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Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. The state of federal law is that y

Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. The state of federal law is that you own your iPhone and can run whatever software you want on it. Jailbreaking is legal, largely because you own your iPhone. The law just doesn’t force Apple to make it easy for you. On a practical note, I’m interested in thoughts on why Apple might try to lock down multicast, specifically, but I have to scroll through dozens of comments arguing about a software system (iOS + App Store) that is now over 13 years old. Is there anyone on HN today who does not understand how iPhone software works? Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story? EDIT - Since I’m still in the edit window, I might as well link to a comment that seems actually useful and relevant to this blog post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28287064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28287064 There are other interesting and useful comments if you scroll down…

Sebb767 5y ago
> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story? Because this is the possibility of people to cash in on their "I told you so". Also, it is not too late to either change direction or jump ship; if we take this without complaining, the situation will only get worse.
grishka 5y ago
> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. Cars and their infotaiment systems aren't marketed as general-purpose computing devices in the first place. iOS devices very much are.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  Plus there's far more mods available for honda than there ever will be for Apple. Modding them, tuning the ECUs, aftermarket hardware and software, you bet baby. The car hacker community is very alive
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  Apple has been crystal clear in their marketing and documentation about how app development and distribution works on iOS since the day it was announced in 2008. The specific question here is why Apple is putting new restrictions on multicast. Unfortunately all the informative comments are far below this rehash sub thread.
  - grishka 5y ago
    But are regular users aware of any of that? Do they know how app publishing works at all? Do they know about the absolute disgrace that is the app review process and the "guidelines" it follows? Do they know they can't sideload apps? Do they know every single binary that an iOS device runs has to be signed by Apple? I bet they don't. And Apple would've lost some part of their user base if they were honest about this with their users, not just developers. Though around me in particular, many people became acutely aware of that in 2016 when Pokemon Go became huge and those with iPhones found out they can't just download the game from somewhere else and install it to bypass the geographical restrictions in the app store. Some made separate Apple IDs for a country where it was available. Many were envious to those who use Android, because you'd just download an apk and be done with it.
    - aardvarkr 5y ago
      Oh no, you think that if only the users knew about X then they would care, when really they don’t care so they have no reason to know about X. Not to get too off topic but Epic thought they’d have popular support for their new App Store but the entire world just shrugged and saw it as a greedy play for more money. Anyways I digress, though you really think that Apple not wanting you to install an unsanctioned iPhone app is going to cause outrage? Sideloading has been a thing for a long long time
    - akerl_ 5y ago
      The modern era provides individual humans with greater access to information and ability to publish information than has ever existed before. If “regular users” aren’t taking the same stance as you, maybe it’s not because they aren’t aware, maybe it’s because they have different use cases and priorities.
belorn 5y ago
Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car. The software techniques to turn every car sold into a leasing service is not difficult to implement. If there is such software is inside your civic then no, you don't own it. Honda does. The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control. If Honda controls who drives the car, where, how and when, the owner is indisputable Honda.
- chaorace 5y ago
  This is why right to repair laws are important. If you buy the hardware, you should implicitly have the right to modify the software in-so-far as it is physically possible given the hardware package purchased. It's entirely within the rights of a company to lock down their hardware if that's how they sell it to you, but it should be equally within the rights of the hardware owner to bypass those "protections". If Honda decides to lock ignition behind an arbitrary clearance check (pulling a John Deere), they shouldn't be able to retaliate if that lock gets bypassed -- as long as that distinction exists, we will always be proper owners of the things that we buy.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car. They may be mandated to do so: > U.S. Senate bill seeks to require anti-drunk driving vehicle tech * https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-seeks-require-anti-drunk-driving-vehicle-tech-2021-08-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-seeks-requir... See also BMW and microtransactions: * https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311332/bmw-in-car-purchase-heated-seats-software-over-the-air-updates https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311332/bmw-in-car-purcha...
- octopoc 5y ago
  > The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control. If we were to upgrade the saying "possession is 99% of ownership" to the digital ream, it would be something like "control is 99% of ownership." The distinction between possession and control is only relevant for smart devices.
sillyquiet 5y ago
> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story? Because people are mad - still, and baffled - still, that Apple is successful and prosperous despite not catering to the niche needs of your average HN commenter.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- FpUser 5y ago
  Just FYI - I honestly do not give a flying fuck about how successful and prosperous Apple is. The only company whose prosperity and well being I care about is my own. As a vendor I do not develop for this platform and as a consumer I do not use it. The reason for my avoidance in a first place are various restrictions put by Apple.
  - xrisk 5y ago
    You seem to give enough fucks to come and rant on a thread dedicated to an Apple device. Maybe just use whatever you want instead?
    - sillyquiet 5y ago
      Yeah, honestly, I do not mind people disliking the Apple device philosophy, but it's a bit wearying to have to dig through all the same grand comments about walled gardens etc etc over and over again in any Apple related discussion.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"You seem to give enough fucks to come and rant on a thread dedicated to an Apple device" I discuss lots of things that I do not loose my sleep over. This whole HN is just an entertainment for me. Distraction from work so that my brain does not melt. >"Maybe just use whatever you want instead?" I do use whatever I want. And what I rant about is not for you to decide.
- api 5y ago
wyager 5y ago
Slightly OT, but thinking about your comment I wonder if there’s any correlation between people who don’t care about general purpose computing and people who drive commuter cars. I would think probably so - in both cases, many just want a box that gets them from point A to point B with no interest or concern about what’s going on inside the box.
l30n4da5 5y ago
> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. I can install any aftermarket parts I want to install in my Civic, because I own it.
- criddell 5y ago
  But you might also make your car illegal to operate on public roads, depending on where you live.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Honda isn't part of that decision, and the laws apply equally to vehicles of all makes. As long as you don't modify emissions, you actually get quite a bit of leeway.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    But you might also make a novel improvement that benefits all of your fellow users. Think about how many iPhone features were dreamed up not by Apple but by developers or even “hackers” who figured out a clever approach to a common problem. I use the “flashlight” on my iPhone all the time but I remember when the only way to use it was to open the camera app, switch to video mode, and turn on the flash. And Shortcuts is one of the most useful app available for an iPhone and it was an idea patched together using APIs in a way Apple never intended. In fact, Shortcuts could be way better if Apple didn’t have so many seemingly random and arbitrary limitations.
enriquto 5y ago
> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation Because there's new people in the world every day and they need to hear this important conversation, which is new for them. If you are already aware, it does no harm to you to just ignore the conversation.
VonGuard 5y ago
Well, Honda does actually offer an SDK for its cars, but it looks like their cert expired.... https://developer.hondainnovations.com/ https://developer.hondainnovations.com/
kevin_b_er 5y ago
> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. You are bound by 17 U.S.C. § 1201 to not attempt to alter the car in ways Honda does not approve.
xorcist 5y ago
> Jailbreaking is legal, Not that simple. Since the DMCA/EUCD, it's complicated.
mcculley 5y ago
Multicast can certainly be used to fingerprint a network. I have done that for making apps automatically switch settings. It is not clear to me why it would it would be different from the “Local Network” permission.
colossal 5y ago
Because its the obvious outcome of the ancap principles that many on here are strongly in favour of. Company appeals to the largest market share by designing devices that work well for the majority of people. It just happens that HN readers are in the minority on this one.
p_j_w 5y ago
>Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. If something goes haywire in my phone, it can't possibly turn into a 2 ton death machine, which is something that can happen with a car. Cars have stringent safety regulations that cell phones do not. So... bad example.

Sebb767 5y ago

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story? Because this is the possibility of people to cash in on their "I told you so". Also, it is not too late to either change direction or jump ship; if we take this without complaining, the situation will only get worse.

grishka 5y ago

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. Cars and their infotaiment systems aren't marketed as general-purpose computing devices in the first place. iOS devices very much are.

calvinmorrison 5y ago
Plus there's far more mods available for honda than there ever will be for Apple. Modding them, tuning the ECUs, aftermarket hardware and software, you bet baby. The car hacker community is very alive
snowwrestler 5y ago
Apple has been crystal clear in their marketing and documentation about how app development and distribution works on iOS since the day it was announced in 2008. The specific question here is why Apple is putting new restrictions on multicast. Unfortunately all the informative comments are far below this rehash sub thread.
- grishka 5y ago
  But are regular users aware of any of that? Do they know how app publishing works at all? Do they know about the absolute disgrace that is the app review process and the "guidelines" it follows? Do they know they can't sideload apps? Do they know every single binary that an iOS device runs has to be signed by Apple? I bet they don't. And Apple would've lost some part of their user base if they were honest about this with their users, not just developers. Though around me in particular, many people became acutely aware of that in 2016 when Pokemon Go became huge and those with iPhones found out they can't just download the game from somewhere else and install it to bypass the geographical restrictions in the app store. Some made separate Apple IDs for a country where it was available. Many were envious to those who use Android, because you'd just download an apk and be done with it.
  - aardvarkr 5y ago
    Oh no, you think that if only the users knew about X then they would care, when really they don’t care so they have no reason to know about X. Not to get too off topic but Epic thought they’d have popular support for their new App Store but the entire world just shrugged and saw it as a greedy play for more money. Anyways I digress, though you really think that Apple not wanting you to install an unsanctioned iPhone app is going to cause outrage? Sideloading has been a thing for a long long time
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    The modern era provides individual humans with greater access to information and ability to publish information than has ever existed before. If “regular users” aren’t taking the same stance as you, maybe it’s not because they aren’t aware, maybe it’s because they have different use cases and priorities.

belorn 5y ago

Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car. The software techniques to turn every car sold into a leasing service is not difficult to implement. If there is such software is inside your civic then no, you don't own it. Honda does. The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control. If Honda controls who drives the car, where, how and when, the owner is indisputable Honda.

chaorace 5y ago
This is why right to repair laws are important. If you buy the hardware, you should implicitly have the right to modify the software in-so-far as it is physically possible given the hardware package purchased. It's entirely within the rights of a company to lock down their hardware if that's how they sell it to you, but it should be equally within the rights of the hardware owner to bypass those "protections". If Honda decides to lock ignition behind an arbitrary clearance check (pulling a John Deere), they shouldn't be able to retaliate if that lock gets bypassed -- as long as that distinction exists, we will always be proper owners of the things that we buy.
throw0101a 5y ago
> Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car. They may be mandated to do so: > U.S. Senate bill seeks to require anti-drunk driving vehicle tech * https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-seeks-require-anti-drunk-driving-vehicle-tech-2021-08-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-seeks-requir... See also BMW and microtransactions: * https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311332/bmw-in-car-purchase-heated-seats-software-over-the-air-updates https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311332/bmw-in-car-purcha...
octopoc 5y ago
> The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control. If we were to upgrade the saying "possession is 99% of ownership" to the digital ream, it would be something like "control is 99% of ownership." The distinction between possession and control is only relevant for smart devices.

sillyquiet 5y ago

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story? Because people are mad - still, and baffled - still, that Apple is successful and prosperous despite not catering to the niche needs of your average HN commenter.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
FpUser 5y ago
Just FYI - I honestly do not give a flying fuck about how successful and prosperous Apple is. The only company whose prosperity and well being I care about is my own. As a vendor I do not develop for this platform and as a consumer I do not use it. The reason for my avoidance in a first place are various restrictions put by Apple.
- xrisk 5y ago
  You seem to give enough fucks to come and rant on a thread dedicated to an Apple device. Maybe just use whatever you want instead?
  - sillyquiet 5y ago
    Yeah, honestly, I do not mind people disliking the Apple device philosophy, but it's a bit wearying to have to dig through all the same grand comments about walled gardens etc etc over and over again in any Apple related discussion.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"You seem to give enough fucks to come and rant on a thread dedicated to an Apple device" I discuss lots of things that I do not loose my sleep over. This whole HN is just an entertainment for me. Distraction from work so that my brain does not melt. >"Maybe just use whatever you want instead?" I do use whatever I want. And what I rant about is not for you to decide.
api 5y ago

wyager 5y ago

Slightly OT, but thinking about your comment I wonder if there’s any correlation between people who don’t care about general purpose computing and people who drive commuter cars. I would think probably so - in both cases, many just want a box that gets them from point A to point B with no interest or concern about what’s going on inside the box.

l30n4da5 5y ago

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. I can install any aftermarket parts I want to install in my Civic, because I own it.

criddell 5y ago
But you might also make your car illegal to operate on public roads, depending on where you live.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Honda isn't part of that decision, and the laws apply equally to vehicles of all makes. As long as you don't modify emissions, you actually get quite a bit of leeway.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  But you might also make a novel improvement that benefits all of your fellow users. Think about how many iPhone features were dreamed up not by Apple but by developers or even “hackers” who figured out a clever approach to a common problem. I use the “flashlight” on my iPhone all the time but I remember when the only way to use it was to open the camera app, switch to video mode, and turn on the flash. And Shortcuts is one of the most useful app available for an iPhone and it was an idea patched together using APIs in a way Apple never intended. In fact, Shortcuts could be way better if Apple didn’t have so many seemingly random and arbitrary limitations.

enriquto 5y ago

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation Because there's new people in the world every day and they need to hear this important conversation, which is new for them. If you are already aware, it does no harm to you to just ignore the conversation.

VonGuard 5y ago

Well, Honda does actually offer an SDK for its cars, but it looks like their cert expired.... https://developer.hondainnovations.com/ https://developer.hondainnovations.com/

kevin_b_er 5y ago

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it. You are bound by 17 U.S.C. § 1201 to not attempt to alter the car in ways Honda does not approve.

xorcist 5y ago

> Jailbreaking is legal, Not that simple. Since the DMCA/EUCD, it's complicated.

mcculley 5y ago

Multicast can certainly be used to fingerprint a network. I have done that for making apps automatically switch settings. It is not clear to me why it would it would be different from the “Local Network” permission.

colossal 5y ago

Because its the obvious outcome of the ancap principles that many on here are strongly in favour of. Company appeals to the largest market share by designing devices that work well for the majority of people. It just happens that HN readers are in the minority on this one.

p_j_w 5y ago

>Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. If something goes haywire in my phone, it can't possibly turn into a 2 ton death machine, which is something that can happen with a car. Cars have stringent safety regulations that cell phones do not. So... bad example.