8 ms·

Plot thickens in Airbnb vacation rental horror story

166 points by felipemnoa 15y ago

munchhausen 15y ago
This article, as far as I can tell, does not contain any new information about the EJ saga. I am quite confident that, had the subject matter of the submission not been AirBnB (and thus killing it might give rise to accusations of censorship on part of YC), this submission would have been killed as a dupe, and rightly so. What is the point of submitting the same story over and over again, albeit from different news sources? The fact that it has 98 points at the moment is proof that the angry mob PG was talking about¹ is a reality. It's sad to see this kind of behavior on HN. ¹ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822860 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822860
- blumentopf 15y ago
  Yes, but the same is true for Bitcoin and other topics. It's human nature. People vent their anger by upvoting and commenting on this stuff. Give 'em a break, it's just two or three additional entries in the Top 30.
- mcantelon 15y ago
  I think the significance of it is that the story has hit USA Today and AirBnB still hasn't done anything to make the victim happy.
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- kyro 15y ago
  Do you have some sort of personal interest in this story? Your only comments since you've created your account a day ago have been made in relation to this whole AirBnB situation. Edit: Reply was to jcunningham.
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    - jsavimbi 15y ago
      Yeah. Ok.
  - theclay 15y ago
    Wow! Here today, gone tomorrow. Good call Kyro!
- jsavimbi 15y ago
  > This is proof positive that Chesky lied in his written statements over the last few days when he said there is a suspect in custody. I don't think a recap of the story as related to us by USA Today, not exactly an investigative outfit, sheds any new light nor does it provide proof of anything. Nor does the one posted in the Chronicle. This hide and go seek game that EJ is playing is allowing her to avoid any scrutiny while she hides behind her blog. Personally, I think Balloon Boy's father has something to do with this. Also, last time I checked, Brian Chesky was not in the employ of the SFPD as a jailer nor does he have any legal connection, responsibility or obligation to the accused.
- sp332 15y ago
  If Airbnb worked with the police, and the police said they had someone in custody, maybe he didn't know that she might have been released. Anyway, maybe she hasn't been released but was transferred to county.
- kwis 15y ago
  What's the point of an apology? Homeaway.com, VRBO.com, and roomarama.com all offer similar products, and they built their businesses without dishonesty or spam.
- jmtame 15y ago
  How does this mean Chesky lied? If they moved Faith Clinton to another county where she had warrants out for her arrest, then she's still in custody. That hasn't been confirmed. Brian wrote the response on Thursday, but the article doesn't say when Faith Clinton was out of custody. The response could have been referring to a conversation Brian had with police earlier, not literally the day of writing the post (unless he specified the timing otherwise).
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kgtm 15y ago
"Obviously, the financial damages have been significant, but it has come down to a matter of principle and how I feel they disregarded me and my situation," she said. "I still hurt, and I don't know how you make that right." But she does know. She implicitly states that Airbnb should have reimbursed her for her financial losses, and since they didn't nudge, she will now crucify them because of her "principles". By all means i was sympathetic towards her, but this is getting tiring. Spiteful even.
- famousactress 15y ago
  Yeah.. but being disappointed with how EJ and AirBnB handled the situation aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I frankly don't care all that much how gracefully someone who's apartment gets ransacked handles things. It's not as material to me as the way a company that I might choose to do business with handles the situation.
  - kgtm 15y ago
    It seems like AirBnB is now, because of this event, creating a framework to shield the company and their users from similar mishaps (details provided in the article). Which shows they are listening. I think they should be judged on that framework, when it is finally in place, instead of this single incident.
    - bbb7777777 15y ago
      You make a good point about judging them on how well they learn from this mistake. My concern is they may come up with a good framework, but then can't execute the solution well. In this case the solution means little. And this incident has cast doubt on their ability to execute. Then again, it may only be one bad incident, and every small company has those. What troubles me most is the claim they attempted to cover it up, so I'm not sure how many times an incident like this has happened.
      - chrischen 15y ago
        They didn't attempt to "cover it up." That's just media spin. They attempted to resolve the matter silently, which, honestly, is a perfectly reasonable request. But clearly the issue is beyond reconciliation as the woman is requesting something Airbnb can't fix (and technically didn't cause). Perhaps exposing the situation to the world might help her find the "problem" and thus the solution.
andrewljohnson 15y ago
This is a little out of hand now, and it really isn't because of anything fundamentally wrong with AirBnB. The vast majority of the issue is that AirBnB is not reacting well to the crisis, and that the PR is being handled about as clumsily as possible. Y-Combinator needs a PR firm. That much is clear from the AirBnB fall out over the last few days, and I'm not talking about a PR firm to cheer lead for YC, or a PR firm to respond to this or any particular incident. Instead, they need a PR firm that will evaluate risks of the evolving start-ups, in particular focusing on ones with lots of funding and press exposure. The firm's role would be to anticipate and plan for potential fall out. In times of trouble, the firm would be poised to jump in and coach the team on the appropriate way to respond to crisis in the public eye. A good PR firm would know that saying the word "funding" to the victim was simply not a good idea, and would have advised the founders as such before any meetings with the victim. I think public relations is like a dirty word in the valley, but PR need not be an unethical or otherwise bad practice, and in this case, the right support would have made a world of difference. The firm really could just be an observer, except in times of crisis. It may be beneficial for the firm to interact with the start-ups, but I think this would at least lead to resistance, given the culture of technical-centric organizations. Simply having an impartial observer with a nose for media problems would avert some crises.
- rednaught 15y ago
  I've often wondered this this isn't part of the "foundations" portion that is mentioned in the description of the YCombinator program. Not only a PR firm as you mentioned but a couple of training sessions in PR AND ethics before launch even happens. A core set of skills and knowledge is more than merely a founder and a great idea these days. I count at least three YCombinator startups that have stumbled severely with PR not once but multiple times: Wakemate, Dropbox and AirBnB.
  - skmurphy 15y ago
    Wakemate, Dropbox and AirBnB have made poor business decisions. It's a PR problem when you explain a good decision poorly.
cincinnatus 15y ago
This whole situation doesn't feel right. AirBnB definitely screwed up, how far back that was is not clear, but EJ doesn't pass the smell test either. Caveat that we likely are still a mile short of posessing full details.
- espeed 15y ago
  I agree, something about this whole thing just seems off. She said was "growing a very thick skin" because of accusations that she was part of a plot by the hotel industry to discredit Airbnb Has Airbnb been looking into this possibility? EJ blogged, And I was - but no longer am - scared of Airbnb’s reaction, the pressure and the veiled threat I have received from them since I initially blogged this story (http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare-no-end-in-sight.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare...). But that doesn't fit with PG's description or the profile of the founders (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721). Nor does it fit with EJ's original account: I would be remiss if I didn’t pause here to emphasize that the customer service team at airbnb.com has been wonderful, giving this crime their full attention (http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travele...). And there are these green "jcunningham" types that keep popping up on HN (http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham) trying to demonize Airbnb.
  - plusbryan 15y ago
    The fact the police were involved rules this out as a conspiracy. And it just doesn't follow that even if the hotel industry is taking advantage of the situation (they probably could care less), EJ was involved in a conspiracy. Can we move the discussion forward please?
    - espeed 15y ago
      It doesn't have to be a "conspiracy" -- the change in story, attitude, and the selected words looks like someone is being coached and has decided to milk it.
theclay 15y ago
All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200? When they say they will be "creating a "Trust and Safety" department, they again don't mention actual numbers. What are the figures?
- tokenadult 15y ago
  All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200? This is one of my pet peeves about journalism--quantitative statements that aren't anchored to any numbers. The most outrageous example most of the time is talk of government budget "cuts" that are nearly always "growth in spending at a slower than originally planned rate" rather than actual reductions in spending.
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bpd1069 15y ago
My 0.02: Buy the woman a new home, what ever she wants, furnish it as she wants and pay her a largish sum of money to compensate for those things that cannot be replaced. Get insurance to cover the renters in future cases of theft or damage, and there will be future events. Get a company that conducts background checks on applicants that wish to rent through their service. Anonymize the result and get the renter's approval before the transaction can proceed.
- OpenAmazing 15y ago
  Offering to give EJ a new house is like offering to buy a rape victim new clothes. And if you think the way EJ feels is not similar to what a rape victim feels, you probably haven't talked to one before.
- tatsuke95 15y ago
  "Getting insurance" isn't just a small expense to tack on. Depending on the cost - and after this incident and the public nature of the product, it won't be cheap - it may prohibitively harm the company. Who knows.
  - justincormack 15y ago
    Maybe they are not in a viable business after all. This business has existed for a long time on a very small scale but other types of business such as hotels and b&bs have always dominated.
    - tatsuke95 15y ago
      Exactly. Insurance has to be accounted for, and it obviously isn't in the current model. It wouldn't be a complete shock if it turned out to be unsustainable. Bubbles and such...
- prostoalex 15y ago
  Add up insurance costs + background check costs + operating costs rising as a result of buying people new (!) homes in San Francisco (!!) + bs requirements such as entering personal information in order to run a background check, and I've got a new low-cost alternative for you. It's called hotel industry.
pushingbits 15y ago
I've been following this despite myself for a while. It does a pretty good job at illustrating a problem with this instant update news you get so much these days. Too much thought and words spent on intermediate situations. It's almost certain that not all details are known and of the ones that are known, some will probably turn out to be incorrect. And now every time a little tidbit of information turns up, everyone starts interpreting the new situation (with the added tidbit of information). New conjecture, new advice, new commentary. Then when the next bit of information comes in, it invalidates half the predictions that have been made, and the whole process starts again. Over and over. Round and round. A couple of weeks from now when all the details are out and established, all this intermediate commentary will just be noise. A tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear. That's not to say that you shouldn't do it... hell, if you feel like it... But you might ask yourself if there isn't something else you'd rather be doing. Something useful. Something fun. I don't know. Anyway, I'll write myself a reminder to check up on how the whole thing turned out in a month or so and ignore these threads from now on.
- tokenadult 15y ago
  It does a pretty good job at illustrating a problem with this instant update news you get so much these days. But when the technology to provide instant news updates was developed, it was hailed as an opportunity not to be behind the curve on a breaking story. And blogging was hailed (especially by Dave Winer, since way back in the year 2000 or earlier) as something that would give a voice to the forgotten common people and shake up journalism. Good ideas have unintended consequences.
  - pushingbits 15y ago
    Oh, when I said it's a problem I meant it's a problem I have with it. Unless it's an event that I can influence while it is happening (and I think now that the major outcry happened, none of the talk here will make much of a difference), I'd rather read a summary of what happened one week later than reading piecemeal updates every day. I get the same information in the end (all the intermediate stuff, I'd forget anyway), and it doesn't take as long, so I have more time for doing other things.
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nikcub 15y ago
> Airbnb, while pointing out that the incident was the first of its kind out of some 2 million stays booked since the company's founding in 2008 this isn't true. there was a guy in the Techcrunch comments who said that the same thing happen to him. he also makes reference to two other incidents in another comment. the comment is here: http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-fault/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-fau... reproducing the top part of the comment: Something very similar happened to me about 2 months ago. In addition to valuables stolen, the thieves/addicts did thousands of dollars of bizarre damage to my rented home and left it littered with meth pipes. They were identity thieves, too and all my personal information was strewn about. Further investigation of my own led me to evidence that the people were not just thieves but were also dangerous. I too, feared for my own safety and would not stay at my house for some time. I had a similar problem with haphazard communication from people at AirBnB. I gave them multiple opportunities to make me a happy customer to which they did but then retracted their offer after their was miscommunication among the team. Sometimes days went by without hearing from anyone, while I was fear-stricken, totally disoriented, and angry. It was almost the most absurd customer service crisis one could ever imagine. But I am one squeaky wheel, and we eventually found an agreeable solution that I was generally pleased with. I have since both rented my place out and stayed in others' homes from airbnb
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  - ajays 15y ago
    EJ's incident happened a month ago. The other incident (referenced in GP) happened 2 months ago. So EJ's can not be the "first of its kind". If the quoted comment is true, then AirBnB is lying.
- mikeleeorg 15y ago
  Interesting. Has anyone been able to verify this account from Troy Dayton? I found his Twitter & LinkedIn accounts (easy to get from a web search) and, at the very least, I can confirm that someone exists by that name in San Francisco.
stephth 15y ago
So what's new in the world of hacking guys?
- stephth 15y ago
  Phew, -5 points already? Some people are edgy around here. Genuine question: what does this article add that top HN posts haven't covered yet? Is it the simple fact that USAToday-Travel talked about it?
geuis 15y ago
I find it hard to believe, yet I have been unable to find any public search for California arrest records. Just loads of pay to search sites that are ranking too high.
tzs 15y ago
I've not used Airbnb so perhaps I do not understand this correctly, but isn't the whole point of the service to hook up people with rooms or housing available for short term rental with strangers who want to rent short term housing? I understand from their site that you can read reviews from prior hosts who rented to a given guest, but beyond that it is up to you to investigate the guest and decide if you trust them, and to purchase insurance if you want to be protected against misjudgment. If so, I do not understand the fuss here. A bad guest ripped someone off. Presumably that guest will get a scathing review and no one else will rent to them. Why isn't that the end of the matter? Surely no one is surprised that if you give strangers unsupervised full access to your home, without doing a very thorough background check on them, occasionally you are going to get a bad guest. Now one might argue that Airbnb is in a better position than the average host to gather data to make a good estimate of the prevalence and impact of bad guests, and so it would be more efficient for them to buy insurance to protect hosts rather than leave it to the hosts, but until that happens hosts need to insure.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  > Presumably that guest will get a scathing review and no one else will rent to them. That guest probably used a fake name and a fake credit card. But yeah, I agree. We use AirBNB, both when hosting and traveling. We give our guests keys and tell them they're free to come and go as they please - but we wouldn't just mail someone a copy of our keys and go on vacation. That's something you do with a rental property - not your home.
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  A big part of the issue is that you are limited in how much you can learn about a potential guest because Airbnb specifically attempts to hide their full identity from you until after the first transaction as a means to avoid people using them as a matching service and then doing the money transaction outside of the system. Also, as far as getting your own insurance goes.. good luck with that. Even if you have renter's or home owner's insurance it probably specifically denies any sort of coverage once you bring subletting into the mix.
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gobongo 15y ago
Have any news sources stated whether or not EJ owns the place that got ransacked? I often see it referred to as her "apartment" in various places and was curious if she actually owned it or was a renter who was subletting it herself? Perhaps part of the problem Airbnb has coming fully clean with the entire story is the whole can of worms that potentially opens up if/when it becomes common knowledge that a lot of their business is built on subletting that isn't even technically legal (according to most rental contracts) in the first place.
- aonic 15y ago
  Her blog post here http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-home.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-hom... mentions that its a rented apartment. I quickly rented a place of my own and began to settle in – unpacking dusty boxes, unloading suitcases and scouring the internet for furniture. Something along the lines of a home began to take shape, and with it came that invaluable feeling of being at peace.
forkandwait 15y ago
Is anybody looking into the big hotels and any possibility they are connected here?
jim_h 15y ago
I don't believe this is Airbnb's fault, BUT since it has happened and gotten big they better get their act together and fix it somehow. Renting out short term is a good business IF someone is around the entire time to watch over guests. There should really be a host present the entire time for the guests. Otherwise there is an increased risk of bad things to happen. Potential hosts needs to be aware of all the risks (even if small chance) and be prepared to accept it if they're not vigilant. It's much easier than running a business, but it could really bite you on the ass if you don't run it as a real business.
avjinder 15y ago
Airbnb should be very cautious right now and re-think their home-rental policies carefully or it could come back to bite them in the ass. Airbnb cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her house redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and opportunists who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash it and blame Airbnb for it. Because there won't be any other proof other than the victim's word, and the Internet would again rally against Airbnb, they will have to repeat the same pattern again and put the victim in 5 star hotels etc etc., and before they know it they're hemorrhaging more money than they make and fighting to keep their startup alive. So don't rush to conclusions about the hard-heartedness or ham-fistedness of the Airbnb founders. This has happened to them for the first time and they're bewildered that they're getting so much hate from strangers and I believe they must be helping poor EJ in some way or the other.
- CamperBob 15y ago
  Airbnb cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her house redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and opportunists who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash it and blame Airbnb for it. This problem is trivial to avoid, by the simple expedient of requiring a police report. The police don't take kindly to being used as patsies for insurance fraud.
mpclark 15y ago
Plot thickens? I see no thickening of the plot here, or even any substantive new information. Just a me-too article with a slightly clever headline...
shuw 15y ago
I'm still confused by the outrage. I'm not an expert but a 1/2MM incidence rate seems pristinely low compared to the baseline risk of burglaries. If those 2MM homeowners had not used AirBNB, how many of their homes would have been robbed? AirBnB should definitely add supplemental insurance; which should be low due to such a great record.
da5e 15y ago
This headline in Business Insider about pg is pretty misleading. Airbnb Investor Suggests Ransacked Airbnb User Is Lying http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-graham-2011-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-graha...
llambda 15y ago
How about we flag any new article related to this particular story (including this one) until an article provides some new information; rehashing the same story over and over and over is really getting tiring... (From what I'm reading, there is absolutely nothing new going on here.)
tokenadult 15y ago
Somehow I'm reminded of a paragraph in pg's essay "How to Start a Startup": "I was great at customer support though. Imagine talking to a customer support person who not only knew everything about the product, but would apologize abjectly if there was a bug, and then fix it immediately, while you were on the phone with them. Customers loved us. And we loved them, because when you're growing slow by word of mouth, your first batch of users are the ones who were smart enough to find you by themselves. There is nothing more valuable, in the early stages of a startup, than smart users. If you listen to them, they'll tell you exactly how to make a winning product. And not only will they give you this advice for free, they'll pay you." http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html There is other good advice for startups in this essay.
Havoc 15y ago
>unnamed co-founder asked her to "shut down the blog altogether or limit its access," and suggested she "update the blog with a 'twist' of good news so as to 'complete[s] the story.'" Its as if they forgot about the 5m incentive & industrial strength NDAs. Nothing good can come of this for Airbnb, so fix it...quietly & speedily. She is justifiably distressed and clearly willing to post what is essentially a PR _disaster_ online, so why isn't Airbnb on top of this, doing everything in their power to make her feel better? At the very least they could set her up in a hotel & meet her face to face. Clearly they are doing something very very wrong here: >Airbnb’s reaction, the pressure and the veiled threat

166 points by felipemnoa 15y ago

This article, as far as I can tell, does not contain any new information about the EJ saga. I am quite confident that, had the subject matter of the submission not been AirBnB (and thus killing it might give rise to accusations of censorship on part of YC), this submission would have been killed as a dupe, and rightly so. What is the point of submitting the same story over and over again, albeit from different news sources? The fact that it has 98 points at the moment is proof that the angry mob PG was talking about¹ is a reality. It's sad to see this kind of behavior on HN. ¹ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822860 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822860

blumentopf 15y ago
Yes, but the same is true for Bitcoin and other topics. It's human nature. People vent their anger by upvoting and commenting on this stuff. Give 'em a break, it's just two or three additional entries in the Top 30.
mcantelon 15y ago
I think the significance of it is that the story has hit USA Today and AirBnB still hasn't done anything to make the victim happy.

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kyro 15y ago
Do you have some sort of personal interest in this story? Your only comments since you've created your account a day ago have been made in relation to this whole AirBnB situation. Edit: Reply was to jcunningham.
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  - jsavimbi 15y ago
    Yeah. Ok.
- theclay 15y ago
  Wow! Here today, gone tomorrow. Good call Kyro!
jsavimbi 15y ago
> This is proof positive that Chesky lied in his written statements over the last few days when he said there is a suspect in custody. I don't think a recap of the story as related to us by USA Today, not exactly an investigative outfit, sheds any new light nor does it provide proof of anything. Nor does the one posted in the Chronicle. This hide and go seek game that EJ is playing is allowing her to avoid any scrutiny while she hides behind her blog. Personally, I think Balloon Boy's father has something to do with this. Also, last time I checked, Brian Chesky was not in the employ of the SFPD as a jailer nor does he have any legal connection, responsibility or obligation to the accused.
sp332 15y ago
If Airbnb worked with the police, and the police said they had someone in custody, maybe he didn't know that she might have been released. Anyway, maybe she hasn't been released but was transferred to county.
kwis 15y ago
What's the point of an apology? Homeaway.com, VRBO.com, and roomarama.com all offer similar products, and they built their businesses without dishonesty or spam.
jmtame 15y ago
How does this mean Chesky lied? If they moved Faith Clinton to another county where she had warrants out for her arrest, then she's still in custody. That hasn't been confirmed. Brian wrote the response on Thursday, but the article doesn't say when Faith Clinton was out of custody. The response could have been referring to a conversation Brian had with police earlier, not literally the day of writing the post (unless he specified the timing otherwise).

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kgtm 15y ago

"Obviously, the financial damages have been significant, but it has come down to a matter of principle and how I feel they disregarded me and my situation," she said. "I still hurt, and I don't know how you make that right." But she does know. She implicitly states that Airbnb should have reimbursed her for her financial losses, and since they didn't nudge, she will now crucify them because of her "principles". By all means i was sympathetic towards her, but this is getting tiring. Spiteful even.

famousactress 15y ago
Yeah.. but being disappointed with how EJ and AirBnB handled the situation aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I frankly don't care all that much how gracefully someone who's apartment gets ransacked handles things. It's not as material to me as the way a company that I might choose to do business with handles the situation.
- kgtm 15y ago
  It seems like AirBnB is now, because of this event, creating a framework to shield the company and their users from similar mishaps (details provided in the article). Which shows they are listening. I think they should be judged on that framework, when it is finally in place, instead of this single incident.
  - bbb7777777 15y ago
    You make a good point about judging them on how well they learn from this mistake. My concern is they may come up with a good framework, but then can't execute the solution well. In this case the solution means little. And this incident has cast doubt on their ability to execute. Then again, it may only be one bad incident, and every small company has those. What troubles me most is the claim they attempted to cover it up, so I'm not sure how many times an incident like this has happened.
    - chrischen 15y ago
      They didn't attempt to "cover it up." That's just media spin. They attempted to resolve the matter silently, which, honestly, is a perfectly reasonable request. But clearly the issue is beyond reconciliation as the woman is requesting something Airbnb can't fix (and technically didn't cause). Perhaps exposing the situation to the world might help her find the "problem" and thus the solution.

andrewljohnson 15y ago

This is a little out of hand now, and it really isn't because of anything fundamentally wrong with AirBnB. The vast majority of the issue is that AirBnB is not reacting well to the crisis, and that the PR is being handled about as clumsily as possible. Y-Combinator needs a PR firm. That much is clear from the AirBnB fall out over the last few days, and I'm not talking about a PR firm to cheer lead for YC, or a PR firm to respond to this or any particular incident. Instead, they need a PR firm that will evaluate risks of the evolving start-ups, in particular focusing on ones with lots of funding and press exposure. The firm's role would be to anticipate and plan for potential fall out. In times of trouble, the firm would be poised to jump in and coach the team on the appropriate way to respond to crisis in the public eye. A good PR firm would know that saying the word "funding" to the victim was simply not a good idea, and would have advised the founders as such before any meetings with the victim. I think public relations is like a dirty word in the valley, but PR need not be an unethical or otherwise bad practice, and in this case, the right support would have made a world of difference. The firm really could just be an observer, except in times of crisis. It may be beneficial for the firm to interact with the start-ups, but I think this would at least lead to resistance, given the culture of technical-centric organizations. Simply having an impartial observer with a nose for media problems would avert some crises.

rednaught 15y ago
I've often wondered this this isn't part of the "foundations" portion that is mentioned in the description of the YCombinator program. Not only a PR firm as you mentioned but a couple of training sessions in PR AND ethics before launch even happens. A core set of skills and knowledge is more than merely a founder and a great idea these days. I count at least three YCombinator startups that have stumbled severely with PR not once but multiple times: Wakemate, Dropbox and AirBnB.
- skmurphy 15y ago
  Wakemate, Dropbox and AirBnB have made poor business decisions. It's a PR problem when you explain a good decision poorly.

cincinnatus 15y ago

This whole situation doesn't feel right. AirBnB definitely screwed up, how far back that was is not clear, but EJ doesn't pass the smell test either. Caveat that we likely are still a mile short of posessing full details.

espeed 15y ago
I agree, something about this whole thing just seems off. She said was "growing a very thick skin" because of accusations that she was part of a plot by the hotel industry to discredit Airbnb Has Airbnb been looking into this possibility? EJ blogged, And I was - but no longer am - scared of Airbnb’s reaction, the pressure and the veiled threat I have received from them since I initially blogged this story (http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare-no-end-in-sight.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare...). But that doesn't fit with PG's description or the profile of the founders (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721). Nor does it fit with EJ's original account: I would be remiss if I didn’t pause here to emphasize that the customer service team at airbnb.com has been wonderful, giving this crime their full attention (http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travele...). And there are these green "jcunningham" types that keep popping up on HN (http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham) trying to demonize Airbnb.
- plusbryan 15y ago
  The fact the police were involved rules this out as a conspiracy. And it just doesn't follow that even if the hotel industry is taking advantage of the situation (they probably could care less), EJ was involved in a conspiracy. Can we move the discussion forward please?
  - espeed 15y ago
    It doesn't have to be a "conspiracy" -- the change in story, attitude, and the selected words looks like someone is being coached and has decided to milk it.

theclay 15y ago

All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200? When they say they will be "creating a "Trust and Safety" department, they again don't mention actual numbers. What are the figures?

tokenadult 15y ago
All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200? This is one of my pet peeves about journalism--quantitative statements that aren't anchored to any numbers. The most outrageous example most of the time is talk of government budget "cuts" that are nearly always "growth in spending at a slower than originally planned rate" rather than actual reductions in spending.

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bpd1069 15y ago

My 0.02: Buy the woman a new home, what ever she wants, furnish it as she wants and pay her a largish sum of money to compensate for those things that cannot be replaced. Get insurance to cover the renters in future cases of theft or damage, and there will be future events. Get a company that conducts background checks on applicants that wish to rent through their service. Anonymize the result and get the renter's approval before the transaction can proceed.

OpenAmazing 15y ago
Offering to give EJ a new house is like offering to buy a rape victim new clothes. And if you think the way EJ feels is not similar to what a rape victim feels, you probably haven't talked to one before.
tatsuke95 15y ago
"Getting insurance" isn't just a small expense to tack on. Depending on the cost - and after this incident and the public nature of the product, it won't be cheap - it may prohibitively harm the company. Who knows.
- justincormack 15y ago
  Maybe they are not in a viable business after all. This business has existed for a long time on a very small scale but other types of business such as hotels and b&bs have always dominated.
  - tatsuke95 15y ago
    Exactly. Insurance has to be accounted for, and it obviously isn't in the current model. It wouldn't be a complete shock if it turned out to be unsustainable. Bubbles and such...
prostoalex 15y ago
Add up insurance costs + background check costs + operating costs rising as a result of buying people new (!) homes in San Francisco (!!) + bs requirements such as entering personal information in order to run a background check, and I've got a new low-cost alternative for you. It's called hotel industry.

pushingbits 15y ago

I've been following this despite myself for a while. It does a pretty good job at illustrating a problem with this instant update news you get so much these days. Too much thought and words spent on intermediate situations. It's almost certain that not all details are known and of the ones that are known, some will probably turn out to be incorrect. And now every time a little tidbit of information turns up, everyone starts interpreting the new situation (with the added tidbit of information). New conjecture, new advice, new commentary. Then when the next bit of information comes in, it invalidates half the predictions that have been made, and the whole process starts again. Over and over. Round and round. A couple of weeks from now when all the details are out and established, all this intermediate commentary will just be noise. A tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear. That's not to say that you shouldn't do it... hell, if you feel like it... But you might ask yourself if there isn't something else you'd rather be doing. Something useful. Something fun. I don't know. Anyway, I'll write myself a reminder to check up on how the whole thing turned out in a month or so and ignore these threads from now on.

tokenadult 15y ago
It does a pretty good job at illustrating a problem with this instant update news you get so much these days. But when the technology to provide instant news updates was developed, it was hailed as an opportunity not to be behind the curve on a breaking story. And blogging was hailed (especially by Dave Winer, since way back in the year 2000 or earlier) as something that would give a voice to the forgotten common people and shake up journalism. Good ideas have unintended consequences.
- pushingbits 15y ago
  Oh, when I said it's a problem I meant it's a problem I have with it. Unless it's an event that I can influence while it is happening (and I think now that the major outcry happened, none of the talk here will make much of a difference), I'd rather read a summary of what happened one week later than reading piecemeal updates every day. I get the same information in the end (all the intermediate stuff, I'd forget anyway), and it doesn't take as long, so I have more time for doing other things.

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nikcub 15y ago

> Airbnb, while pointing out that the incident was the first of its kind out of some 2 million stays booked since the company's founding in 2008 this isn't true. there was a guy in the Techcrunch comments who said that the same thing happen to him. he also makes reference to two other incidents in another comment. the comment is here: http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-fault/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-fau... reproducing the top part of the comment: Something very similar happened to me about 2 months ago. In addition to valuables stolen, the thieves/addicts did thousands of dollars of bizarre damage to my rented home and left it littered with meth pipes. They were identity thieves, too and all my personal information was strewn about. Further investigation of my own led me to evidence that the people were not just thieves but were also dangerous. I too, feared for my own safety and would not stay at my house for some time. I had a similar problem with haphazard communication from people at AirBnB. I gave them multiple opportunities to make me a happy customer to which they did but then retracted their offer after their was miscommunication among the team. Sometimes days went by without hearing from anyone, while I was fear-stricken, totally disoriented, and angry. It was almost the most absurd customer service crisis one could ever imagine. But I am one squeaky wheel, and we eventually found an agreeable solution that I was generally pleased with. I have since both rented my place out and stayed in others' homes from airbnb

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- ajays 15y ago
  EJ's incident happened a month ago. The other incident (referenced in GP) happened 2 months ago. So EJ's can not be the "first of its kind". If the quoted comment is true, then AirBnB is lying.
mikeleeorg 15y ago
Interesting. Has anyone been able to verify this account from Troy Dayton? I found his Twitter & LinkedIn accounts (easy to get from a web search) and, at the very least, I can confirm that someone exists by that name in San Francisco.

stephth 15y ago

So what's new in the world of hacking guys?

stephth 15y ago
Phew, -5 points already? Some people are edgy around here. Genuine question: what does this article add that top HN posts haven't covered yet? Is it the simple fact that USAToday-Travel talked about it?

geuis 15y ago

I find it hard to believe, yet I have been unable to find any public search for California arrest records. Just loads of pay to search sites that are ranking too high.

tzs 15y ago

I've not used Airbnb so perhaps I do not understand this correctly, but isn't the whole point of the service to hook up people with rooms or housing available for short term rental with strangers who want to rent short term housing? I understand from their site that you can read reviews from prior hosts who rented to a given guest, but beyond that it is up to you to investigate the guest and decide if you trust them, and to purchase insurance if you want to be protected against misjudgment. If so, I do not understand the fuss here. A bad guest ripped someone off. Presumably that guest will get a scathing review and no one else will rent to them. Why isn't that the end of the matter? Surely no one is surprised that if you give strangers unsupervised full access to your home, without doing a very thorough background check on them, occasionally you are going to get a bad guest. Now one might argue that Airbnb is in a better position than the average host to gather data to make a good estimate of the prevalence and impact of bad guests, and so it would be more efficient for them to buy insurance to protect hosts rather than leave it to the hosts, but until that happens hosts need to insure.

pavel_lishin 15y ago
> Presumably that guest will get a scathing review and no one else will rent to them. That guest probably used a fake name and a fake credit card. But yeah, I agree. We use AirBNB, both when hosting and traveling. We give our guests keys and tell them they're free to come and go as they please - but we wouldn't just mail someone a copy of our keys and go on vacation. That's something you do with a rental property - not your home.
georgemcbay 15y ago
A big part of the issue is that you are limited in how much you can learn about a potential guest because Airbnb specifically attempts to hide their full identity from you until after the first transaction as a means to avoid people using them as a matching service and then doing the money transaction outside of the system. Also, as far as getting your own insurance goes.. good luck with that. Even if you have renter's or home owner's insurance it probably specifically denies any sort of coverage once you bring subletting into the mix.
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gobongo 15y ago

Have any news sources stated whether or not EJ owns the place that got ransacked? I often see it referred to as her "apartment" in various places and was curious if she actually owned it or was a renter who was subletting it herself? Perhaps part of the problem Airbnb has coming fully clean with the entire story is the whole can of worms that potentially opens up if/when it becomes common knowledge that a lot of their business is built on subletting that isn't even technically legal (according to most rental contracts) in the first place.

aonic 15y ago
Her blog post here http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-home.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-hom... mentions that its a rented apartment. I quickly rented a place of my own and began to settle in – unpacking dusty boxes, unloading suitcases and scouring the internet for furniture. Something along the lines of a home began to take shape, and with it came that invaluable feeling of being at peace.

forkandwait 15y ago

Is anybody looking into the big hotels and any possibility they are connected here?

jim_h 15y ago

I don't believe this is Airbnb's fault, BUT since it has happened and gotten big they better get their act together and fix it somehow. Renting out short term is a good business IF someone is around the entire time to watch over guests. There should really be a host present the entire time for the guests. Otherwise there is an increased risk of bad things to happen. Potential hosts needs to be aware of all the risks (even if small chance) and be prepared to accept it if they're not vigilant. It's much easier than running a business, but it could really bite you on the ass if you don't run it as a real business.

avjinder 15y ago

Airbnb should be very cautious right now and re-think their home-rental policies carefully or it could come back to bite them in the ass. Airbnb cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her house redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and opportunists who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash it and blame Airbnb for it. Because there won't be any other proof other than the victim's word, and the Internet would again rally against Airbnb, they will have to repeat the same pattern again and put the victim in 5 star hotels etc etc., and before they know it they're hemorrhaging more money than they make and fighting to keep their startup alive. So don't rush to conclusions about the hard-heartedness or ham-fistedness of the Airbnb founders. This has happened to them for the first time and they're bewildered that they're getting so much hate from strangers and I believe they must be helping poor EJ in some way or the other.

CamperBob 15y ago
Airbnb cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her house redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and opportunists who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash it and blame Airbnb for it. This problem is trivial to avoid, by the simple expedient of requiring a police report. The police don't take kindly to being used as patsies for insurance fraud.

mpclark 15y ago

Plot thickens? I see no thickening of the plot here, or even any substantive new information. Just a me-too article with a slightly clever headline...

shuw 15y ago

I'm still confused by the outrage. I'm not an expert but a 1/2MM incidence rate seems pristinely low compared to the baseline risk of burglaries. If those 2MM homeowners had not used AirBNB, how many of their homes would have been robbed? AirBnB should definitely add supplemental insurance; which should be low due to such a great record.

da5e 15y ago

This headline in Business Insider about pg is pretty misleading. Airbnb Investor Suggests Ransacked Airbnb User Is Lying http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-graham-2011-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-graha...

llambda 15y ago

How about we flag any new article related to this particular story (including this one) until an article provides some new information; rehashing the same story over and over and over is really getting tiring... (From what I'm reading, there is absolutely nothing new going on here.)

tokenadult 15y ago

Somehow I'm reminded of a paragraph in pg's essay "How to Start a Startup": "I was great at customer support though. Imagine talking to a customer support person who not only knew everything about the product, but would apologize abjectly if there was a bug, and then fix it immediately, while you were on the phone with them. Customers loved us. And we loved them, because when you're growing slow by word of mouth, your first batch of users are the ones who were smart enough to find you by themselves. There is nothing more valuable, in the early stages of a startup, than smart users. If you listen to them, they'll tell you exactly how to make a winning product. And not only will they give you this advice for free, they'll pay you." http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html There is other good advice for startups in this essay.

Havoc 15y ago

>unnamed co-founder asked her to "shut down the blog altogether or limit its access," and suggested she "update the blog with a 'twist' of good news so as to 'complete[s] the story.'" Its as if they forgot about the 5m incentive & industrial strength NDAs. Nothing good can come of this for Airbnb, so fix it...quietly & speedily. She is justifiably distressed and clearly willing to post what is essentially a PR _disaster_ online, so why isn't Airbnb on top of this, doing everything in their power to make her feel better? At the very least they could set her up in a hotel & meet her face to face. Clearly they are doing something very very wrong here: >Airbnb’s reaction, the pressure and the veiled threat