5 ms·

Tesla on part-automated drive system slams into police car

40 points by Shank 5y ago

butwhywhyoh 5y ago
No need to fear everyone: I'm sure Tesla will let us all know shortly that it was the drivers fault. And the cop probably could have pulled over more safely, too. Nothing to see here.
- jeofken 5y ago
  How frequent is this compared to when humans only control the vehicle?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    This is the right question to ask, but it’s less sensational.
    - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
      There are roughly 40 - 50 fatalities for folks working on side of road a year? "The tow truck driver was loading the vehicle onto the truck when he was struck by 23-year-old Michelle F. Parker, who was driving a Dodge Journey through the closed portion of Debarr Road at 3:07 a.m., police wrote. The tow truck driver was brought to the hospital, where police said he died. No one else was injured and police said the tow truck driver would be identified once his family has been notified. Parker was arrested and is facing charges of manslaughter, driving under the influence and driving in violation of license limitation." gives an example. More here: https://www.respondersafety.com/news/struck-by-incidents/yearly-fatality-reports/ https://www.respondersafety.com/news/struck-by-incidents/yea... Not sure how many of these are tesla's.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      This is not the right question to ask because it's an apples to oranges comparison for many, but most importantly two reasons. 1. Automated driving right now happens in a tiny fraction of environments that are self-selected to be safe, if you were to put as many automated as real cars into absolutely the same environment as real cars the rate of incidents would obviously be substantially higher 2. automated errors are correlated. One bug in the model likely extends to every self-driving car in the same situation. Inherent reason why you cannot trivially compare the dangers of automated systems to people.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        1. You need data about self-driving cars in all conditions. This doesn’t mean that “error rate of self-driving vs error rate of human drivers” is the wrong comparison. 2. This is irrelevant. What matters is the error frequency and severity. Correlations will increase frequency, but if that frequency and severity is lower than that of human drivers, it’s still a win.
        Barrin92 5y ago
        it's not irrelevant because the number of cars on the road is so low. If we had tens of millions instead of a few hundred or thousand of these on the road, and you roll out an update that makes the car drive over small kids in green t-shirts then you have a big problem in a very short time. Correlated error is a big problem when combined with tail risk, which you simply cannot see right now due to how limited the use of the technology is.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Error rates account for these concerns. Error rate isn’t “the total number of errors”, it’s “errors per mile driven by all self-driving cars” (hence “rate”). Yes, an update might spike the number of errors, but as long as the error rate (accounting for severity) remains lower than for human drivers it’s still a net benefit. And moreover, no one is going to release an update to every car at once.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  yeah the autopilot disengaged 0.000001 ms before impact. so it’s the drivers fault
diebeforei485 5y ago
This has happened a few times before. Why does Autopilot not detect parked patrol vehicles? Are other parked vehicles also being hit?
- light_hue_1 5y ago
  Because the Tesla object detector is too unreliable and fires too often for parked vehicles that aren't there. So they tune it to have more false negatives (to miss objects) because most of the time you're passing by a row of parked vehicles and nothing is sticking out. It's a sign of just how bad and dangerous the Tesla autopilot really is. It should never be on the road. Dozens of people have been murdered by it. The engineers involved should all be in jail.
  - diebeforei485 5y ago
    I don't think this is the case. We aren't seeing as many stories around regular parked vehicles being it, it seems to be mostly patrol vehicles.
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      patrol vehicles are the ones stopped on the road partially blocking the lane, so, what's the opposite of survivorship bias?
  - s5300 5y ago
    Tens of thousands of people have been murdered by bad drivers. The entirety of the DMV should be in jail.
  - minhazm 5y ago
    There have been a total of 9 Autopilot deaths since the system was introduced in 2015. That's with 1 million+ cars on the road with Autopilot and billions of miles. 9 is a very small number. And in pretty much every case the driver was found to be at fault.
    - 5y ago
longcommonname 5y ago
Here come the tesla fans quoting stats about how safe tesla is. I don't care how safe it is, its nowhere near as safe or reliable as the sales and marketing are pushing. I wish it was criminal how misleading tesla has been regarding reliability, and regarding how close they are to full self driving.
- lumost 5y ago
  I do wonder if the FTC will open a probe into Tesla's self-driving claims. I'd be willing to believe that part of the sky high TSLA stock price is a mistaken belief that Tesla is actually close to self-driving.
- rictic 5y ago
  > I don't care how safe it is I guess it's polite to point out when you're unwilling to change your mind based on evidence, but that's a hell of a take.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  you mean their 720p potato camera alone with their undergrad level ml algos haven’t achieved full self driving? that’s impossible! otherwise they wouldn’t charge 10k for it. elon belongs in jail
- void_mint 5y ago
  > Here come the tesla fans quoting stats about how safe tesla is. I'm not a Tesla fan. How many accidents have been caused by automated drive systems and how do their failure rates compare to normal human-driven accident rates?
  - sremani 5y ago
    for better or worse the risk of 'random' luck the system failed means Tesla stats should be 10x or better than human driver. A marginal improvement is not going to cut it.
    - void_mint 5y ago
jiggawatts 5y ago
This is a well-known issue with the current publicly available version of the Tesla auto-pilot: it largely ignores stationary objects that partially obstruct the lane. The next version, currently in closed beta, is supposedly better at tracking parked cars and obstructions. However, from what I've seen from dashcam videos by beta testers, it's still quite bad. Vehicles "pop" in and out of the AI's perception regularly. Not as bad as before, but still quite scary.
- poutine 5y ago
  Not just a problem with Tesla. My Audi SQ5 with the 'Advanced Drivers Assitance Pack' will happily drive in to a stationary car in front of me. It's a problem with radars, they don't detect stationary objects well.
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    It's not that it doesn't detect them, it's that all lane-following systems are programmed to ignore them, because the radar doesn't have the resolution to distinguish between objects in the lane and objects outside the lane, such as trees or bridges. It's why Tesla is moving towards an optical based system, and why Waymo uses lidar.
- valine 5y ago
  The vehicles popping in and out was improved pretty dramatically in fsd beta 9. Seems unfair not to mention that so I’m guessing you were unaware.
  - sidibe 5y ago
    FSD beta 9 which 1) you have to pay 10k for and 2) only a few dozen people are eligible for. Seems like if this is a real problem they should fix in the product that everyone has or stop people from using it
    - valine 5y ago
      You want them to push out untested, safety critical code to the general population? Don’t think it works that way.

40 points by Shank 5y ago

No need to fear everyone: I'm sure Tesla will let us all know shortly that it was the drivers fault. And the cop probably could have pulled over more safely, too. Nothing to see here.

jeofken 5y ago
How frequent is this compared to when humans only control the vehicle?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  This is the right question to ask, but it’s less sensational.
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    There are roughly 40 - 50 fatalities for folks working on side of road a year? "The tow truck driver was loading the vehicle onto the truck when he was struck by 23-year-old Michelle F. Parker, who was driving a Dodge Journey through the closed portion of Debarr Road at 3:07 a.m., police wrote. The tow truck driver was brought to the hospital, where police said he died. No one else was injured and police said the tow truck driver would be identified once his family has been notified. Parker was arrested and is facing charges of manslaughter, driving under the influence and driving in violation of license limitation." gives an example. More here: https://www.respondersafety.com/news/struck-by-incidents/yearly-fatality-reports/ https://www.respondersafety.com/news/struck-by-incidents/yea... Not sure how many of these are tesla's.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    This is not the right question to ask because it's an apples to oranges comparison for many, but most importantly two reasons. 1. Automated driving right now happens in a tiny fraction of environments that are self-selected to be safe, if you were to put as many automated as real cars into absolutely the same environment as real cars the rate of incidents would obviously be substantially higher 2. automated errors are correlated. One bug in the model likely extends to every self-driving car in the same situation. Inherent reason why you cannot trivially compare the dangers of automated systems to people.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      1. You need data about self-driving cars in all conditions. This doesn’t mean that “error rate of self-driving vs error rate of human drivers” is the wrong comparison. 2. This is irrelevant. What matters is the error frequency and severity. Correlations will increase frequency, but if that frequency and severity is lower than that of human drivers, it’s still a win.
      - Barrin92 5y ago
        it's not irrelevant because the number of cars on the road is so low. If we had tens of millions instead of a few hundred or thousand of these on the road, and you roll out an update that makes the car drive over small kids in green t-shirts then you have a big problem in a very short time. Correlated error is a big problem when combined with tail risk, which you simply cannot see right now due to how limited the use of the technology is.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Error rates account for these concerns. Error rate isn’t “the total number of errors”, it’s “errors per mile driven by all self-driving cars” (hence “rate”). Yes, an update might spike the number of errors, but as long as the error rate (accounting for severity) remains lower than for human drivers it’s still a net benefit. And moreover, no one is going to release an update to every car at once.
ffggvv 5y ago
yeah the autopilot disengaged 0.000001 ms before impact. so it’s the drivers fault

diebeforei485 5y ago

This has happened a few times before. Why does Autopilot not detect parked patrol vehicles? Are other parked vehicles also being hit?

light_hue_1 5y ago
Because the Tesla object detector is too unreliable and fires too often for parked vehicles that aren't there. So they tune it to have more false negatives (to miss objects) because most of the time you're passing by a row of parked vehicles and nothing is sticking out. It's a sign of just how bad and dangerous the Tesla autopilot really is. It should never be on the road. Dozens of people have been murdered by it. The engineers involved should all be in jail.
- diebeforei485 5y ago
  I don't think this is the case. We aren't seeing as many stories around regular parked vehicles being it, it seems to be mostly patrol vehicles.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    patrol vehicles are the ones stopped on the road partially blocking the lane, so, what's the opposite of survivorship bias?
- s5300 5y ago
  Tens of thousands of people have been murdered by bad drivers. The entirety of the DMV should be in jail.
- minhazm 5y ago
  There have been a total of 9 Autopilot deaths since the system was introduced in 2015. That's with 1 million+ cars on the road with Autopilot and billions of miles. 9 is a very small number. And in pretty much every case the driver was found to be at fault.
  - 5y ago

longcommonname 5y ago

Here come the tesla fans quoting stats about how safe tesla is. I don't care how safe it is, its nowhere near as safe or reliable as the sales and marketing are pushing. I wish it was criminal how misleading tesla has been regarding reliability, and regarding how close they are to full self driving.

lumost 5y ago
I do wonder if the FTC will open a probe into Tesla's self-driving claims. I'd be willing to believe that part of the sky high TSLA stock price is a mistaken belief that Tesla is actually close to self-driving.
rictic 5y ago
> I don't care how safe it is I guess it's polite to point out when you're unwilling to change your mind based on evidence, but that's a hell of a take.
ffggvv 5y ago
you mean their 720p potato camera alone with their undergrad level ml algos haven’t achieved full self driving? that’s impossible! otherwise they wouldn’t charge 10k for it. elon belongs in jail
void_mint 5y ago
> Here come the tesla fans quoting stats about how safe tesla is. I'm not a Tesla fan. How many accidents have been caused by automated drive systems and how do their failure rates compare to normal human-driven accident rates?
- sremani 5y ago
  for better or worse the risk of 'random' luck the system failed means Tesla stats should be 10x or better than human driver. A marginal improvement is not going to cut it.
  - void_mint 5y ago

jiggawatts 5y ago

This is a well-known issue with the current publicly available version of the Tesla auto-pilot: it largely ignores stationary objects that partially obstruct the lane. The next version, currently in closed beta, is supposedly better at tracking parked cars and obstructions. However, from what I've seen from dashcam videos by beta testers, it's still quite bad. Vehicles "pop" in and out of the AI's perception regularly. Not as bad as before, but still quite scary.

poutine 5y ago
Not just a problem with Tesla. My Audi SQ5 with the 'Advanced Drivers Assitance Pack' will happily drive in to a stationary car in front of me. It's a problem with radars, they don't detect stationary objects well.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  It's not that it doesn't detect them, it's that all lane-following systems are programmed to ignore them, because the radar doesn't have the resolution to distinguish between objects in the lane and objects outside the lane, such as trees or bridges. It's why Tesla is moving towards an optical based system, and why Waymo uses lidar.
valine 5y ago
The vehicles popping in and out was improved pretty dramatically in fsd beta 9. Seems unfair not to mention that so I’m guessing you were unaware.
- sidibe 5y ago
  FSD beta 9 which 1) you have to pay 10k for and 2) only a few dozen people are eligible for. Seems like if this is a real problem they should fix in the product that everyone has or stop people from using it
  - valine 5y ago
    You want them to push out untested, safety critical code to the general population? Don’t think it works that way.