wallet where you can just tap your device to the reader.
- CalChris 5y ago
  I'm hoping it's like Apple Pay, where I choose and authorize with Face ID + button. It shouldn't be passively readable. Anyways, it will be awhile before it applies in California. CA DMV is not an early adopter of this.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    According to the announcement, that's exactly how it works. It uses the same functions as Apple Pay, Transit Passes, and Rewards cards to authenticate/authorize and then uses the new digital ID standard to present.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  That's what they said about RFID until it was broken, and people starting building hardware that could snoop on it from a backpack several meters away.
dkonofalski 5y ago
What part of that don't you like? You'd still need to authenticate your device no matter how you present it. You just don't have to unlock the device to validate your ID. It would work exactly like Apple Pay.

xfitm3 5y ago

No thanks.. I will keep my physical license.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

Interesting. If they can make the creation of these state IDs free and easily done remotely it may tip the balance towards making voter ID laws reasonable. If all major smartphone providers implemented this, smart phone ownership is already 80% and growing among the poor ($<30k / year)in the united states according to a google search.

duxup 5y ago
>free and easily done remotely That kinda sounds like a recipe for fraud and the end result the opposite of what you describe.
aero-glide2 5y ago
Never understood the voter id controversy. Even India which has a lot of poor people mandates voter IDs and it's easy to get one. And there are 800 million voter IDs in India. If India can do it then why can't USA?
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Its largely a political issue in which the republican party claims fraud is rampant without voter IDs but simultaneously makes it difficult for poor people to get them. In many locations they're not free. In some, like Georgia I think, it is free, but you still need to gather documents and go to a DMV and register, which is, frankly, difficult to do when you're poor and don't have a car. The effect of requiring voter IDs when they're not free AND easy to acquire is disproportionately preventing the poor from voting vs. stopping fraud.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  It’s a manufactured issue designed to get people to squabble with each other on racial lines instead of uniting. There are zero legitimate reason why a country with the resources of the US can’t accomplish something basic like this. It’s intentional.
  - macintux 5y ago

protect2 5y ago

Disgusting. Another brick in the wall that will promise convenience but ultimately erode Freedom. Avoid Apple if you have any values and ethics left, if not for you, do it for future generations.

onionisafruit 5y ago

Even though a normal transaction won't have you handing your phone over to TSA or the police, I am still hesitant of showing them that you have access to unlock the phone.

mark_l_watson 5y ago

I live in Arizona and sometimes don't carry my drivers license. I have a hires scan of it on my phone. This new setup is better, in my opinion.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
A photo is not an original, no? Therefore can't be used when trust is required. It might be useful to give an ID number when arrested (without ID ), that's why I memorized mine back in the day.
dkonofalski 5y ago
Arizona is one of the few states that already has a digital ID through the DMV. If you download the DMV app, you can scan the barcode on the back of your license to get your digital copy. It doesn't go into Apple Wallet yet but it's legal and has an interactive certification banner to prove it's real.

aero-glide2 5y ago

Why is this being done by Apple and not the government itself? This should be device agnostic. Like Indian Govt's DigiLocker. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiLocker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiLocker

protect2 5y ago
Big business and government are virtually inseparable in modern US.
duxup 5y ago
The wallet exists already as far as Apple is concerned. I don't see a reason it can't be used with the government or that the government needs to make its own app.
YLYvYkHeB2NRNT 5y ago
> Apple and not the government I'm of the opinion that Apple is a defacto arm (back channel) of the government now based on recent developments.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
shados 5y ago
Im not super fond of the idea of having a brand lock-in to make it easier to work with the governments. This feels a bit like a world where Turbotax was the only game in town for softwares to file taxes. So you'd have either the manual way, or Intuit and that's it. This isn't as bad, and I didn't look much into it so maybe there's stuff I don't know that lessens the negative, but seeing it being Apple specific doesn't make me feel so good.
d35007 5y ago
What makes you think governments aren't involved? The article says: > Apple’s mobile ID implementation supports the ISO 18013-5 mDL (mobile driver’s license) standard which Apple has played an active role in the development of If you do a little casual googling, you will find references to the Australian government being involved in the development of that standard. You can also find proposals from the US Department of Homeland Security that refer to the standard. Speaking of Google, Wikipedia says > For example, Android's JetPack suite comes with specific support for ISO 18013–5 from version API 24. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_license Does that qualify as device agnostic?

pdkl95 5y ago

What happens when the traditional "analog" alternative is no longer commonly used? Digital, network dependent "upgrades" to traditional protocols and infrastructure are obviously convenient, but what happens when the network fails? When carrying "old style" ID becomes inconvenient and "unnecessary", do entire classes of services simply shut down if the network fails, suffers some sort of DOS attack (or overloaded OCSP server), or a terrorist (or unlucky backhoe) cuts an important fiber optic cable? Are services like a "digital wallet" useful? How are they harmful? These questions are, of course, very important and need to be carefully investigated. However, whenever this type of technological convenience is introduced that might de facto replace existing protocols or infrastructure people currently rely upon, I rarely see any discussion of the ramifications of introducing technological interdependence and the resulting transitive risk. Dan Geer, on this topic[1]: >> The root source of risk is dependence, especially dependence on the expectation of stable system state. Dependence is not only individual but mutual, not only am I dependent or not but rather a continuous scale asking whether we are dependent or not; we are, and it is called interdependence. Interdependence is transitive, hence the risk that flows from interdependence is transitive, i.e., if you depend on the digital world and I depend on you, then I, too, am at risk from failures in the digital world. If individual dependencies were only static, they would be eventually evaluable, but we regularly and quickly expand our dependence on new things, and that added dependence matters because we each and severally add risk to our portfolio by way of dependence on things for which their very newness confounds risk estimation and thus risk management. [...] Remember, something becomes "a critical infrastructure" as soon as it is widely enough adopted; adoption is the gateway drug to criticality. >> The most telling fork in the road of them all is whether we retain an ability to operate our world, or at least the parts we would call critical, by analog means. Analog means, and only analog means, do not share a common mode failure with the digital world at large. But to preserve analog means requires that they be used, not left to gather dust on some societal shelf in the hope than when they are needed they will work. This requires a base load, a body of use and users that keep the analog working. [...] >> What we have here is an historic anomaly, an anomaly where the most readily available counter to an otherwise inexorable drift into a vortex of singleton technology risk and the preservation of a spectrum of non-trivial civil rights is one and the same counter: the guarantee, by force of law where necessary, that those who choose to not participate in the digital melange can nevertheless fully enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that to opt out of the digital vortex does not thereby require that they live in medieval conditions, and, by doing so, we reap a national security benefit in the bargain as those opting out are the base load for the analog alternative. [...] >> And that is what I am here to tell you, that the future of humanity and cybersecurity are conjoined, so that as we prepare to make some decisions that are of the fork-in-the-road sort, we need to think it through because in making decisions about cybersecurity we are choosing amongst possible futures for humanity. Those decisions will be expensive to later reverse in either dollars or clock-ticks. >> The onrushing world of full personalization means the rational decision for the individual or the small entity does not and will not aggregate into the rational decision for society at large. Perhaps that is the core effect from a rate of change up with which we cannot keep. [...] >> You, we, are the masters of the universe now. What will we do with that power, which we have but a short while more? [1] video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbDEbfijxNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbDEbfijxNY text: http://geer.tinho.net/geer.ncc.8x18.txt http://geer.tinho.net/geer.ncc.8x18.txt

nbzso 5y ago

Digital ID for everyone, here we go. Globally, right? Not for me do. Until there is no other option than this, I will refuse it. If I am lucky I have 30-40 something years ahead of me, more is a bonus territory. So I intend to live as a human being, not some database record "because of digitalization". If this means not to have smartphone or using computers in local networks, so be it. Big F--- you for corporations and governments of the world for collaborating behind the scenes to move us to Minority Report reality. Apple the global leader in surveillance and government control. Who would guess? What is the new slogan Apple: You are living it wrong?

codyswann 5y ago
I'm so excited for this. It's the end of my physical wallet. Is there something concrete you're worried about or is it you just don't like giving big brother too much of your info?
- foepys 5y ago
  > Is there something concrete you're worried about A dead battery and a virus on my phone stealing all of my data, identity, and then time to get it straightened out again.
  - codyswann 5y ago
    I lose my wallet (3 times) far more often than I get a virus on my phone (never). And I forget my wallet (all the time) more often than my phone dies without a charger (maybe once every six months)
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  I'm not grandparent poster, but depending on who supplies and configures the ID reader, a digital system makes it easier to track people. E.g. if you show your ID at a liquor store, currently the cashier would just check your age and then forget about you. If s/he has a barcode scanner or an Apple ID scanner, then that scanner can log your visits. And your whereabouts can be tracked by following where your ID was scanned throughtout time. In China, ID cards have RFID and they have to be scanned when entering a train station or airports (or the old town of Lhasa in Tibet), so a future government here might abuse a similar system to track you and maybe harass you by saying "You were in this area yesterday, there was $SOME_BAD_EVENT, what's your alibi?". China also implements long distance travel bans by refusing you entry to the train station/airport, e.g. if you have a bad "social score", which, I imagine would be ripe for abuse in a Trumpian regime. (Although the FBI already abused the no-fly list for the purposes of harassing individuals)

rowanG077 5y ago

I don't know. I really don't like big companies forcing themselves into this. There are already great open source solution ready to be used like IRMA[1], I would love for them to be used instead of Apple or Google becoming even more indispensable. [1] https://github.com/privacybydesign/irmago https://github.com/privacybydesign/irmago

jrochkind1 5y ago

How long until those without a version on their phone have to wait in a different slower longer line at TSA?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
Being able to pay to bypass TSA or cut the line for TSA has always been a thing. Private jets, Precheck, and this monstrosity where you pay a private company to become a more equal member of US society: https://www.clearme.com/support/tsa-precheck/how-does-clear-work-with-tsa-precheck/ https://www.clearme.com/support/tsa-precheck/how-does-clear-...
- lozaning 5y ago
  Through my American Express card I could get Clear paid for, and I still refuse to do it because I think the business model is just that scummy.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  I'm not sure it's ALWAYS been a thing, or at least it's scale has definitely grown more recently, but, yeah, that's why I thought of it being extended to 'those with e-wallets', of course. I do won't do any of that "clear" or even "pre-check" stuff just on principle; most everyone I know thinks I'm crazy. I try to fly as little as I can these days, even before pandemic, it's just so unpleasant both in terms of security/dignity as well as physical comfort.
shadowtree 5y ago
TSA-PreCheck, Global Entry and Clear all already exist. https://www.clearme.com/ https://www.clearme.com/
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Right. Which is why I'm wondering how long until those without IDs in an "e-wallet" get penalized too.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Seems like this would work best in places with free high-speed public wifi and device charging infrastructure. Do those places exist? Western Europe, East Asia? As with the rest of Apple Wallet/Pay offerings, turning analog into digital has its trade-offs.

ec109685 5y ago
It’s all stored locally on the device, so no Wifi needed.

josh_today 5y ago

We should start thinking about how to ensure that physical IDs will always be available Or Create a user controlled devices to store critical documentation like this (something like a crypto wallet but with an easier setup/interface)

walterbell 5y ago
Something like Bunnie Huang's Precursor? https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor > customers can present their driver’s license or state ID to the TSA by simply tapping their iPhone or Apple Watch at the identity reader. That sounds like NFC, which could be a feature request for Precursor v2.
ksec 5y ago
>We should start thinking about how to ensure that physical IDs will always be available Same the reason why I am extremely against getting rid of physcial money. >Create a user controlled devices to store critical documentation like this (something like a crypto wallet but with an easier setup/interface) Yes. This. One point in time you would have thought having everything on your Smartphone, everything simple was utopia. But reality is we need better power structure and separation of concerns. Or in reality I lost trust with Apple.
photojosh 5y ago
Digital IDs should always be in addition to physical IDs, even if you just leave the latter at home most of the time. My philosophy if buying a "smart" device is that they must "fail dumb"... I won't buy a smart lock that doesn't use a key as backup, for instance.

i386 5y ago

Can someone edit this to be “first US states” please. US centrism is so rude.

vages 5y ago
The HN policy is to repeat the headline without any changes. You will have to contact Apple about it, as the original headline omits US as well.
isitdopamine 5y ago
> US centrism is so rude. Are you sure rude is the right term? Usually you would define rude something deliberate. As annoying as it might be, this is not deliberate.
- i386 5y ago
  Yeah it’s rude.
  - isitdopamine 5y ago
    I don’t see how something not deliberate can be rude, to be honest… The fact that someone is offended doesn’t make it rude. People get offended for pretty much everything these days, yet not everything is rude!

amelius 5y ago

So after Facebook and others, Apple now requires a real name too?

jostmey 5y ago

There is going to be a rough transition. Suppose I live in Oklahoma, which accepts driver's licenses in Apply Wallet. So I leave my physical driver's license at home. Later my friend in Texas calls, so I cross state lines and the police pull me over. Now I don't have a license the police will accept?

ArchOversight 5y ago
Why wouldn't the police accept a legal document that is valid for the state you received your drivers license in? Police in Texas also will happily accept a drivers license from out of the country in whatever form that happens to be. Same way I can travel around Europe with my US drivers license...
caterama 5y ago
A valid license is a valid license? Whether or not rural cops are aware is a different issue. I'm also curious how it will work to hand over "license and registration" info. Traditionally, you give them your physical license, they might go back to their vehicle with it, and come back after several minutes. No way I'm giving them my phone! Until the technology is ubiquitous, people will have to carry the physical copy like normal. If it becomes ubiquitous, it should become ubiquitous in tandem with something like a handheld scanner the police brings to your window. Will it ever completely replace the physical copy? I doubt it... Apple Pay has been out for 6 years now and not all point of sale terminals accept it. It's hard to know beforehand which places accept. Not to mention that phones run out of battery and can get misplaced. Redundancy is good.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nbzso 5y ago

The disturbing thing is that instead of breaking monopolistic behemoths who are feeding their empires from our data, governments are offloading more power to them. If some form of Digital ID is required it must be done on government level with proper public oversight and always available analogue procedures and backup. But this is convenient, you say. What is this? Because you have a digital gizmo, knowing all about you, you cannot comprehend the magnitude of situation? You trust a private corporation more than actual laws and government procedures and you feel right and cool? You have nothing to hide and everyone is having your data anyway? The Minority Report version of the future is building in front of you and you don't care, because is convenient? Are you not informed? Are you technically uneducated? Or are you blind? CCP Social rating is working in China. In the next two years will work globally, under different "democratic" branding. What is a logical response? The logical response is simple. It is time to balance convenience with privacy and some form of "realistic" view of the world. This corporate power will be abused. The question is how soon.

cookiengineer 5y ago
A corporation like Apple has by definition a conflicting view on upholding the law. They have financial interests, and putting someone with that in charge of identity (and therefore all freedom rights) is the definition of as corruptable as possible. Apple cannot be trusted as long as they even don't give a damn on paying taxes. They only give a damn about the law when it fits their financial agenda.
littleweep 5y ago
You present problems. What are the solutions in your view?
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  Paper? Or at least working toward open source, which is what an actually transparent government should run with.
- nbzso 5y ago
  Solutions must be created publicly with active participation of experts from different domains. Regulations and laws must be defined with expertise and care for the future of humanity, with proper protection of privacy and existing legislative frameworks. There are proven principles that define our world. The tech overlords are playing gods at the moment, and the minions are following the lead. Solutions arise when expertise is manifested trough political and public action. Bed time stories about convenience and trust are for kids. Grown-up humans are using history as a reference to protect the future and work actively towards balanced implementation. One logical tech solution is everything that is of critical importance to be open-sourced and scrutinized on a regular basis. The other is to regulate big tech and create a line that cannot be crossed. What is Apple anyway? Entertainment company? Utility company? Automotive company? Digital services company? Now they are police and government? Whats going on actually?

petarb 5y ago

Why’s California not on the list, sigh…

Animats 5y ago

If you violate the Apple terms of service, are you still allowed to drive?

SergeAx 5y ago

I am from outside of US and don't grok all the nuance of US laws. What is the difference between having my driver license in Apple wallet and having a digital photo of it in my phone?

dkonofalski 5y ago
Certification, basically. There's nothing that validates that the image is authentic if it's just a picture. Having it in Apple Wallet validates that it's a certified ID. AZ, for example, is one of the states going first because they already have a Digital ID. From what I understand, the digital version shows the same info as the ID but has an animated certification banner that can be interacted with to verify that it's a legitimate ID.
- SergeAx 5y ago
  Thank you for reply, it's getting clearer now. Still don't understand what exactly is being certified here. Does Apple wallet somehow communicates with government database and verifies the ID, and then protects it against spoofing with some kind of government-approved cryptography?

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

suddenly the surveillance infrastructure Apple enabled under the guise of CSAM is making sense.

randomcharhere 5y ago

So when your iphone gets hacked they have every thing they need in a nice neat package to make your life hell. The more valuable you make the phone the more likely bad actors are to go after it ... I can only see bad things from this.