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I struggle with this daily. As the founder of a startup, I would routinely pull 100 hour weeks. I remember being invited to a Halloween party and just showed up

I struggle with this daily. As the founder of a startup, I would routinely pull 100 hour weeks. I remember being invited to a Halloween party and just showed up as "exhausted software person" because I had no time to prepare a costume. I took a break for 8 years from startups, because I was unable to create boundaries in my mind. This April, after what I thought was a long enough break, I just joined another one. I'm writing this right now because I woke up early in a panic attack about an announcement from one of our competitors. We have a big launch coming up this week, and I'm afraid that we're already too late. I feel my stomach clench and my mind race when I think about the next steps for the company. The problem is that I'm only 4 months into the startup and I've already alienated my partner enough that I have to move out. My whole life has become devoured by this puzzle, and I'm always checking Twitter and Discord to see what I can work on next. I can't slow my heart-rate down and just work at this job normally. If any of you have a good way of "turning off" in order to keep your family stable and mental health okay, please let me know. And I'm not looking for a run of the mill response -- I really would like some advice from people who have really dealt with this before. It's easy to give advice if you have good boundaries, but I would like some help from those who have really struggled. I love my work, but I don't like how it makes me feel. Thanks for your help, everyone.

nomy99 5y ago
I have been in a similar situation and the only thing that helped me was religion. Believing in God removes stress and puts things in perspective for me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
  Among other things, religion helps you realize there are things beyond your control, which is essential to unplugging.
aabhay 5y ago
I don’t have any advice for you, but I can at least say that I’m in a similar boat. I have periods in my past/present where some big challenge lies ahead and my team and I need to sprint HARD to meet it. I originally used to see these moments like a soldier preparing for battle, believing that on the other side that things would be great and I would be proud of the grind. Instead, I sorta look back at those times with a big ‘meh’. If there was success, it wasn’t due to the grind. If there was failure, the grind made it worse. And it put everything else I cared about on the back burner — relationships, health, hobbies, friends. In some ways, I feel that these cycles of grind are partially my destiny, they’re when I’ve done my most challenging and perhaps meaningful work. But it doesn’t match up to my expectations and nowadays I see them as a kind of crutch for not having a better strategy of doing consistently great work. Wondering if anyone has any similar feelings or experiences.
wjossey 5y ago
Hey! You’re not alone. I had huge work life (self induced) challenges for 8 or so years at the start of my career. Similar story to you but not as a founder- I just worked 80+ hours a week by default. Nobody forced me to do it, just my motor. I worked with a psychotherapist for 4 years, once a week, with this being the predominant focus of our time together. She was immensely helpful and between the regular maintenance of those visits and her helping improve my self awareness, I now no longer blitz myself week after week. I certainly still have that motor in me, but I know how to divert it to other activities and focuses like my family, hobbies, and myself. I still love to work because I love what I do, but it’s not how I define my life. Get help. This is sufficiently a problem where it’s impacting your relationships with others, which is a huge red flag.
- cosmojg 5y ago
  This is definitely the best advice offered thus far. If you haven't sought out professional help yet, give it a whirl and see what happens. For many, it's surprisingly effective and often life-changing.
- wut-wut 5y ago
  Excellent advice. I wish had more votes to give this comment. I had a similar experience. Working with a therapist helped me learn boundaries and eventually grok (with support, considerable patience, and repetition from her) that I was addicted to 'saving the day', to solving the problem, the pace, chaos, the deluge of information and technical challenges. I was energized by it. I felt smarter when I was in the eye of this storm. It took me quite a long time to fully integrate and understand that working those hours and wearing 'the cape' is toxic to yourself AND others. I assumed that my efforts were wanted, appreciated, and valued. Only in hindsight, did I 'notice' it had the opposite effect. My intentions didn't matter, the high I felt, the passion, and manic energy I radiated was easily misunderstood. I realized too late that my boss and many of my colleagues resented me for these behaviors. It was decsribed as exhausting by a friend. It takes time to learn new habits, to change, and learn boundaries and how to be present. For me, it was worth the effort.
  - wjossey 5y ago
goalieca 5y ago
Are you having fun?
pilooch 5y ago
Confidence is the key, but it is sometimes out of reach, even if only momentarily. So rationalizing is one way: about competition first, it doesn't matter (really, like... really), whatever you are doing with focus will end up different than what others do (the state space is too large), and the rest is not within your hands. No need to worry then, it's a recurrent, automatic, bad habit. Now, overall and most useful I believe, what we are doing in tech does not matter, it'll be outdated in months, years, whatever. What matters is the people we are working and spending time with. People first, tech second. Good luck, serenity is within reach, especially in tech, it's a matter of body and mind working well together. Oh and exercising is fundamental, walk, run, dance, jump, ...
browningstreet 5y ago
There’s so much material on this subject. It’s been discussed many times right here at HN. But you are externalizing yourself for your startup, you’re experiencing harm, and you still want an externality to solve the problem for you. You make yourself a victim. You’ll have to sort yourself, by and as yourself, to stop this. You have to really see yourself, to start.
- afarrell 5y ago
  > by yourself But you can have a friend with you to talk this through. You are not alone, but you need a phone call… not a forum of internet strangers.
- mizzao 5y ago
  Can you share some of the better discussions and resources you've found for this?
mindhash 5y ago
I was in a similar boat. I turned to books. Read all that I could find in philosophy, leadership, and science of life in general. I also spent lot of time studying other startups and what they did differently to win. The founder fatigue is natural especially when we pour our heart into it. Failure hits hard. I read an interesting discussion between kapil gupta and naval. We attach our 'self' to much with the startup. While most literature focuses on avoiding thoughts, my learning after last couple of years is - the only skilll that can help is patience. Being able to wait is the primary skill I now focus on. Good luck. Some book recommendations: Anything from JD krishnamoorty, why zebras don't get ulcers, extreme leadership, charles duhigg both books, power of now (mindfulness), and most important why we sleep.
- russelldjimmy 5y ago
  How coincidental. I believe I listened to the same Naval-Kapil talk you are speaking of just last night. Followed by my usual dose of Jiddu Krishnamurti’s talk. K’s videos have struck a chord with me and I try to practice what he talks about.
mehphp 5y ago
What you are describing doesn't sound like a typical "turning off work" situation. Startups, as you know, are a different animal. Are you sure startups are what you want to be doing? Being all-consuming is kinda the nature of the beast...
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  Seconding this. If the OP has the problem as he describes, he really needs to avoid his trigger, which is the startup work environment.
trollied 5y ago
I had this problem. I started going rock climbing after work. Only having to worry how I was going to get up a wall, and making that my sole focus, really helped create a couple of hours of seperation. I removed work email from my phone, personal computer and ipad. After a while it was easy to just forget about work after 17:30.
sriram_malhar 5y ago
I was in this loop for a while. One day -- a rare Sunday morning when I was home -- I was just laying down on the carpet enjoying the warm sunshine on my face, when a vision of my workplace flashed in my mind. I was stunned to feel my heartbeat thump instantly. That's when I realized how truly stressed I was. The next day I told my manager that instead of the promotion I was due, I would take Fridays off for the same salary. Somehow, when I had two days off I found it easy to overwork on the weekend, but when I decided that every week had to have a 3-day weekend, everything changed. I started spending hours and hours at bookstores and cafes, and walking around SF and Berkeley. Of course it had a downside. I told my team not to hold meetings on Fridays, but they would forget and go ahead without me. My ego used to get bruised at my dispensability! I'm sure I left many career options on the table, but gained many life options. So much so that I eventually started working only six months a year (did it for 19 years), and picked up a PhD (starting at age 42) during those years. There will always be relentless deadlines, but there has to be enough whitespace built into a life. I have retired now, but I still wake up wanting to write code or learn something now.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  That's a really great career path you were able to plot out, and great your manager at the start of the journey was supportive of it. I think a lot of people don't realize everything is negotiable and you have to set out your own path. That said, you have to make sure you get yourself into the right organization first to make these sort of flexible arrangements. I think 60-75% of firms I have worked at would not allow either % of week / % of year type of arrangements, and the most you might get is a permanent WFH for less pay deal. The amount of stupid things I stayed stupid late for at my previous gig because my manager was a workaholic (as was his own manager). It's never a direct order and rarely even a request, but when your boss just stays in the office til 9pm it makes it hard to walk out the door at 5..6..7pm when theres a pending release/bugfix/etc late going out the door. Likewise when they call you on your cell at 6:45pm without warning to discuss non-urgent issues because they've finally gotten to that email in their inbox..
- hjadal 5y ago
  When working six months a year how are the work months spaced out? 6 months on and 6 off? Or every other month? It sounds like a very interesting (and appealing) way of living life.
fxtentacle 5y ago
Put your phone into airplane mode and give it to your wife/girlfriend/buddy/kids. Internet articles, modern products, and social media are all optimized to be as addictive as possible. So the first step is to forcibly cut the dopamine loop. FYI, CTO of a startup here. In my experience, co-workers and investors will actually respect you more if you have clear personal boundaries and stick to them. And it's not like "don't call on family day" is such a harsh restriction. The others have family too, you know.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  +100 if I could. What you say is especially true of someone in your role (or any higher up role), which in a small startup extends far down I would suppose. When I see the C-levels or even just a level up or sideways mention that they had to work late on this or that or had to have a meeting at 10pm or someone was pulled into a meeting with some C-level at 10pm I loose respect for those people really fast. Work regular hours. Get done what you can get done in those regular hours. Regular hours can mean 11 hours one day and then you take most of Friday off. There's two ways these people loose respect with me: If you have to work 12 hour days to get the same work done as other people, you are maybe not really good at your job or you do too much 'socializing' at work but it makes the actual hard working folks that just finish their work in a regular day look bad. Or you're the workaholic type that just can't stop. At least you're good at your job, perfect. But don't make actual hard working folks look bad.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    Yeah it's crazy. My wife was in final round of interviews, about to get an offer, and all seemed to be well, suddenly the hiring manager drops a bomb.. "The team is working 15 hours/day right now, but it should go down as we onboard staff.. and the firm cares about work/life balance so we encourage everyone to take off 2 days per month out of their unlimited vacation". I mean wtf, if they are doing 15hr/day what are you going down to once you staff up.. 12hr/day? If your hiring manager is willing to work his team 15hr/days for months on end then how is he going to look at you trying to work 10hr/days? Note this is not a startup, but an organization with nearly 20k employees. This is not a lottery ticket job that if a product launches successfully she's going to walk away with career/life changing money. It's maybe a 15-20% raise so that she can work 50-80% more hours. Just so dysfunctional. She was super disappointed until we talked about it being a blessing in disguise. If he had come in with a lower number like "12 hours/day but going down" or the compensation was crazy, you would maybe try to talk yourself into it.. or worse if he didn't disclose hours and you took the job..
monological 5y ago
You've become addicted to the dopamine loop of crushing tasks. It's become your "god". You lie to yourself that what your doing is good and worthwhile. You're anticipating the adrenaline rush of that tantalizing future success. You masochistically grind because you know the payout is coming... The only way out is to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. You have to listen to your heart and follow what it says. What that really means is, don't do anything that your inner person doesn't want to really do. Otherwise you'll just be stuck in this endless Pavlovian, button pushing trap called startups.
- blastro 5y ago
  amen
TriNetra 5y ago
Since last year, I've been changing course of my business to more product driven than consultancy. This has naturally put me into situations of real stress that causes churning in the stomach. The feeling stays for days if not dealt. ON couple of occasions I've successfully eliminated it using the Black Lotus app [0] RARE framework [1]. In the first instance, I chose the goal of being mindful and being stress free for the other. It combines a guided meditation specific for the goal, a breathing exercise, a RAK and some other tiny activities that should not take more than 20-30 minutes a day – but are really powerful. In another occasion, I reflected on the cause of the stress holding conversation with the mind (sitting in meditative cross-legged pose) – what the worse can happen, what are other options etc. etc., and the stress subsided. Basically thoughts are also a form of energy which needs to be released. Either you can channelize them with good meditation or spent them with the bad one, in both cases you do get to feel relax. If you don't do either of these, you end up feeling restless and the more time they remain in your system the more damage they cause. 0: https://www.blacklotus.app/ https://www.blacklotus.app/ 1: https://www.blacklotus.app/about-rare/ https://www.blacklotus.app/about-rare/
brnt 5y ago
> I love my work, but I don't like how it makes me feel. Some choices are more exclusive than others. Life > work.
Spooky23 5y ago
I don’t run a company, but run a large division of one. I describe it as a psychological theme park — you’re king of the world one day, moron the next day, taking care of your people the next. The only thing that has helped me when I feel that way is to take a leap of faith and place trust in others. That thing I think I have to personally oversee really means that I’m not trusting others. That trust problem is usually because I’ve failed as a leader to communicate. So push yourself to do that, and when your comfortable, push yourself to do more. The other thing, which I think men are more vulnerable to, is be careful about defining yourself by work. Your partner or children or whatever need to be a part of what defines you to you. My dad’s recent passing highlighted that for me - he spent 30 years and accomplished a lot in an field that impacted many people positively. But when friends and family all came together… that just wasn’t something that mattered. The little (and big) things that he did for people mattered. One person somehow travelled from abroad during COVID to pay respects and share how my dad helped him out in a small way that redefined his life. I’d ask that you just think about what matters. Deal with the stuff that has to be dealt with, but don’t let it define you. Shipping some feature is what you do, not who you are.
baby 5y ago
Just quit. Moving on, change of sceneries, etc. Allows you to reinvent yourself. Start from scratch again.
jyriand 5y ago
What I have learned is that every behavior serves a inner goal or purpose. You can try to figure out what the goal is by asking "by doing this what am I avoiding or what am I seeking".
higeorge13 5y ago
I had the same problem. Do any or all of the following: - Seek professional help. This is the number one advice and will be extremely helpful. - Remove all work-related accounts from you personal laptop and mobile. Try not to search for your work during your spare time. Search for something else, sports, books, tv series, anything. - Find a hobby with a strict schedule to follow after work, and ideally a (short) goal-oriented one. Rock climbing is perfect because you have short term task to succeed (similar to your day-to-day tasks and tickets), but any of them can work. Just set a goal with your coach, e.g. play your first tennis match with an opponent in 6 months and so on. - Move on. This is probably the hardest, but you really have to consider that this job or life style is not helping you and you need to change to something different. A different job, a non-startup job, a new house, a different neighbourhood, city, anything that can shock your system, help you relax and find some peace, and eventually strengthen your relationship with your partner. - Instead of setting goals only for your work life, set some goals for your personal one, e.g. make a new friend within 2021, travel to Asia within 6 months and so on. Revisit them every now and then, and check how you are doing. Best of luck to you.
charbonneau 5y ago
Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening a thief visited the hut only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ryokan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ryoken sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."
- Nabati 5y ago
  Can't wear a beautiful moon.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  What about the hut? A mortgage free residence is an excellent gift
- fallat 5y ago
  Epitectus would have said: "take my life, for if that's what you wish, have it, but know it will not be easy."
lwn 5y ago
I ran my life into a train-wreck, after doing a start-up. I'm still recovering from a burn-out. Luckily I still have my wife and kids around. They also had to put up with a lot. Some advice: 1. Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana: https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index It will learn you to 'listen and intercept' your impulses so you can deal with 'work-triggers' more easily 2. Turn your notifications off, forever. Train yourself discipline on order not to look on your electronic devices all the time 3. For every 'effort' you take, there should be an equal amount of recreation. Exerting and relaxing should be in balance (Keep in mind, using a screen is not relaxing) 4. Eat healthy, plenty of outdoors/ nature and exercise.
- acituan 5y ago
  > Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana No, no, no. Spiritual retreats are not self-regulation tools, they are an education. 10 day intensive during a burnout is asking for trouble. It can’t be your first contact with Vipassana and if you use it to bypass what you need to solve, you’ll end up worse. Just rest, engage with mundane, real life (think sunshine, nature, using your body, eating well, laughing with friends etc), then do a “postmortem” on why did this happen and how can you prevent it; ideally with a therapist. After things are back to a normal, then you can add more practices like Vipassana, just start from the shallow end.
  - lwn 5y ago
    Hmmm, I haven't though about it in this way. You do have a good point. Creating bypasses for problems is very realistic.
- balfirevic 5y ago
  > Keep in mind, using a screen is not relaxing Why would watching a movie, sports game or playing a video game not be relaxing?
  - david-gpu 5y ago
    Your mind stays busy. It is much better to go out for a walk and simply remain present.
option_greek 5y ago
It might sound weird but apart from the standard advice you are going to receive about pills, therapy and mental gymnastics, in my personal experience becoming more spiritual helps. I know its not a popular thing in a any tech circles to even think about it but it does help. And spirituality need not involve any religion. You can try philosophies like Zen or Advaita which basically reduces you to being a doer aiming for the best way to do things without caring for the outcome. These philosophies reduce the attachment to material success and paradoxically also help you do your best on any given task because your mind is free. Its like you are a plumber or electrician who got called for consultation. You give your best possible advice and try doing the best possible work but if the customer faces the problem again, you might not feel the pain personally.
tobmlt 5y ago
“Winning” at this work is not worth “dying” at life. But that is just “words words words” and I cannot make it mean for you what it means for me. Self introspection is nonlinear and non-rational to a real extent. Love letter to hacker news: neither of those things is bad. Just different than engineering thinking. Do not seek to engineer your mind’s thinking, if you seek lasting happiness. Instead work to find your innermost workings (feelings fears ideals etc) and integrate them into your conscious day. Integrate fear? Why yes. Do not push it down… Back to the task at hand. More linearly now: Why do you love this work you do? Ask the hardest questions and seek the hardest answers. Maybe you are on the right path for yourself. I don’t think you would have posted this if you really believed it. I love my work too, and something about it is killing me. It is not the thing I love (the science, the math, the physics, the code) that is killing me, but the toxic nature of the environment in which I seem to have to practice it in order to make a living. For me, there is a riddle to be solved. The things i love are not toxic, but they are mixed with things that are. My workaday life is heavy with toxicity. Can the good be separated from the toxic? Or do I have to go and become a river guide, bum, or base jumper? Perhaps I just need to meditate on these things. (I’ve turned my comment intentionally at myself, because I cannot be so hubristic as to know what specific advice to offer you) I will say, if you have to work in an environment of toxic stress, the first fear to root out is the fear of failure. Make peace with that fear in the strongest way. Your fear blocks your success. Find this way, if you can: Work as one who is at play. Otherwise quit and make another way to work on the things you love which is more healthy.
notexhausted 5y ago
Posting anon for obvious reasons. After 15yrs of aggressive, upward growth positions and three years of my own startup, I landed what seemed to be an awesome job at a Series A startup. The company is completely mismanaged, overstaffed, on a collision course, and yet the best job I ever had. I'm not a crook - so I do put in an honest 40hrs to collect my modest 200k salary (modest given my experience.) However, the company is so mismanaged by the C-Suite and so far gone there is no pressure to go beyond the 40hrs/week. The C-Suite is already destroying the firm, why bother plugging holes on a sinking ship on my spare time? I enjoy the work, my co-workers, but really enjoy the free evenings and free weekends. Best experience of my life while it lasts. No longer have headaches. Have friends that I spend time with. Enjoy the outdoors. I wish I could have the same at a company that was not mismanaged, because i'm sure it can happen. Our tech org is strong, just the MBAs in the CSuite cant seem to get out of our way.
knodi 5y ago
If you don't figure out how to control this I'm afraid startups are not for you. Find a job somewhere you'll be happy with, without this stress of constant burden of startups. You need to stop killing your self over this.
WontonDon 5y ago
Working on the things you love should energize you. Consider if you are truly passionate about the things you are currently working on right now. If you are having fun and are genuinely building something cool, you'll be very productive. The second order effect is that you'll be more financially successful(stable family) and happy(mental health).
Torwald 5y ago
> If any of you have a good way of "turning off" in order to keep your family stable and mental health okay, please let me know. Neil Fiore's "Unschedule"
bitexploder 5y ago
I have run an infosec consultancy for the last 8 years with a couple partners. You got a lot of good advice already, but I’ll throw in my two points: 1. You need a hobby outside of business. Something you look forward to at a lot that is intrinsically rewarding. Physical in nature is a plus for me. BJJ is my hobby and it’s great. 2. Stoicism. The dichotomy of control specifically is powerful. Sort your life into buckets of what you can control and what you can’t. Acknowledge your limits. Can you really work productively and deeply even 60 or 70 hours a week? Honestly, find a therapist. Someone you can lay out your mental goals with and be held accountable. You will need to explore this and find out what’s at the root of the overwork. What’s truly important to you? How can you get there healthy and sustainable.
- stadium 5y ago
  Stoicism is a tricky concept to internalize without first dealing with the underlying emotional responses. Learning about something and knowing it's a better way feels good in the short term, but the risk for someone stuck in some deep emotional traumas like OP described is similar to telling an alcoholic to stop drinking. Definitely +1 on the therapy
  - bitexploder 5y ago
    The modern approach is for a therapist to get you to use CBT, which has a lot of roots in stoic philosophy. I backed into it over time… it’s powerful, but I could see how it can make things worse too. It’s something that definitely takes time to understand and integrate. I use the pieces that make sense. Especially the dichotomy of control (hence my recommendation). It’s simple enough to help sort out life problems and focus on what can be impacted. When it all clicks though, it can make life decisions effortless (in my experience). Not for everyone though :)
- christophilus 5y ago
  I think the hobby recommendation is a good one. When I was in a similar strait, I found rock climbing took me completely out of my headspace. If you’ve got access to a good rock climbing gym, I highly recommend it.
throwaway6734 5y ago
>As the founder of a startup, I would routinely pull 100 hour weeks I don't understand how anyone could be remotely productive under these settings unless it was all grind work. How many "fresh" hours of work would you say this was equivalent to?
apatters 5y ago
I am an owner/founder who has experienced similar anxieties and the answer was cognitive behavioral therapy and drugs, both managed by a good therapist. The CBT can effect long term changes in your thinking and behavior, and temper your anxieties permanently. The drugs can make the anxieties disappear temporarily and immediately and are best used infrequently in situations where the price of impaired performance is high. (Many doctors overprescribe them imo.) It took several years of slow progress but probably 75% of my anxieties are gone. I don't overwork myself, I don't worry about things unless it benefits me to do so, and I rarely miss out on a good night's sleep. You can change.
wolverine876 5y ago
Maybe startups, or at least the roles you have, don't suit you. Just like your startup, the tactic is to quickly learn what doesn't work and pivot, and to not endlessly pursue something that isn't working. It might seem unthinkable, but that is a good sign that you are trapping yourself and inflexible. If you worry what everyone else will think if you leave the startup world, you are looking at the wrong market. When you find something that suits you, I promise you will never regret it.
parksy 5y ago
I can only share my experience, if it's relevant and helps that's great, but as always everyone has different circumstances so take it with a grain of salt. As someone who grew up never able to accept failure (I remember my first B in high school quite vividly), this fear drove a lot of my anxiety in my 20's and 30's. Fear can be helpful as a survival tool that warns of danger. Anxiety can be hugely motivating but it will eat away at you, like having your own inner Gordon Ramsay screaming at you 100% of the time to be better. Some advice never worked for me in the past like "foster a work life balance by doing x, y and z" or "these simple automations will free your mind from work" etc - that kind of prescriptive steps-to-success stuff was like putting a bandage on a burning house, just completely the wrong remedy for what I had going on. I have been getting monthly CBT with a clinical psychologist for the past year and it's been wonderfully helpful. I see it like taking your mind in for a tune up at the brain-garage. Sometimes you'll wonder if that oil change was really necessary and grumble at the expense, other times a simple oil change will dislodge something that was held together by old gunk and you'll need to spend some extra time to replace a worn out part or two, but afterwards you'll be running a lot more efficiently. Another thing that has helped was simple meditation, nothing spiritual, just setting aside quiet time each day to sit still, disconnect, and focus on calming the mind. It might seem counter intuitive to draw on that house fire analogy to sit still in the midst of it all, but think of meditation or therapy as a fire extinguisher instead and it makes more sense. It's really tough to advise because we're all different, however the way I see it now, there's an entire profession of people who specialise in debugging minds, finding a therapist I could gel with and making serious time for it helped me, possibly saved my life even. It might be the best investment in myself I've ever made. Good luck with the launch, sorry to hear you've been having a difficult time of it, it definitely isn't easy.
beckman466 5y ago
> I've already alienated my partner enough that I have to move out. My whole life has become devoured by this puzzle I'm so sorry to hear this. When I was facing similar circumstances the most absurd part of it was that I thought these things were my fault. It isn't. Mental health has been depoliticized and it's roots obscured. Mark Fisher writes: > The UK's National Health Service (NHS), like the education system and other public services, has been forced to try to deal with the social and psychic damage caused by the deliberate destruction of solidarity and security. Where once workers would have turned to trade unions when they were put under increasing stress, now they are encouraged to go to their GP or, if they are lucky enough to be able to be get one on the NHS, a therapist. > It would be facile to argue that every single case of depression can be attributed to economic or political causes; but it is equally facile to maintain – as the dominant approaches to depression do – that the roots of all depression must always lie either in individual brain chemistry or in early childhood experiences. Most psychiatrists assume that mental illnesses such as depression are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, which can be treated by drugs. But most psychotherapy doesn't address the social causation of mental illness either. > The radical therapist David Smail argues that Margaret Thatcher's view that there's no such thing as society, only individuals and their families, finds "an unacknowledged echo in almost all approaches to therapy". Therapies such as cognitive behaviour therapy combine a focus on early life with the self-help doctrine that individuals can become masters of their own destiny. The idea is "with the expert help of your therapist or counsellor, you can change the world you are in the last analysis responsible for, so that it no longer cause you distress" – Smail calls this view "magical voluntarism". > Depression is the shadow side of entrepreneurial culture, what happens when magical voluntarism confronts limited opportunities. As psychologist Oliver James put it in his book The Selfish Capitalist, "in the entrepreneurial fantasy society," we are taught "that only the affluent are winners and that access to the top is open to anyone willing to work hard enough, regardless of their familial, ethnic or social background – if you do not succeed, there is only one person to blame." It's high time that the blame was placed elsewhere. We need to reverse the privatisation of stress and recognise that mental health is a political issue. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/16/mental-health-political-issue https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/16/mental...
diob 5y ago
I had the same issue until I went to therapy. I would suggest trying that out. They can help you think differently (in my case I grew up in a very dysfunctional family, look up adult children of alcoholics, we're often workaholics), and in some cases you might want to consider trying a medication for anxiety like Zoloft. It may seem weird, but I didn't realize just how much it affected me until I got on medication myself. Now I feel free. I can still do great work and focus, but I'm not compelled to. I'm happy to focus on myself as well.
sjg007 5y ago
Sounds like you need help figuring out how to create boundaries. Start by practicing saying "no". If someone asks you to do something, say no. Keep at it.
treme 5y ago
Two bandaid solutions for dealing with stress I'd recommend Yoga Nidra - one of best ways calm your nerve system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noquwycq78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noquwycq78 EMDR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM& it's going to sound crazy but just give it a shot. Just focus on the moving dot when feeling extremely stressed. Check out the top comments for rough how to guide, but just focusing to follow the ball alone will being immediate relief. science behind it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZVw-9ThmSM&t=31s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZVw-9ThmSM&t=31s Long term solutions: Stoic philosophy... Imagining worst case scenarios playing out, and making peace with it. in your case, worst case is you fail and pick yourself back up working as software engineer with great salary. You'll manage ok. Figuring out your stress-destress equation to figure out a sustainable balance of workload and sticking to it(I imagine very difficult to do in most startups). Seeking professional help.
afarrell 5y ago
1. Be willing to accept run of the mill advice. Your problem is not tricky—it is instead dreadfully frightening and painfully difficult. 2. Go for a walk outside while listening to Brené Brown audiobooks. 3. Talk to humans who can actually calmly listen —- Not people as disconnected as an internet forum nor someone as intertwined as a life partner.
yosefjaved1 5y ago
You'll need to remove things from your environment that's causing you to stress out and start making changes to your daily routine that are also exacerbating the stress. You'll never be able to completely get rid of the stress, but you can mitigate the impact it has on your life significantly so that it often times is more positive than negative. What are all those things that are causing you to stress? That I'm not certain. However, here are some things you can do: 1. Seek professional help. If there is an option to see a therapist for cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) then I would highly recommend you consider it. The therapist can help you identify things in your life that you otherwise never considered. 2. Remove Twitter and Discord from your phone. If you're constantly checking it and it's butting into your life then you need to remove them. For me personally, I removed nearly all social media and chat services from my devices. I still have slack (don't have a choice) but shut off all notifications after 5pm. 3. Find a hobby outside of work. I don't care if it's sports, videogames, board games, etc just find something outside of work that you enjoy and can help you unwind.
mattlutze 5y ago
I too love having hard work to do and pouring myself into being a part of as much as I can. I have discovered that, when my personal life has suffered and waned, it's because I'm trying to be a part of too much of the work. The choice I've needed to make is whether I can give up some of the direct personal responsibility that I've internalized over the success of the program I run (big company). If you can't be aware of the limits to your personal capacity, you'll end up living in the exhausted, stress-hormone-overdosed purgatory of burnout land, your body rebelling against your refusal to "go home" at the end of the day. On the "things to do" side, I do better now that I keep a phone for work and don't put any work anything on my personal phone. I do carry both through the day, but I put the work one face down when I'm done and leave it on my desk until the next day. The work computer is similarly separate from where I'm writing right now, and it too goes on silent mode and closed when I'm done. I'll go as far some weeks to unplug it on Friday and tuck it away, just to really remind myself that I'm not on the clock.
stevejb 5y ago
Something you can take from Judaism is the concept of Shabbat where you can take 1 day a week to devote to family, study (that isn't related to your job), personal things, host a dinner with some friend (COVID permitting, of course). Clearly you don't have to be religious to do this, but you can take a dogmatic approach (e.g. your Shabbat starts at a certain time and is not reschedulable, Slack and work email are off during this period, etc.). It seems to be a time honoured approach to maintaining some balance in life.
dabfiend19 5y ago
huge bong rip at 7pm everyday really works wonders for me. while it can increase the anxiety for some, and even me sometimes, it's always causes a "head change" where I'm like "why am I just staring at my screen right now?"
ransom1538 5y ago
You might want to look at beta blockers and talk with your doctor. (eg: propranolol). These are non addictive and will turn off the receptors causing panic and fear. Some people cannot 'think it away' and need medical help.
MagicWishMonkey 5y ago
I've done the startup thing twice and that was enough to make me realize it just isn't worth it. There's a 99% chance that in 2-3 years the startup will implode and you're going to hate yourself for getting so involved that you drove away your partner. Not worth it. Not even a little bit.
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mizzao 5y ago
I seem to have similar issues and personality as you. I co-founded a startup last year and started at a frenetic pace, but was unable to turn myself off. Over the last 3-4 months, the insane productivity was replaced by constant anxiety which mutated to burnout, and forced me to take a break from the company because I basically stopped functioning. At this point, it seems the choices are either figure out how to set boundaries with myself and work at a sustainable pace, or just avoid these kinds of positions (founder is probably the most extreme type) and the addiction to work that they tempt.

nomy99 5y ago

I have been in a similar situation and the only thing that helped me was religion. Believing in God removes stress and puts things in perspective for me.

deleted 5y ago
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kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
Among other things, religion helps you realize there are things beyond your control, which is essential to unplugging.

aabhay 5y ago

I don’t have any advice for you, but I can at least say that I’m in a similar boat. I have periods in my past/present where some big challenge lies ahead and my team and I need to sprint HARD to meet it. I originally used to see these moments like a soldier preparing for battle, believing that on the other side that things would be great and I would be proud of the grind. Instead, I sorta look back at those times with a big ‘meh’. If there was success, it wasn’t due to the grind. If there was failure, the grind made it worse. And it put everything else I cared about on the back burner — relationships, health, hobbies, friends. In some ways, I feel that these cycles of grind are partially my destiny, they’re when I’ve done my most challenging and perhaps meaningful work. But it doesn’t match up to my expectations and nowadays I see them as a kind of crutch for not having a better strategy of doing consistently great work. Wondering if anyone has any similar feelings or experiences.

wjossey 5y ago

Hey! You’re not alone. I had huge work life (self induced) challenges for 8 or so years at the start of my career. Similar story to you but not as a founder- I just worked 80+ hours a week by default. Nobody forced me to do it, just my motor. I worked with a psychotherapist for 4 years, once a week, with this being the predominant focus of our time together. She was immensely helpful and between the regular maintenance of those visits and her helping improve my self awareness, I now no longer blitz myself week after week. I certainly still have that motor in me, but I know how to divert it to other activities and focuses like my family, hobbies, and myself. I still love to work because I love what I do, but it’s not how I define my life. Get help. This is sufficiently a problem where it’s impacting your relationships with others, which is a huge red flag.

cosmojg 5y ago
This is definitely the best advice offered thus far. If you haven't sought out professional help yet, give it a whirl and see what happens. For many, it's surprisingly effective and often life-changing.
wut-wut 5y ago
Excellent advice. I wish had more votes to give this comment. I had a similar experience. Working with a therapist helped me learn boundaries and eventually grok (with support, considerable patience, and repetition from her) that I was addicted to 'saving the day', to solving the problem, the pace, chaos, the deluge of information and technical challenges. I was energized by it. I felt smarter when I was in the eye of this storm. It took me quite a long time to fully integrate and understand that working those hours and wearing 'the cape' is toxic to yourself AND others. I assumed that my efforts were wanted, appreciated, and valued. Only in hindsight, did I 'notice' it had the opposite effect. My intentions didn't matter, the high I felt, the passion, and manic energy I radiated was easily misunderstood. I realized too late that my boss and many of my colleagues resented me for these behaviors. It was decsribed as exhausting by a friend. It takes time to learn new habits, to change, and learn boundaries and how to be present. For me, it was worth the effort.
- wjossey 5y ago

goalieca 5y ago

Are you having fun?

pilooch 5y ago

Confidence is the key, but it is sometimes out of reach, even if only momentarily. So rationalizing is one way: about competition first, it doesn't matter (really, like... really), whatever you are doing with focus will end up different than what others do (the state space is too large), and the rest is not within your hands. No need to worry then, it's a recurrent, automatic, bad habit. Now, overall and most useful I believe, what we are doing in tech does not matter, it'll be outdated in months, years, whatever. What matters is the people we are working and spending time with. People first, tech second. Good luck, serenity is within reach, especially in tech, it's a matter of body and mind working well together. Oh and exercising is fundamental, walk, run, dance, jump, ...

browningstreet 5y ago

There’s so much material on this subject. It’s been discussed many times right here at HN. But you are externalizing yourself for your startup, you’re experiencing harm, and you still want an externality to solve the problem for you. You make yourself a victim. You’ll have to sort yourself, by and as yourself, to stop this. You have to really see yourself, to start.

afarrell 5y ago
> by yourself But you can have a friend with you to talk this through. You are not alone, but you need a phone call… not a forum of internet strangers.
mizzao 5y ago
Can you share some of the better discussions and resources you've found for this?

mindhash 5y ago

I was in a similar boat. I turned to books. Read all that I could find in philosophy, leadership, and science of life in general. I also spent lot of time studying other startups and what they did differently to win. The founder fatigue is natural especially when we pour our heart into it. Failure hits hard. I read an interesting discussion between kapil gupta and naval. We attach our 'self' to much with the startup. While most literature focuses on avoiding thoughts, my learning after last couple of years is - the only skilll that can help is patience. Being able to wait is the primary skill I now focus on. Good luck. Some book recommendations: Anything from JD krishnamoorty, why zebras don't get ulcers, extreme leadership, charles duhigg both books, power of now (mindfulness), and most important why we sleep.

russelldjimmy 5y ago
How coincidental. I believe I listened to the same Naval-Kapil talk you are speaking of just last night. Followed by my usual dose of Jiddu Krishnamurti’s talk. K’s videos have struck a chord with me and I try to practice what he talks about.

mehphp 5y ago

What you are describing doesn't sound like a typical "turning off work" situation. Startups, as you know, are a different animal. Are you sure startups are what you want to be doing? Being all-consuming is kinda the nature of the beast...

lr4444lr 5y ago
Seconding this. If the OP has the problem as he describes, he really needs to avoid his trigger, which is the startup work environment.

trollied 5y ago

I had this problem. I started going rock climbing after work. Only having to worry how I was going to get up a wall, and making that my sole focus, really helped create a couple of hours of seperation. I removed work email from my phone, personal computer and ipad. After a while it was easy to just forget about work after 17:30.

sriram_malhar 5y ago

I was in this loop for a while. One day -- a rare Sunday morning when I was home -- I was just laying down on the carpet enjoying the warm sunshine on my face, when a vision of my workplace flashed in my mind. I was stunned to feel my heartbeat thump instantly. That's when I realized how truly stressed I was. The next day I told my manager that instead of the promotion I was due, I would take Fridays off for the same salary. Somehow, when I had two days off I found it easy to overwork on the weekend, but when I decided that every week had to have a 3-day weekend, everything changed. I started spending hours and hours at bookstores and cafes, and walking around SF and Berkeley. Of course it had a downside. I told my team not to hold meetings on Fridays, but they would forget and go ahead without me. My ego used to get bruised at my dispensability! I'm sure I left many career options on the table, but gained many life options. So much so that I eventually started working only six months a year (did it for 19 years), and picked up a PhD (starting at age 42) during those years. There will always be relentless deadlines, but there has to be enough whitespace built into a life. I have retired now, but I still wake up wanting to write code or learn something now.

steveBK123 5y ago
That's a really great career path you were able to plot out, and great your manager at the start of the journey was supportive of it. I think a lot of people don't realize everything is negotiable and you have to set out your own path. That said, you have to make sure you get yourself into the right organization first to make these sort of flexible arrangements. I think 60-75% of firms I have worked at would not allow either % of week / % of year type of arrangements, and the most you might get is a permanent WFH for less pay deal. The amount of stupid things I stayed stupid late for at my previous gig because my manager was a workaholic (as was his own manager). It's never a direct order and rarely even a request, but when your boss just stays in the office til 9pm it makes it hard to walk out the door at 5..6..7pm when theres a pending release/bugfix/etc late going out the door. Likewise when they call you on your cell at 6:45pm without warning to discuss non-urgent issues because they've finally gotten to that email in their inbox..
hjadal 5y ago
When working six months a year how are the work months spaced out? 6 months on and 6 off? Or every other month? It sounds like a very interesting (and appealing) way of living life.

fxtentacle 5y ago

Put your phone into airplane mode and give it to your wife/girlfriend/buddy/kids. Internet articles, modern products, and social media are all optimized to be as addictive as possible. So the first step is to forcibly cut the dopamine loop. FYI, CTO of a startup here. In my experience, co-workers and investors will actually respect you more if you have clear personal boundaries and stick to them. And it's not like "don't call on family day" is such a harsh restriction. The others have family too, you know.

tharkun__ 5y ago
+100 if I could. What you say is especially true of someone in your role (or any higher up role), which in a small startup extends far down I would suppose. When I see the C-levels or even just a level up or sideways mention that they had to work late on this or that or had to have a meeting at 10pm or someone was pulled into a meeting with some C-level at 10pm I loose respect for those people really fast. Work regular hours. Get done what you can get done in those regular hours. Regular hours can mean 11 hours one day and then you take most of Friday off. There's two ways these people loose respect with me: If you have to work 12 hour days to get the same work done as other people, you are maybe not really good at your job or you do too much 'socializing' at work but it makes the actual hard working folks that just finish their work in a regular day look bad. Or you're the workaholic type that just can't stop. At least you're good at your job, perfect. But don't make actual hard working folks look bad.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Yeah it's crazy. My wife was in final round of interviews, about to get an offer, and all seemed to be well, suddenly the hiring manager drops a bomb.. "The team is working 15 hours/day right now, but it should go down as we onboard staff.. and the firm cares about work/life balance so we encourage everyone to take off 2 days per month out of their unlimited vacation". I mean wtf, if they are doing 15hr/day what are you going down to once you staff up.. 12hr/day? If your hiring manager is willing to work his team 15hr/days for months on end then how is he going to look at you trying to work 10hr/days? Note this is not a startup, but an organization with nearly 20k employees. This is not a lottery ticket job that if a product launches successfully she's going to walk away with career/life changing money. It's maybe a 15-20% raise so that she can work 50-80% more hours. Just so dysfunctional. She was super disappointed until we talked about it being a blessing in disguise. If he had come in with a lower number like "12 hours/day but going down" or the compensation was crazy, you would maybe try to talk yourself into it.. or worse if he didn't disclose hours and you took the job..

monological 5y ago

You've become addicted to the dopamine loop of crushing tasks. It's become your "god". You lie to yourself that what your doing is good and worthwhile. You're anticipating the adrenaline rush of that tantalizing future success. You masochistically grind because you know the payout is coming... The only way out is to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. You have to listen to your heart and follow what it says. What that really means is, don't do anything that your inner person doesn't want to really do. Otherwise you'll just be stuck in this endless Pavlovian, button pushing trap called startups.

blastro 5y ago
amen

TriNetra 5y ago

Since last year, I've been changing course of my business to more product driven than consultancy. This has naturally put me into situations of real stress that causes churning in the stomach. The feeling stays for days if not dealt. ON couple of occasions I've successfully eliminated it using the Black Lotus app [0] RARE framework [1]. In the first instance, I chose the goal of being mindful and being stress free for the other. It combines a guided meditation specific for the goal, a breathing exercise, a RAK and some other tiny activities that should not take more than 20-30 minutes a day – but are really powerful. In another occasion, I reflected on the cause of the stress holding conversation with the mind (sitting in meditative cross-legged pose) – what the worse can happen, what are other options etc. etc., and the stress subsided. Basically thoughts are also a form of energy which needs to be released. Either you can channelize them with good meditation or spent them with the bad one, in both cases you do get to feel relax. If you don't do either of these, you end up feeling restless and the more time they remain in your system the more damage they cause. 0: https://www.blacklotus.app/ https://www.blacklotus.app/ 1: https://www.blacklotus.app/about-rare/ https://www.blacklotus.app/about-rare/

brnt 5y ago

> I love my work, but I don't like how it makes me feel. Some choices are more exclusive than others. Life > work.

Spooky23 5y ago

I don’t run a company, but run a large division of one. I describe it as a psychological theme park — you’re king of the world one day, moron the next day, taking care of your people the next. The only thing that has helped me when I feel that way is to take a leap of faith and place trust in others. That thing I think I have to personally oversee really means that I’m not trusting others. That trust problem is usually because I’ve failed as a leader to communicate. So push yourself to do that, and when your comfortable, push yourself to do more. The other thing, which I think men are more vulnerable to, is be careful about defining yourself by work. Your partner or children or whatever need to be a part of what defines you to you. My dad’s recent passing highlighted that for me - he spent 30 years and accomplished a lot in an field that impacted many people positively. But when friends and family all came together… that just wasn’t something that mattered. The little (and big) things that he did for people mattered. One person somehow travelled from abroad during COVID to pay respects and share how my dad helped him out in a small way that redefined his life. I’d ask that you just think about what matters. Deal with the stuff that has to be dealt with, but don’t let it define you. Shipping some feature is what you do, not who you are.

baby 5y ago

Just quit. Moving on, change of sceneries, etc. Allows you to reinvent yourself. Start from scratch again.

jyriand 5y ago

What I have learned is that every behavior serves a inner goal or purpose. You can try to figure out what the goal is by asking "by doing this what am I avoiding or what am I seeking".

higeorge13 5y ago

I had the same problem. Do any or all of the following: - Seek professional help. This is the number one advice and will be extremely helpful. - Remove all work-related accounts from you personal laptop and mobile. Try not to search for your work during your spare time. Search for something else, sports, books, tv series, anything. - Find a hobby with a strict schedule to follow after work, and ideally a (short) goal-oriented one. Rock climbing is perfect because you have short term task to succeed (similar to your day-to-day tasks and tickets), but any of them can work. Just set a goal with your coach, e.g. play your first tennis match with an opponent in 6 months and so on. - Move on. This is probably the hardest, but you really have to consider that this job or life style is not helping you and you need to change to something different. A different job, a non-startup job, a new house, a different neighbourhood, city, anything that can shock your system, help you relax and find some peace, and eventually strengthen your relationship with your partner. - Instead of setting goals only for your work life, set some goals for your personal one, e.g. make a new friend within 2021, travel to Asia within 6 months and so on. Revisit them every now and then, and check how you are doing. Best of luck to you.

charbonneau 5y ago

Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening a thief visited the hut only to discover there was nothing to steal. Ryokan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away. Ryoken sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."

Nabati 5y ago
Can't wear a beautiful moon.
quickthrower2 5y ago
What about the hut? A mortgage free residence is an excellent gift
fallat 5y ago
Epitectus would have said: "take my life, for if that's what you wish, have it, but know it will not be easy."

lwn 5y ago

I ran my life into a train-wreck, after doing a start-up. I'm still recovering from a burn-out. Luckily I still have my wife and kids around. They also had to put up with a lot. Some advice: 1. Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana: https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index It will learn you to 'listen and intercept' your impulses so you can deal with 'work-triggers' more easily 2. Turn your notifications off, forever. Train yourself discipline on order not to look on your electronic devices all the time 3. For every 'effort' you take, there should be an equal amount of recreation. Exerting and relaxing should be in balance (Keep in mind, using a screen is not relaxing) 4. Eat healthy, plenty of outdoors/ nature and exercise.

acituan 5y ago
> Go do a ten day retreat with Vipassana No, no, no. Spiritual retreats are not self-regulation tools, they are an education. 10 day intensive during a burnout is asking for trouble. It can’t be your first contact with Vipassana and if you use it to bypass what you need to solve, you’ll end up worse. Just rest, engage with mundane, real life (think sunshine, nature, using your body, eating well, laughing with friends etc), then do a “postmortem” on why did this happen and how can you prevent it; ideally with a therapist. After things are back to a normal, then you can add more practices like Vipassana, just start from the shallow end.
- lwn 5y ago
  Hmmm, I haven't though about it in this way. You do have a good point. Creating bypasses for problems is very realistic.
balfirevic 5y ago
> Keep in mind, using a screen is not relaxing Why would watching a movie, sports game or playing a video game not be relaxing?
- david-gpu 5y ago
  Your mind stays busy. It is much better to go out for a walk and simply remain present.

option_greek 5y ago

It might sound weird but apart from the standard advice you are going to receive about pills, therapy and mental gymnastics, in my personal experience becoming more spiritual helps. I know its not a popular thing in a any tech circles to even think about it but it does help. And spirituality need not involve any religion. You can try philosophies like Zen or Advaita which basically reduces you to being a doer aiming for the best way to do things without caring for the outcome. These philosophies reduce the attachment to material success and paradoxically also help you do your best on any given task because your mind is free. Its like you are a plumber or electrician who got called for consultation. You give your best possible advice and try doing the best possible work but if the customer faces the problem again, you might not feel the pain personally.

tobmlt 5y ago

“Winning” at this work is not worth “dying” at life. But that is just “words words words” and I cannot make it mean for you what it means for me. Self introspection is nonlinear and non-rational to a real extent. Love letter to hacker news: neither of those things is bad. Just different than engineering thinking. Do not seek to engineer your mind’s thinking, if you seek lasting happiness. Instead work to find your innermost workings (feelings fears ideals etc) and integrate them into your conscious day. Integrate fear? Why yes. Do not push it down… Back to the task at hand. More linearly now: Why do you love this work you do? Ask the hardest questions and seek the hardest answers. Maybe you are on the right path for yourself. I don’t think you would have posted this if you really believed it. I love my work too, and something about it is killing me. It is not the thing I love (the science, the math, the physics, the code) that is killing me, but the toxic nature of the environment in which I seem to have to practice it in order to make a living. For me, there is a riddle to be solved. The things i love are not toxic, but they are mixed with things that are. My workaday life is heavy with toxicity. Can the good be separated from the toxic? Or do I have to go and become a river guide, bum, or base jumper? Perhaps I just need to meditate on these things. (I’ve turned my comment intentionally at myself, because I cannot be so hubristic as to know what specific advice to offer you) I will say, if you have to work in an environment of toxic stress, the first fear to root out is the fear of failure. Make peace with that fear in the strongest way. Your fear blocks your success. Find this way, if you can: Work as one who is at play. Otherwise quit and make another way to work on the things you love which is more healthy.

notexhausted 5y ago

Posting anon for obvious reasons. After 15yrs of aggressive, upward growth positions and three years of my own startup, I landed what seemed to be an awesome job at a Series A startup. The company is completely mismanaged, overstaffed, on a collision course, and yet the best job I ever had. I'm not a crook - so I do put in an honest 40hrs to collect my modest 200k salary (modest given my experience.) However, the company is so mismanaged by the C-Suite and so far gone there is no pressure to go beyond the 40hrs/week. The C-Suite is already destroying the firm, why bother plugging holes on a sinking ship on my spare time? I enjoy the work, my co-workers, but really enjoy the free evenings and free weekends. Best experience of my life while it lasts. No longer have headaches. Have friends that I spend time with. Enjoy the outdoors. I wish I could have the same at a company that was not mismanaged, because i'm sure it can happen. Our tech org is strong, just the MBAs in the CSuite cant seem to get out of our way.

knodi 5y ago

If you don't figure out how to control this I'm afraid startups are not for you. Find a job somewhere you'll be happy with, without this stress of constant burden of startups. You need to stop killing your self over this.

WontonDon 5y ago

Working on the things you love should energize you. Consider if you are truly passionate about the things you are currently working on right now. If you are having fun and are genuinely building something cool, you'll be very productive. The second order effect is that you'll be more financially successful(stable family) and happy(mental health).

Torwald 5y ago

> If any of you have a good way of "turning off" in order to keep your family stable and mental health okay, please let me know. Neil Fiore's "Unschedule"

bitexploder 5y ago

I have run an infosec consultancy for the last 8 years with a couple partners. You got a lot of good advice already, but I’ll throw in my two points: 1. You need a hobby outside of business. Something you look forward to at a lot that is intrinsically rewarding. Physical in nature is a plus for me. BJJ is my hobby and it’s great. 2. Stoicism. The dichotomy of control specifically is powerful. Sort your life into buckets of what you can control and what you can’t. Acknowledge your limits. Can you really work productively and deeply even 60 or 70 hours a week? Honestly, find a therapist. Someone you can lay out your mental goals with and be held accountable. You will need to explore this and find out what’s at the root of the overwork. What’s truly important to you? How can you get there healthy and sustainable.

stadium 5y ago
Stoicism is a tricky concept to internalize without first dealing with the underlying emotional responses. Learning about something and knowing it's a better way feels good in the short term, but the risk for someone stuck in some deep emotional traumas like OP described is similar to telling an alcoholic to stop drinking. Definitely +1 on the therapy
- bitexploder 5y ago
  The modern approach is for a therapist to get you to use CBT, which has a lot of roots in stoic philosophy. I backed into it over time… it’s powerful, but I could see how it can make things worse too. It’s something that definitely takes time to understand and integrate. I use the pieces that make sense. Especially the dichotomy of control (hence my recommendation). It’s simple enough to help sort out life problems and focus on what can be impacted. When it all clicks though, it can make life decisions effortless (in my experience). Not for everyone though :)
christophilus 5y ago
I think the hobby recommendation is a good one. When I was in a similar strait, I found rock climbing took me completely out of my headspace. If you’ve got access to a good rock climbing gym, I highly recommend it.

throwaway6734 5y ago

>As the founder of a startup, I would routinely pull 100 hour weeks I don't understand how anyone could be remotely productive under these settings unless it was all grind work. How many "fresh" hours of work would you say this was equivalent to?

apatters 5y ago

I am an owner/founder who has experienced similar anxieties and the answer was cognitive behavioral therapy and drugs, both managed by a good therapist. The CBT can effect long term changes in your thinking and behavior, and temper your anxieties permanently. The drugs can make the anxieties disappear temporarily and immediately and are best used infrequently in situations where the price of impaired performance is high. (Many doctors overprescribe them imo.) It took several years of slow progress but probably 75% of my anxieties are gone. I don't overwork myself, I don't worry about things unless it benefits me to do so, and I rarely miss out on a good night's sleep. You can change.

wolverine876 5y ago

Maybe startups, or at least the roles you have, don't suit you. Just like your startup, the tactic is to quickly learn what doesn't work and pivot, and to not endlessly pursue something that isn't working. It might seem unthinkable, but that is a good sign that you are trapping yourself and inflexible. If you worry what everyone else will think if you leave the startup world, you are looking at the wrong market. When you find something that suits you, I promise you will never regret it.

parksy 5y ago

I can only share my experience, if it's relevant and helps that's great, but as always everyone has different circumstances so take it with a grain of salt. As someone who grew up never able to accept failure (I remember my first B in high school quite vividly), this fear drove a lot of my anxiety in my 20's and 30's. Fear can be helpful as a survival tool that warns of danger. Anxiety can be hugely motivating but it will eat away at you, like having your own inner Gordon Ramsay screaming at you 100% of the time to be better. Some advice never worked for me in the past like "foster a work life balance by doing x, y and z" or "these simple automations will free your mind from work" etc - that kind of prescriptive steps-to-success stuff was like putting a bandage on a burning house, just completely the wrong remedy for what I had going on. I have been getting monthly CBT with a clinical psychologist for the past year and it's been wonderfully helpful. I see it like taking your mind in for a tune up at the brain-garage. Sometimes you'll wonder if that oil change was really necessary and grumble at the expense, other times a simple oil change will dislodge something that was held together by old gunk and you'll need to spend some extra time to replace a worn out part or two, but afterwards you'll be running a lot more efficiently. Another thing that has helped was simple meditation, nothing spiritual, just setting aside quiet time each day to sit still, disconnect, and focus on calming the mind. It might seem counter intuitive to draw on that house fire analogy to sit still in the midst of it all, but think of meditation or therapy as a fire extinguisher instead and it makes more sense. It's really tough to advise because we're all different, however the way I see it now, there's an entire profession of people who specialise in debugging minds, finding a therapist I could gel with and making serious time for it helped me, possibly saved my life even. It might be the best investment in myself I've ever made. Good luck with the launch, sorry to hear you've been having a difficult time of it, it definitely isn't easy.

beckman466 5y ago

> I've already alienated my partner enough that I have to move out. My whole life has become devoured by this puzzle I'm so sorry to hear this. When I was facing similar circumstances the most absurd part of it was that I thought these things were my fault. It isn't. Mental health has been depoliticized and it's roots obscured. Mark Fisher writes: > The UK's National Health Service (NHS), like the education system and other public services, has been forced to try to deal with the social and psychic damage caused by the deliberate destruction of solidarity and security. Where once workers would have turned to trade unions when they were put under increasing stress, now they are encouraged to go to their GP or, if they are lucky enough to be able to be get one on the NHS, a therapist. > It would be facile to argue that every single case of depression can be attributed to economic or political causes; but it is equally facile to maintain – as the dominant approaches to depression do – that the roots of all depression must always lie either in individual brain chemistry or in early childhood experiences. Most psychiatrists assume that mental illnesses such as depression are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, which can be treated by drugs. But most psychotherapy doesn't address the social causation of mental illness either. > The radical therapist David Smail argues that Margaret Thatcher's view that there's no such thing as society, only individuals and their families, finds "an unacknowledged echo in almost all approaches to therapy". Therapies such as cognitive behaviour therapy combine a focus on early life with the self-help doctrine that individuals can become masters of their own destiny. The idea is "with the expert help of your therapist or counsellor, you can change the world you are in the last analysis responsible for, so that it no longer cause you distress" – Smail calls this view "magical voluntarism". > Depression is the shadow side of entrepreneurial culture, what happens when magical voluntarism confronts limited opportunities. As psychologist Oliver James put it in his book The Selfish Capitalist, "in the entrepreneurial fantasy society," we are taught "that only the affluent are winners and that access to the top is open to anyone willing to work hard enough, regardless of their familial, ethnic or social background – if you do not succeed, there is only one person to blame." It's high time that the blame was placed elsewhere. We need to reverse the privatisation of stress and recognise that mental health is a political issue. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/16/mental-health-political-issue https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/16/mental...

diob 5y ago

I had the same issue until I went to therapy. I would suggest trying that out. They can help you think differently (in my case I grew up in a very dysfunctional family, look up adult children of alcoholics, we're often workaholics), and in some cases you might want to consider trying a medication for anxiety like Zoloft. It may seem weird, but I didn't realize just how much it affected me until I got on medication myself. Now I feel free. I can still do great work and focus, but I'm not compelled to. I'm happy to focus on myself as well.

sjg007 5y ago

Sounds like you need help figuring out how to create boundaries. Start by practicing saying "no". If someone asks you to do something, say no. Keep at it.

treme 5y ago

Two bandaid solutions for dealing with stress I'd recommend Yoga Nidra - one of best ways calm your nerve system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noquwycq78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_noquwycq78 EMDR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM& it's going to sound crazy but just give it a shot. Just focus on the moving dot when feeling extremely stressed. Check out the top comments for rough how to guide, but just focusing to follow the ball alone will being immediate relief. science behind it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZVw-9ThmSM&t=31s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZVw-9ThmSM&t=31s Long term solutions: Stoic philosophy... Imagining worst case scenarios playing out, and making peace with it. in your case, worst case is you fail and pick yourself back up working as software engineer with great salary. You'll manage ok. Figuring out your stress-destress equation to figure out a sustainable balance of workload and sticking to it(I imagine very difficult to do in most startups). Seeking professional help.

afarrell 5y ago

1. Be willing to accept run of the mill advice. Your problem is not tricky—it is instead dreadfully frightening and painfully difficult. 2. Go for a walk outside while listening to Brené Brown audiobooks. 3. Talk to humans who can actually calmly listen —- Not people as disconnected as an internet forum nor someone as intertwined as a life partner.

yosefjaved1 5y ago

You'll need to remove things from your environment that's causing you to stress out and start making changes to your daily routine that are also exacerbating the stress. You'll never be able to completely get rid of the stress, but you can mitigate the impact it has on your life significantly so that it often times is more positive than negative. What are all those things that are causing you to stress? That I'm not certain. However, here are some things you can do: 1. Seek professional help. If there is an option to see a therapist for cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) then I would highly recommend you consider it. The therapist can help you identify things in your life that you otherwise never considered. 2. Remove Twitter and Discord from your phone. If you're constantly checking it and it's butting into your life then you need to remove them. For me personally, I removed nearly all social media and chat services from my devices. I still have slack (don't have a choice) but shut off all notifications after 5pm. 3. Find a hobby outside of work. I don't care if it's sports, videogames, board games, etc just find something outside of work that you enjoy and can help you unwind.

mattlutze 5y ago

I too love having hard work to do and pouring myself into being a part of as much as I can. I have discovered that, when my personal life has suffered and waned, it's because I'm trying to be a part of too much of the work. The choice I've needed to make is whether I can give up some of the direct personal responsibility that I've internalized over the success of the program I run (big company). If you can't be aware of the limits to your personal capacity, you'll end up living in the exhausted, stress-hormone-overdosed purgatory of burnout land, your body rebelling against your refusal to "go home" at the end of the day. On the "things to do" side, I do better now that I keep a phone for work and don't put any work anything on my personal phone. I do carry both through the day, but I put the work one face down when I'm done and leave it on my desk until the next day. The work computer is similarly separate from where I'm writing right now, and it too goes on silent mode and closed when I'm done. I'll go as far some weeks to unplug it on Friday and tuck it away, just to really remind myself that I'm not on the clock.

stevejb 5y ago

Something you can take from Judaism is the concept of Shabbat where you can take 1 day a week to devote to family, study (that isn't related to your job), personal things, host a dinner with some friend (COVID permitting, of course). Clearly you don't have to be religious to do this, but you can take a dogmatic approach (e.g. your Shabbat starts at a certain time and is not reschedulable, Slack and work email are off during this period, etc.). It seems to be a time honoured approach to maintaining some balance in life.

dabfiend19 5y ago

huge bong rip at 7pm everyday really works wonders for me. while it can increase the anxiety for some, and even me sometimes, it's always causes a "head change" where I'm like "why am I just staring at my screen right now?"

ransom1538 5y ago

You might want to look at beta blockers and talk with your doctor. (eg: propranolol). These are non addictive and will turn off the receptors causing panic and fear. Some people cannot 'think it away' and need medical help.

MagicWishMonkey 5y ago

I've done the startup thing twice and that was enough to make me realize it just isn't worth it. There's a 99% chance that in 2-3 years the startup will implode and you're going to hate yourself for getting so involved that you drove away your partner. Not worth it. Not even a little bit.

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mizzao 5y ago

I seem to have similar issues and personality as you. I co-founded a startup last year and started at a frenetic pace, but was unable to turn myself off. Over the last 3-4 months, the insane productivity was replaced by constant anxiety which mutated to burnout, and forced me to take a break from the company because I basically stopped functioning. At this point, it seems the choices are either figure out how to set boundaries with myself and work at a sustainable pace, or just avoid these kinds of positions (founder is probably the most extreme type) and the addiction to work that they tempt.