11 ms·

Apple Just Gave Millions of Users a Reason to Quit Their iPhones

90 points by miles 5y ago

bebna 5y ago
yeah right
imwillofficial 5y ago
Of all the invasive things modern tech does, I'm genuinely surprised it is the child porn scanning that has the media in an uproar. The media doth protest too much methinks? As yet another journalist or elite gets busted for child porn.
- alephu5 5y ago
  If you're going to do something truly devious, do it in the name of protecting children.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Or you know, they are protecting children? Jesus.
    - retinaros 5y ago
      sure. they can track everyone to fight covid and enforce QRCODE and lockdowns but they need apple to track pedophiles that are on their files… After everything that we know about global mass spying you better wake up and understand that if they wanted to catch all pedophiles they would have done it years ago. CSAM is definitly to target people. theyll beta test it in china first then everywhere
    - dgan 5y ago
      No child porn producer will be harmed, as long as he/she keeps it out of law enforcement hands. So much protection
      - imwillofficial 5y ago
        So you're saying that Apple turning in child porn collectors doesn't protect kids. That's some fine reasoning you have there.
        dgan 5y ago
        I am saying that no producer will be harmed, as long as they don't get caught (duh). Everything else you invented yourself
- throw63738 5y ago
  Algorithm may decide picture of building is a child porn. That is problem.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    The idea you’d accidentally have 30+ hash collisions that also would not pass manual review is a joke.
    - throw63738 5y ago
      Why would I even expose myself to such thing?
      - imwillofficial 5y ago
        Then don't
    - meowster 5y ago
      The idea that people never accidently click the wrong button is a joke, especially content moderators who are most likely getting PTSD from the job. Do you invite the police into your home to watch what you do to make sure you aren't breaking any laws?
  - binbag 5y ago
    What on earth makes you think this is remotely probable?
    - homesickgoose 5y ago
      No matter how smart any "NeuralHash" is, the fact that it IS hash-based means there exists more than one image that maps to the same hash. (Using a opaque NeuralNet-style AI that not even its developers can reason about combined with unknown groud-truths does not help). PoC: https://github.com/anishathalye/neural-hash-collider https://github.com/anishathalye/neural-hash-collider
bserge 5y ago
*another reason No one's gonna quit their iPhone because of this one.
- anshumankmr 5y ago
  I think time can tell. I believe the NeuralHash is obviously flawed and they know it too. Hence they have the human moderators to look through the content. I feel what might really happen is that the moderators may end up leaking someone’s private pictures. I think there was another thread earlier on HN which talked about how Apple’s repair team did something similar with someone’s photos, and there is also Apple’s iCloud disaster that happened with the actresses. But I feel the Pandora’s box is already opened with regard to this. Even if Apple may not relent to another government’s desires to add extra things to be checked for, the various governments of the world may want to implement something like this on their own, if they haven’t already.
miohtama 5y ago
But what does make us think Android manufacturer or Google are any better? It is slow erosion of all privacy. We already see in China and Belarus how this will (not if) be abused when things get rough with a wrong government.
- adriancr 5y ago
  Google refused China's requests and got banned there. Apple did neither.
gorgonzolachz 5y ago
To What, though? This is the problem I'm currently struggling with. I could go to Android, which is relatively good but still run by Google (one of the most data-hungry corporations around). I kind of want the Z Flip 3, but not if it's running the kind of operating system that thinks of me as a data source and not a customer. I could go to linux phones, execpt no, they have absolutely no concept of competence in any form, and frequently die with less than two hours of battery life under their belts. I might decide to root/jailbreak, but that's the kind of resistance that invites malicious intruders to take advantage of the broken security models of our duopolist platform economics to sell my data to the highest bidder. This isn't a rhetorical position: what do I do in this scenario? I want to leave Apple, but I can't find a good alternative and iMessage might be the dollar-store adhesive keeping me to the lesser of two evils.
- quambene 5y ago
  I agree that we only have the choice between the devil and the deep blue sea concerning mobile OS. But why is iMessage so great (asking as a non-apple user)? Is it even e2e? Great alternatives which are not locked into a specific OS are Signal, Threema, and Matrix. Specifically, Matrix -- which is also a protocol -- looks quite interesting to me. Similar to email, you can choose your client software. You are also free to set up your own matrix server but you don't have to.
  - adriancr 5y ago
    > But why is iMessage so great (asking as a non-apple user)? Is it even e2e? peer pressure... fear of exclusion from social circles. It basically has a large market share and people using it dont want to use other messaging tools. This does not exist outside US.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Is it even e2e? Yes
- adriancr 5y ago
  You could stop buying iStuff on principle otherwise they'll just continue with this crap. As for alternatives, anything would do. Android doesn't do client side scanning of files since that's your chief concern. If you want more you can always root and play around. > I want to leave Apple, but I can't find a good alternative and iMessage might be the dollar-store adhesive keeping me to the lesser of two evils. Can't learn unless you try things. I for one am happy with stock android and signal/telegram/whatsapp/sms. I have freedom to root/modify as much as I want, I'm not forced to accept arbitrary company policies.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
If the price doesn't make users quit, this won't either. The users feel the brand privilege and well, android systems worse.
merliossu 5y ago
it is somehow funny that governments could track and force people getting vaccinated, give them a qrcode to comply to whatever new law under the premises of a virus/public health but that the same government couldnt do that for pedophiles and has to push for a private company to do this kind of things. people are not dumb. we all know why. it is because the people that would fall into the net of pedophily are the powerful ones. just like the belgium dutroux case proved it. we all know where it is going with this CSAM and we not gonna like it
knolan 5y ago
The vast majority of users won’t bat an eyelid. Most users doesn’t even know that their device scans their photos already and allows them to search for the content depicted therein. This only matters to the privacy conscious and those who enjoy platform wars.
- raman162 5y ago
  I think most people want their privacy but they are either unaware or haven't realized the true extent at how much data companies have on them or what they're doing on your devices. I believe most people would be outraged if they bought a home and the homeowner's association had the right to go into their house any time of day and review all the photos they took claiming that it's a policy to protect the kids for child porn.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >I believe most people would be outraged if they bought a home and the homeowner's association had the right to go into their house any time of day and review all the photos they took claiming that it's a policy to protect the kids for child porn. On the other hand it seems people are quite happy for the police to do that, at least into other peoples homes.
    - raman162 5y ago
      That is true but usually the police have some form of evidence to justify why they can do that.
  - knolan 5y ago
    People are happy for exactly that to happen when a photographer is anywhere near a playground. Police and private security will trample all over the rights of photographers taking photos in public spaces touting anti-terror laws and privacy. We let Google scan our emails for advertising. We let Amazon put listening devices in our homes. We let Facebook run amok. The general public has almost no concern about privacy other than some limited notion a about the physical sanctity of our front doors.
Havoc 5y ago
I trust Androids even less than a CSAM'd Apple. So where does that leave me? One of the pinephone things? Rooted Android with no google services?
- BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
  > I trust Androids even less than a CSAM'd Apple. I think that's understandable, but it's too broad. There are things like GrapheneOS and Calyx.
- yosito 5y ago
  Check out https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/
BluSyn 5y ago
I'm certain 99% of those who switch to Android over this recent drama will un-ironically backup their photos in Google Cloud. Which, FYI, Google already does the same thing Apple is proposing, and has been for years.
- cageface 5y ago
  The concern is not as much about what this system does today as it is what it could easily expand to do tomorrow. A list of banned content that lives on your phone sets a new and alarming precedent.
  - BluSyn 5y ago
    The content isn't banned from the phone, just iCloud. A list of banned content already exists on Facebook servers, and we have no way of auditing if that list only includes CP. Where's all the outrage over that?
    - cageface 5y ago
      Because Apple is one boolean flag away from total on-device surveillance of your phone. In the past they've pushed back on this kind of thing because they said they'd have to build new capabilities into iOS to allow it. Now it's just a matter of policy and Apple has a track record of bending policies to suit various jurisdictions.
      - BluSyn 5y ago
        If you actually read the white paper on Apple's CSAM system, you'd know it is far more than just a boolean flag away. The system was specifically designed to prevent the kind of abuse everyone is worried about. I've been looking into the system deeply, and I fail to see how it could be co-opted for nefarious purposes without a complete redesign. Even in the most optimal attacks setup by a security researcher, I can't see how it gets anywhere near the worst-case scenario. The worry seems to boil down to; "they could CHANGE it in the future". If the concern is about the potential for a future system, then such concerns are infinite, since infinite new systems could always be proposed or deployed. I would rather conserve my outrage for that moment, rather than be the boy who cried wolf. Though this certainly isn't an argument for apathy. I think the amount of push-back Apple is getting is probably healthy, even if it's hyperbolic.
charbonneau 5y ago
"And if you were thinking of quitting your iPhone over it, a shocking new report might just push you over the edge", said the website with almost 50 advertising cookies.
tjpnz 5y ago
Any bets on when the announcement will come that it's being delayed/put on hold indefinitely? They've completely lost control of the narrative at this point and that can't be helpful if they want to preserve the image they've cultivated for themselves of being pro-privacy.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  On the other hand, if they still adamantly push this feature forward, it shows that there are some vested interests(Apple or otherwise) in wanting this feature in, PR be damned.
arthurcolle 5y ago
Pine64 should just try to get money from the capital markets and charge for the service. It's so stupid I have a new iPhone 12 Pro Max and also a PinePhone but I just decided to buy the former because I just don't have the capability to use the PinePhone realistically with all the services I pay for and use day to day. I don't have the time to devote my time to an ecosystem either, which... I'm sorry but it's true. Apple was objectively better than Google until they decided to start spying on my pics with an algo that has a terrible false positive rate, all the while after basically forcing you via war of attrition to comply with the constant ++ beyond annoying popups compelling you to use iCloud. Literally just create an alternative. The other potential competitor who made Essential (Andy Rubin iirc?) literally just gave up after 3 quarters - I guess he would know how to pull out of a project after getting ingested by Google twice in a row. The ecosystem is a joke. I hope the FTC destroys Apple over the App Store literally just to spite them for this dark move but I'm not optimistic.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sdze 5y ago
Do I understand correctly that turning off iCloud Photos, the CSAM scanning will not be conducted?
- veidr 5y ago
  You understand correctly what Apple claims is their current policy (which, while probably true, could be changed whenever they want, or whenever they're convinced/compelled to by external forces).
  - DavideNL 5y ago
    We are talking about reality here. Not ”what if” Apple did this, or if Google did that. Any OS/company could currently already deploy any change whenever they want in any random update. So unless you have evidence that proves otherwise…
- binbag 5y ago
  Yes
  - lokedhs 5y ago
    But what is the point of client side e scanning then?
    - homesickgoose 5y ago
      The legal headache Apple faces here (and as a result, the power lever held over them by nation-level interest groups) is the liability of storing user-generated content on servers under their control. NOT the photos on your phone, those are YOUR liability. Their cloud offering is fully E2EE (to the best of everybodies knowledge), so doing it à la Google Drive or OneDrive is not possible. If you can not access the unencrypted content and have/will not backdoord the encryption mechanism, yet are still being forced to implement such a scheme by a legal entity, client side is pretty much your only option. As a side-note, IMO the company does not have a strong enough moral compass to assign the required man-hours into a project of this magnitude just out of good will. I would assume they are being forced to do so.
binbag 5y ago
Seems like there is rather a lot of misunderstanding about what Apple are doing here, which is a bit disappointing. They're running an algorithm to detect known child pornography pictures from a database (CSAM). It's run on your phone and the hashes of images are compared. Separately, if you are a child, and I presume you are not if you are reading this, photos sent in messages are scanned to catch if you are sending something sexually explicit. You can opt not to send, but if you do your parents are informed. So this is relevant if you are a child or if you have a child with an iPhone. Otherwise, it is not relevant to you. Please help me understand what is so outrageous about these systems that would make you throw away your Apple products and move to something (what?) else.
- nbzso 5y ago
  Outside of controversial implementation with on device "processing" is the fact that a third party - private corporation funded by DOJ (30+ millions)can change hashes. Nobody publicly can check this because of the sensitive nature of the materials. This system will be exported to all the world.
  - ec109685 5y ago
    They require hash hits from two companies. And there is a human at Apple checking final hits, so that is a way of verifying nonsense isn’t being added to the database.
    - nbzso 5y ago
      Ok. It is ok. For you. But not for me and growing crowd of "screeching voices".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MR4D 5y ago
There is a huge opening here for Microsoft to deliver a decent phone. Since they already co-opted Chrome, I presume that could also do it with Android. That would give them immediate entry with working phones and a known OS. Having a serious 3rd option would be nice.
skinkestek 5y ago
One thing that bugs me is how, on every such announced there is a good chunk of people who want to tell how hopeless it is. If anything that is the thing that makes it hopeless, hearing again and again the voices shouting "it won't work", "we are weak, they are strong". I do not say or even think these voices are paid shills, but I can hardly see how much better job one could do to demotivate anyone from doing resistance. That said,let me add some facts: - we won the crypto wars - we won the nym wars - Google and others have massively upgraded backbone security - Matrix exist - Signal exist - Open source phones, PCs and even ebook tablets are shaping up really fast - lots of people want to do something So please people. Stop running the enemies errands. If you have nothing good to say - don't say anything.
- VelkaMorava 5y ago
  > If you have nothing good to say - don't say anything. I can't describe how incredibly stupid this is. This is peak dystopia. An absurd example from history - "maybe we should rethink the Inquisition, no? They are kidnapping and torturing people based on no evidence" "Don't be a downer!".... "Let's brainstorm on this religion thing a bit with its pointless wars, flying airplanes into buildings and killing people?" "If you don't have anything good to say, don't." Now - Matrix and Signal exists, but it takes two to tango. If you have no one to message there, because everybody uses iMessage/WhatsApp/Messenger, you are screwed. Open source phones and PCs exist, but they are much more expensive for the same configuration and the open source software has its own problems. Just look at the whole Linux landscape. I just looked up System76 laptop with i7, 8 GB RAM and 240 GB SSD - it comes out at 1300 dollars. That's more than the brutto average wage in my country for the same configuration that costs about 700 dollars if you buy from mainstream brands. I got disillusioned with open source when I tried connecting an iPhone to Linux. This is what it looks like in 2021 - https://itsfoss.com/iphone-antergos-linux/ https://itsfoss.com/iphone-antergos-linux/ . Full of esoteric terminal commands which operate a program written by some dude from who knows where with no guarantees what it really does, because I am not gonna bother learning about iPhone+Linux+USB delicacies enough to understand that code. So in my opinion, it's easier to actually regulate the big corp overlords.
  - 5y ago
DavideNL 5y ago
The title of this article is so hyperbolic… a click bait. It’s kind of sad, it seems any kind of rational discussion about this topic is impossible.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nbzso 5y ago
I am typing this from the porch with Macbook Air with freshly installed PopOS. The feeling of control over my computer is removing the lack of macOS polish. I know that less than 5% of "outraged" users will abandon the ecosystem . The other 95+ will continue to buy and use everything Apple. They got us all by the balls. I am switching to flip-phone and waiting for Xperia (SailfisOS). This thing that Apple created ruined all respect and motivated me (finally) to move to FOSS for the most part.

90 points by miles 5y ago

yeah right

Of all the invasive things modern tech does, I'm genuinely surprised it is the child porn scanning that has the media in an uproar. The media doth protest too much methinks? As yet another journalist or elite gets busted for child porn.

alephu5 5y ago
If you're going to do something truly devious, do it in the name of protecting children.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Or you know, they are protecting children? Jesus.
  - retinaros 5y ago
    sure. they can track everyone to fight covid and enforce QRCODE and lockdowns but they need apple to track pedophiles that are on their files… After everything that we know about global mass spying you better wake up and understand that if they wanted to catch all pedophiles they would have done it years ago. CSAM is definitly to target people. theyll beta test it in china first then everywhere
  - dgan 5y ago
    No child porn producer will be harmed, as long as he/she keeps it out of law enforcement hands. So much protection
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      So you're saying that Apple turning in child porn collectors doesn't protect kids. That's some fine reasoning you have there.
      - dgan 5y ago
        I am saying that no producer will be harmed, as long as they don't get caught (duh). Everything else you invented yourself
throw63738 5y ago
Algorithm may decide picture of building is a child porn. That is problem.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  The idea you’d accidentally have 30+ hash collisions that also would not pass manual review is a joke.
  - throw63738 5y ago
    Why would I even expose myself to such thing?
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Then don't
  - meowster 5y ago
    The idea that people never accidently click the wrong button is a joke, especially content moderators who are most likely getting PTSD from the job. Do you invite the police into your home to watch what you do to make sure you aren't breaking any laws?
- binbag 5y ago
  What on earth makes you think this is remotely probable?
  - homesickgoose 5y ago
    No matter how smart any "NeuralHash" is, the fact that it IS hash-based means there exists more than one image that maps to the same hash. (Using a opaque NeuralNet-style AI that not even its developers can reason about combined with unknown groud-truths does not help). PoC: https://github.com/anishathalye/neural-hash-collider https://github.com/anishathalye/neural-hash-collider

bserge 5y ago

*another reason No one's gonna quit their iPhone because of this one.

anshumankmr 5y ago
I think time can tell. I believe the NeuralHash is obviously flawed and they know it too. Hence they have the human moderators to look through the content. I feel what might really happen is that the moderators may end up leaking someone’s private pictures. I think there was another thread earlier on HN which talked about how Apple’s repair team did something similar with someone’s photos, and there is also Apple’s iCloud disaster that happened with the actresses. But I feel the Pandora’s box is already opened with regard to this. Even if Apple may not relent to another government’s desires to add extra things to be checked for, the various governments of the world may want to implement something like this on their own, if they haven’t already.

miohtama 5y ago

But what does make us think Android manufacturer or Google are any better? It is slow erosion of all privacy. We already see in China and Belarus how this will (not if) be abused when things get rough with a wrong government.

adriancr 5y ago
Google refused China's requests and got banned there. Apple did neither.

gorgonzolachz 5y ago

To What, though? This is the problem I'm currently struggling with. I could go to Android, which is relatively good but still run by Google (one of the most data-hungry corporations around). I kind of want the Z Flip 3, but not if it's running the kind of operating system that thinks of me as a data source and not a customer. I could go to linux phones, execpt no, they have absolutely no concept of competence in any form, and frequently die with less than two hours of battery life under their belts. I might decide to root/jailbreak, but that's the kind of resistance that invites malicious intruders to take advantage of the broken security models of our duopolist platform economics to sell my data to the highest bidder. This isn't a rhetorical position: what do I do in this scenario? I want to leave Apple, but I can't find a good alternative and iMessage might be the dollar-store adhesive keeping me to the lesser of two evils.

quambene 5y ago
I agree that we only have the choice between the devil and the deep blue sea concerning mobile OS. But why is iMessage so great (asking as a non-apple user)? Is it even e2e? Great alternatives which are not locked into a specific OS are Signal, Threema, and Matrix. Specifically, Matrix -- which is also a protocol -- looks quite interesting to me. Similar to email, you can choose your client software. You are also free to set up your own matrix server but you don't have to.
- adriancr 5y ago
  > But why is iMessage so great (asking as a non-apple user)? Is it even e2e? peer pressure... fear of exclusion from social circles. It basically has a large market share and people using it dont want to use other messaging tools. This does not exist outside US.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Is it even e2e? Yes
adriancr 5y ago
You could stop buying iStuff on principle otherwise they'll just continue with this crap. As for alternatives, anything would do. Android doesn't do client side scanning of files since that's your chief concern. If you want more you can always root and play around. > I want to leave Apple, but I can't find a good alternative and iMessage might be the dollar-store adhesive keeping me to the lesser of two evils. Can't learn unless you try things. I for one am happy with stock android and signal/telegram/whatsapp/sms. I have freedom to root/modify as much as I want, I'm not forced to accept arbitrary company policies.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

If the price doesn't make users quit, this won't either. The users feel the brand privilege and well, android systems worse.

merliossu 5y ago

it is somehow funny that governments could track and force people getting vaccinated, give them a qrcode to comply to whatever new law under the premises of a virus/public health but that the same government couldnt do that for pedophiles and has to push for a private company to do this kind of things. people are not dumb. we all know why. it is because the people that would fall into the net of pedophily are the powerful ones. just like the belgium dutroux case proved it. we all know where it is going with this CSAM and we not gonna like it

knolan 5y ago

The vast majority of users won’t bat an eyelid. Most users doesn’t even know that their device scans their photos already and allows them to search for the content depicted therein. This only matters to the privacy conscious and those who enjoy platform wars.

raman162 5y ago
I think most people want their privacy but they are either unaware or haven't realized the true extent at how much data companies have on them or what they're doing on your devices. I believe most people would be outraged if they bought a home and the homeowner's association had the right to go into their house any time of day and review all the photos they took claiming that it's a policy to protect the kids for child porn.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >I believe most people would be outraged if they bought a home and the homeowner's association had the right to go into their house any time of day and review all the photos they took claiming that it's a policy to protect the kids for child porn. On the other hand it seems people are quite happy for the police to do that, at least into other peoples homes.
  - raman162 5y ago
    That is true but usually the police have some form of evidence to justify why they can do that.
- knolan 5y ago
  People are happy for exactly that to happen when a photographer is anywhere near a playground. Police and private security will trample all over the rights of photographers taking photos in public spaces touting anti-terror laws and privacy. We let Google scan our emails for advertising. We let Amazon put listening devices in our homes. We let Facebook run amok. The general public has almost no concern about privacy other than some limited notion a about the physical sanctity of our front doors.

Havoc 5y ago

I trust Androids even less than a CSAM'd Apple. So where does that leave me? One of the pinephone things? Rooted Android with no google services?

BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
> I trust Androids even less than a CSAM'd Apple. I think that's understandable, but it's too broad. There are things like GrapheneOS and Calyx.
yosito 5y ago
Check out https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/

BluSyn 5y ago

I'm certain 99% of those who switch to Android over this recent drama will un-ironically backup their photos in Google Cloud. Which, FYI, Google already does the same thing Apple is proposing, and has been for years.

cageface 5y ago
The concern is not as much about what this system does today as it is what it could easily expand to do tomorrow. A list of banned content that lives on your phone sets a new and alarming precedent.
- BluSyn 5y ago
  The content isn't banned from the phone, just iCloud. A list of banned content already exists on Facebook servers, and we have no way of auditing if that list only includes CP. Where's all the outrage over that?
  - cageface 5y ago
    Because Apple is one boolean flag away from total on-device surveillance of your phone. In the past they've pushed back on this kind of thing because they said they'd have to build new capabilities into iOS to allow it. Now it's just a matter of policy and Apple has a track record of bending policies to suit various jurisdictions.
    - BluSyn 5y ago
      If you actually read the white paper on Apple's CSAM system, you'd know it is far more than just a boolean flag away. The system was specifically designed to prevent the kind of abuse everyone is worried about. I've been looking into the system deeply, and I fail to see how it could be co-opted for nefarious purposes without a complete redesign. Even in the most optimal attacks setup by a security researcher, I can't see how it gets anywhere near the worst-case scenario. The worry seems to boil down to; "they could CHANGE it in the future". If the concern is about the potential for a future system, then such concerns are infinite, since infinite new systems could always be proposed or deployed. I would rather conserve my outrage for that moment, rather than be the boy who cried wolf. Though this certainly isn't an argument for apathy. I think the amount of push-back Apple is getting is probably healthy, even if it's hyperbolic.

charbonneau 5y ago

"And if you were thinking of quitting your iPhone over it, a shocking new report might just push you over the edge", said the website with almost 50 advertising cookies.

tjpnz 5y ago

Any bets on when the announcement will come that it's being delayed/put on hold indefinitely? They've completely lost control of the narrative at this point and that can't be helpful if they want to preserve the image they've cultivated for themselves of being pro-privacy.

arvinsim 5y ago
On the other hand, if they still adamantly push this feature forward, it shows that there are some vested interests(Apple or otherwise) in wanting this feature in, PR be damned.

arthurcolle 5y ago

Pine64 should just try to get money from the capital markets and charge for the service. It's so stupid I have a new iPhone 12 Pro Max and also a PinePhone but I just decided to buy the former because I just don't have the capability to use the PinePhone realistically with all the services I pay for and use day to day. I don't have the time to devote my time to an ecosystem either, which... I'm sorry but it's true. Apple was objectively better than Google until they decided to start spying on my pics with an algo that has a terrible false positive rate, all the while after basically forcing you via war of attrition to comply with the constant ++ beyond annoying popups compelling you to use iCloud. Literally just create an alternative. The other potential competitor who made Essential (Andy Rubin iirc?) literally just gave up after 3 quarters - I guess he would know how to pull out of a project after getting ingested by Google twice in a row. The ecosystem is a joke. I hope the FTC destroys Apple over the App Store literally just to spite them for this dark move but I'm not optimistic.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sdze 5y ago

Do I understand correctly that turning off iCloud Photos, the CSAM scanning will not be conducted?

veidr 5y ago
You understand correctly what Apple claims is their current policy (which, while probably true, could be changed whenever they want, or whenever they're convinced/compelled to by external forces).
- DavideNL 5y ago
  We are talking about reality here. Not ”what if” Apple did this, or if Google did that. Any OS/company could currently already deploy any change whenever they want in any random update. So unless you have evidence that proves otherwise…
binbag 5y ago
Yes
- lokedhs 5y ago
  But what is the point of client side e scanning then?
  - homesickgoose 5y ago
    The legal headache Apple faces here (and as a result, the power lever held over them by nation-level interest groups) is the liability of storing user-generated content on servers under their control. NOT the photos on your phone, those are YOUR liability. Their cloud offering is fully E2EE (to the best of everybodies knowledge), so doing it à la Google Drive or OneDrive is not possible. If you can not access the unencrypted content and have/will not backdoord the encryption mechanism, yet are still being forced to implement such a scheme by a legal entity, client side is pretty much your only option. As a side-note, IMO the company does not have a strong enough moral compass to assign the required man-hours into a project of this magnitude just out of good will. I would assume they are being forced to do so.

binbag 5y ago

Seems like there is rather a lot of misunderstanding about what Apple are doing here, which is a bit disappointing. They're running an algorithm to detect known child pornography pictures from a database (CSAM). It's run on your phone and the hashes of images are compared. Separately, if you are a child, and I presume you are not if you are reading this, photos sent in messages are scanned to catch if you are sending something sexually explicit. You can opt not to send, but if you do your parents are informed. So this is relevant if you are a child or if you have a child with an iPhone. Otherwise, it is not relevant to you. Please help me understand what is so outrageous about these systems that would make you throw away your Apple products and move to something (what?) else.

nbzso 5y ago
Outside of controversial implementation with on device "processing" is the fact that a third party - private corporation funded by DOJ (30+ millions)can change hashes. Nobody publicly can check this because of the sensitive nature of the materials. This system will be exported to all the world.
- ec109685 5y ago
  They require hash hits from two companies. And there is a human at Apple checking final hits, so that is a way of verifying nonsense isn’t being added to the database.
  - nbzso 5y ago
    Ok. It is ok. For you. But not for me and growing crowd of "screeching voices".

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MR4D 5y ago

There is a huge opening here for Microsoft to deliver a decent phone. Since they already co-opted Chrome, I presume that could also do it with Android. That would give them immediate entry with working phones and a known OS. Having a serious 3rd option would be nice.

skinkestek 5y ago

One thing that bugs me is how, on every such announced there is a good chunk of people who want to tell how hopeless it is. If anything that is the thing that makes it hopeless, hearing again and again the voices shouting "it won't work", "we are weak, they are strong". I do not say or even think these voices are paid shills, but I can hardly see how much better job one could do to demotivate anyone from doing resistance. That said,let me add some facts: - we won the crypto wars - we won the nym wars - Google and others have massively upgraded backbone security - Matrix exist - Signal exist - Open source phones, PCs and even ebook tablets are shaping up really fast - lots of people want to do something So please people. Stop running the enemies errands. If you have nothing good to say - don't say anything.

VelkaMorava 5y ago
> If you have nothing good to say - don't say anything. I can't describe how incredibly stupid this is. This is peak dystopia. An absurd example from history - "maybe we should rethink the Inquisition, no? They are kidnapping and torturing people based on no evidence" "Don't be a downer!".... "Let's brainstorm on this religion thing a bit with its pointless wars, flying airplanes into buildings and killing people?" "If you don't have anything good to say, don't." Now - Matrix and Signal exists, but it takes two to tango. If you have no one to message there, because everybody uses iMessage/WhatsApp/Messenger, you are screwed. Open source phones and PCs exist, but they are much more expensive for the same configuration and the open source software has its own problems. Just look at the whole Linux landscape. I just looked up System76 laptop with i7, 8 GB RAM and 240 GB SSD - it comes out at 1300 dollars. That's more than the brutto average wage in my country for the same configuration that costs about 700 dollars if you buy from mainstream brands. I got disillusioned with open source when I tried connecting an iPhone to Linux. This is what it looks like in 2021 - https://itsfoss.com/iphone-antergos-linux/ https://itsfoss.com/iphone-antergos-linux/ . Full of esoteric terminal commands which operate a program written by some dude from who knows where with no guarantees what it really does, because I am not gonna bother learning about iPhone+Linux+USB delicacies enough to understand that code. So in my opinion, it's easier to actually regulate the big corp overlords.
- 5y ago

DavideNL 5y ago

The title of this article is so hyperbolic… a click bait. It’s kind of sad, it seems any kind of rational discussion about this topic is impossible.

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nbzso 5y ago

I am typing this from the porch with Macbook Air with freshly installed PopOS. The feeling of control over my computer is removing the lack of macOS polish. I know that less than 5% of "outraged" users will abandon the ecosystem . The other 95+ will continue to buy and use everything Apple. They got us all by the balls. I am switching to flip-phone and waiting for Xperia (SailfisOS). This thing that Apple created ruined all respect and motivated me (finally) to move to FOSS for the most part.