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Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no interest in progressing?

• fecak 5y ago
  I think you find out what makes them happy in their job, and then try to provide that as best as you can. Saying you are "happy doing what I'm doing" is based on the present state. You could ask "what do you like about what you are currently doing?", or "is there anything you think that could make you happier?" (this question can have unintended consequences, as "more money" is a likely answer).
• kissgyorgy 5y ago
  Just leave them alone?
• polyvisual 5y ago
  Perhaps look into Simon Wardley's idea of town planners, settlers, and pioneers? https://wardleypedia.org/mediawiki/index.php/Pioneers_settlers_town_planners https://wardleypedia.org/mediawiki/index.php/Pioneers_settle... Guide them into one of those roles?
• _huayra_ 5y ago
  I'm not in a manager position, but from a managee's position, I'd say the best approach is to make whatever process for advancing (in salary, title, responsibility) as clear as possible. You can't convince people who are comfortable where they are to climb, and every company needs those people (e.g. the guy who maintains the crazy Makefiles that no one else likes to deal with, but who doesn't care to revamp the build system even though its sorely needed). However, if you lay out the path for advancement, then everyone can either choose to go down it, or not. If folks decide to not go down it, or get jealous seeing other people advance down it, you can tell them that if they do the same stuff, they'll advance too. Be careful how you adapt this to each individual as well. There are a lot of words spilled here about how developers with families are penalized because they can't "crush it" late into the early morning on weekends. The hard part will be managing to make things fair across developers of all backgrounds, as you need to make sure you entice valuable employees of all types to stick around.
• destitude 5y ago
  You also have companies however that only give raises based on what your title is so if you don't "progress" you never get a raise.
• rpmisms 5y ago
  If I were in their position, I'd like continuing education opportunities, stuff like that. Just because I'm happy in my position doesn't mean I'm done learning.
• z5h 5y ago
  Work hard to keep their skills /experience relevant and up to date and keep their options open.
• black_13 5y ago
  Everything is fine I like it here.
• karaterobot 5y ago
  The most productive conversation you could be having is with your own manager, to express how the organization's assumptions about what employees want is creating functional problems for many of them. Leadership may incorrectly assume that the goal of every employee is to get a new job title and responsibilities, but that's obviously not the facts on the ground. They should investigate where that assumption came from, and, given there is data which conflicts with it, what should be done next? The stakes are high: forcing a bad culture onto employees will drive some of them away from the company, and force others to be unhappy, or to take on roles they aren't suited for and won't perform well in. A strong company culture would support both people who want to move up the org chart, and those who don't, without prejudice. The good news is that if leadership can get over the (clearly incorrect) belief that every good employee always wants a promotion, they can make a huge improvement in culture, retention, and productivity.
  • unit_circle 5y ago
    Trust your gut, op! Push up, not down. Also let us know how things go
• hackitup7 5y ago
  Yes it's fine, just make sure they're telling the truth and not trying to get you to shut up because they're about to quit / they hate you. Increase their compensation as their output increases. Be fair, don't penalize them for not fighting to climb the ladder. Check in on their happiness regularly. Ask them very directly about their satisfaction at work. This is the conversation you force, not the topic of "why do you not want to progress." You can be really upfront with them – "you don't seem to have really concrete career goals, but you're a valued member of the team – does this work for you? Confirming that it works for us." This is the easy stuff, spend your time on the bright but overconfident 23 year old who's complaining that they're not an engineering manager yet or the great engineer who's going through a divorce.
  • s09dfhks 5y ago
    > Be fair, don't penalize them for not fighting to climb the ladder. I really wish this was accepted more. FAANG's whole "up or out" career progression rat race has done so much harm to the industry -_-
• swader999 5y ago
  If you can't change your company, change your company.
• sergiotapia 5y ago
  One good strategy is to post up progression ladders so your ICs can see how to move forward in their career if they choose to. It shows you take this seriously.
• tibiahurried 5y ago
  I never, ever trusted any engineer manager and HR. In my looong experience, they rarely (read never) have at heart the interest of their reports. They are there to progress their career, as well as every body else. So, if your promotion, or having you moving to a different team gets in the way, rest assure they will make everything in their power to fight it. Simply put, I don't pay any attention to the things discussed with my manager around my career. I attend my 1-1 because I have to. I honestly don't get any value out of it. I have enough experience to know how to progress my career. There are only two things that keep me working for a given company: - working on interesting projects, making an impact - being payed well enough
  • webdood90 5y ago
    > I attend my 1-1 because I have to. I honestly don't get any value out of it. Yikes, there is a lot more to 1:1s than just talking career progression.
  • christopherwxyz 5y ago
    This sounds incredibly cynical. My experiences have been to the contrary on every point. Great managers do exist, but you have to make sure that you are held accountable as much as they do you. 1:1 time is as much as their job as it is yours to develop a story and convictions in what you need.
    • tibiahurried 5y ago
      I don't disagree. But this cynical comment comes as average on decades of experience.
  • randomanager 5y ago
    Who hurt you?
    • tibiahurried 5y ago
      haha no one, I am happy as ever Lol, just being honest
• tofuahdude 5y ago
  From one manager's perspective - I literally love people who want to keep doing what they're doing. Agree with everyone else here talking about the importance of communication up front. I'd add that it is the manager's responsibility to establish the culture of high quality communication. It's something that takes practice and deliberate effort, and the goal of clear and honest communication must be explicitly communicated. Once we're on the same page about how a team member wants to contribute, then I simply support that by giving consistent, regular raises and staying in touch about how it's going. We're aiming for marathon employment with balance.
• coffeefirst 5y ago
  Honestly, given the events of the last year, I'd expect most people to feel that way. The only thing I'd add is if you're good at something, teach it.
• pictur 5y ago
  I think the person should decide what they want to do. For example, I think that trying to deal with both management and technical issues is an unnecessary effort for some people. like doing something just for the sake of doing it.
• mbfg 5y ago
  the problem often is, the only career ladder in most companies involves management. Some people just don't want that track, and despite whatever hand waving and speech making, there really is no non management career paths. You can hand out arbitrary titles that sound more important, and you can give salary bumps, but most companies are not set up to care about the opinions of technical people from a leadership point of view. So if you are a person who is a technical person, not interested in management, you are likely not interested in the 'talk', as it always is just talk. So your choices are learn to enjoy where you are, or have an endless chase to find a company that listens to technical people at a strategic level.
• blitzar 5y ago
  > I myself am more interested in the work I am doing right now (i.e. building features that deliver more value to the business than the effort/time/money it takes to build them) If your work involves higher table discussions / strategy, bring one / some of them into that sphere on the odd occaion. Rather than abstract the next level(s) up away from them, delegate some of that down which simultaneously exposes them to growth and progression. > manage people's career planning (including yourself) Ask for the same above you of the layer above. Otherwise, talk to them like human beings not as subordinates, take a genuine interest, and you will probably know the answer to those questions that they themselves dont even know.
• srvance 5y ago
  It's the company's and manager's responsibility to offer to support career progression, but IMO it's inappropriately paternalistic to insist on it. And unless companies adjust salaries to keep up with market without arm twisting or requiring employees to run on a hamster wheel to "level up" and "prove they can do the job", the easier choice is to leave.
• PaulHoule 5y ago
  Yes. But things do change. The company will change and the job will change. Someday neither one may be there in which case the worker needs to change. Progression at work may or may not prepare for that. I am not looking for a promotion at work in the foreseeable future but my situation is stable and gives me the foundation to pursue side projects which are outright radical.
• tudelo 5y ago
  > Is it OK to just say, "I'm happy doing what I'm doing"? Depends where you are and what level. I think you owe it to junior engineers to help guide them. It may be that someone 1 year in the workforce is a highly productive engineer and doesn't need growth, but I can't say that is the norm. They may be mostly productive but some experience must be learned, so I would say you should push them to get out of their comfort zone. Some companies do up or out until a certain level, usually around senior engineer. I don't really agree with that completely as I think a codified system like that lacks humanity, but it makes sense more or less. 100 percent agree on the 6 month targets... feels like groundhog day, adds tons of stress, does not benefit employees.
  • zz865 5y ago
    I spent a lot of time mentoring young grads. Was kinda fun at the time but after a while it sucks because you see them get snapped up in the job market where no one wants to hire you because you're just old. I've learned its a much better career strategy to avoid helping others and work on trendy skills and grind leetcode.
• giantg2 5y ago
  "I'm happy doing what I'm doing"? I've almost been fired for saying something like this (that my goal was to perform well in my current role). They wanted to get rid of me because I didn't meet their standards for "ambition". Now I had already been filling a role above my grade for 2 years and they weren't promoting me. I'm not going to continue trying to be promoted without hope, so of course I'm just going to try being successful in my actual role.
  • Frost1x 5y ago
    Well, you have to play the culture game and tell everyone you have absurd goals and just realize those aren't you goals. Business expectations for employees is at an all time high in levels of absurdity. They want you to be ambitions because they want you to do things for them to make them money, preferably at no or low costs. We've really let greed run wild in this country and this is the effect. For a long time it was optional, you didn't have to play these games if you just wanted to live comfortably. Anymore, you have to play the same games just to live comfortably. At some point it will create a generation of entrepreneurs who will realize "if I have to do all this, for someone else, and it's about the same if I do it for myself, why do I work for them?" Assuming competition is actually possible, it becomes a valid question. As an employee you shouldn't be expected to work like a business owner, not unless you have significant stake (are a partial owner) as well.
    • leetrout 5y ago
      Very well said. Exactly why i want to do my own thing.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      ' "if I have to do all this, for someone else, and it's about the same if I do it for myself, why do I work for them?" Assuming competition is actually possible, ... ' Very true. I feel like competition is not possible in many ventures. The big players can crush you with stuff like loss leaders or just economy of scale.
    • Viliam1234 5y ago
      > "if I have to do all this, for someone else, and it's about the same if I do it for myself, why do I work for them?" This thought has already crossed my mind. I mean, I am far from being the hypothetical perfect employee who is simultaneously an expert on all existing technologies, can successfuly manage teams of developers, talks to customers, notices opportunities on the market for new products, and whatever else... but I thought that if I ever became that kind of guy, I would have to be really stupid to continue working at the same company in return for, dunno, maybe 30% raise, but probably also extra overtime and being on the phone 24/7... when the alternative would be to start my own company. Especially if I also knew other people with the same skills whom I could trust, e.g. my former colleagues. So I have two explanations, not sure which one is correct, maybe it's a bit of both... A) There actually are people who reach this level of perfect all-knowing and all-capable employee, who nonetheless do not start their own companies. Maybe they lack the capital: either they are not paid well and they do not notice the opportunity to change jobs, or they have insane spending habits. Or maybe the lack the courage, or ambition, or just have a huge blind spot no one told them about. This might be one person in a thousand, but the idea is that if you find one such employee, it's like winning at lottery -- you let the guy run your business but keep putting all the money in your pockets, and you kinda retire except not officially because you do not want the guy to notice that he is now running the entire business alone. Does this actually happen in real life? B) Of course, such perfection is unachievable. It is just presented to you as a realistic goal that "obviously everyone else does", so that you feel like an impostor, and don't ask for a raise.
• tacostakohashi 5y ago
  If it's BigCo, this is usually managed by terminating the employees and replacing them.
  • codingdave 5y ago
    On the contrary, big companies survive because of their stable workers. There is typically a core of people moving around and up in the company, while most people just work their jobs. Smaller companies and consulting firms are the ones who follow the "up or out" mentality.
    • tacostakohashi 5y ago
      This does not contradict my view. At big companies, there is a stable layer of management who have expressed interest in progression and are waiting for their next promotion / assignment. It may never come, but they're playing the game, management is dangling the carrot, and it's a stable equilibrium. If someone says they don't want to progress, they are saying that the carrot won't work for them, and when someone in management leaves they won't be able to help, so sooner or later they will be replaced with someone who does (at least say that) they want to progress.
• auslegung 5y ago
  Is it ok? I think it should be but in my experience it doesn’t often seem to be. A mid level developer who has been mid level for many years and doesn’t want to become senior level is probably more senior than he/she realizes, but even if they forever continue as a true mid level developer, that needs to be ok. Same with junior level. I had a career before software and I knew many people twice my age whom I was “better” than at our jobs, and no one ever thought to fire that person because they weren’t ambitious enough. It’s accepted in many industries that many people won’t get promoted this decade, nor will they be let go. That isn’t always good but I think on the whole it’s more good than bad.
  • bluGill 5y ago
    A senior level developer should be helping others more than developing themselves. Helping others less good than yourself is a force multiplier. Helping others is a people problem though, and some people are content to not be good at that.
• softwaredoug 5y ago
  Career planning can dovetail with "just get on with the work." Heres' what I do. I look at the team's roadmap. What's coming up? It's unlikely the technology involved will be completely static over the months and years. To achieve the roadmap, someone will have to go off and learn about X or spike something in NewTech Y. If that time to learn / spike things is part of the job (which it should be) then it seems like the career and roadmap planning dovetail, AND it all happens in 40 hours where people can have lives, spend time with their families, etc.
• codingdave 5y ago
  It is OK to say you are happy doing what you are doing, but there is still progression. Can you do it better? Can you do it more efficiently? Set targets for doing the job vs. being excellent at the job, with raises and bonuses set accordingly.
  • christopherslee 5y ago
    I agree with this point. It's hard to know if the OP is talking about title progression, or growth in the same role. Without knowing your organization, I can't say whether or not people are perceiving growth as having to take on management responsibilities? If we're talking about growth as individual contributor, above comment is on the mark. There are still ways to grow as an engineer. Broader knowledge, deeper knowledge, reflecting on how to improve things, how to better connect the work to customers and the business, etc. But, as their manager, you can help them tease it apart potentially even advocating for changes to the IC/technical track within the company?
• tinyhouse 5y ago
  People who are performing well and happy where they are, are great assets to a company. It's also a great asset for a manager. You just need to find the right manager.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• willcipriano 5y ago
  I think the people who run companies hear employee feedback like "I want advancement" and think that they mean something like this program as opposed to not having to job hop to have their salary stay competitive. It would probably help if we were more clear about what we want, but a lot of people wouldn't say that to their boss.
• bendouglas 5y ago
  Kim Scott talks about this in her book "Radical Candor" [1], and I agree with her perspective. A well rounded team needs people who looking to take on big new projects, but also people who become deep domain experts. Sometimes called a "guru". People who don't want to progress are this latter group. The key is to (1) make this arrangement explicit and regularly check in, and (2) find non-promotion ways of rewarding and recognizing good work. This will be dependent on the person, and isn't as clear cut as the promotions track. I think it's great to just be happy with what you're doing, and focus on other things in life. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29939161-radical-candor https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29939161-radical-candor
  • la6471 5y ago
    I think this continuous pressure of career progression is a managerial bullshit , that unwise managers (most are) apply to everyone without any thinking. This ends up unnecessarily hurting people who are otherwise perfectly good employees but just not interested in progressing in their career and ends up demoralizing them. People gotta understand that a job is just a job and the contract between employee and employer mandates certain compensation for certain hours of work or certain goals but not necessarily compensated for working towards a promotion.
    • pc86 5y ago
      I've probably worked on the same team as 100-150 people over my career so far. Maybe 200. I can count on one hand the number of people who: 1. Are happy in their current title, company, responsibilities, etc. 2. Don't want to get a big raise 3. Just want to "do their job and go home" I'm thinking of exactly two. There may be one or two I'm forgetting. Coincidentally they were also two of the least skilled developers I've worked with, I think in part because they had very little interest in growing professionally. There are plenty of important, fulfilling, well-compensated careers in which you don't need to grow, learn, and expand. Software development is not one of them.
      • infamouscow 5y ago
• ravenstine 5y ago
  I'm going to say something a lot of people don't like, but here it goes. Don't work harder than your desired title suggests. In fact, be slightly less productive than your peers with the same title without sacrificing quality. Always go home on time and don't do any kind of overtime unless it's an emergency. Make occasional appearances at group lunches and social events, just enough to seem like part of the team but not be too well liked or notable. Be friendly, but don't buddy up with management. Always be looking for different positions elsewhere or other companies you would want to reach out to in case you need to abandon ship. Have fuck-you money saved up. If you contribute code on GitHub, be anonymous about it. Consider contract work so you can choose the kind of work you want to do (and create a business and hire yourself under your chosen title/role in case you need to go back to a W2 job). Be vague, slow to respond, and not overly enthusiastic when management makes you do "reflections" and "self-assessments" that ask you where you want to advance in your career or "where you see yourself in 5 years". When management walks by your desk, act relaxed and don't look like you are stressed or working very hard; even if your work is poor, management likes the perception of an employee that "works hard" for them. Don't do things to make them think of you in particular if a peer higher in the hierarchy leaves. If there is an emergency, let seniors handle most of it unless you are the only one available to help. Only participate in meetings when necessary and don't talk for the sake of talking. Care about the users/customers of the service you are building, but don't care about the company itself more than you need to or emotionally invest yourself; every company is capable of firing you at the drop of a hat and they will not keep in touch unless they absolutely need to and are willing to drop the advancement bullshit to make you happy. If a promotion is offered to you, thoroughly inquire about the responsibilities for the position, make note of the new responsibilities that you really don't like in particular and speak to your manager about making some exceptions because you "have strengths in some areas but weaker in these others"; use corporate buzz words during your one-on-one to talk about the promotion. Again, always have your eye out for other roles and keep an exit strategy in your back pocket. Working hard isn't a virtue in and of itself, and growth to no end isn't sustainable. There is nothing wrong with finding your place and performing adequately within it. I believe that my generation (Millennials) and later have been especially indoctrinated into the fantasy of the "dream job", the need to always be hustling and advancing, and working for paternalistic companies that "care" about the growth of their employees. It creates lots of shame for those who don't have the will to do what it takes to land the corner office. Most of our grandparents made their living doing things that weren't particularly prestigious and didn't live with that constant lack of satisfaction or sense of shame that they won't live up to their parents success. If you are contributing something to society in whatever amount and you are living the life you want to live, nobody really has the authority to tell you that you shouldn't be satisfied with that.
• conductr 5y ago
  The inertia that you’re at war with is perception of your team from external parties. Promotion and ladder climbing is a signal that everyone is over performing and you are as a leader too. If the rest of the organization is moving up and your team remains static there will be a perception of under performance. It may not be true of course but, as they say, perception is reality. I like to combat this by giving my team goals to accomplish or lead some task on their own. Even if they are individual contributors they can still network internally to put their problem solving skills on display. An example would be if they took the initiative to have a discussion with HR/Sales/operations/anyone external about some pain points and how my team could help. Then spearhead the solution. Note: I manage financial analyst so it’s a bit different but they have an inclination to become siloed with headphones on all the time similar to developers so it could apply.
  • foxhop 5y ago
    A VP or Middle manager can intentionally kill off teams this way too and supplant a new team / culture. Careful out there folks, that's a painful one to experience. Your team stays static or functionally shrinks (by adding one or more non-specific knowledge managers/PM to the team instead of individual contributors) even while the company experiences hyper growth both internally and externally. You work your butt off while people get promoted around you. Your team is starved and starts to show cracks. Your work get subbed out bit by bit as you tread water until the last bit, that specific knowledge is power grabbed away and put on a 2 stream agile program and it's not your job anymore... And that's when the "manager speak" begins about "change".
• antisocial 5y ago
  Please please please incentivize loyalty! I can never understand more budget for hiring than incentivizing your current employees.
  • nine_zeros 5y ago
    Because there is a recruiting department but there is no retention department. The role that gets the money does the job
  • BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    It's not that simple. Loyalty, if defined as 'being with the company a long time', can result in complacency and degrading productivity in line with the amount of critical knowledge this loyal person is storing in their head. Also, loyalty is one of those double-edged swords that is just great... until it isn't. And when it suddenly isn't, it's a divorce-level event. I saw my employer walk a 20-year employee out of the company with essentially no notice. Seeing that, as a fellow employee, murdered any sense of what I thought loyalty meant to this company. One bad example can destroy the entire mystique around 'loyalty'. Get paid for the job you do. If you're aiming to move up the ladder, do a better job than what you're paid to do and let them know your interests and intentions, even to the point that you give them a timeline. But don't expect any more than they promise, and be prepared to burn them if and when they break their promise. Loyalty is rusty guardrail.
• thrower123 5y ago
  My brain broke a little bit trying to comprehend this situation. Apparently you've stumbled into a stable situation, and your instinct is to screw it up and inject instability into it? Enjoy this boon that has come to you, and ride it as long and as hard as you can. There is no better situation to be in than with a competent group who knows what they are doing and experiences little churn.
  • mijoharas 5y ago
    > and I'm totally cool with that because they do it well and are enjoying their work. It sounds like the person is part of a larger organisation and is happy with how things are, but is required to provide career progression planning, and is unsure of what to report up the management chain. I wouldn't take the person's post as "trying to screw it up and inject instability into it".
    • blitzar 5y ago
      > unsure of what to report up the management chain I would tell the manager of the manager that things are really good right now, dont fuck it up by making a happy team write nonsense career progression plans. But because you need a piece of paper, would slap together a team plan and timeline for each of the team on their current glidepath - promotion / salary / retirement and candidates for replacement / managers if team grows / potential head of projects etc.
• joelbluminator 5y ago
  > Is it OK to just say, "I'm happy doing what I'm doing"? Imo yes, totally. But you can always try to be a bit better in what you're doing, especially in software development...the craft has a lot of room to grow. But if someone is happy being a dev or whatever else that should be totally cool, maybe even celebrated.
• seanhandley 5y ago
  One thing worth considering here is The Peter Principle: > The Peter Principle states that a person who is competent at their job will earn a promotion to a position that requires different skills. ... If the person is competent in the new role, they will be promoted again and will continue to be promoted until reaching a level at which they are incompetent. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle) This is exacerbated by the "up or out" culture in many organizations. Just because someone is great at their job doesn't mean their job should change, as is traditionally expected by promotions. You can recognise and reward their contributions and find ways for them to grow further _within_ that role, or in ways that extend that role without fundamentally altering it.
  • dastbe 5y ago
    if youre in an organization that promotes based on potential to do the work of the next level rather than demonstrating you can do the work of the next level, you should run
    • BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      That's how I got promoted, found that I was out of my depth (promoted to my level of incompetence), lasted two years, and I start a new job in a couple of weeks, back to the same role I was doing prior to the promotion but at a different company. The person that's replacing me, is basically the me of two years ago. So that's going to end well... I have learnt a lot in the last couple of years and I reckon my own 'level of incompetence' is somewhat higher as a result.
    • sokoloff 5y ago
      There’s always a balance. “If you’re at an organization who demands you do the next level job before promotion, they’re cheating you of the pay difference for a period of time.”
      • dastbe 5y ago
        > There’s always a balance. “If you’re at an organization who demands you do the next level job before promotion, they’re cheating you of the pay difference for a period of time.” this is true, though i would say there are two things here. first, you're probably below the bar when you first start doing this work and so you're getting to train in an environment where it's not necessarily your job to do it. second, if you are meeting the role (and that role is desirable which is true for all software devs these days) then the the company should have a strong urge to get you promoted so you don't jump ship and take the job elsewhere.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• bluGill 5y ago
  In 20 years you will be the only mainframe programmer left... I've seen many examples of this: people who refuse to learn the next big thing and end up with skills that are dead. You need to constantly challenge yourself. If you don't want to advance either you need to change your attitude and jump into something that seems hard, or you need to find a new path that you will enjoy. I don't want to go into management, so I'm trying to figure out how I can be the technical person in the company that is paid more than the CEO. I'll probably never get there, but it is a challenge that keeps me looking to see how I can be better.
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    Many days I consider in a positive light “retiring” into a mid-level SWE role, content to just grind tickets of varying complexity and pay little attention to the cacophony around me. That wouldn’t be a bad life (assuming I had at least “damn you” money banked [doesn’t need to be F-you money]) Get me a red stapler, please.
  • avgDev 5y ago
    I work with a AS400 contractor, it is all he knows. This thing was released in 1986. He has a great work/life balance and contracts with multiple medium/large companies. SO being the only mainframe programmer left can actually be in your favor, it often turns into short and high income tasks. Many companies are running systems which are 40 years old, large banks, costco, medium businesses and the list goes on. The cost of updating this stuff is insanely expensive and if it ain't broken why fix it.
    • cutthegrass2 5y ago
      The global financial system largely runs on a tech stack of Cobol, CICS, DB2 on zOS.
    • peytoncasper 5y ago
      While this is true, I think it's also fair to say that it's not easy to just become a contractor. It requires just as much growth as climbing the ladder. Learning how to manage your time, network, insurance, etc. In addition, you're competing for an ever shrinking pool of work which naturally limits the amount of work available and thus competitive participants. Also, I've worked with customers that have a ton of this "not broke software". The reality is that these systems present major bottlenecks in providing modern experiences around the data they manage. People spend a lot of time working around the limitations of these systems under the guise that its too expensive to replace.
• johngalt 5y ago
  Some are happy where they are, but most are stuck in a rut. There is a natural tendency to just "keep doing what you are doing", and many people don't have long term plans. For example, how many people sit down and decide to become overweight and out of shape? Yet many of us arrive there by default. It is a similar process playing out in employment. Why many people avoid learning and growing. Not that they decided to atrophy, but more that they haven't tried to avoid it. It's difficult to produce change in others, or to get them to see the rut. If you are self motivated, it's like speaking a different language. We expect the desire to improve to be intrinsic, and that if they have the desire that they will act in a way to produce results. But both are false assumptions. There are those with no intrinsic desire, and those who have the desire, but not the habits/discipline to take effective action. My best results has been to push them down the path. Set the goals and routines for them. Get them moving fast enough that learning/growing in a specific area becomes part of the routine.
  • UK-Al05 5y ago
    Learning and growing for promotion at a corporation means learning how to write PowerPoints, managing perception, managing teams, being in endless meetings, dealing with stakeholders, doing 1 to 1s etc Where as others might prefer learning about mathematics. Not wanting to be promoted to manager or lead doesn't mean not learning.
• mrbonner 5y ago
  They are lucky to have you as manager. I tried talking directly about my promo for 2 years now with various managers. It’s not that I wanted to hop teams but the management turn over is so frequent, I end up having 3 managers in 1.5 years. Nobody would have enough time to write the promo doc in that short time frame!
• rbetts 5y ago
  As managers, we've had many individuals tell us "everything's fine; I like it here..." and then leave because "I'm ready for something new." So we often hear "I'm fine" and translate that to "I'm bored/unhappy/disengaged but I'm not telling you that because I don't think it's in my interest to reveal dissatisfaction to my manager." The first step is creating enough trust and openness in the relationship to get past this communication impasse. Promotion ladders are one (of many) tools for expressing what the company desires of its employees. For employees seeking advancement, they also work as a tool for discovering an employee's motivation. If promotion isn't the motivation - express what is the motivation. Figuring out that someone loves the puzzle of debugging, or takes pride in being the expert, or is a 9-5 journeyman who wants a stable, competitive salary for their contribution can be the key to having a fruitful conversation. Once both sides are honest about motivation and satisfaction (the manager obviously also needs/wants something from the employee...) then there's space for adult-to-adult conversations about how and if those motivations line up. In my experience, managers rarely turn away skilled, drama-free, reliable contributors. But we know our employees aren't totally truthful/open with us about these sensitive topics - so we don't take "I'm fine... leave me alone" at face value.
  • yobbo 5y ago
    Here is some autistic-level honesty that would be impossible to say out loud. It is probably the basic perspective of all disgruntled workers: "I want to be recognized and compensated proportionally to the value I create on your behalf. Furthermore, I suspect that the tasks/goals you choose for me are wasting opportunities for me to learn and for you to grow. Hence, I am bearing the long-term risks of your investment-decisions in my time, and you are reaping the short-term benefits. "Because you seem to be unable to recognize the value I produce, and because you are squandering the opportunity of my time, I do not believe you are suitable for your job. It is possible there exists a job definition for which you are 'killing it', but it is not apparent from my perspective. "So it is impossible for us to have an open honest conversation."
    • johnnyanmac 5y ago
      >I want to be recognized and compensated proportionally to the value I create on your behalf. but who calculates this "value"? And what is it relative to? That's partially why stocks exist, to try and answer that question.
• jeffyang 5y ago
  Yes it's okay to say you're happy. And yes, you need to help your team members learn and grow. If there are no opportunities to learn and grow, you're going to get bored and leave. And most people will not let you know ahead of time, they will just leave. Even if they tell you, by the time they realize they're bored, you've already done them a disservice by not helping them earlier. For someone who is happy, I think setting targets is overkill. They don't need to aggressively climb the ladder, but you do want to brainstorm with them opportunities to learn things they want to learn. Note this doesn't have to match with what the company "thinks" they should learn but it does have to intersect with actual business needs. Keep it lightweight but always have something they can work towards. If they don't seem to be working towards it, debug what's stopping them. 1. Don't know how to start? Too hard? Help them get started. Break it down into easier goals/steps. 2. Current work is too much? Lighten their load or change the goal to help them learn how to do the current work better. Be more efficient, prioritize better, etc. 3. They aren't interested? Find a different goal that they actually want to achieve. 4. Temporary setback? Check in later.
• Pick-A-Hill2019 5y ago
  Firstly - Make sure you thank them for their honesty. Secondly - Make sure they see a copy of their review in which you praise their abilities within the team. That will help to reassure them that there are no penalties for not wanting to 'progress'. Slightly OT since it isn't IT related but I once asked a PC (police Constable, aka a British 'Bobby') why they had remained a PC for 25 years (I was curious). Their answer was - Mo' Money, Mo' Problems. In other words they preferred the day to day life and didn't want more Paperwork, more BS and ass-kissing (sadly a prerequisite for ladder climbing) and they really did not want the hassles of managing others. I did a mental re-take and thought fair enough. I am slightly ashamed that my initial ‘hunch’ was because they lacked the skills or abilities to gain a promotion (my bad and I was glad I asked rather than silently assuming/judging). One thing to think about doing is exploring their responsibilities – Think about their specialities / preferences / interests. If they are a ‘people person’ consider making offering them the role of helping to onboard newcomers on the team. If they have an analytical mind, consider delegating some of the cost centre analysis work to them. Ensure any unofficial roles are noted positively in their next review so that they can see in black and white their value to the team.
• TristanBall 5y ago
  It is, or should be, totally OK. I've worked with many people like that, but particularly those over 35, who due to their life stage were perfectly happy with their current roles, and often more importantly, level of responsibility/stress/overtime expectations. Their roles fit with their current work/life balance. They were, without exception, great to work with, or have work for me. We can't, after all, all be the boss, or the senior whatever. Where possible, I'd try and focus on skills development within their current roles.. directly applicable skills where possible - if not, I'd look for indirectly applicable ( look at the training other teams in the business do.. cross skilling, or even just having a better understanding of other roles in the business is rarely a bad thing )
• NotAnOtter 5y ago
  Stillness -> boredom -> restlessness -> leaving the team. It sucks and we all hate it but really the only way to keep most employees engaged is to not let them become still. "I'm fine where I'm at, leave me alone" pretty quickly turns into "I'm ready for something new, just not here". Find goals that motivate them, things they can chase after. Keep them moving and growing. It's the only way.