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CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

230 points by drocer88 5y ago

justicezyx 5y ago
I'd like to read the detailed summary of CCP's policy and effects in Tibet. I was born and grew up in China's Shanxi province, got college degree in Shanghai and masters in Beijing, all in top universities; which means that I was subject to constant indoctrination and massaged (or even fabricated) information all the time. There has never been detailed political reports on sensitive issues like managing Tibet. But I guess we wont see such a report ever. Edit: The linked report: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/TheCPCItsMissionandContributions.docx http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/TheCPCItsMissionan... It's a general report on CPC's goals and achievements. Still browsing through it, but there is only one apperance of Tibet in the whole word (!...) doc: ``` Since its 18th National Congress, the CPC has faced challenges such as hegemony and unilateralism. It has seen blatant external interference in China’s internal affairs related to Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, Tibet Autonomous Region, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ```
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toss1 5y ago
  >>"...seen blatant external interference in China’s internal affairs related to Xinjiang..., Tibet..., Hong Kong...." Yup, classic disinformation method - just assume the conclusion and blame someone else. The reason that othet nations have something to say about it is that CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions. CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler. They're starting the same incrementalism over the 9-dashed-line, and even Taiwan. Just because a nation invades, forcibly relocates, 'reeducates', and culturally overwhelms and erased a people does not make them the legitimate ruler, nor does it make foreign nations working to support the remaining rightful owners "interfering in the internal affairs" (&yes, I see that this also applies to the USA over Native American rights). What was "interfering in internal affairs of another country" was CCP militarily overrunning Tibet, not the other way around.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    They know all they have to do is wait. The Western countries will tire and move on to something else. I was in physics graduate school in the ‘80s, when there was still activism in support of Tibet. I had a “Free Tibet” poster next to my desk. A graduate student arrived from China. I don’t remember how the conversation started, but I do remember him patiently trying to correct a group of other students, explaining that Tibet was part of China. It was as if someone had claimed that Nebraska was not really part of the US and we needed to support its freedom. Indoctrination is invisible to the successfully indoctrinated; it becomes reality.
    - toss1 5y ago
      Yes, of course that is the key element in their plan The sad part about it is that it tends to work, and the CCP does have both the malevolence and patience. And sadly, the rest of the world sees it in their short term interest to do business with that monstrous criminal gang masquerading as a government.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    *Let me shed some light on the CCP's propaganda, and explain a bit why your statements might meet a deaf ear.* I present this to showcase the rationale behind many pro-China netizens living in China (both ethnic Chinese and non-Chinese). Note that I could not give detailed references, because I am not a professional political scientists or historian, and I do not keep such records. Hopefully it opens a window for more directed Google search. > CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions. Legally, CCP inherent the rights of KMT, which inherent Qing Dynasty, who has sovereign rights in most conversational lands. The KMT inherentance from Qing, was sealed by certain legal documents following the contemporary international laws and conventions at the time. The KMT to CCP overturn is of course not legally sealed, but in general it's reasonable to assume the transition is legal from an international laws' perspective, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty (note that I did not read this concept deeply, I was just getting 2nd hand information elsewhere, so I could be wrong). > CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler. This would just be treated as "western propaganda". In CCP's theory framework, CCP is the servant of people (much like US police, and for that we all know how much truth is actually in the deeds). And for the vast majority of people, because CCP controls a significant portion of the national economy, and they can use those resources to provide social well fare to the poorest. So it's reasonable to claim that CCP practiced this ideology, and "CCP as people's servant" is quite well received. I would say it is about as popular as "democracy is good" in US. (Note that I did not claim one is more true than the other, it was just my observation of people's ideas). So with that framework, the statement intermediately falls apart. (And we can all assume that people don't investigate, they just consume propaganda. I think this statement is universal so far in human history). > They're starting the same incrementalism over the 9-dashed-line, and even Taiwan. These are all based on some historical evidences. Which at the time does not very well map into the modern cultural and political concepts. But again, China shaped east Asia's cultural and political heritage for more than 1000 years, you can see that there is some form of legitimacy in the mind of the people at the region. > Just because a nation invades, forcibly relocates, 'reeducates', and culturally overwhelms and erased a people does not make them the legitimate ruler, nor does it make foreign nations working to support the remaining rightful owners "interfering in the internal affairs" (&yes, I see that this also applies to the USA over Native American rights). Invasion was labeled liberation. If you look at the economy and production level of Tibet before CCP's invasion, certainly CCP have brought modern production means and built a much better economy in Tibet. As for how much was lost in the process, I don't see much. Tibetan still lives a quite traditional way. They certainly are not bothered by the CCP's presence. As obviously, to maintain CCP's ruling, Tibetan have been treated much better than the mass majority elsewhere. Even their lands were largely left for their own use, because immigrants from inland do not perform farming work, and mostly live in concentrated urban area. "forcibly relocates", AFAIK, rarely happened. I do know personally some Uygurs in my college where they were treated as "above law and order in the university" because they are minorities (they are usually left unmolested when involved in some fights between youngsters, for example). They never complained to me about relocation. But I have no Tibetan acquaintance. Of course, it could be that CCP have combined good treatment and harsh policy to silence such complaints. But I have not seen such evidence. And you can be sure that the mass majority would have no such evidence either. "culturally overwhelms", well, that certainly did not happen from what I can see... As I said before, Tibetan and Uygurs, and many other minorities still live their own ways. They certainly are affected. For example, they are like other peasant workers, need to leave their homeland to work in east and south region, and often get to live a different culture. But they are not losing their heritage when they retreat to their own domains. For this I have first-hand experience from my travelling in China. "erased a people", minorities, like in US, have their population growing faster than Han people. Minorities are not subject to the same harsh one child policy as Han people. For example, I was nearly died if not my mother escaped a forced abortion by fleeing from the city to the rural area in my home town. Such things were never practiced on minorities. Although, officially, CCP never had a forced abortion either, but you can see the acolytes exerting their own cleverness here... === The rest of statements are more vague and general statements. It usually were brushed off from the natural inclination towards China's national interests. Everyone, probably except Tibetans and Uygurs, knows that the national security would be in jeopardy if Tibet or Xinjiang becomes independent countries; and the situation also applies to 9-dashed lines and Taiwan.
- yorwba 5y ago
  The article seems to be mostly based on https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1232511.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1232511.shtml which is about the release of that report, but includes bits from other sources, including unnamed local officials in Tibet.
porlune 5y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20210826172342/https://www.tibetanreview.net/70th-party-anniversary-publication-calls-chinas-tibet-policy-a-template-for-other-ethnic-minority-regions/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210826172342/https://www.tibet...
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
https://freetibet.org/about/legal-status-tibet https://freetibet.org/about/legal-status-tibet Imagine being called a minority in a place you are the majority and have lived for centuries before occupation. https://www.britannica.com/place/Tibet/People https://www.britannica.com/place/Tibet/People "The population of the region is almost entirely Tibetan, with Han (Chinese), Hui (Chinese Muslims), Monba, Lhoba, and other minority nationalities. Thus, the majority of the people of Tibet have the same ethnic origin, have traditionally practiced the same religion, and speak the same language."
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  So, native Americans?
  - mesh 5y ago
    Native Americans represent 1.7% of the US population: https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/omh/browse.aspx?lvl=3&lvlid=62 https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/omh/browse.aspx?lvl=3&lvlid=6...
    - nohr 5y ago
      Are you this dense, or is this on purpose?
    - utunbu 5y ago
      Tibetan people represent 0.4% of the Chinese population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people
      - echelon 5y ago
        Tibet isn't China. They got Crimea'd in the "Peaceful Liberation of Tibet"
        antonzabirko 5y ago
throwawaysea 5y ago
Really sad to see Tibet under CCP control. It would be much preferable if the region were an autonomous province of India, with whom Tibet has cultural affinity. Note that the real Dalai Lama has had to live in exile for decades in India, while seeing his people get slowly indoctrinated by the Chinese government via various education programs and such (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama). The word people need to learn is “Sinicization”, which describes the programs that implement a slow takeover and indoctrination of an entire people - effectively a cultural genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
- 8note 5y ago
  Tibet is a threat to China, since it's where the rivers start. Tibet under India's control is a doomsday scenario for chinese sovereignty
  - contravariant 5y ago
    Seems a bit silly to worry about the water supply when both sides have nukes.
    - nlarion 5y ago
      yeah, just drink the enriched uranium.... ~_~
- beaunative 5y ago
  Only if by cultural affinity you meant a Caste system had Tibet had any similarity to India. Buddhism was wiped, or in your word cultrually-genocided, by Hinduism already in India. The only reason why India might be anywhere interested in hosting a Buddhism monk is to annoy China, and nothing else.
- allemagne 5y ago
  Obviously, Tibetans should be in charge of Tibet and decide for themselves.
neverywhere 5y ago
China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country. They do it via birth control and family separation so it happening slowly but it is still decreasing the population of non-Han ethnic groups in comparison to the Han ethnic group. When this was done elsewhere it was declared as the worst form of racism/ethnocide/genocide, but in China it is accepted standard practice. Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. But somehow China is getting away with this behaviour towards its ethnic minorities.
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  These arguments are not unknown in the discourse in western media, but it's always good to fact-check. Do you have any report or data on these at hand? I'd expect amnesty international for example to have complied info on such cases.
  - neverywhere 5y ago
    AP News article on birth suppression: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
    - uniqueuid 5y ago
      Thanks, this looks really well-researched! "an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. "
- colpabar 5y ago
  >Imagine if Israel You don't have to imagine. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-birth-control-1.5300291 https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-bir...
Gunax 5y ago
Genghis Khan was not a conqueror in his mind. Instead, the whole world's population was simply tresspassing on what was rightfully promised to him.
- beaunative 5y ago
  I'm sure that's what in the mind of Hitler/Romans/Crussaders as well.
  - swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
    It's easy to be motivated by plunder and prestige, back when it was possible.
    - curation 5y ago
      A main reason why so many in the West have taken part in the protests against China is ideological: Tibetan Buddhism, deftly spun by the Dalai Lama, is a major point of reference of the New Age hedonist spirituality which is becoming the predominant form of ideology today. Our fascination with Tibet makes it into a mythic place upon which we project our dreams. When people mourn the loss of the authentic Tibetan way of life, they don’t care about real Tibetans: they want Tibetans to be authentically spiritual on behalf of us so we can continue with our crazy consumerism.https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet
      - Animats 5y ago
        "Before 1950 Tibet was no Shangri-la, but a country of harsh feudalism, poverty (life expectancy was barely 30), corruption and civil wars (the last, between two monastic factions, was in 1948 when the Red Army was already knocking at the door). Fearing social unrest and disintegration, the ruling elite prohibited any development of industry, so all metal had to be imported from India." "It seems the Chinese Communists finally learned the lesson: what is the oppressive power of secret police, camps and Red Guards destroying ancient monuments, compared to the power of unbridled capitalism to undermine all traditional social relations?" China still struggles with integrating their minority populations. For the last half century, the CCP has been trying to convert the Cantonese-speaking regions to Mandarin, without much success.
tsjq 5y ago
Afghanistan next.
- cyberlurker 5y ago
  Good luck
- yourapostasy 5y ago
  China has actually been relatively disinterested investing into Afghanistan [1], even when the US had been footing the security umbrella. Now that any investments might need to also contend with a civil war re-erupting from before the US entered, the numbers to pencil out are even further out of grasp. Any investment into Afghanistan as a raw materials resource and/or 棲息地, Chinese Lebensraum, would have an ROI of quite a few decades. I don't see why they would economically rationally do that when the Belt and Road Initiative already will net them far more than "just" Afghanistan. [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investment-in-Afghanistan2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investme...
La1n 5y ago
I don't think this belongs on HN, can someone explain to me why this does, seeing as this is number one on the front page? This doesn't seem to stimulate good and curious discussion to me.
thinktankie 5y ago
A reminder of how great life was for Tibetans under the feudal, theocratic serfdom of the lamas [1]. [1] “In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. 15 The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land--or the monastery’s land--without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama.” … “ The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.20” … “There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off.” - http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  I agree that the romanticized view of the tibetan societal structure is often very naive. But, of course, this does not mean that a forced annexation and subjugation by china is the only way that reforms could be made, or in fact the best. There are many different ways of modernization, some totalitarian ones and more liberal ones. I guess it should be clear which are preferable.
beaunative 5y ago
Tibetan and Han shared same genetic roots, so does their language (collectively classified as Sino-Tibetan languages). Legendly, in the dawn of human memories, the ancestors of Tibetan lost a tribal war against the ancestors of Han in the east and migrated west to a less-inhabited / less-suitable area as a result.
- drocer88 5y ago
  FYI: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23291 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23291 Note the PCA plot: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/6f245ebd-af27-4633-98fe-d088f12a75d6/ajpa23291-fig-0002-m.png https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/6f245ebd-af27-4633...
  - beaunative 5y ago
    600~900 years ago is pre-modern, but it's well documented and hardly legend/mythical times. The PCA plot only note two genetic variations. You could easily find similar plot just between northern and southern Han. "Chinese was suggested to split away from Tibeto-Burman around 6 thousand years ago (kya) based on lexical evidence." This is consistent with the cliche of Chinese having 5000 years of history if we consider the formation of the Chinese language as a foundation for the nation. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41195 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41195
chana_masala 5y ago
Lots of seemingly unwarranted gray comments in this thread.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rl3 5y ago
  Expected. Threads like these turn into a wasteland of downvotes for a reason. China is a superpower. Superpowers have units dedicated to information warfare. Some of these units deal with controlling discourse and sentiment. HN is a fairly prominent public forum within the tech industry. China wants global influence, particular in the technology sector. It's reasonable to assume they probably have some fairly clever downvote rings here that are well hidden.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    Kinda sorta. The more reasonable explanation is they have an effective domestic propaganda apparatus to shape domestic atttudes and a large diaspora that's well represented in tech. It can take quite some time for those attitudes to mellow. Add to that Westerners of various stripes that get defensive when foreign imperialism is discussed. No need for some kind of government run downvote ring.
    - rl3 5y ago
      I think the more reasonable explanation is it's a combination of both. What I described is pretty much a standard, expected, and elementary capability of any intelligence apparatus in the modern world these days. It doesn't even veer into conspiracy-anything. There's documents that detail precisely how some of these units work, Western or otherwise. That said, if you're entirely correct, it's admittedly a very sad reality.
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        I know they have the capability, I'm just skeptical use it on HN. I would think they'd focus on places with more reach (e.g. Twitter, Facebook, maybe Reddit) and places were they could have more control (e.g. fake blogs, fake think tanks, websites that peddle conspiracy theories).
ilamont 5y ago
Tibetans live in many parts of China outside of Tibet, including southern Gansu and Qinghai (historically known as Amdo, see https://collab.its.virginia.edu/wiki/aboutthl/An%20Overview%20of%20Amdo%20%28Northeastern%20Tibet%29%20Historical%20Polities.html https://collab.its.virginia.edu/wiki/aboutthl/An%20Overview%...). Northern and western Sichuan province also had large populations of Tibetan people living in remote areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngawa_Tibetan_and_Qiang_Autonomous_Prefecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngawa_Tibetan_and_Qiang_Autono...), sometimes near temples such as Langmusi on the Sichuan/Gansu border. One trend that was taking place in western China when I last visited was out-migration of Han settlers from Sichuan and other more populous provinces to Xinjiang and other areas which were then dominated by ethnic minorities. This is taking place in Tibet as well: Han Chinese workers, investors, merchants, teachers and soldiers are pouring into remote Tibet. After the violence that ravaged this region in 2008, China’s aim is to make Tibet wealthier and more Chinese. Chinese leaders see development, along with an enhanced security presence, as the key to pacifying the Buddhist region. The central government invested $3 billion in the Tibet Autonomous Region last year, a 31 percent increase over 2008. Tibet’s gross domestic product is growing at a 12 percent annual rate, faster than the robust Chinese national average. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/asia/25tibet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/asia/25tibet.html
- cucumb3rrelish 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism) > Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf argued in the chapter "Eastern Orientation or Eastern Policy" that the Germans needed Lebensraum in the East and described it as a "historic destiny" which would properly nurture the future generations of Germans > [...] was to be carried out through a rapidly enforced process of Gleichschaltung (synchronization). The ultimate intent of this was to eradicate all traces of national rather than racial consciousness, although their native languages were to remain in existence > [...] After Germany had acquired her Lebensraum, she now needed to populate these lands according to Nazi ideology and racial principles
  - uniqueuid 5y ago
stardenburden 5y ago
So many bots in this thread, down voting everything that is anti china - be it true or false. Very curious to see that not even HN is safe from them.
- belval 5y ago
  > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. FWIW I would encourage you to use the above email as a lot of comments do seem greyed out for no reason.
- optimalsolver 5y ago
  Does it ever occur to you that someone can not want to jump on the "China bad!" train and not be a bot?
  - throwaway98211 5y ago
    Absolutely -- there seems to be tons of real people very eager to equate criticism of the CCP to 'China bad!' and this is part of the problem. The CCP (like all major governments in history) has / is / will do things that are worthy of pushback and scrutiny. Please stop cheapening the debate by attempting to reframe critique of a major government's policies as nationalistic prejudice.
  - emkoemko 5y ago
    how can anyone consider west Taiwan government as "Good"... we should ways fight against evil governments and companies that defend them just to have access to slave labour. American companies fighting the US government not to ban slave labour...NIKE
  - 9999px 5y ago
    Americans are gone. Anti-China sentiment is at a boiling point and I really no longer see objective reporting or discussions. It's infuriating that the US is able to manufacture consent so efficiently.
curation 5y ago
It seems the Chinese Communists finally learned the lesson: what is the oppressive power of secret police, camps and Red Guards destroying ancient monuments, compared to the power of unbridled capitalism to undermine all traditional social relations? The Chinese are doing what the West has always done, as Brazil did in the Amazon or Russia in Siberia, and the US on its own western frontiers. (Tibet: dream and reality https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet )
mapgrep 5y ago
This has already happened. Chen Quanguo was party secretary in Tibet during a major crackdown there and in 2016 transferred to be party secretary of Xinjiang where he led a very similar campaign of severe repression. He remains party secretary there. You can read about this any number of places including https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...
tomohawk 5y ago
They've already used it as a policy template in East Turkistan. The same guy who pacified Tibet is the same guy who has put millions in concentration camps in East Turkistan. Uighurs who have fled from there to Afghanistan are not happy with recent developments https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/afghanistan-uyghurs-08242021175318.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/afghanistan-uyghurs-...
dirtyid 5y ago
Rapid sinicization efforts in Tibet & XJ will probably be wildly "successful". There is increasing demand for models that can rapidly integrate minorities globally. The Tibet template will be emulated, but _poorly_ around the world. Emphasis on "poorly", the cost of propping up of restive regions and TINY* minorities with massive infrastructure, a variety of subsidies to artificially inflate GDP and drive up living standards and quell dissent with combination of political works and ubiquitous surveillance is not one that can be replicated or sustained by most interested parties. Most will stop at ubiquitous surveillance state, with technology likely sourced from PRC vendors who already use XJ/Tibet as advertising campaigns. It's also going to make west model look foolish in 15 years when new integrated generations in Tibet / XJ live fairly normal lives in well developed cities. I don't imagine minorities right in the west will make substantial headway despite all the free speech discussions. The gulf between performance vs performative systems is becoming increasingly self-evident. [*] Very few countries are as homogenized as PRC with only 8% minorities, of which realistically less than 1% will be subject to heavy sinicization efforts. Diverting disproportionate national resources to integrate restive frontier regions is not prohibitive at PRC scale. This model simply doesn't work for countries with 10/20/30+% minorities that must all be integrated simultaneously. So ironically it will work best in increasingly nativist wealthy countries that rely on managable amounts of immigration.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Kidnap their future leaders and replace with CCP appointee? (This actually happened in Tibet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy)
o0-0o 5y ago
Free Tibet. Beastie Boys - shambala / bodhisattva vow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50OHxCnooQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50OHxCnooQs
PicassoCTs 5y ago
Imperialism with chinese characteristics. And they have "integrated" so many into this Han-Ethno-state by force. Some are barely visible by now. The Cantonese, the Mongol-Northeners, the Koreans, the uighurs and by now the HongKongers. Always remember the backlash though, when the empires power fails and falters. This can reach genocidal levels of backlash against the ex-overlords. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/186810341303200304 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/186810341303200... Some of the neighboring countries have outright traditions of defending against the neighboring empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War Just because this imperialism does not exist in the western left, its none the less just as real.

230 points by drocer88 5y ago

I'd like to read the detailed summary of CCP's policy and effects in Tibet. I was born and grew up in China's Shanxi province, got college degree in Shanghai and masters in Beijing, all in top universities; which means that I was subject to constant indoctrination and massaged (or even fabricated) information all the time. There has never been detailed political reports on sensitive issues like managing Tibet. But I guess we wont see such a report ever. Edit: The linked report: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/TheCPCItsMissionandContributions.docx http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/TheCPCItsMissionan... It's a general report on CPC's goals and achievements. Still browsing through it, but there is only one apperance of Tibet in the whole word (!...) doc: ``` Since its 18th National Congress, the CPC has faced challenges such as hegemony and unilateralism. It has seen blatant external interference in China’s internal affairs related to Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, Tibet Autonomous Region, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region ```

deleted 5y ago
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toss1 5y ago
>>"...seen blatant external interference in China’s internal affairs related to Xinjiang..., Tibet..., Hong Kong...." Yup, classic disinformation method - just assume the conclusion and blame someone else. The reason that othet nations have something to say about it is that CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions. CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler. They're starting the same incrementalism over the 9-dashed-line, and even Taiwan. Just because a nation invades, forcibly relocates, 'reeducates', and culturally overwhelms and erased a people does not make them the legitimate ruler, nor does it make foreign nations working to support the remaining rightful owners "interfering in the internal affairs" (&yes, I see that this also applies to the USA over Native American rights). What was "interfering in internal affairs of another country" was CCP militarily overrunning Tibet, not the other way around.
- leephillips 5y ago
  They know all they have to do is wait. The Western countries will tire and move on to something else. I was in physics graduate school in the ‘80s, when there was still activism in support of Tibet. I had a “Free Tibet” poster next to my desk. A graduate student arrived from China. I don’t remember how the conversation started, but I do remember him patiently trying to correct a group of other students, explaining that Tibet was part of China. It was as if someone had claimed that Nebraska was not really part of the US and we needed to support its freedom. Indoctrination is invisible to the successfully indoctrinated; it becomes reality.
  - toss1 5y ago
    Yes, of course that is the key element in their plan The sad part about it is that it tends to work, and the CCP does have both the malevolence and patience. And sadly, the rest of the world sees it in their short term interest to do business with that monstrous criminal gang masquerading as a government.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  *Let me shed some light on the CCP's propaganda, and explain a bit why your statements might meet a deaf ear.* I present this to showcase the rationale behind many pro-China netizens living in China (both ethnic Chinese and non-Chinese). Note that I could not give detailed references, because I am not a professional political scientists or historian, and I do not keep such records. Hopefully it opens a window for more directed Google search. > CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions. Legally, CCP inherent the rights of KMT, which inherent Qing Dynasty, who has sovereign rights in most conversational lands. The KMT inherentance from Qing, was sealed by certain legal documents following the contemporary international laws and conventions at the time. The KMT to CCP overturn is of course not legally sealed, but in general it's reasonable to assume the transition is legal from an international laws' perspective, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty (note that I did not read this concept deeply, I was just getting 2nd hand information elsewhere, so I could be wrong). > CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler. This would just be treated as "western propaganda". In CCP's theory framework, CCP is the servant of people (much like US police, and for that we all know how much truth is actually in the deeds). And for the vast majority of people, because CCP controls a significant portion of the national economy, and they can use those resources to provide social well fare to the poorest. So it's reasonable to claim that CCP practiced this ideology, and "CCP as people's servant" is quite well received. I would say it is about as popular as "democracy is good" in US. (Note that I did not claim one is more true than the other, it was just my observation of people's ideas). So with that framework, the statement intermediately falls apart. (And we can all assume that people don't investigate, they just consume propaganda. I think this statement is universal so far in human history). > They're starting the same incrementalism over the 9-dashed-line, and even Taiwan. These are all based on some historical evidences. Which at the time does not very well map into the modern cultural and political concepts. But again, China shaped east Asia's cultural and political heritage for more than 1000 years, you can see that there is some form of legitimacy in the mind of the people at the region. > Just because a nation invades, forcibly relocates, 'reeducates', and culturally overwhelms and erased a people does not make them the legitimate ruler, nor does it make foreign nations working to support the remaining rightful owners "interfering in the internal affairs" (&yes, I see that this also applies to the USA over Native American rights). Invasion was labeled liberation. If you look at the economy and production level of Tibet before CCP's invasion, certainly CCP have brought modern production means and built a much better economy in Tibet. As for how much was lost in the process, I don't see much. Tibetan still lives a quite traditional way. They certainly are not bothered by the CCP's presence. As obviously, to maintain CCP's ruling, Tibetan have been treated much better than the mass majority elsewhere. Even their lands were largely left for their own use, because immigrants from inland do not perform farming work, and mostly live in concentrated urban area. "forcibly relocates", AFAIK, rarely happened. I do know personally some Uygurs in my college where they were treated as "above law and order in the university" because they are minorities (they are usually left unmolested when involved in some fights between youngsters, for example). They never complained to me about relocation. But I have no Tibetan acquaintance. Of course, it could be that CCP have combined good treatment and harsh policy to silence such complaints. But I have not seen such evidence. And you can be sure that the mass majority would have no such evidence either. "culturally overwhelms", well, that certainly did not happen from what I can see... As I said before, Tibetan and Uygurs, and many other minorities still live their own ways. They certainly are affected. For example, they are like other peasant workers, need to leave their homeland to work in east and south region, and often get to live a different culture. But they are not losing their heritage when they retreat to their own domains. For this I have first-hand experience from my travelling in China. "erased a people", minorities, like in US, have their population growing faster than Han people. Minorities are not subject to the same harsh one child policy as Han people. For example, I was nearly died if not my mother escaped a forced abortion by fleeing from the city to the rural area in my home town. Such things were never practiced on minorities. Although, officially, CCP never had a forced abortion either, but you can see the acolytes exerting their own cleverness here... === The rest of statements are more vague and general statements. It usually were brushed off from the natural inclination towards China's national interests. Everyone, probably except Tibetans and Uygurs, knows that the national security would be in jeopardy if Tibet or Xinjiang becomes independent countries; and the situation also applies to 9-dashed lines and Taiwan.
yorwba 5y ago
The article seems to be mostly based on https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1232511.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1232511.shtml which is about the release of that report, but includes bits from other sources, including unnamed local officials in Tibet.

porlune 5y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20210826172342/https://www.tibetanreview.net/70th-party-anniversary-publication-calls-chinas-tibet-policy-a-template-for-other-ethnic-minority-regions/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210826172342/https://www.tibet...

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

https://freetibet.org/about/legal-status-tibet https://freetibet.org/about/legal-status-tibet Imagine being called a minority in a place you are the majority and have lived for centuries before occupation. https://www.britannica.com/place/Tibet/People https://www.britannica.com/place/Tibet/People "The population of the region is almost entirely Tibetan, with Han (Chinese), Hui (Chinese Muslims), Monba, Lhoba, and other minority nationalities. Thus, the majority of the people of Tibet have the same ethnic origin, have traditionally practiced the same religion, and speak the same language."

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
So, native Americans?
- mesh 5y ago
  Native Americans represent 1.7% of the US population: https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/omh/browse.aspx?lvl=3&lvlid=62 https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/omh/browse.aspx?lvl=3&lvlid=6...
  - nohr 5y ago
    Are you this dense, or is this on purpose?
  - utunbu 5y ago
    Tibetan people represent 0.4% of the Chinese population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people
    - echelon 5y ago
      Tibet isn't China. They got Crimea'd in the "Peaceful Liberation of Tibet"
      - antonzabirko 5y ago

throwawaysea 5y ago

Really sad to see Tibet under CCP control. It would be much preferable if the region were an autonomous province of India, with whom Tibet has cultural affinity. Note that the real Dalai Lama has had to live in exile for decades in India, while seeing his people get slowly indoctrinated by the Chinese government via various education programs and such (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama). The word people need to learn is “Sinicization”, which describes the programs that implement a slow takeover and indoctrination of an entire people - effectively a cultural genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet

8note 5y ago
Tibet is a threat to China, since it's where the rivers start. Tibet under India's control is a doomsday scenario for chinese sovereignty
- contravariant 5y ago
  Seems a bit silly to worry about the water supply when both sides have nukes.
  - nlarion 5y ago
    yeah, just drink the enriched uranium.... ~_~
beaunative 5y ago
Only if by cultural affinity you meant a Caste system had Tibet had any similarity to India. Buddhism was wiped, or in your word cultrually-genocided, by Hinduism already in India. The only reason why India might be anywhere interested in hosting a Buddhism monk is to annoy China, and nothing else.
allemagne 5y ago
Obviously, Tibetans should be in charge of Tibet and decide for themselves.

neverywhere 5y ago

China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country. They do it via birth control and family separation so it happening slowly but it is still decreasing the population of non-Han ethnic groups in comparison to the Han ethnic group. When this was done elsewhere it was declared as the worst form of racism/ethnocide/genocide, but in China it is accepted standard practice. Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. But somehow China is getting away with this behaviour towards its ethnic minorities.

uniqueuid 5y ago
These arguments are not unknown in the discourse in western media, but it's always good to fact-check. Do you have any report or data on these at hand? I'd expect amnesty international for example to have complied info on such cases.
- neverywhere 5y ago
  AP News article on birth suppression: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
  - uniqueuid 5y ago
    Thanks, this looks really well-researched! "an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. "
colpabar 5y ago
>Imagine if Israel You don't have to imagine. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-birth-control-1.5300291 https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-bir...

Gunax 5y ago

Genghis Khan was not a conqueror in his mind. Instead, the whole world's population was simply tresspassing on what was rightfully promised to him.

beaunative 5y ago
I'm sure that's what in the mind of Hitler/Romans/Crussaders as well.
- swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
  It's easy to be motivated by plunder and prestige, back when it was possible.
  - curation 5y ago
    A main reason why so many in the West have taken part in the protests against China is ideological: Tibetan Buddhism, deftly spun by the Dalai Lama, is a major point of reference of the New Age hedonist spirituality which is becoming the predominant form of ideology today. Our fascination with Tibet makes it into a mythic place upon which we project our dreams. When people mourn the loss of the authentic Tibetan way of life, they don’t care about real Tibetans: they want Tibetans to be authentically spiritual on behalf of us so we can continue with our crazy consumerism.https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet
    - Animats 5y ago
      "Before 1950 Tibet was no Shangri-la, but a country of harsh feudalism, poverty (life expectancy was barely 30), corruption and civil wars (the last, between two monastic factions, was in 1948 when the Red Army was already knocking at the door). Fearing social unrest and disintegration, the ruling elite prohibited any development of industry, so all metal had to be imported from India." "It seems the Chinese Communists finally learned the lesson: what is the oppressive power of secret police, camps and Red Guards destroying ancient monuments, compared to the power of unbridled capitalism to undermine all traditional social relations?" China still struggles with integrating their minority populations. For the last half century, the CCP has been trying to convert the Cantonese-speaking regions to Mandarin, without much success.

tsjq 5y ago

Afghanistan next.

cyberlurker 5y ago
Good luck
yourapostasy 5y ago
China has actually been relatively disinterested investing into Afghanistan [1], even when the US had been footing the security umbrella. Now that any investments might need to also contend with a civil war re-erupting from before the US entered, the numbers to pencil out are even further out of grasp. Any investment into Afghanistan as a raw materials resource and/or 棲息地, Chinese Lebensraum, would have an ROI of quite a few decades. I don't see why they would economically rationally do that when the Belt and Road Initiative already will net them far more than "just" Afghanistan. [1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investment-in-Afghanistan2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-Chinese-investme...

La1n 5y ago

I don't think this belongs on HN, can someone explain to me why this does, seeing as this is number one on the front page? This doesn't seem to stimulate good and curious discussion to me.

thinktankie 5y ago

A reminder of how great life was for Tibetans under the feudal, theocratic serfdom of the lamas [1]. [1] “In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. 15 The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land--or the monastery’s land--without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama.” … “ The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.20” … “There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off.” - http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

uniqueuid 5y ago
I agree that the romanticized view of the tibetan societal structure is often very naive. But, of course, this does not mean that a forced annexation and subjugation by china is the only way that reforms could be made, or in fact the best. There are many different ways of modernization, some totalitarian ones and more liberal ones. I guess it should be clear which are preferable.

beaunative 5y ago

Tibetan and Han shared same genetic roots, so does their language (collectively classified as Sino-Tibetan languages). Legendly, in the dawn of human memories, the ancestors of Tibetan lost a tribal war against the ancestors of Han in the east and migrated west to a less-inhabited / less-suitable area as a result.

drocer88 5y ago
FYI: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23291 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23291 Note the PCA plot: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/6f245ebd-af27-4633-98fe-d088f12a75d6/ajpa23291-fig-0002-m.png https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/6f245ebd-af27-4633...
- beaunative 5y ago
  600~900 years ago is pre-modern, but it's well documented and hardly legend/mythical times. The PCA plot only note two genetic variations. You could easily find similar plot just between northern and southern Han. "Chinese was suggested to split away from Tibeto-Burman around 6 thousand years ago (kya) based on lexical evidence." This is consistent with the cliche of Chinese having 5000 years of history if we consider the formation of the Chinese language as a foundation for the nation. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41195 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41195

chana_masala 5y ago

Lots of seemingly unwarranted gray comments in this thread.

deleted 5y ago
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rl3 5y ago
Expected. Threads like these turn into a wasteland of downvotes for a reason. China is a superpower. Superpowers have units dedicated to information warfare. Some of these units deal with controlling discourse and sentiment. HN is a fairly prominent public forum within the tech industry. China wants global influence, particular in the technology sector. It's reasonable to assume they probably have some fairly clever downvote rings here that are well hidden.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  Kinda sorta. The more reasonable explanation is they have an effective domestic propaganda apparatus to shape domestic atttudes and a large diaspora that's well represented in tech. It can take quite some time for those attitudes to mellow. Add to that Westerners of various stripes that get defensive when foreign imperialism is discussed. No need for some kind of government run downvote ring.
  - rl3 5y ago
    I think the more reasonable explanation is it's a combination of both. What I described is pretty much a standard, expected, and elementary capability of any intelligence apparatus in the modern world these days. It doesn't even veer into conspiracy-anything. There's documents that detail precisely how some of these units work, Western or otherwise. That said, if you're entirely correct, it's admittedly a very sad reality.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      I know they have the capability, I'm just skeptical use it on HN. I would think they'd focus on places with more reach (e.g. Twitter, Facebook, maybe Reddit) and places were they could have more control (e.g. fake blogs, fake think tanks, websites that peddle conspiracy theories).

ilamont 5y ago

Tibetans live in many parts of China outside of Tibet, including southern Gansu and Qinghai (historically known as Amdo, see https://collab.its.virginia.edu/wiki/aboutthl/An%20Overview%20of%20Amdo%20%28Northeastern%20Tibet%29%20Historical%20Polities.html https://collab.its.virginia.edu/wiki/aboutthl/An%20Overview%...). Northern and western Sichuan province also had large populations of Tibetan people living in remote areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngawa_Tibetan_and_Qiang_Autonomous_Prefecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngawa_Tibetan_and_Qiang_Autono...), sometimes near temples such as Langmusi on the Sichuan/Gansu border. One trend that was taking place in western China when I last visited was out-migration of Han settlers from Sichuan and other more populous provinces to Xinjiang and other areas which were then dominated by ethnic minorities. This is taking place in Tibet as well: Han Chinese workers, investors, merchants, teachers and soldiers are pouring into remote Tibet. After the violence that ravaged this region in 2008, China’s aim is to make Tibet wealthier and more Chinese. Chinese leaders see development, along with an enhanced security presence, as the key to pacifying the Buddhist region. The central government invested $3 billion in the Tibet Autonomous Region last year, a 31 percent increase over 2008. Tibet’s gross domestic product is growing at a 12 percent annual rate, faster than the robust Chinese national average. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/asia/25tibet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/asia/25tibet.html

cucumb3rrelish 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism) > Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf argued in the chapter "Eastern Orientation or Eastern Policy" that the Germans needed Lebensraum in the East and described it as a "historic destiny" which would properly nurture the future generations of Germans > [...] was to be carried out through a rapidly enforced process of Gleichschaltung (synchronization). The ultimate intent of this was to eradicate all traces of national rather than racial consciousness, although their native languages were to remain in existence > [...] After Germany had acquired her Lebensraum, she now needed to populate these lands according to Nazi ideology and racial principles
- uniqueuid 5y ago

stardenburden 5y ago

So many bots in this thread, down voting everything that is anti china - be it true or false. Very curious to see that not even HN is safe from them.

belval 5y ago
> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. FWIW I would encourage you to use the above email as a lot of comments do seem greyed out for no reason.
optimalsolver 5y ago
Does it ever occur to you that someone can not want to jump on the "China bad!" train and not be a bot?
- throwaway98211 5y ago
  Absolutely -- there seems to be tons of real people very eager to equate criticism of the CCP to 'China bad!' and this is part of the problem. The CCP (like all major governments in history) has / is / will do things that are worthy of pushback and scrutiny. Please stop cheapening the debate by attempting to reframe critique of a major government's policies as nationalistic prejudice.
- emkoemko 5y ago
  how can anyone consider west Taiwan government as "Good"... we should ways fight against evil governments and companies that defend them just to have access to slave labour. American companies fighting the US government not to ban slave labour...NIKE
- 9999px 5y ago
  Americans are gone. Anti-China sentiment is at a boiling point and I really no longer see objective reporting or discussions. It's infuriating that the US is able to manufacture consent so efficiently.

curation 5y ago

It seems the Chinese Communists finally learned the lesson: what is the oppressive power of secret police, camps and Red Guards destroying ancient monuments, compared to the power of unbridled capitalism to undermine all traditional social relations? The Chinese are doing what the West has always done, as Brazil did in the Amazon or Russia in Siberia, and the US on its own western frontiers. (Tibet: dream and reality https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet https://mondediplo.com/2008/05/09tibet )

mapgrep 5y ago

This has already happened. Chen Quanguo was party secretary in Tibet during a major crackdown there and in 2016 transferred to be party secretary of Xinjiang where he led a very similar campaign of severe repression. He remains party secretary there. You can read about this any number of places including https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...

tomohawk 5y ago

They've already used it as a policy template in East Turkistan. The same guy who pacified Tibet is the same guy who has put millions in concentration camps in East Turkistan. Uighurs who have fled from there to Afghanistan are not happy with recent developments https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/afghanistan-uyghurs-08242021175318.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/afghanistan-uyghurs-...

dirtyid 5y ago

Rapid sinicization efforts in Tibet & XJ will probably be wildly "successful". There is increasing demand for models that can rapidly integrate minorities globally. The Tibet template will be emulated, but _poorly_ around the world. Emphasis on "poorly", the cost of propping up of restive regions and TINY* minorities with massive infrastructure, a variety of subsidies to artificially inflate GDP and drive up living standards and quell dissent with combination of political works and ubiquitous surveillance is not one that can be replicated or sustained by most interested parties. Most will stop at ubiquitous surveillance state, with technology likely sourced from PRC vendors who already use XJ/Tibet as advertising campaigns. It's also going to make west model look foolish in 15 years when new integrated generations in Tibet / XJ live fairly normal lives in well developed cities. I don't imagine minorities right in the west will make substantial headway despite all the free speech discussions. The gulf between performance vs performative systems is becoming increasingly self-evident. [*] Very few countries are as homogenized as PRC with only 8% minorities, of which realistically less than 1% will be subject to heavy sinicization efforts. Diverting disproportionate national resources to integrate restive frontier regions is not prohibitive at PRC scale. This model simply doesn't work for countries with 10/20/30+% minorities that must all be integrated simultaneously. So ironically it will work best in increasingly nativist wealthy countries that rely on managable amounts of immigration.

deleted 5y ago
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mensetmanusman 5y ago

Kidnap their future leaders and replace with CCP appointee? (This actually happened in Tibet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy)

o0-0o 5y ago

Free Tibet. Beastie Boys - shambala / bodhisattva vow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50OHxCnooQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50OHxCnooQs

PicassoCTs 5y ago

Imperialism with chinese characteristics. And they have "integrated" so many into this Han-Ethno-state by force. Some are barely visible by now. The Cantonese, the Mongol-Northeners, the Koreans, the uighurs and by now the HongKongers. Always remember the backlash though, when the empires power fails and falters. This can reach genocidal levels of backlash against the ex-overlords. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/186810341303200304 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/186810341303200... Some of the neighboring countries have outright traditions of defending against the neighboring empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War Just because this imperialism does not exist in the western left, its none the less just as real.