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France has probably the most fucked up law when it comes to squatting. Someone gets by effraction in an apartment/house, stay there for 48 hours and they are g

France has probably the most fucked up law when it comes to squatting. Someone gets by effraction in an apartment/house, stay there for 48 hours and they are good to stay forever. If this is your primary apartment, the local government (préfet) is supposed to issue an order to get the people out. They do not (because plenty of important reasons - important for them of course). Police usually try to negotiate with the squatters. If there is a small child with the squatters getting them out is not possible at all. Except if you find them a replacement apartment. And they accept it. If this is not your primary housing, then you are completely screwed. Thee is almost no way to get the people out. We have from time to time in the news information about people who are trying to get their house back for years. If you try to move them by force, they will sue you and you pay 40,000 € plus prison. They can be sued for up to 12,000€ (and prison - this has never happened) I love my country, but the brain-dead idiots who passed these laws should be publicly pointed to, with their home address, so that they can kindly invite the squatters to come when hey are on vacation.

orwin 5y ago
> Someone gets by effraction in an apartment/house, stay there for 48 hours and they are good to stay forever. That's not true. No mention of 48h anywhere. Only place i found it is here: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F35254 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F35254 "Le préfet rend sa décision dans un délai de 48 heures, à partir de la réception de la demande." which roughly translate to "The prefect renders his decision within 48 hours of receiving the request." We have a family house that was squatted on the coast during last winter. We asked the squatters to leave (while redacting a letter to the prefect) and they too believed the "48 hour" stuff. The police did not however, and made them leave quite quickly (less than a week).
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  > That's not true. No mention of 48h anywhere. Please see https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/ce-que-vous-devez-savoir-si-votre-logement-est-squatte_70f4422e-d36c-11e8-a48c-c6d2c6cff49b/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/ce-que-vous-devez-sav... and https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/logement-squatte-pourquoi-la-loi-bafoue-le-droit-a-la-propriete_3da696c0-eead-11ea-98b8-c14abd4b63fc/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/logement-squatte-pour... The 48 hours are a generally applied rule for the squatters to be differentiated from, say, burglars. Because otherwise someone forcibly coming into your house while you are there could not be arrested at all. The ones you mention is for the preéfet to statute about the expulsion. > We have a family house that was squatted on the coast during last winter I honestly pity you. I know of two families whose house was squatted and it took months for them to get back their house (in a terrible state); They never got anything from the quatters (nor from the insurance in one case).
  - Iv 5y ago
    Le Figaro is notoriously bad at sorting facts from right-wing rumors. That squatter theme is a recurrent subject to scare their typical landlord readership. Find primary sources for that.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      It is difficult to find more primary sources than being friends with people who were squatted and having witnessed what they went through.
- jwilber 5y ago
  Regardless, as an American reading this thread,it’s strange how common an occurrence in France squatting seems to be.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Isn't it common in the California?
    - SystemOut 5y ago
      At 30 days they gain rights as a tenant. There was a case years ago of someone with an AirBnB I believe where they stayed longer than 30 days and then refused to leave claiming they had established the place as their residence.
      - markdown 5y ago
        Sounds perfect. Nobody should own more than one residence. Another family taking over is the best outcome for the community. Absentee landlords really need to be given the boot.
        nautilius 5y ago
        I don't understand your point at all. What's an absentee landlord in your book? A landlord who doesn't live in the place they are renting out? I would assume that's - all of them?
        gowld 5y ago
        A non absentee landlord lives on the same land as the rental unit.
        CompuHacker 5y ago
        Do you mean a contiguous, legal parcel of land or a more natural division, like valleys, mountaintops, coastlines, etc.?
j1elo 5y ago
This reminded me of a funny (in a sense) video that got viral a while ago here in Spain, where someone had squatted on the apartment of some romanian dude. He was talking to the camera with a hammer on his hand: "spanish law says this or that, well we are going to solve this with romanian law, which says that you do not screw with me"... Blows the door lock away with the hammer and proceeds into the premise. I would love to know what happened afterwards, but I can imagine.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  The problem in France is that we have a completely surrealist approach to property. If you want to get back to your house, police is going to stop you because you are entering by effraction when someone is lawfully permitted to stay in a place that belongs to someone else. These squatters will sue you. They have the right to live somewhere, so your place is as good as anything else. They have children, so they have more rights than you for your house. They can destroy everything, and you should be happy to get back a ruin. Like I said, I truly love my country but this is one of the few things that drive me completely crazy and where I understand violence of people getting back their house (like the Romanian dude)
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Can one break in when they are on vacation and squat it back for 48 hours to reclaim?
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      I actually asked the question to police once (or enter by force and just stay there). They did not know.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        "don't know" = it's in that gray ares where the more sympathetic person will probably win in court.
908B64B197 5y ago
This is from the same country that bans (and will criminally charge "fathers") for performing a paternity test. [0] Wait until they learn about Stand Your Ground laws... [1] [0] https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france/ https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  This is incorrect. You can have a paternity test in France, in a lawful context. The regulations (in French) are here: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Is suspicion that your child is not yours a "lawful context"?
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      No, because the law has a sucker and doesn't want you to get out of paying.
      - aero-glide2 5y ago
        How are people not protesting this? Who would even enact such a law?
        gryn 5y ago
        The government once they found that they would have to pay a very large sum to take care of every child out there whose legal father decided to no longer pay once he found out the child is not his (and/or just to spare the child from all the drama, once the court says yes you're not the biological father but you're still on the hook). I think it was after a survey on cheating and promiscuity, but I'm not sure of this since this was just something I heard of from other people and I can't find much from a quick search on the internet. The reasoning is that the priorities of the child come before the priorities of the father, so in order to protect the stability of the family you are not allowed to know. As to who supports this, a lot of women seems to be in support of it (they have nothing to gain from opposing it) and all the people who seem to 'think of the children'. Some politicians claim to be against allowing the paternity test on the ground that it is against the values of the republic since it's an aknowlegment of the importance of relations blood, genetics, and race(ism), but these are the words of politicians so they don't mean much.
spoonjim 5y ago
My grandfather had squatters like this, he basically used a gang that specializes in evictions. They burst into the home in the middle of the night, forcibly removed everyone and their belongings from the premises, and threatened the family with violence if they attempted any legal proceedings. Crazy life in the countries without rule of law.
- bserge 5y ago
  Yeah, well, gotta do what you gotta do. When the laws are completely fucked, you take matters in your own hands. Citizens of ex-communist countries know a thing or two about it.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Spoke with a ex-prosecutor now Judge. They couldn't possibly fight mafia there, but drug laws were extremely harsh. Basically cops just planted drugs and it was an instant slamdunk case.
nonameiguess 5y ago
I don't understand how this can possibly work. If someone can break into your house, occupy it, and gain the right to stay, can't you just do the same? Then you have two occupants in the house. What the heck kind of law or arbitration gets to determine who is allowed to occupy the beds in the house and use the kitchen?
- knodi123 5y ago
  They can't stay if you catch them fast enough. If you want to pull the same scam to get it back, you need to convince them to be gone long enough for you to live there a couple days, unnoticed.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Also - you can't deny them entry if they leave, and you have to keep your house in livable condition (as if you're a charity landlord).
  - avidiax 5y ago
    Can't you just break in, post a selfie to twitter saying "the squatters have left :)", leave, then break in 48h later and keep the place? I really highly doubt that the original squatters continuously inhabited the place, as though they were clinging to a new Kia in a radio contest.
  - cmmeur01 5y ago
    So when the cops show up how is it not a he said she said situation? If I “break in” to my house, they call the cops on me as a “burglar” how does the cop know how long either party has been present?
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      I assume cops don't care and leave it to the court systems
    - LanceH 5y ago
      One tactic is for them to have a "deed of sale" on hand. They show it to the cops and the cops tell you to get out, and settle it in court. Never mind that real property isn't transferred quite like that, or that you have state id that matches the address. The cops just take the "deed" at face value and kick you out.
mlcrypto 5y ago
That's why I have no desire to travel to Europe. It's completely run down and has the slimiest scams I've ever heard of. Not good to be a property owner these days. Bullish for Bitcoin
- bserge 5y ago
  The whole of Europe, yeah, sounds reasonable.
bserge 5y ago
If the laws are idiotic, you can always employ people who work outside it. A team of Romanian/Bulgarian/Polish big guys will take care of your squatter problem for less than 1000 Euros. There's likely people of other nationalities doing this, I wouldn't know, I only dealt with these three and they operate everywhere. And no deaths or major injuries, of course, that's just bad business. Sadly there's no easy app for connection.
- tptacek 5y ago
  There's really no problem you can't solve, with the law or otherwise, by paying people to commit violence on your behalf.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Well, unless you're going against someone much bigger than you.
    - DamnYuppie 5y ago
      Hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
  - contravariant 5y ago
    There are a couple, in particular I imagine violence won't be much help when the law has one of its psychotic episodes and refuses to reflect reality in a sensible way. So stuff like people being declared dead incorrectly, identity fraud. I'm also reminded of an incident in the Netherlands that lead to the fall of the current (still acting; it's complicated) government, where the tax agency was somehow convinced people had fraudulently received particular subsidies and decide to get the money back plus interest, which it turns out tax agencies are very good at. Good luck finding anyone to beat up there. You can scare people but you can't intimidate red tape.
    - rblatz 5y ago
      If your violence isn’t working it means you just aren’t using enough of it.
ummonk 5y ago
> I love my country, but the brain-dead idiots who passed these laws should be publicly pointed to, with their home address, so that they can kindly invite the squatters to come when hey are on vacation. I mean unironically the people affected by it should do this.
- koolba 5y ago
  Can I pull this off at say, Versailles?
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    It would be different because it would be Versailles. TV would be there, Macron would be called off and the situation would be fixed in minutes. If you are in Trou-les-Bains then nobody cares.
- gowld 5y ago
  The people affected by it can't do that because they can't live in 2 homes at once. That's the point. Essentially the law says you have no right to 2 homes.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    Yeah but you basically move from whatever home you’re living in to some rich person’s vacation villa.
suifbwish 5y ago
Sounds like a way around this is to rig up some kind of high/low pitch directional sound system that prevents them from sleeping and goes through ear protectors. All you have to do is put it in the wall and set it to make its noise after a random duration between 5-100 mins has passed. If you added some accelerometer detection, it could even stop when it detects someone making any considerable noise near it. If they try to rip it out you can have them arrested for vandalism of private property. What are they going to do? Complain about it?
- Taniwha 5y ago
  rip out the walls to remove it ....
- strait 5y ago
  Interesting idea, but I suspect that jurisdictions soft on squatters are almost certainly soft on vandalism and theft of contents caused by said occupants. Once the owner reclaims their property, it's then an uphill battle to prove and pursue damages against people who are long gone. Before an owner takes any action, they had best know what type of squatters they are dealing with. Some would be likely to set fire to the place on the way out (or not leave; perishing amongst the smoke and flames) if they are subjected to enough anguish.
- tyingq 5y ago
  Shellfish in the air ducts. No idea how long it takes to air out though.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Was thinking the same, but perhaps better doors and a security system is easier?
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Not only they will complain, but you will get arrested for assault on people quietly living in a house. I think the situation is hardly understandable for someone outside of France.
dumbfounder 5y ago
We rented a house from friends (well, really their father's estate who had died the year prior, it was put up in a school auction) outside Nice a few years back. They had a caretaker go by the house a few days before we were to arrive only to find evidence someone was living there. It was supposed to be vacant. The squatters were (very luckily) not there at the time and they called the police right away. The police said make sure they can't get back in or else you will be in court for 2 years trying to get them out. They hired a company to sit guard 24/7 and locked up the house and sold it as quickly as they could. When they first told us we were like oh it's ok we will stay there if you got them out! I am glad they insisted that was a bad idea and found us a new house, the squatters tried to get back into the house a few times because it turns out they had hidden some drugs there. The good news is that my friend and his brother came over to sort out the mess and we were able to hang out for a few days! Great town except for all the squatting :)
anigbrowl 5y ago
For some values of 'fucked up'. Other societies may have different criteria for evaluating the relative priorities of housing and property rights.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  So the ones who are for this kind of approach should publicly invite the squatters to their house, and live under a bridge. It is always simple to make other people do what you claim is right.
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    You yourself distinguished in your first post between squatters occupying someone's primary residence vs a rental or otherwise unoccupied property. Here you are eliding that distinction in order to make an emotional argument. There is no need to be so angry about the existence of other points of view besides your own.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      No, both are equally despicable. The distinction was to show that ain France you are more or less screwed depending in the house. I am glad that you don not get emotional when you are robbed of your property, good for you. Well, except if you were never robbed - which can explain this.
lycopodiopsida 5y ago
The law seems to be changed since 2021: https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property/eviction_squatters_new_law https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property/evictio...
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  The changes were mostly cosmetic, see https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/pourquoi-expulser-un-squatteur-ne-sera-pas-si-facile-malgre-la-nouvelle-loi_15876fa8-6152-11eb-9c4a-f8f946d2a3ec/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/pourquoi-expulser-un-... (in French). In particular, the fact that the authorities must reply in 48h was shown as a progress. The problem is that if they do not reply, it is equivalent to a denial of right (your request to evict the squatters has been automatically rejected)
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Can you trick them? Fake a fire alarm and change locks meanwhile.
markdown 5y ago
> If this is not your primary housing, then you are completely screwed BOOM! That's where the law is chefs kiss... perfection. Nobody should own more than one home. Someone else taking over the secondary residence is the best outcome for the community.
- Aunche 5y ago
  In that case, nobody would ever build a new apartment complex because they would be not be allowed to own it after they build it.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  Where do people live that can’t afford to buy a house? There will be nothing to rent.
belter 5y ago
Who pays for electricity, water, phone and internet? The squatters or the flat owner? How do they a contract in without proof of rental? Property taxes? Does the policy goes to the house if there is "anonymous" tips of drugs, child abuse? Will they be able to sleep with heavy/trash metal music directed to their windows 24/7 at realistic concert levels :-) So many ideas, so many questions....:-)
- MichaelZuo 5y ago
  Right! The implication of the parent is that property tax bureaus all across France are constantly being screwed around with? Surely a law in France that undermines the taxation system would be changed quickly? Unless there is some mechanism to force the owners to pay tax for a house being squatted in?
  - gowld 5y ago
    Of course. Landlord is responsible for taxes. Tenant isn't. Tenant not paying rent is landlord's problem.
    - MichaelZuo 5y ago
      If the ownership of the property is in dispute there is no clear landlord. That’s the gist of having squatters being able to stay in the place for years on end battling a court case. Otherwise the judiciary in France is behaving inexplicably.
oystersauce 5y ago
Is that idiotic? Kicking a Family out of a home when they have a small child should be difficult by default. I understand this can be abused, but wouldn’t you rather the law protect the vulnerable rather than the multiple property owner? (I mean no disrespect by that, I think it’s fine to own multiple properties, but to play victim here seems a little bit much)
- esyir 5y ago
  No, I would rather them kick out the family, child and all. To do otherwise incentivizes bad behavior. Worse, it externalizes the problem from a societal one (building more housing) to an individual.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Do you give away all the money you earn (equivalent to the case of someone breaking into your primary house), or what is left (case of a secondary house). If not you should - this will protect the poor.
schoen 5y ago
> Someone gets by effraction I didn't know this word -- apparently it's an older English (but still current) French word for what we usually call "burglary" or "breaking and entering" in English now. I might say "Someone breaks into an apartment/house..." in this context.
- LanceH 5y ago
  "breaking" is an unusual usage as well. It's the use of any force -- not literally breaking something. Pushing a door open would count as the use of force. Think more like "breaking a seal", rather than breaking a window.
Kluny 5y ago
Honestly this sounds like a good way to keep real estate values in check.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
Can you squat where the squatters are since it's your property and then invite another 100 of your friends to squat and out-squat them?
nimbius 5y ago
I've a hard time slamming poor people demanding a ransom for a rich mans holiday home left largely unoccupied throughout the year in a country with fifteen percent unemployment
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  I have a hard time with people who do not publish their home address for the squatters to come in when they are on vacation. Please live with your beliefs and get the squatters in your house. You would solve that problem of poverty at once.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
What the fuck. Laws should be empowering people to use force against these criminals instead of protecting them.
csomar 5y ago
> I love my country, but the brain-dead idiots who passed these laws should be publicly pointed to They are not idiots. They are passing the issue (inability of some people to access housing) from them (the government) to some other individuals. It's some form of unorganized taxation.
- leshenka 5y ago
  "Surprise wealth redistribution"
galuggus 5y ago
Could you resquat the apartment while the squatters were out?
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Yes you could, but they are never out. You trying to get in is violence and they will call the police to protect them. And the police will protect them as the lawful inhabitants of your house.
Parae 5y ago
I'm from France and I used to go to a lot of squats, and what you say is not true. I don't live in squats but I know a girl who does. She was rejected by her parents because she is lesbian. Even in uninhabited houses, when the police comes, every squatters are out immediately. Even if they have no rights to do it, and the law is supposed to "protect" squatters. I witnessed police throwing tear gas and smoke grenade to get squatters out. And when they are out, the police acts as if nothing happened.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  We have a different experience. As I wrote elsewhere, i know of two cases where it took months to get the squatters out - and what was left was a ruin. The cases in the news you see from time to time agree. Squatting is simply stealing. Sorry but I have exactly zero compassion for people who come to my apartment, that I bought with hard earned money, and fuck it up. This is one of these cases where violence is the normal reaction. I hope that people who support squatters give out their salary and live under a bridge - this would be a true alignement with their beliefs. Otherwise this just hypocrisy ("people should be able to live where they want, except in my house")
ithkuil 5y ago
So what's your option if somebody squats your first and only house/apartment you own? Rent another place? Do you still need to pay property taxes in the property you can no longer use? EDIT: what makes this particularly ridiculous is the timeframe you mentioned: 48 hours. I mean it would be a totally different thing if we were talking about squatting places abandoned for years. Yes you can make an argument about private property etc, but it's a different planet: if somebody squats my only house in which in paying a mortgage, that can easily put me in financial jeopardy. What should I do? Stop paying my mortgage? Squat another house myself?
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Yes, you have to find another place to live. You still have to pay taxes on property, as well as all the utilities you have a contract for. You are also completely responsible for the safety of the house. If something happens to someone (inside the house to the squatters, or outside to a bypasser), you as the owner will be responsible. The law protects squatters in their freedom to live where they see fit. The law also theoretically protects the owners. The problem is that there are so many exceptions (children, ...) and requirements (negotiating with the squatters, ...) that what you get after months (some were apparently luckier) is usually a ruin and you are expected to be ecstatic about the fact that you got your house back. The people who support this situation are despicable. Especially because I do not see them giving their house away and living under a bridge to live their dream of complete freedom. When we will have meetings for the next election, I will ask the candidates about their opinion on squatters, and if they support them in any way, their home address so that can hop in, burn it to the ground and expect them to clap because freedom and equality. EDIT to your EDIT: the problem is with houses people own as their primary ones (and come back from vacation to an occupied house), and the ones they use occasionally(week-ends, vacation, or rent). If there is a building that is abandoned I do not see much problems outside of insalubrity and health/security risks.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    I assume this happens unfrequently enough for being a major topic during an election.
zibzab 5y ago
how about you also move in with them? Maybe invite all your friends too?

orwin 5y ago

> Someone gets by effraction in an apartment/house, stay there for 48 hours and they are good to stay forever. That's not true. No mention of 48h anywhere. Only place i found it is here: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F35254 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F35254 "Le préfet rend sa décision dans un délai de 48 heures, à partir de la réception de la demande." which roughly translate to "The prefect renders his decision within 48 hours of receiving the request." We have a family house that was squatted on the coast during last winter. We asked the squatters to leave (while redacting a letter to the prefect) and they too believed the "48 hour" stuff. The police did not however, and made them leave quite quickly (less than a week).

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
> That's not true. No mention of 48h anywhere. Please see https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/ce-que-vous-devez-savoir-si-votre-logement-est-squatte_70f4422e-d36c-11e8-a48c-c6d2c6cff49b/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/ce-que-vous-devez-sav... and https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/logement-squatte-pourquoi-la-loi-bafoue-le-droit-a-la-propriete_3da696c0-eead-11ea-98b8-c14abd4b63fc/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/logement-squatte-pour... The 48 hours are a generally applied rule for the squatters to be differentiated from, say, burglars. Because otherwise someone forcibly coming into your house while you are there could not be arrested at all. The ones you mention is for the preéfet to statute about the expulsion. > We have a family house that was squatted on the coast during last winter I honestly pity you. I know of two families whose house was squatted and it took months for them to get back their house (in a terrible state); They never got anything from the quatters (nor from the insurance in one case).
- Iv 5y ago
  Le Figaro is notoriously bad at sorting facts from right-wing rumors. That squatter theme is a recurrent subject to scare their typical landlord readership. Find primary sources for that.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    It is difficult to find more primary sources than being friends with people who were squatted and having witnessed what they went through.
jwilber 5y ago
Regardless, as an American reading this thread,it’s strange how common an occurrence in France squatting seems to be.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Isn't it common in the California?
  - SystemOut 5y ago
    At 30 days they gain rights as a tenant. There was a case years ago of someone with an AirBnB I believe where they stayed longer than 30 days and then refused to leave claiming they had established the place as their residence.
    - markdown 5y ago
      Sounds perfect. Nobody should own more than one residence. Another family taking over is the best outcome for the community. Absentee landlords really need to be given the boot.
      - nautilius 5y ago
        I don't understand your point at all. What's an absentee landlord in your book? A landlord who doesn't live in the place they are renting out? I would assume that's - all of them?
        gowld 5y ago
        A non absentee landlord lives on the same land as the rental unit.
        CompuHacker 5y ago
        Do you mean a contiguous, legal parcel of land or a more natural division, like valleys, mountaintops, coastlines, etc.?

j1elo 5y ago

This reminded me of a funny (in a sense) video that got viral a while ago here in Spain, where someone had squatted on the apartment of some romanian dude. He was talking to the camera with a hammer on his hand: "spanish law says this or that, well we are going to solve this with romanian law, which says that you do not screw with me"... Blows the door lock away with the hammer and proceeds into the premise. I would love to know what happened afterwards, but I can imagine.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
The problem in France is that we have a completely surrealist approach to property. If you want to get back to your house, police is going to stop you because you are entering by effraction when someone is lawfully permitted to stay in a place that belongs to someone else. These squatters will sue you. They have the right to live somewhere, so your place is as good as anything else. They have children, so they have more rights than you for your house. They can destroy everything, and you should be happy to get back a ruin. Like I said, I truly love my country but this is one of the few things that drive me completely crazy and where I understand violence of people getting back their house (like the Romanian dude)
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Can one break in when they are on vacation and squat it back for 48 hours to reclaim?
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    I actually asked the question to police once (or enter by force and just stay there). They did not know.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      "don't know" = it's in that gray ares where the more sympathetic person will probably win in court.

908B64B197 5y ago

This is from the same country that bans (and will criminally charge "fathers") for performing a paternity test. [0] Wait until they learn about Stand Your Ground laws... [1] [0] https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france/ https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
This is incorrect. You can have a paternity test in France, in a lawful context. The regulations (in French) are here: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  Is suspicion that your child is not yours a "lawful context"?
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    No, because the law has a sucker and doesn't want you to get out of paying.
    - aero-glide2 5y ago
      How are people not protesting this? Who would even enact such a law?
      - gryn 5y ago
        The government once they found that they would have to pay a very large sum to take care of every child out there whose legal father decided to no longer pay once he found out the child is not his (and/or just to spare the child from all the drama, once the court says yes you're not the biological father but you're still on the hook). I think it was after a survey on cheating and promiscuity, but I'm not sure of this since this was just something I heard of from other people and I can't find much from a quick search on the internet. The reasoning is that the priorities of the child come before the priorities of the father, so in order to protect the stability of the family you are not allowed to know. As to who supports this, a lot of women seems to be in support of it (they have nothing to gain from opposing it) and all the people who seem to 'think of the children'. Some politicians claim to be against allowing the paternity test on the ground that it is against the values of the republic since it's an aknowlegment of the importance of relations blood, genetics, and race(ism), but these are the words of politicians so they don't mean much.

spoonjim 5y ago

My grandfather had squatters like this, he basically used a gang that specializes in evictions. They burst into the home in the middle of the night, forcibly removed everyone and their belongings from the premises, and threatened the family with violence if they attempted any legal proceedings. Crazy life in the countries without rule of law.

bserge 5y ago
Yeah, well, gotta do what you gotta do. When the laws are completely fucked, you take matters in your own hands. Citizens of ex-communist countries know a thing or two about it.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Spoke with a ex-prosecutor now Judge. They couldn't possibly fight mafia there, but drug laws were extremely harsh. Basically cops just planted drugs and it was an instant slamdunk case.

nonameiguess 5y ago

I don't understand how this can possibly work. If someone can break into your house, occupy it, and gain the right to stay, can't you just do the same? Then you have two occupants in the house. What the heck kind of law or arbitration gets to determine who is allowed to occupy the beds in the house and use the kitchen?

knodi123 5y ago
They can't stay if you catch them fast enough. If you want to pull the same scam to get it back, you need to convince them to be gone long enough for you to live there a couple days, unnoticed.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Also - you can't deny them entry if they leave, and you have to keep your house in livable condition (as if you're a charity landlord).
- avidiax 5y ago
  Can't you just break in, post a selfie to twitter saying "the squatters have left :)", leave, then break in 48h later and keep the place? I really highly doubt that the original squatters continuously inhabited the place, as though they were clinging to a new Kia in a radio contest.
- cmmeur01 5y ago
  So when the cops show up how is it not a he said she said situation? If I “break in” to my house, they call the cops on me as a “burglar” how does the cop know how long either party has been present?
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    I assume cops don't care and leave it to the court systems
  - LanceH 5y ago
    One tactic is for them to have a "deed of sale" on hand. They show it to the cops and the cops tell you to get out, and settle it in court. Never mind that real property isn't transferred quite like that, or that you have state id that matches the address. The cops just take the "deed" at face value and kick you out.

mlcrypto 5y ago

That's why I have no desire to travel to Europe. It's completely run down and has the slimiest scams I've ever heard of. Not good to be a property owner these days. Bullish for Bitcoin

bserge 5y ago
The whole of Europe, yeah, sounds reasonable.

bserge 5y ago

If the laws are idiotic, you can always employ people who work outside it. A team of Romanian/Bulgarian/Polish big guys will take care of your squatter problem for less than 1000 Euros. There's likely people of other nationalities doing this, I wouldn't know, I only dealt with these three and they operate everywhere. And no deaths or major injuries, of course, that's just bad business. Sadly there's no easy app for connection.

tptacek 5y ago
There's really no problem you can't solve, with the law or otherwise, by paying people to commit violence on your behalf.
- bserge 5y ago
  Well, unless you're going against someone much bigger than you.
  - DamnYuppie 5y ago
    Hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
- contravariant 5y ago
  There are a couple, in particular I imagine violence won't be much help when the law has one of its psychotic episodes and refuses to reflect reality in a sensible way. So stuff like people being declared dead incorrectly, identity fraud. I'm also reminded of an incident in the Netherlands that lead to the fall of the current (still acting; it's complicated) government, where the tax agency was somehow convinced people had fraudulently received particular subsidies and decide to get the money back plus interest, which it turns out tax agencies are very good at. Good luck finding anyone to beat up there. You can scare people but you can't intimidate red tape.
  - rblatz 5y ago
    If your violence isn’t working it means you just aren’t using enough of it.

ummonk 5y ago

> I love my country, but the brain-dead idiots who passed these laws should be publicly pointed to, with their home address, so that they can kindly invite the squatters to come when hey are on vacation. I mean unironically the people affected by it should do this.

koolba 5y ago
Can I pull this off at say, Versailles?
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  It would be different because it would be Versailles. TV would be there, Macron would be called off and the situation would be fixed in minutes. If you are in Trou-les-Bains then nobody cares.
gowld 5y ago
The people affected by it can't do that because they can't live in 2 homes at once. That's the point. Essentially the law says you have no right to 2 homes.
- ummonk 5y ago
  Yeah but you basically move from whatever home you’re living in to some rich person’s vacation villa.

suifbwish 5y ago

Sounds like a way around this is to rig up some kind of high/low pitch directional sound system that prevents them from sleeping and goes through ear protectors. All you have to do is put it in the wall and set it to make its noise after a random duration between 5-100 mins has passed. If you added some accelerometer detection, it could even stop when it detects someone making any considerable noise near it. If they try to rip it out you can have them arrested for vandalism of private property. What are they going to do? Complain about it?

Taniwha 5y ago
rip out the walls to remove it ....
strait 5y ago
Interesting idea, but I suspect that jurisdictions soft on squatters are almost certainly soft on vandalism and theft of contents caused by said occupants. Once the owner reclaims their property, it's then an uphill battle to prove and pursue damages against people who are long gone. Before an owner takes any action, they had best know what type of squatters they are dealing with. Some would be likely to set fire to the place on the way out (or not leave; perishing amongst the smoke and flames) if they are subjected to enough anguish.
tyingq 5y ago
Shellfish in the air ducts. No idea how long it takes to air out though.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Was thinking the same, but perhaps better doors and a security system is easier?
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Not only they will complain, but you will get arrested for assault on people quietly living in a house. I think the situation is hardly understandable for someone outside of France.

dumbfounder 5y ago

We rented a house from friends (well, really their father's estate who had died the year prior, it was put up in a school auction) outside Nice a few years back. They had a caretaker go by the house a few days before we were to arrive only to find evidence someone was living there. It was supposed to be vacant. The squatters were (very luckily) not there at the time and they called the police right away. The police said make sure they can't get back in or else you will be in court for 2 years trying to get them out. They hired a company to sit guard 24/7 and locked up the house and sold it as quickly as they could. When they first told us we were like oh it's ok we will stay there if you got them out! I am glad they insisted that was a bad idea and found us a new house, the squatters tried to get back into the house a few times because it turns out they had hidden some drugs there. The good news is that my friend and his brother came over to sort out the mess and we were able to hang out for a few days! Great town except for all the squatting :)

anigbrowl 5y ago

For some values of 'fucked up'. Other societies may have different criteria for evaluating the relative priorities of housing and property rights.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
So the ones who are for this kind of approach should publicly invite the squatters to their house, and live under a bridge. It is always simple to make other people do what you claim is right.
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  You yourself distinguished in your first post between squatters occupying someone's primary residence vs a rental or otherwise unoccupied property. Here you are eliding that distinction in order to make an emotional argument. There is no need to be so angry about the existence of other points of view besides your own.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    No, both are equally despicable. The distinction was to show that ain France you are more or less screwed depending in the house. I am glad that you don not get emotional when you are robbed of your property, good for you. Well, except if you were never robbed - which can explain this.

lycopodiopsida 5y ago

The law seems to be changed since 2021: https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property/eviction_squatters_new_law https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property/evictio...

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
The changes were mostly cosmetic, see https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/pourquoi-expulser-un-squatteur-ne-sera-pas-si-facile-malgre-la-nouvelle-loi_15876fa8-6152-11eb-9c4a-f8f946d2a3ec/ https://immobilier.lefigaro.fr/article/pourquoi-expulser-un-... (in French). In particular, the fact that the authorities must reply in 48h was shown as a progress. The problem is that if they do not reply, it is equivalent to a denial of right (your request to evict the squatters has been automatically rejected)

dzhiurgis 5y ago

Can you trick them? Fake a fire alarm and change locks meanwhile.

markdown 5y ago

> If this is not your primary housing, then you are completely screwed BOOM! That's where the law is chefs kiss... perfection. Nobody should own more than one home. Someone else taking over the secondary residence is the best outcome for the community.

Aunche 5y ago
In that case, nobody would ever build a new apartment complex because they would be not be allowed to own it after they build it.
alasdair_ 5y ago
Where do people live that can’t afford to buy a house? There will be nothing to rent.

belter 5y ago

Who pays for electricity, water, phone and internet? The squatters or the flat owner? How do they a contract in without proof of rental? Property taxes? Does the policy goes to the house if there is "anonymous" tips of drugs, child abuse? Will they be able to sleep with heavy/trash metal music directed to their windows 24/7 at realistic concert levels :-) So many ideas, so many questions....:-)

MichaelZuo 5y ago
Right! The implication of the parent is that property tax bureaus all across France are constantly being screwed around with? Surely a law in France that undermines the taxation system would be changed quickly? Unless there is some mechanism to force the owners to pay tax for a house being squatted in?
- gowld 5y ago
  Of course. Landlord is responsible for taxes. Tenant isn't. Tenant not paying rent is landlord's problem.
  - MichaelZuo 5y ago
    If the ownership of the property is in dispute there is no clear landlord. That’s the gist of having squatters being able to stay in the place for years on end battling a court case. Otherwise the judiciary in France is behaving inexplicably.

oystersauce 5y ago

Is that idiotic? Kicking a Family out of a home when they have a small child should be difficult by default. I understand this can be abused, but wouldn’t you rather the law protect the vulnerable rather than the multiple property owner? (I mean no disrespect by that, I think it’s fine to own multiple properties, but to play victim here seems a little bit much)

esyir 5y ago
No, I would rather them kick out the family, child and all. To do otherwise incentivizes bad behavior. Worse, it externalizes the problem from a societal one (building more housing) to an individual.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Do you give away all the money you earn (equivalent to the case of someone breaking into your primary house), or what is left (case of a secondary house). If not you should - this will protect the poor.

schoen 5y ago

> Someone gets by effraction I didn't know this word -- apparently it's an older English (but still current) French word for what we usually call "burglary" or "breaking and entering" in English now. I might say "Someone breaks into an apartment/house..." in this context.

LanceH 5y ago
"breaking" is an unusual usage as well. It's the use of any force -- not literally breaking something. Pushing a door open would count as the use of force. Think more like "breaking a seal", rather than breaking a window.

Kluny 5y ago

Honestly this sounds like a good way to keep real estate values in check.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

Can you squat where the squatters are since it's your property and then invite another 100 of your friends to squat and out-squat them?

nimbius 5y ago

I've a hard time slamming poor people demanding a ransom for a rich mans holiday home left largely unoccupied throughout the year in a country with fifteen percent unemployment

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
I have a hard time with people who do not publish their home address for the squatters to come in when they are on vacation. Please live with your beliefs and get the squatters in your house. You would solve that problem of poverty at once.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

What the fuck. Laws should be empowering people to use force against these criminals instead of protecting them.

csomar 5y ago

> I love my country, but the brain-dead idiots who passed these laws should be publicly pointed to They are not idiots. They are passing the issue (inability of some people to access housing) from them (the government) to some other individuals. It's some form of unorganized taxation.

leshenka 5y ago
"Surprise wealth redistribution"

galuggus 5y ago

Could you resquat the apartment while the squatters were out?

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Yes you could, but they are never out. You trying to get in is violence and they will call the police to protect them. And the police will protect them as the lawful inhabitants of your house.

Parae 5y ago

I'm from France and I used to go to a lot of squats, and what you say is not true. I don't live in squats but I know a girl who does. She was rejected by her parents because she is lesbian. Even in uninhabited houses, when the police comes, every squatters are out immediately. Even if they have no rights to do it, and the law is supposed to "protect" squatters. I witnessed police throwing tear gas and smoke grenade to get squatters out. And when they are out, the police acts as if nothing happened.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
We have a different experience. As I wrote elsewhere, i know of two cases where it took months to get the squatters out - and what was left was a ruin. The cases in the news you see from time to time agree. Squatting is simply stealing. Sorry but I have exactly zero compassion for people who come to my apartment, that I bought with hard earned money, and fuck it up. This is one of these cases where violence is the normal reaction. I hope that people who support squatters give out their salary and live under a bridge - this would be a true alignement with their beliefs. Otherwise this just hypocrisy ("people should be able to live where they want, except in my house")

ithkuil 5y ago

So what's your option if somebody squats your first and only house/apartment you own? Rent another place? Do you still need to pay property taxes in the property you can no longer use? EDIT: what makes this particularly ridiculous is the timeframe you mentioned: 48 hours. I mean it would be a totally different thing if we were talking about squatting places abandoned for years. Yes you can make an argument about private property etc, but it's a different planet: if somebody squats my only house in which in paying a mortgage, that can easily put me in financial jeopardy. What should I do? Stop paying my mortgage? Squat another house myself?

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Yes, you have to find another place to live. You still have to pay taxes on property, as well as all the utilities you have a contract for. You are also completely responsible for the safety of the house. If something happens to someone (inside the house to the squatters, or outside to a bypasser), you as the owner will be responsible. The law protects squatters in their freedom to live where they see fit. The law also theoretically protects the owners. The problem is that there are so many exceptions (children, ...) and requirements (negotiating with the squatters, ...) that what you get after months (some were apparently luckier) is usually a ruin and you are expected to be ecstatic about the fact that you got your house back. The people who support this situation are despicable. Especially because I do not see them giving their house away and living under a bridge to live their dream of complete freedom. When we will have meetings for the next election, I will ask the candidates about their opinion on squatters, and if they support them in any way, their home address so that can hop in, burn it to the ground and expect them to clap because freedom and equality. EDIT to your EDIT: the problem is with houses people own as their primary ones (and come back from vacation to an occupied house), and the ones they use occasionally(week-ends, vacation, or rent). If there is a building that is abandoned I do not see much problems outside of insalubrity and health/security risks.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  I assume this happens unfrequently enough for being a major topic during an election.

zibzab 5y ago

how about you also move in with them? Maybe invite all your friends too?