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Quote: "if Japan mandated a shift to all-electric vehicles — which have fewer components and are easier to manufacture — it could cost millions of jobs and dest

Quote: "if Japan mandated a shift to all-electric vehicles — which have fewer components and are easier to manufacture — it could cost millions of jobs and destroy a whole ecosystem of auto parts suppliers." This is the real reason i think, Japan is scared of the reduced complexity of electric cars meaning that their engineering and supply chain advantages are diminished. Also having a large existing ecosystem built for fossil cars means it is harder for them to change. China is the big winner from that (and consumers from cheaper electric cars hopefully). This is also a reason I am not that fond of hybrids. It's a nice idea, but I would rather just have the electric engine that is less likely to have mechanical issues. The dirty power plants are not the real problem, because when when coal/gas power generation is eventually taken offline this immediately benefits all the electric cars that use that power. Getting people to switch to electric should be be main focus, and mandating that fossil engines will not be sold in the future is the best way to do this.

ekianjo 5y ago
Electricity is far from cheap in Japan now that the nuclear power plants have all been shut down after 2011. That's also a factor that's not going to change anytime soon.
- cbmuser 5y ago
  That’s fakenews. 10 plants are already back online, more are being prepared for restarts. > http://www.genanshin.jp/english/facility/map/ http://www.genanshin.jp/english/facility/map/
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    According to https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5%8E%9F%E5%AD%90%E5%8A%9B%E7%99%BA%E9%9B%BB%E6%89%80 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5..., only 8 are currently online, and that's out of 50 reactors. So yeah, nuclear is mostly shut down in Japan. Call me again when it reaches 50% of its former capacity instead of arguing small numbers.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
dragosbulugean 5y ago
Toyota hybrids are really good imo. It seems the car is much more complex, but it's not really. The electrical motor makes it possible to have a way less complex ICE engine, for many reasons. It's still an ICE car, but pollution & consumption is halfed. There is a reason why Toyota Priuses (started building them 20yrs ago) and now Corollas are so reliable and cheap to maintain that you can find them in any cab.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Yes, an ICE car already has an alternator and starter motor, you aren't adding much complexity. Considering how constrained we are by battery supply I suspect we would have got much more bang for our buck by using plugins as a stepping stone to full EV's.
  - Retric 5y ago
    If your designing a new suspension or whatnot then you or someone else need to build a factory to create it, it’s the same for every other car component. So there isn’t an actual battery limitation, just a question of building more battery factories. One level deeper building the machines or build batteries is more of a limitation which can also be scales up. People point to Lithium as a limitation, but the price recently crashes in 2019 due to over investment demonstrating much faster EV adoption would and is possible.
- ErikVandeWater 5y ago
  Any good sources on hybrid vs conventional engines? I'm very surprised they have a limited increase in complexity. I'll add that hybrids are more profitable for any manufacturer because it means that you can't take it to your family mechanic for service (You need special training and equipment to work on them because it's high voltage). Because the dealers are making a lot on service, the manufacturer can cut their bonus on sales.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    Serial hybrids IC engines are simpler, because they only power the generator - no need for transmission, gears, and adjusting power through a wide range of rpm. Basically generator+electric engine is the transmisson/gears. Parallel hybrids ICEs are just as complex as normal ICEs.
shsbdncudx 5y ago
I used the share this view, but I no longer believe it. The complexity is just in different places. Look at a Tesla, it’s an incredibly complex machine. The ICE is effectively a solved problem. OTOH this is their reason. Japan needs to retool ASAP. They’re the most technologically advanced country in the world though and they have the best process management, so they can do it.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  Automotive EE here. Whoever is saying electric vehicles has reduced complexity has no idea what they are taking about. Literally none. It’s complete fantasy. The THEORY you could make an EV less complex is probably true, but the REALITY is not. There isn’t a single EV in the world today that is less complex than it’s non-EV relative. Chrysler and GM EV and HEV specially I’ve worked on both have entirely separate bus systems just for the power train, this is on top of the already existing PT bus that the ICE vehicles all have. The battery heater, the battery pump/cooler, the multiple charging systems, the additions to the transmissions systems, the ABS systems with ICE that handle stability control were already complex, now more so because they are entirely new devices that bring in regenerative braking and efficiency. All the software has changed around target torques/rpm/target gear for mileage. There is no other brand that defies my assertion. Literally everything in an EV is more complex. Didn’t have to be, but is. Edit: lol first hand knowledge of complex systems, physical layout, mounting, diagnostics, wiring, their signals and data patterns… nope, wrong! Classic HN
  - kongolongo 5y ago
    Agreed people tend to fixate on the engine/motor, which might be less complex (even that's debatable), but the rest of the system supporting that motor is complex in it's own right.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    You are almost being downvoted to oblivion. HN is really becoming 4chan.
    - 5y ago
_ph_ 5y ago
The only problem is, it never paid off to hold to a technology which time has passed, however profitable it was. The impact onto the industry of going electric is much less than missing the boat and not going electric in time.
cbmuser 5y ago
No, the reason is that Japan is working on a nation-wide hydrogen strategy with hydrogen produced in high-temperature gas-cooled reactors. > https://www.meti.go.jp/english/policy/energy_environment/global_warming/roadmap/innovation/thep.html https://www.meti.go.jp/english/policy/energy_environment/glo... > https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.html https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm... Switching dozens of millions cars to battery-electric drive trains is not a viable strategy, especially for the logistics sector. Germany produces 1.6 TWh of electricity per day. Charging 50 million electric cars with a 50-kWh-battery would require 2.5 TWh of electricity. Even if you just charge 1/4 of those cars, you’d still 0,625 TWh, so almost 50% of what Germany produces in a single day. Germany has around 47 million passenger cars according to the national vehicle agency (KBA). Battery-electric cars are simply no viable solution to get dozens of million cars have emission-free. Let alone the ridiculous ranges of these BEVs. A regular Opel Astra Diesel achieves with 1000 km range with a single tank-fill while even the best BEVs will only achieve 400 km on average. A Diesel can be refilled in 5 minutes, a BEV takes at least 30 to 60 minutes, in many cases even longer due to the lack of sufficient high-current power chargers. BEVs are simply a step backwards in both comfort abd usability. That’s why they’re no serious alternative and Japan’s hydrogen approach is much more promising. Especially with passenger trains already running on hydrogen and German company Deutz just having introduced a high-power hydrogen engine.
- _ph_ 5y ago
  I don't know where your calculation went wrong, but it is wrong. It is very easy to calculate how much electricity electric cars would use, as the distance driven is precisely recorded. For the 45 million cars you have an average annual driving distance of less than 15.000km and at 20kWh/100km you get 135 TWh. That is about 20% more electricity production in Germany. Actually it will be much less, as gasoline and diesel fuel production and distribution uses a lot of electric energy too. The German grid could provide that amount of power today, and its at least 20 years till we have so many electric cars, plenty of time to add that capacity renewable. The biggest comfort advantage of BEV for the common user is, to rarely have to recharge on the road. If you plug in your BEV into a plain wall socket even every night, you start with a full charge every morning, removing the need to do on the road so in most cases. The Ioniq 5 already advertises recharge times in 18 minutes, so choose that one, if recharging on the road is common for you, or just buy a Tesla, which are pretty close to that and have the best charging network. If you want to have "green" hydrogen, you have to use 2-3x as much electricity and for the average consumer, hydrogen cars are clearly a step backwards towards BEV.
mtrovo 5y ago
This applies much more to Europe as a whole and I don't see it being talked that often. - At least 9 of the top 50 Germany companies are directly associated with the auto industry - The top 5 global automobile suppliers is composed of 4 European companies and 1 Japanese - there's a lot of auto industry lobbying for status quo in the EU, just see the generalized state of diesel engines cheating on tests and the level of actions taken afterwards to just treat it as a no problem
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  The PR disaster it generated is a different story. Diesel engines haven't recovered.
charlesju 5y ago
I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years). Electric still has the issue that you have to charge for like 40 minutes on a long road trip, which personally seems more frequent than I would like. It takes a 6 hr drive from LA to SF and makes it a 7 hr drive, that's quite material when you're trying to get from one place to another. The new Rav 4 Toyota Plug-in Hybrid is really amazing. 42 miles on electric, gas for the long road trips. It also is the fastest production Toyota (I think?). 42 miles is really a lot of miles for most daily commutes. In the near future we'll have electric chargers at most commuter destinations so that's really a 84 mile round trip which is hopefully enough for most daily commutes. I suspect as electric improves in general, PHEVs can also squeeze out more from their pure electric side. With all that being said, I'm still drawn to the Tesla as my next vehicle only to support Elon and his manic missions to improve humanity. But all things being equal, it's hard to ignore the superior build quality and convenience of the new Japanese PHEVs.
- jobowoo 5y ago
  With a Tesla it’s only 20 minutes to get 80% charge. It would be more than sufficient to do the LA to SF drive. I’d imagine most people would want to stop at least that long during the drive just to stretch their legs.
  - kongolongo 5y ago
    It's still a logistical challenge in places without high charging accessibility though. That 20 minute charge might add another 20 minutes or even more depending on where it's located.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      Are you referring to lineups at the charger? Or having to deviate from your route due to charger location? I have heard stories and seen pictures of people waiting to charge in California, but I have never personally waited for a supercharger on my many road trips. The infrastructure needs to be built out to keep pace with EV adoption, but my understanding is the california problem is more about how long it takes to get building permits in the state than any lack of desire to add chargers. As for poor routing, the fastest chargers are rarely more than a few hundred meters from major routes. A couple times they have been more convenient than gas stations. The only charger I've been to that was more than 2-3 lights away from the highway is Owen Sound, Ontario, but that city is known as a travel black hole and doesn't have a ring road or fast way through.
tenfourwookie 5y ago
Yamaha are in late stage development of an EV electric engine said to be competitive with Tesla. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZCb06SsxI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZCb06SsxI Their ebikes are swell too: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/bikes/ https://www.yamahabicycles.com/bikes/
verisimilidude 5y ago
Having worked with a car parts manufacturer in Japan, I disagree. It's true there's a huge industry for white label car parts manufacturing in Japan. These companies are extremely agile. They will adapt. Taking contracts for novel new parts is their daily DNA. They already work extensively with foreign car companies, so they're not anchored to the foibles of Toyota and Nissan. Furthermore, electric cars still need complex parts! Sensors of all types, electric windows and door locks, key fobs, air conditioners, steering wheels, windshield wiper motors, etc. The list is so very long. I have one wild guess as counterpoint. Today's Japan would never mandate a shift to all-electric vehicles. Why? It would destroy their domestic car sales industry. In Japan, many people only keep their cars for a few years, then sell them back. Used Japanese domestic cars are worth a lot of money. These cars are exported to other countries around the world, where they're resold. I imagine Japan could no longer resell their domestic cars abroad, at such huge volume, if all their cars were electric. Many countries do not have the conditions or infrastructure to support large-scale deployment of EVs. Batteries would probably need to be replaced, lowering the profit on the resale. And so on.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  If it is simply protectionism, it is a particularly foolish one in the annals of economics. EV / alternate energy / grid storage is in "mature production" stage of full industrial scale-up, and is basically already at price parity (EV vs ICE drivetrain) or dramatically cheaper (Solar/Wind vs Coal/Natural Gas). Some solid state battery will hit production, and economies of scale are still in growth phase. I imagine Toyota, the largest US car maker and probably globally the largest, is in deep trouble and is in total denial about it. Hitching your future to hydrogen which at it's best is probably about equal to EVs in cost, and which is so far behind practical use as a fuel that by the time (10? 20? years) a generation, transport, and fuelling infrastructure was built out, EVs probably will be 1/2 the cost they are now.
  - PhantomGremlin 5y ago
    Hitching your future to hydrogen This is absolutely baffling to me, given, as you noted, generation, transport, and fueling issues. Stevie Wonder would have no problem seeing the problem with hydrogen, and yet Toyota still can't see it?
cannabis_sam 5y ago
Isn’t this just capitalism?
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
Getting people to switch to electric cars means investing in the infrastructure. I have a hybrid car and I am not sure it makes sense ecologically. My main reason is the driving experience (especially when starting, it is much better than traditional engine). If I drive to the mountains (500+ km), I would like to be able to recharge on the way. It takes 20 min per car, so if a full tank is 4 min, we need 5 times more chargers than gas distributors. Good luck bringing that power to a highway stop area.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  I live in Australia we're not doing anything to help EV adoption. A rest stop on the main highway between Melbourne to Sydney - a popular route without covid lockdowns... - will often have 4 chargers. At Easter, wait times would be measured in hours if a significant number of vehicles were EV.
xyzzy21 5y ago
Japan is still rational, science and empirical reality based. Unlike America these days. They've done the calculations based on physics, chemistry and economics and the numbers REALLY do not work. It's also people who do not have degrees in EE, ME or ChemE who argue this but they also don't know that they are talking about.
ashtonkem 5y ago
The hybrid was an idea that had its time, and now that time is emphatically over.
aaroninsf 5y ago
I am not fond of hybrids we bought a PHEV because in the US it is the right answer to our use case: 90% in-city, now fully electric 10% road trips which may be hundreds of miles beyond BEV range For us the added complexity is the price of not being SOL if we want to go more than 250 miles in one go. For those long road trips we're getting exceedingly good hybrid mileage. In town, it's indeed proving all-electric. If the battery range were 100 miles instead of 40-50 it'd probably be 95% - 5%...

ekianjo 5y ago

Electricity is far from cheap in Japan now that the nuclear power plants have all been shut down after 2011. That's also a factor that's not going to change anytime soon.

cbmuser 5y ago
That’s fakenews. 10 plants are already back online, more are being prepared for restarts. > http://www.genanshin.jp/english/facility/map/ http://www.genanshin.jp/english/facility/map/
- ekianjo 5y ago
  According to https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5%8E%9F%E5%AD%90%E5%8A%9B%E7%99%BA%E9%9B%BB%E6%89%80 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5..., only 8 are currently online, and that's out of 50 reactors. So yeah, nuclear is mostly shut down in Japan. Call me again when it reaches 50% of its former capacity instead of arguing small numbers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

dragosbulugean 5y ago

Toyota hybrids are really good imo. It seems the car is much more complex, but it's not really. The electrical motor makes it possible to have a way less complex ICE engine, for many reasons. It's still an ICE car, but pollution & consumption is halfed. There is a reason why Toyota Priuses (started building them 20yrs ago) and now Corollas are so reliable and cheap to maintain that you can find them in any cab.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Yes, an ICE car already has an alternator and starter motor, you aren't adding much complexity. Considering how constrained we are by battery supply I suspect we would have got much more bang for our buck by using plugins as a stepping stone to full EV's.
- Retric 5y ago
  If your designing a new suspension or whatnot then you or someone else need to build a factory to create it, it’s the same for every other car component. So there isn’t an actual battery limitation, just a question of building more battery factories. One level deeper building the machines or build batteries is more of a limitation which can also be scales up. People point to Lithium as a limitation, but the price recently crashes in 2019 due to over investment demonstrating much faster EV adoption would and is possible.
ErikVandeWater 5y ago
Any good sources on hybrid vs conventional engines? I'm very surprised they have a limited increase in complexity. I'll add that hybrids are more profitable for any manufacturer because it means that you can't take it to your family mechanic for service (You need special training and equipment to work on them because it's high voltage). Because the dealers are making a lot on service, the manufacturer can cut their bonus on sales.
- ajuc 5y ago
  Serial hybrids IC engines are simpler, because they only power the generator - no need for transmission, gears, and adjusting power through a wide range of rpm. Basically generator+electric engine is the transmisson/gears. Parallel hybrids ICEs are just as complex as normal ICEs.

shsbdncudx 5y ago

I used the share this view, but I no longer believe it. The complexity is just in different places. Look at a Tesla, it’s an incredibly complex machine. The ICE is effectively a solved problem. OTOH this is their reason. Japan needs to retool ASAP. They’re the most technologically advanced country in the world though and they have the best process management, so they can do it.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
Automotive EE here. Whoever is saying electric vehicles has reduced complexity has no idea what they are taking about. Literally none. It’s complete fantasy. The THEORY you could make an EV less complex is probably true, but the REALITY is not. There isn’t a single EV in the world today that is less complex than it’s non-EV relative. Chrysler and GM EV and HEV specially I’ve worked on both have entirely separate bus systems just for the power train, this is on top of the already existing PT bus that the ICE vehicles all have. The battery heater, the battery pump/cooler, the multiple charging systems, the additions to the transmissions systems, the ABS systems with ICE that handle stability control were already complex, now more so because they are entirely new devices that bring in regenerative braking and efficiency. All the software has changed around target torques/rpm/target gear for mileage. There is no other brand that defies my assertion. Literally everything in an EV is more complex. Didn’t have to be, but is. Edit: lol first hand knowledge of complex systems, physical layout, mounting, diagnostics, wiring, their signals and data patterns… nope, wrong! Classic HN
- kongolongo 5y ago
  Agreed people tend to fixate on the engine/motor, which might be less complex (even that's debatable), but the rest of the system supporting that motor is complex in it's own right.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  You are almost being downvoted to oblivion. HN is really becoming 4chan.
  - 5y ago

_ph_ 5y ago

The only problem is, it never paid off to hold to a technology which time has passed, however profitable it was. The impact onto the industry of going electric is much less than missing the boat and not going electric in time.

cbmuser 5y ago

No, the reason is that Japan is working on a nation-wide hydrogen strategy with hydrogen produced in high-temperature gas-cooled reactors. > https://www.meti.go.jp/english/policy/energy_environment/global_warming/roadmap/innovation/thep.html https://www.meti.go.jp/english/policy/energy_environment/glo... > https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.html https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm... Switching dozens of millions cars to battery-electric drive trains is not a viable strategy, especially for the logistics sector. Germany produces 1.6 TWh of electricity per day. Charging 50 million electric cars with a 50-kWh-battery would require 2.5 TWh of electricity. Even if you just charge 1/4 of those cars, you’d still 0,625 TWh, so almost 50% of what Germany produces in a single day. Germany has around 47 million passenger cars according to the national vehicle agency (KBA). Battery-electric cars are simply no viable solution to get dozens of million cars have emission-free. Let alone the ridiculous ranges of these BEVs. A regular Opel Astra Diesel achieves with 1000 km range with a single tank-fill while even the best BEVs will only achieve 400 km on average. A Diesel can be refilled in 5 minutes, a BEV takes at least 30 to 60 minutes, in many cases even longer due to the lack of sufficient high-current power chargers. BEVs are simply a step backwards in both comfort abd usability. That’s why they’re no serious alternative and Japan’s hydrogen approach is much more promising. Especially with passenger trains already running on hydrogen and German company Deutz just having introduced a high-power hydrogen engine.

_ph_ 5y ago
I don't know where your calculation went wrong, but it is wrong. It is very easy to calculate how much electricity electric cars would use, as the distance driven is precisely recorded. For the 45 million cars you have an average annual driving distance of less than 15.000km and at 20kWh/100km you get 135 TWh. That is about 20% more electricity production in Germany. Actually it will be much less, as gasoline and diesel fuel production and distribution uses a lot of electric energy too. The German grid could provide that amount of power today, and its at least 20 years till we have so many electric cars, plenty of time to add that capacity renewable. The biggest comfort advantage of BEV for the common user is, to rarely have to recharge on the road. If you plug in your BEV into a plain wall socket even every night, you start with a full charge every morning, removing the need to do on the road so in most cases. The Ioniq 5 already advertises recharge times in 18 minutes, so choose that one, if recharging on the road is common for you, or just buy a Tesla, which are pretty close to that and have the best charging network. If you want to have "green" hydrogen, you have to use 2-3x as much electricity and for the average consumer, hydrogen cars are clearly a step backwards towards BEV.

mtrovo 5y ago

This applies much more to Europe as a whole and I don't see it being talked that often. - At least 9 of the top 50 Germany companies are directly associated with the auto industry - The top 5 global automobile suppliers is composed of 4 European companies and 1 Japanese - there's a lot of auto industry lobbying for status quo in the EU, just see the generalized state of diesel engines cheating on tests and the level of actions taken afterwards to just treat it as a no problem

FridayoLeary 5y ago
The PR disaster it generated is a different story. Diesel engines haven't recovered.

charlesju 5y ago

I'm really excited about the new PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) coming out of Asia. I think that there is a much better chance that PHEVs are the road to mass adoption than pure electric in the short term (ie. 10-15 years). Electric still has the issue that you have to charge for like 40 minutes on a long road trip, which personally seems more frequent than I would like. It takes a 6 hr drive from LA to SF and makes it a 7 hr drive, that's quite material when you're trying to get from one place to another. The new Rav 4 Toyota Plug-in Hybrid is really amazing. 42 miles on electric, gas for the long road trips. It also is the fastest production Toyota (I think?). 42 miles is really a lot of miles for most daily commutes. In the near future we'll have electric chargers at most commuter destinations so that's really a 84 mile round trip which is hopefully enough for most daily commutes. I suspect as electric improves in general, PHEVs can also squeeze out more from their pure electric side. With all that being said, I'm still drawn to the Tesla as my next vehicle only to support Elon and his manic missions to improve humanity. But all things being equal, it's hard to ignore the superior build quality and convenience of the new Japanese PHEVs.

jobowoo 5y ago
With a Tesla it’s only 20 minutes to get 80% charge. It would be more than sufficient to do the LA to SF drive. I’d imagine most people would want to stop at least that long during the drive just to stretch their legs.
- kongolongo 5y ago
  It's still a logistical challenge in places without high charging accessibility though. That 20 minute charge might add another 20 minutes or even more depending on where it's located.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    Are you referring to lineups at the charger? Or having to deviate from your route due to charger location? I have heard stories and seen pictures of people waiting to charge in California, but I have never personally waited for a supercharger on my many road trips. The infrastructure needs to be built out to keep pace with EV adoption, but my understanding is the california problem is more about how long it takes to get building permits in the state than any lack of desire to add chargers. As for poor routing, the fastest chargers are rarely more than a few hundred meters from major routes. A couple times they have been more convenient than gas stations. The only charger I've been to that was more than 2-3 lights away from the highway is Owen Sound, Ontario, but that city is known as a travel black hole and doesn't have a ring road or fast way through.

tenfourwookie 5y ago

Yamaha are in late stage development of an EV electric engine said to be competitive with Tesla. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZCb06SsxI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZCb06SsxI Their ebikes are swell too: https://www.yamahabicycles.com/bikes/ https://www.yamahabicycles.com/bikes/

verisimilidude 5y ago

Having worked with a car parts manufacturer in Japan, I disagree. It's true there's a huge industry for white label car parts manufacturing in Japan. These companies are extremely agile. They will adapt. Taking contracts for novel new parts is their daily DNA. They already work extensively with foreign car companies, so they're not anchored to the foibles of Toyota and Nissan. Furthermore, electric cars still need complex parts! Sensors of all types, electric windows and door locks, key fobs, air conditioners, steering wheels, windshield wiper motors, etc. The list is so very long. I have one wild guess as counterpoint. Today's Japan would never mandate a shift to all-electric vehicles. Why? It would destroy their domestic car sales industry. In Japan, many people only keep their cars for a few years, then sell them back. Used Japanese domestic cars are worth a lot of money. These cars are exported to other countries around the world, where they're resold. I imagine Japan could no longer resell their domestic cars abroad, at such huge volume, if all their cars were electric. Many countries do not have the conditions or infrastructure to support large-scale deployment of EVs. Batteries would probably need to be replaced, lowering the profit on the resale. And so on.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago
If it is simply protectionism, it is a particularly foolish one in the annals of economics. EV / alternate energy / grid storage is in "mature production" stage of full industrial scale-up, and is basically already at price parity (EV vs ICE drivetrain) or dramatically cheaper (Solar/Wind vs Coal/Natural Gas). Some solid state battery will hit production, and economies of scale are still in growth phase. I imagine Toyota, the largest US car maker and probably globally the largest, is in deep trouble and is in total denial about it. Hitching your future to hydrogen which at it's best is probably about equal to EVs in cost, and which is so far behind practical use as a fuel that by the time (10? 20? years) a generation, transport, and fuelling infrastructure was built out, EVs probably will be 1/2 the cost they are now.
- PhantomGremlin 5y ago
  Hitching your future to hydrogen This is absolutely baffling to me, given, as you noted, generation, transport, and fueling issues. Stevie Wonder would have no problem seeing the problem with hydrogen, and yet Toyota still can't see it?

cannabis_sam 5y ago

Isn’t this just capitalism?

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

Getting people to switch to electric cars means investing in the infrastructure. I have a hybrid car and I am not sure it makes sense ecologically. My main reason is the driving experience (especially when starting, it is much better than traditional engine). If I drive to the mountains (500+ km), I would like to be able to recharge on the way. It takes 20 min per car, so if a full tank is 4 min, we need 5 times more chargers than gas distributors. Good luck bringing that power to a highway stop area.

_carbyau_ 5y ago
I live in Australia we're not doing anything to help EV adoption. A rest stop on the main highway between Melbourne to Sydney - a popular route without covid lockdowns... - will often have 4 chargers. At Easter, wait times would be measured in hours if a significant number of vehicles were EV.

xyzzy21 5y ago

Japan is still rational, science and empirical reality based. Unlike America these days. They've done the calculations based on physics, chemistry and economics and the numbers REALLY do not work. It's also people who do not have degrees in EE, ME or ChemE who argue this but they also don't know that they are talking about.

ashtonkem 5y ago

The hybrid was an idea that had its time, and now that time is emphatically over.

aaroninsf 5y ago

I am not fond of hybrids we bought a PHEV because in the US it is the right answer to our use case: 90% in-city, now fully electric 10% road trips which may be hundreds of miles beyond BEV range For us the added complexity is the price of not being SOL if we want to go more than 250 miles in one go. For those long road trips we're getting exceedingly good hybrid mileage. In town, it's indeed proving all-electric. If the battery range were 100 miles instead of 40-50 it'd probably be 95% - 5%...