8 ms·

I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth

by pkulak 5y ago

I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues. The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear.

nixpulvis 5y ago
I wonder why we even bother trying to support these hardware vendors sometimes. I have been trying really hard to simply not deal with them for my own sanity. Are we not simply letting the leash out further for what we will accept and buy? Are we truly that powerless against the market forces which drive HW/OS sales?
- watermelon0 5y ago
  For some people it's a nice challenge to tackle. Additionally, M1 is currently best? platform when comparing performance with power usage, and (at least MBA) comes in a great form factor. AFAIK there is no comparable device that has decent support for Linux.
  - distances 5y ago
    Ryzen mobile is of course still faster in multi-core tasks, although with a higher power demand.
    - phonon 5y ago
      Actually not--a 5900HX is about 1400/7500 (ST/MT GB5) An M1 is about 1700/7600. So call that a tie for MT, and 20% faster in ST...with a chip using about a third the power.
      - distances 5y ago
        No, M1 is clearly slower in multi-core (to be fair, it has fewer threads). Not sure where you got your numbers from. 5900HX gets about 7800 in Geekbench 5, and the difference is much larger in some other multi-core tests. For example Cinebench gives 7800 for M1, 13800 for 5900HX. E.g. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-vs-amd-ryzen-9-5900hx https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-vs-amd-ryzen-...
        phonon 5y ago
        It says in your link there is a 3% difference in "Geekbench 5 (Multi-Core)" between the two? I would say that is practically equivalent, particularly since 5900HX comes in several TDPs. (It says "54 Watt" at your link.) I took my data from perusing the Geekbench DB for the latest submissions...
        distances 5y ago
        Yeah I agree GB5 is roughly equivalent, others not so. Anyway this is just me being pedantic as so many people seem to think for whatever reason that M1 is the most powerful mobile chip while it certainly isn't. I do expect Apple's follow-up chips to take the multi-core lead too eventually.
        phonon 5y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVsy1yrG2e8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVsy1yrG2e8
  - nixpulvis 5y ago
    > For some people it's a nice challenge to tackle. So is killing a tiger, but you don't see any stripes on my wall.
    - bschwindHN 5y ago
      Sure, getting Linux to run on hardware you purchased is equivalent to poaching. Very reasonable take.
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
        I guess I took the OS X 10.4 joke a bit too far huh?
    - Y_Y 5y ago
      Well sticking the skin on your wall is just tacky. I normally just wait until people ask about the clawmarks and then feign reluctance as I explain.
    - h4x0r12345 5y ago
      With your anti-intellectual mindset, Linux and BSD would never had made any progress. Linux now runs on countless platforms and all of it has been reverse engineered and hacked from the beginning. Getting Linux working on the M1 is a worthwhile challenge for the most talented hackers, which you are definitely not one of.
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
        um, ok thanks.
- diragon 5y ago
  Currently probably because M1 is absurdly better than the competition. They will certainly draw users away from Linux unless either this porting effort gets done, or unless other ARM options that support Linux better become available.
  - p4bl0 5y ago
    > They will certainly draw users away from Linux And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If people choose performance increase over freedom, you can't really chose for them. Now I'm not saying that we should not port free software to the M1. I'm saying that the good reason to do so is because the people porting it want to have it there, rather than thinking in term of user retention.
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      The problem, as I see it, is that "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay to port it. Back in the glory of more universal general computers this was perhaps a lesser spoken requirement of the system. Today, it's clear to me that we are slipping back into chaos. EDIT: Seems like FSF's "freedom to run" might fit the definitional benchmark for me. I'm not really sure how people are going to react to that though ;)
      - p4bl0 5y ago
        > "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway, for now, you have to pay Apple prices to have a computer with an M1 chip on it. If the price is a string requirement, one probably won't buy Apple hardware and rather get something that less expensive and is already well supported by free software :).
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        nixpulvis 5y ago
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  It's a strategic move from Apple to allow other OSses. They could've gone the iOS route, requiring jailbreaking. They know very well how they became so big. It was in the early 2000's, because they had the support of many developers.
  - flomo 5y ago
    Yes and no. Specifically, Mac was lifesupport marketshare until Intel. Bootcamping or VMing Windows was a huge selling point at the time. (But maybe in the long-run, it turned out that UNIX was more valuable after all.) With apple silcon, Apple is dropping what was a huge feature -- Windows. Ability to run Linux distros on Mac hardware is like rounding error hacker stuff.
    - rdsnsca 5y ago
      Less than 5% of Mac users used bootcamp according to Apple.
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        Now, but I expect it was a lot more common in the early days of the Intel transition.
- Razengan 5y ago
  Or, or, or.. bear with me.. do we simply like what’s being offered and nothing about it turns us off to change our habits and try alternative products, all of which come with their own brand of bullshit anyway?
  - Razengan 5y ago
    * turns us off enough
floatboth 5y ago
Sleep would definitely be a fun issue, without ACPI to just do it™ for you. Wi-Fi, well, it's still Broadcom. It's gonna work as well as it does on Intel macs.
caskstrength 5y ago
> I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues. You are right to be worried. Getting all the nitty-gritty details about modern hardware without access to documentation is impossible. In the end this will somewhat work but will almost certainly have worse performance than MacOS with higher energy usage and be otherwise rough around the edges (like sleep problems, lack of support for fingerprint scanner and other issues typical to hardware that are not directly supported to run Linux by the vendor). > The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. I don't think just paying someone is going to help unless Apple provides documentation (which they won't do).
- rkangel 5y ago
  If they can reverse engineer a whole undocumented display controller and GPU, then a fingerprint scanner is easy. The barriers to these 'minor' things is motivated people to do it, not anything technical. This is something that can be helped with money. Fundamentally like many engineering things, it's a Pareto principle thing. You can have a "basically working" device but it's a surprising amount of (potentially dull) work to get every last thing working properly.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    That's why I started a Patreon for this, and set a minimum threshold below which the project would not start. I've been there and done "fun challenges only" ports (e.g. PS4 Linux) and I know things never get to the point where they need to be if people are only working on it for fun. The Patreon turns this into a job, which means I have reason to keep chipping away at all those "minor" things. It also means everyone else working on the project can choose what they work on, and I pick up whatever is left that nobody wants to do.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    Apple is probably actively working against you if you want to get the fingerprint scanner and its ‘Secure Enclave’ to work.
bni 5y ago
"WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues." This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. Its obvious the M1 and its successors have a chance of becoming a well known constant since its a SoC, and not a collection of random components from many vendors (that might or might not have good inline-Linux driver). Intel Macs, other laptops have had different hardware components even for the same model over its lifetime.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  > This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. For sone random hp or whatever crappy netbook maybe yes, but you can’t compare a MacBook to that. There are good laptops that don’t have those problems, I haven’t run into any issues with my Thinkpad.
- laumars 5y ago
  > This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. Not this old trope again. I haven’t had WiFi and sleep issues with Linux for at least a decade (I don’t use Bluetooth on laptops so can’t comment there). And I do use random laptops, including MBPs. People seem to hold on to the same old arguments about Linux that were true back when XP was released but things have unsurprisingly moved on since then.
  - lal 5y ago
    Haven't had any Bluetooth issues in the better part of a decade on any laptop running Linux, and I've been using Bluetooth headphones as my main audio output for the majority of that time, so I'd think I would have.
    - NoGravitas 5y ago
      Counterpoint: I have an old ThinkPad, known for good compatibility. WiFi and sleep work great. Bluetooth? Not so much. It works, but I get lots of random disconnections, after which I may or may not be able to reconnect.
  - 5y ago
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
My suspicion is that you'd be lucky if there are only Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and sleep issues. Considering that the GPU is completely properietary, without specs, and only used in a couple models, it's highly unlikely you'll ever see any driver in a working state for it. I mean, etnaviv and the like do exist, but it's definitely NOT in the same state as say intel or amd. And if there's any type of roadblock (say signed firmware like nvidia) then goodbye.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  There aren't any roadblocks; we already have the signed firmware situation worked out, and Alyssa's Mesa driver is passing >90% of the GLES2 tests under macOS (Apple kernel, open userspace not using Metal). What's left is the kernel side driver. Your "highly unlikely" is my "I'm aiming for an accelerated desktop by the end of the year" ;)
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    Sure, and you will succeed where countless others have miserably failed because ... ? The PowerVR driver is the oldest of the bunch, has been a FSF priority project for like _a decade_ and has produced exactly 0 usable results (but a lot of prototypes!), and the hardware was of such popularity that it is the one used by Apple before they looted Imgtech. So why expect a usable driver when tens of people have failed on literally more popular hardware? What's different this time? The planets are better aligned? For the people who expect to ever have a RE'd driver that is on the level of Intel or AMD's, just go and use any of the existing RE'd drivers on your favourite ARM platform, and check for yourself. Try Etnaviv on a Purism for a couple days. If you think the AMD drivers are crashy, or slow, or use a lot of power.. And ironically poster was complaining about potentially unstable Wi-Fi, which is several orders of magnitude easier to RE than a GPU.
    - neilalexander 5y ago
      I am really not sure what your problem is. You are bitter because, what, they're actually managing it this time? This entire project so far has been an absolutely incredible exercise in reverse engineering, with excellent results, from a whole range of people. It should be applauded.
MisterTea 5y ago
Why all this anxiety over a proprietary general purpose computer? > I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues. No one cared that the old G3/G4 Macbooks couldn't run "X" at the time they were released. AMD is also working on an Arm with RDNA2. I'm more excited about that chip than the M1 as it will be inside of more machines than the M1, even if outperformed by the M1. The M1 is boring as it just comes glued inside of Apple hardware that I have no interest in. > The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. If you want the M1 opened because you already bought one hoping it would become open then you counted your chickens before they hatched. The anxiety is your own fault.
- exotic_00 5y ago
  > AMD is also working on an Arm with RDNA2. I'm more excited about that chip than the M1 as it will be inside of more machines than the M1, even if outperformed by the M1. The M1 is boring as it just comes glued inside of Apple hardware that I have no interest in. AMD GPU on ARM is also likely going to be a good but since that RDNA2 is going to paired up with a Samsung CPU it's not as compelling as Samsung CPU's are not close to the M1 CPU. So far the rumours suggest RDNA2 is coming to Samsung phones. I don't about you but that's hardly exciting. For me to interested about RDNA2 on ARM it needs to come on laptop with a great CPU as well.
wil421 5y ago
Years ago I did a hackintosh just for fun but it was completely unusable. NIC issues and no way to use Ethernet. There were keyboard and mouse issues but they were easy to work around.
alsetmusic 5y ago
> The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. Sounds like you’re already onboard, so this comment isn’t for you. For those who don’t know, you can donate to this project directly. Please sign up if you want to see this project succeed. I’m not affiliated, just a fan of the work. https://asahilinux.org/support/ https://asahilinux.org/support/

by pkulak 5y ago

nixpulvis 5y ago

I wonder why we even bother trying to support these hardware vendors sometimes. I have been trying really hard to simply not deal with them for my own sanity. Are we not simply letting the leash out further for what we will accept and buy? Are we truly that powerless against the market forces which drive HW/OS sales?

watermelon0 5y ago
For some people it's a nice challenge to tackle. Additionally, M1 is currently best? platform when comparing performance with power usage, and (at least MBA) comes in a great form factor. AFAIK there is no comparable device that has decent support for Linux.
- distances 5y ago
  Ryzen mobile is of course still faster in multi-core tasks, although with a higher power demand.
  - phonon 5y ago
    Actually not--a 5900HX is about 1400/7500 (ST/MT GB5) An M1 is about 1700/7600. So call that a tie for MT, and 20% faster in ST...with a chip using about a third the power.
    - distances 5y ago
      No, M1 is clearly slower in multi-core (to be fair, it has fewer threads). Not sure where you got your numbers from. 5900HX gets about 7800 in Geekbench 5, and the difference is much larger in some other multi-core tests. For example Cinebench gives 7800 for M1, 13800 for 5900HX. E.g. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-vs-amd-ryzen-9-5900hx https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-vs-amd-ryzen-...
      - phonon 5y ago
        It says in your link there is a 3% difference in "Geekbench 5 (Multi-Core)" between the two? I would say that is practically equivalent, particularly since 5900HX comes in several TDPs. (It says "54 Watt" at your link.) I took my data from perusing the Geekbench DB for the latest submissions...
        distances 5y ago
        Yeah I agree GB5 is roughly equivalent, others not so. Anyway this is just me being pedantic as so many people seem to think for whatever reason that M1 is the most powerful mobile chip while it certainly isn't. I do expect Apple's follow-up chips to take the multi-core lead too eventually.
        phonon 5y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVsy1yrG2e8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVsy1yrG2e8
- nixpulvis 5y ago
  > For some people it's a nice challenge to tackle. So is killing a tiger, but you don't see any stripes on my wall.
  - bschwindHN 5y ago
    Sure, getting Linux to run on hardware you purchased is equivalent to poaching. Very reasonable take.
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      I guess I took the OS X 10.4 joke a bit too far huh?
  - Y_Y 5y ago
    Well sticking the skin on your wall is just tacky. I normally just wait until people ask about the clawmarks and then feign reluctance as I explain.
  - h4x0r12345 5y ago
    With your anti-intellectual mindset, Linux and BSD would never had made any progress. Linux now runs on countless platforms and all of it has been reverse engineered and hacked from the beginning. Getting Linux working on the M1 is a worthwhile challenge for the most talented hackers, which you are definitely not one of.
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      um, ok thanks.
diragon 5y ago
Currently probably because M1 is absurdly better than the competition. They will certainly draw users away from Linux unless either this porting effort gets done, or unless other ARM options that support Linux better become available.
- p4bl0 5y ago
  > They will certainly draw users away from Linux And the beauty of non commercial software is that we don't actually have to care about that. If people choose performance increase over freedom, you can't really chose for them. Now I'm not saying that we should not port free software to the M1. I'm saying that the good reason to do so is because the people porting it want to have it there, rather than thinking in term of user retention.
  - nixpulvis 5y ago
    The problem, as I see it, is that "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay to port it. Back in the glory of more universal general computers this was perhaps a lesser spoken requirement of the system. Today, it's clear to me that we are slipping back into chaos. EDIT: Seems like FSF's "freedom to run" might fit the definitional benchmark for me. I'm not really sure how people are going to react to that though ;)
    - p4bl0 5y ago
      > "free software" becomes unfree when you have to pay Not the same meaning of "free". But anyway, for now, you have to pay Apple prices to have a computer with an M1 chip on it. If the price is a string requirement, one probably won't buy Apple hardware and rather get something that less expensive and is already well supported by free software :).
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
jbverschoor 5y ago
It's a strategic move from Apple to allow other OSses. They could've gone the iOS route, requiring jailbreaking. They know very well how they became so big. It was in the early 2000's, because they had the support of many developers.
- flomo 5y ago
  Yes and no. Specifically, Mac was lifesupport marketshare until Intel. Bootcamping or VMing Windows was a huge selling point at the time. (But maybe in the long-run, it turned out that UNIX was more valuable after all.) With apple silcon, Apple is dropping what was a huge feature -- Windows. Ability to run Linux distros on Mac hardware is like rounding error hacker stuff.
  - rdsnsca 5y ago
    Less than 5% of Mac users used bootcamp according to Apple.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      Now, but I expect it was a lot more common in the early days of the Intel transition.
Razengan 5y ago
Or, or, or.. bear with me.. do we simply like what’s being offered and nothing about it turns us off to change our habits and try alternative products, all of which come with their own brand of bullshit anyway?
- Razengan 5y ago
  * turns us off enough

floatboth 5y ago

Sleep would definitely be a fun issue, without ACPI to just do it™ for you. Wi-Fi, well, it's still Broadcom. It's gonna work as well as it does on Intel macs.

caskstrength 5y ago

> I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues. You are right to be worried. Getting all the nitty-gritty details about modern hardware without access to documentation is impossible. In the end this will somewhat work but will almost certainly have worse performance than MacOS with higher energy usage and be otherwise rough around the edges (like sleep problems, lack of support for fingerprint scanner and other issues typical to hardware that are not directly supported to run Linux by the vendor). > The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. I don't think just paying someone is going to help unless Apple provides documentation (which they won't do).

rkangel 5y ago
If they can reverse engineer a whole undocumented display controller and GPU, then a fingerprint scanner is easy. The barriers to these 'minor' things is motivated people to do it, not anything technical. This is something that can be helped with money. Fundamentally like many engineering things, it's a Pareto principle thing. You can have a "basically working" device but it's a surprising amount of (potentially dull) work to get every last thing working properly.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  That's why I started a Patreon for this, and set a minimum threshold below which the project would not start. I've been there and done "fun challenges only" ports (e.g. PS4 Linux) and I know things never get to the point where they need to be if people are only working on it for fun. The Patreon turns this into a job, which means I have reason to keep chipping away at all those "minor" things. It also means everyone else working on the project can choose what they work on, and I pick up whatever is left that nobody wants to do.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  Apple is probably actively working against you if you want to get the fingerprint scanner and its ‘Secure Enclave’ to work.

bni 5y ago

"WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues." This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. Its obvious the M1 and its successors have a chance of becoming a well known constant since its a SoC, and not a collection of random components from many vendors (that might or might not have good inline-Linux driver). Intel Macs, other laptops have had different hardware components even for the same model over its lifetime.

the_gipsy 5y ago
> This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. For sone random hp or whatever crappy netbook maybe yes, but you can’t compare a MacBook to that. There are good laptops that don’t have those problems, I haven’t run into any issues with my Thinkpad.
laumars 5y ago
> This is true for almost any random laptop, and has been since forever. Not this old trope again. I haven’t had WiFi and sleep issues with Linux for at least a decade (I don’t use Bluetooth on laptops so can’t comment there). And I do use random laptops, including MBPs. People seem to hold on to the same old arguments about Linux that were true back when XP was released but things have unsurprisingly moved on since then.
- lal 5y ago
  Haven't had any Bluetooth issues in the better part of a decade on any laptop running Linux, and I've been using Bluetooth headphones as my main audio output for the majority of that time, so I'd think I would have.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    Counterpoint: I have an old ThinkPad, known for good compatibility. WiFi and sleep work great. Bluetooth? Not so much. It works, but I get lots of random disconnections, after which I may or may not be able to reconnect.
- 5y ago

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

My suspicion is that you'd be lucky if there are only Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and sleep issues. Considering that the GPU is completely properietary, without specs, and only used in a couple models, it's highly unlikely you'll ever see any driver in a working state for it. I mean, etnaviv and the like do exist, but it's definitely NOT in the same state as say intel or amd. And if there's any type of roadblock (say signed firmware like nvidia) then goodbye.

marcan_42 5y ago
There aren't any roadblocks; we already have the signed firmware situation worked out, and Alyssa's Mesa driver is passing >90% of the GLES2 tests under macOS (Apple kernel, open userspace not using Metal). What's left is the kernel side driver. Your "highly unlikely" is my "I'm aiming for an accelerated desktop by the end of the year" ;)
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  Sure, and you will succeed where countless others have miserably failed because ... ? The PowerVR driver is the oldest of the bunch, has been a FSF priority project for like _a decade_ and has produced exactly 0 usable results (but a lot of prototypes!), and the hardware was of such popularity that it is the one used by Apple before they looted Imgtech. So why expect a usable driver when tens of people have failed on literally more popular hardware? What's different this time? The planets are better aligned? For the people who expect to ever have a RE'd driver that is on the level of Intel or AMD's, just go and use any of the existing RE'd drivers on your favourite ARM platform, and check for yourself. Try Etnaviv on a Purism for a couple days. If you think the AMD drivers are crashy, or slow, or use a lot of power.. And ironically poster was complaining about potentially unstable Wi-Fi, which is several orders of magnitude easier to RE than a GPU.
  - neilalexander 5y ago
    I am really not sure what your problem is. You are bitter because, what, they're actually managing it this time? This entire project so far has been an absolutely incredible exercise in reverse engineering, with excellent results, from a whole range of people. It should be applauded.

MisterTea 5y ago

Why all this anxiety over a proprietary general purpose computer? > I’m so worried this project will get 95% of the way there, and then all the fun issues will run out and the M1 will be just another MacBook with WiFi, Bluetooth and sleep issues. No one cared that the old G3/G4 Macbooks couldn't run "X" at the time they were released. AMD is also working on an Arm with RDNA2. I'm more excited about that chip than the M1 as it will be inside of more machines than the M1, even if outperformed by the M1. The M1 is boring as it just comes glued inside of Apple hardware that I have no interest in. > The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. If you want the M1 opened because you already bought one hoping it would become open then you counted your chickens before they hatched. The anxiety is your own fault.

exotic_00 5y ago
> AMD is also working on an Arm with RDNA2. I'm more excited about that chip than the M1 as it will be inside of more machines than the M1, even if outperformed by the M1. The M1 is boring as it just comes glued inside of Apple hardware that I have no interest in. AMD GPU on ARM is also likely going to be a good but since that RDNA2 is going to paired up with a Samsung CPU it's not as compelling as Samsung CPU's are not close to the M1 CPU. So far the rumours suggest RDNA2 is coming to Samsung phones. I don't about you but that's hardly exciting. For me to interested about RDNA2 on ARM it needs to come on laptop with a great CPU as well.

wil421 5y ago

Years ago I did a hackintosh just for fun but it was completely unusable. NIC issues and no way to use Ethernet. There were keyboard and mouse issues but they were easy to work around.

alsetmusic 5y ago

> The obvious issue is to pay someone to do the work, and I am, but I still can’t shake the fear. Sounds like you’re already onboard, so this comment isn’t for you. For those who don’t know, you can donate to this project directly. Please sign up if you want to see this project succeed. I’m not affiliated, just a fan of the work. https://asahilinux.org/support/ https://asahilinux.org/support/