4 ms·

>failed to create an internationally relevant social media company Those are pros or cons? >Tech salaries in Europe are now just 1/5th of what they are in Sil

>failed to create an internationally relevant social media company Those are pros or cons? >Tech salaries in Europe are now just 1/5th of what they are in Silicon Valley. Are SV salaries 5 times higher than in Zurich or London? seriously? or you're talking about peak of peak of peak?

pembrook 5y ago
If we’re talking Zurich specifically, the difference would probably only be 2-3X less than FANMAG/ETC. London salaries are high too (not Zurich levels from what I’ve seen), but that market is now separate from the EU. But most places in Europe with tech scenes and outsized VC investment, eg. helsinki, stockholm, berlin, amsterdam, etc you’re talking 5X less salary than in Silicon Valley. Given the tech talent in those cities, there must be some arbitrage opportunity there.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > helsinki, stockholm, berlin, amsterdam, etc you’re talking 5X less salary than in Silicon Valley. Certainly not for the same seniority level (and not considering stocks, which people in those places do get) Or you're telling me that someone making 60kEUR in Berlin could be transferred to SV and their salary would immediately flip to $300k on the payslip? (no promotions/stock/etc) Realistically, more like 2x, 2.5x, 3x if we're stretching it for the mentioned cities > Given the tech talent in those cities, there must be some arbitrage opportunity there. Absolutely ;) Though on SV salaries you're getting paid for the less PTO, the stretched hours, etc so probably not such a big arbitrage
  - pembrook 5y ago
    > you're telling me that someone making 60kEUR in Berlin could be transferred to SV and their salary would immediately flip to $300k Yes. And it’s not just FAANG anymore. That’s a totally reasonable comp at about 30-50 different companies in the US right now (and the number of companies paying this comp is increasing along with the size of fundraising rounds). Also, in my experience nobody is working 60+ hour weeks at these companies (the bigger the company, the easier the job), so it’s not like anybody is being overworked to get this money.
  - durandal1 5y ago
    Yes, I have 10 years in SV and I if I moved back to Stockholm my compensation would be approx 1/5 of what I have now. It’s ridiculous.
  - DandyDev 5y ago
    And what kind of person you think we are talking about here for 60k in Amsterdam? Is that a senior Software Engineer? Or even an engineering lead (responsible for a bunch of other SEs)? Because 60k per year in Amsterdam equates around 4.6k per month + holiday pay. I can hire at most a medior - senior SE for that in AMS (let's say 4-5 years of experience) and I really don't believe a person with that kind of experience would earn 300k a year in SV.
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      > you think we are talking about here for 60k in Amsterdam? Is that a senior Software Engineer? Or even an engineering lead (responsible for a bunch of other SEs)? Yes, at most I'd say at that seniority level, that's why I'm questioning it. (300k is probably at a higher level AND with stocks, etc) (Though I mentioned Berlin, not AMS, which has slightly higher salaries)
    - dcolkitt 5y ago
      > I really don't believe a person with that kind of experience would earn 300k a year in SV. I just spoke with someone two years out of CS undergrad who’s starting at $350k TC at one of the big SV unicorns.
      - ukez 5y ago
        I'm 3.5 years out of CS undergrad, successful in my niche, receive good reviews at work. Graduated top 10% of my class and was hired before I ever graduated. I make 78k in a medium cost of living US city where a 3 bedroom 2 bath house costs $450,000 1 hour away from work. The same home costs $700,000 within 20-30min of work. Something overlooked a little bit is student loan debt many American devs start with. I have $50k in student loan debt myself. We make more than in Europe, but most of us aren't drowning in money like people from SV would make you think.
- j7ake 5y ago
  Is it fair to compare salaries in one specific place in USA versus the average European city ? Seems like you are comparing max salary in USA vs average salary in Europe. Seems fair to consider max salary in Europe when comparing with SV. There should also be arbitrage opportunities for cities outside of SV in USA.
  - ranguna 5y ago
    Yep, doesn't make sense to make this comparison. Specially since EU has a (mostly) functional social security system, which the US doesn't. It takes money to run that system and I'll happily take a pay cut to the gov if people in need are getting "my" money. My grandfather pays 0€ in insulin, compared to the 100s$ in the US thanks to all the kids who don't want to share their money with people that actually need it to survive. But now I'm comparing economic systems (more community driven vs full capitalist), and this discussion can go on forever, so I'll just end it here.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Just compare the median. The median US software developer earns $110,000 (excluding any benefits). The EU median is close to 1/3 that.

pembrook 5y ago

If we’re talking Zurich specifically, the difference would probably only be 2-3X less than FANMAG/ETC. London salaries are high too (not Zurich levels from what I’ve seen), but that market is now separate from the EU. But most places in Europe with tech scenes and outsized VC investment, eg. helsinki, stockholm, berlin, amsterdam, etc you’re talking 5X less salary than in Silicon Valley. Given the tech talent in those cities, there must be some arbitrage opportunity there.

raverbashing 5y ago
> helsinki, stockholm, berlin, amsterdam, etc you’re talking 5X less salary than in Silicon Valley. Certainly not for the same seniority level (and not considering stocks, which people in those places do get) Or you're telling me that someone making 60kEUR in Berlin could be transferred to SV and their salary would immediately flip to $300k on the payslip? (no promotions/stock/etc) Realistically, more like 2x, 2.5x, 3x if we're stretching it for the mentioned cities > Given the tech talent in those cities, there must be some arbitrage opportunity there. Absolutely ;) Though on SV salaries you're getting paid for the less PTO, the stretched hours, etc so probably not such a big arbitrage
- pembrook 5y ago
  > you're telling me that someone making 60kEUR in Berlin could be transferred to SV and their salary would immediately flip to $300k Yes. And it’s not just FAANG anymore. That’s a totally reasonable comp at about 30-50 different companies in the US right now (and the number of companies paying this comp is increasing along with the size of fundraising rounds). Also, in my experience nobody is working 60+ hour weeks at these companies (the bigger the company, the easier the job), so it’s not like anybody is being overworked to get this money.
- durandal1 5y ago
  Yes, I have 10 years in SV and I if I moved back to Stockholm my compensation would be approx 1/5 of what I have now. It’s ridiculous.
- DandyDev 5y ago
  And what kind of person you think we are talking about here for 60k in Amsterdam? Is that a senior Software Engineer? Or even an engineering lead (responsible for a bunch of other SEs)? Because 60k per year in Amsterdam equates around 4.6k per month + holiday pay. I can hire at most a medior - senior SE for that in AMS (let's say 4-5 years of experience) and I really don't believe a person with that kind of experience would earn 300k a year in SV.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    > you think we are talking about here for 60k in Amsterdam? Is that a senior Software Engineer? Or even an engineering lead (responsible for a bunch of other SEs)? Yes, at most I'd say at that seniority level, that's why I'm questioning it. (300k is probably at a higher level AND with stocks, etc) (Though I mentioned Berlin, not AMS, which has slightly higher salaries)
  - dcolkitt 5y ago
    > I really don't believe a person with that kind of experience would earn 300k a year in SV. I just spoke with someone two years out of CS undergrad who’s starting at $350k TC at one of the big SV unicorns.
    - ukez 5y ago
      I'm 3.5 years out of CS undergrad, successful in my niche, receive good reviews at work. Graduated top 10% of my class and was hired before I ever graduated. I make 78k in a medium cost of living US city where a 3 bedroom 2 bath house costs $450,000 1 hour away from work. The same home costs $700,000 within 20-30min of work. Something overlooked a little bit is student loan debt many American devs start with. I have $50k in student loan debt myself. We make more than in Europe, but most of us aren't drowning in money like people from SV would make you think.
j7ake 5y ago
Is it fair to compare salaries in one specific place in USA versus the average European city ? Seems like you are comparing max salary in USA vs average salary in Europe. Seems fair to consider max salary in Europe when comparing with SV. There should also be arbitrage opportunities for cities outside of SV in USA.
- ranguna 5y ago
  Yep, doesn't make sense to make this comparison. Specially since EU has a (mostly) functional social security system, which the US doesn't. It takes money to run that system and I'll happily take a pay cut to the gov if people in need are getting "my" money. My grandfather pays 0€ in insulin, compared to the 100s$ in the US thanks to all the kids who don't want to share their money with people that actually need it to survive. But now I'm comparing economic systems (more community driven vs full capitalist), and this discussion can go on forever, so I'll just end it here.
- adventured 5y ago
  Just compare the median. The median US software developer earns $110,000 (excluding any benefits). The EU median is close to 1/3 that.