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There’s a question of preferences that too often gets buried in this debate. If Covid becomes endemic at around its current severity, what level of pandemic res
by dcolkitt 5y ago
There’s a question of preferences that too often gets buried in this debate. If Covid becomes endemic at around its current severity, what level of pandemic restrictions are you willing to accept forever?
For me personally, Covid would have to be at least 100 times worse before I’d support masking forever. But I get the sense that some people barely see any downside to it. I think these cross-views drive so much if the underlying debate. But because we’re not talking about the hard long-term questions we’re getting bogged down in largely short term spats about case spikes, vaccine boosters, etc.
- aflag 5y agoWhat's so bad about face masks? Just trying to understand.
- OliverGilan 5y agoI wear glasses and masks are basically untenable. I have yet to wear a mask and not fog up my glasses. Maybe I'm just an idiot, I don't know, but being able to see properly is far more valuable to me than not getting COVID (in it's current state and threat level to me).
- dboreham 5y agoWith some work it's possible to find and fit masks that don't fog glasses. Fwiw in order to work effectively as an "outbound" filter , the mask must not duct exhaled air around it's seal with the face. So fogging means it isn't working.
- jader201 5y agoThen most masks, by your logic (and not necessarily arguing your logic) aren’t working. The only way to completely seal off your mouth and nose is to wear a more fitted mask. The masks most (probably 99%+) people are wearing are ducting air on either side of the nose. And yes, most masks have the metal piece to help with this, but it doesn’t work. No matter how I adjust the metal piece, air makes its way out. So if what you’re saying is true, these cloth/disposable masks are not working, and the CDC should be telling everyone to stop wearing them, and switch to ones that properly seal your nose/mouth. > With some work it's possible to find and fit masks that don't fog glasses. I’m not convinced this is true, or maybe my face just won’t work with the typical mask. But most (all?) people I know that have glasses fog them up, with any amount of adjustment of the metal piece/mask. EDIT: I see a downvote already, so curious how this is a flawed extrapolation. My logic is simply assuming the parent’s logic is true, and extrapolating from that. I’m not explicitly agreeing or disagreeing with it. A downvote means you either feel my extrapolation is flawed (please explain), or you think the parent’s logic is flawed (in which case you shouldn’t be downvoting my extrapolation).
- JackFr 5y agoI think cloth masks are at the crossroads of wishful thinking and public health theater. They absolutely have legitimate medical uses, and can prevent droplet borne disease transmission and thus there is a plausible mechanism by which they reduce spread. But I don’t think there’s any serious evidence that they are anything more than marginal with respect to the spread of COVID.
- shaklee3 5y agoThat's not true. There have been plenty of studies showing cloth masks help significantly over nothing, and especially if it's a double layer mask. The cotton ones that are breathable are worse.
- qiqitori 5y agoA tiny hole in your defense is better than a huge hole. Maybe something like this might work better for you? https://www.benosy.com/#welcome https://www.benosy.com/#welcome
- jader201 5y agoAgain, I’m not claiming they don’t work, the parent is. I’m simply stating that if they don’t work, the CDC shouldn’t claim that they do. I’m basically saying that either the parent is wrong, or the CDC is wrong.
- mdtancsa 5y agoI am in the same boat with glasses. In the winter, I use some decent quality medical tape across the top of the mask to prevent fogging. The 3M medical paper tape works really well and is not too sticky and doesnt irritate my skin.
- sa1 5y agoThere are also anti-fogging solutions (basically soap solutions) available to apply on glasses.
- karlshea 5y agoI can say from experience these do not work in the winter in Minnesota.
- tastyfreeze 5y agoThe only masks I have found that dont fog glasses are ones that have a metal wire bridge. It can be pinched to form fit the profile of your face. Now if I could just get my beard to stop pulling the mask down when I talk I would be happy.
- dystroy 5y ago30 years ago I switched to daily contact lenses to be able to play rugby. This was one of the best switches of my life and of course today I have no problem with masks. If you can, I really advise this. Another option would be to wear a more efficient mask, a less leaking one. I find FFP2 to be quite convenient past the first few seconds when you're surprised by the difference of air flow. Those masks have the advantage of not moving, you don't typically have to adjust them and there's no fog on glasses.
- ls612 5y agoI for one like having the right to show my face in public
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y agoI for one like to not have to look at peoples mouths/noses, nor do I like to smell their breath/perfume/cologne/bo.
- betwixthewires 5y agoWell we should all accommodate you then.
- themaninthedark 5y agoNot everyone has to wear a mask in order for you to wear one.
- s5300 5y agoYou may find this sentiment to sour in our near future in which it will be mandatory to show your face in public for facial recognition tech to keep track of you...
- jrockway 5y agoI agree with that. I've never felt better about walking around in public. If I trip over myself and look like a fool and someone posts it to Instagram, nobody will know it's me! It's great! (No I've never tripped over myself and had it posted to Instagram. But I do worry about it!)
- soledades 5y agoThere is a material difference between a world of masks and a world of faces.
- cryptonector 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iaIYlcD_Po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iaIYlcD_Po
- nneonneo 5y agoYour video claims that masks don’t work because they’ll leak vape smoke. However, masks aren’t meant to be airtight, but rather a barrier against droplets (like the kind expelled when you cough or sneeze). Droplets are what primarily carry the virus across long distances.
- cryptonector 5y agoYes, they work on droplets. Obviously you didn't watch the whole thing. No, droplets are not the only mode for delivering the virus.
- sethammons 5y agohttps://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... This says that the virus can be an aerosol and that this is what causes infection after long time periods after a spreader was in the area. Can someone confirm if vape is an appropriate analog to aerosol virus in our breath? If so, the video is very convincing that masks are ineffective at preventing infection.
- cryptonector 5y agoAerosol covid viral particles are much, much smaller than the spaces between the fibers of a cloth mask, or an N95 mask, and anyways, you can see the vape going out the sides.
- eutectic 5y agoThis shows that masks aren't perfect, not that they don't help.
- 5y ago
- dcolkitt 5y agoSocializing is extremely high friction in a mask. Pre-mask, I'd make small talk with store clerks or waiters all the time. After masking, I can count on one hand the number of times that happened. You struggle to understand people's muffled words, they struggle to understand yours. Facial expressions, the most important component of non-verbal communication, are half-hidden. Conveying a smile, the universal way to express warmth, is completely not possible. Happiness psychology research has confirmed again and again that pleasant interactions with other humans is one of the primary sources of joy in our lives. Seeing each other faces is a critical component of that. People who lose their legs or arms will recover to baseline happiness in a year or so. People who's faces are disfigured never recover. The face is the core of human interaction.
- taylorfinley 5y agoIf masking persists and it becomes a long-term norm, communication will evolve around the constraints. I'm reminded of a story of a Somali prisoner who was nearly suicidal in solitary confinement until a prisoner in another cell taught him something like morse code, eventually even reading him Anna Karenina, tap by tap.[0] Humans will overcome any constraints to communicate. 0: https://www.npr.org/2017/09/11/550058353/rough-translation-how-anna-karenina-saved-a-somali-inmates-life https://www.npr.org/2017/09/11/550058353/rough-translation-h...
- 1123581321 5y agoInspiring but must be considered alongside all the people who struggle in prison with isolation to the deterioration of their mental and physical health, plus those who are not imprisoned who nevertheless struggle due to speech impediments, deformities and other issues that impede face-to-face interaction. We greatly benefit from normalizing a certain ease of socialization.
- elif 5y agoOkay relax. that's being dramatic. My cute cat mask does not give me the psychological conditioning of a person with a permanently disfigured face.
- JackFr 5y agoEating, drinking, smiling, frowning, grimacing, talking, kissing, recognizing our friends are all social activities that are impeded by masks. Humans are social animals.
- krapp 5y agoPeople tend to take their masks off while eating, drinking and kissing. It's easy to tell when someone is smiling or frowning even if they're wearing a mask (unless their expressions are extremely subtle), and recognizing people when they're wearing a mask is no more difficult than with a mask off. I suppose everyone's situation is different but I haven't noticed any change in the way people interact around me socially with or without a mask.
- tiahura 5y ago“what level of pandemic restrictions are you willing to accept forever?” That’s the question our leaders seem to be terrified to answer. How long until Fauci admits that its not just going to go away?
- solarengineer 5y agoNon-American here from Singapore. There’s “not going away” and then there’s “are enough vaccinated? Are the vulnerable vaccinated? Do we have hospital bed and nurse +doctor capacity?” Here in Singapore, we’re ensuring that those above 60 get vaccinated where feasible before we fully open up. Meanwhile, with an increasing percentage of the population getting vaccinated, there are gradual lifting of controls. The Ministerial Task Force have said a few months ago that Singapore will have to prepare for the possibility that COVID 19 will be endemic. I suggest that rather than take potshots at Faucci, it’d be wise to understand whether your hospital systems are ready for an upsurge in those who need to be hospitalised.
- tiahura 5y agoI think you’re probably right that lockdown measures should track, inter alia, projected hospital utilization. However, the message we’re still receiving is that the lockdown remains necessary because if we can just maintain it a bit longer, COVID will go away. It seems a bit disingenuous, sorta like “free beer…tomorrow.”
- manwe150 5y agoIf you look at past graphs, the US could have been fully vaccinated by mid-June or perhaps July. The current problems faced by the hospital system in some areas of the US were probably avoidable, so what is true for Singapore’s policies is not the same in the US. But it is likely quite hard to predict hospital utilization, since it changes many weeks after we needed to change behaviors to maybe avoid it.
- s5300 5y agoSpeaking of the US I think at this point, most of the vaccinated would no longer care if it weren't for the fact that procedures for things like cancer treatments and major surgeries are being outright canceled, for months, so that all resources can be spent treating all of the unvaxxed who are now scared enough about their "little cough" that they need to go to the doctor for it.
- Koshkin 5y agoFor you personally, with Covid being 100 times as bad as it has already been, wearing or not wearing a mask would most likely no longer make any difference.
- Jeema101 5y agoI hope I am mistaken here, but... are you saying that it would need to kill 1/6th of the population every year (instead of 1/600) before you will consider putting a piece of cloth over your face? What's so terrible about wearing a mask?
- throw_nbvc1234 5y agoNot OP but my 2 cents is that we'll look back at this (and the time before covid) and wonder why we never mandated masks in places like doctor's offices and hospitals long before this. With Covid in the equation, maybe you extend that to places like grocery stores as well. I think the thought process around this greatly changes if you look at the problem on a societal or individual level. For example (with fake numbers) if a cloth mask protects is 50% effective, it's worth it on a societal level (prevents 50% of infections which makes a huge impact on hospital load) but not on an individual level (you only need 1 infection to catch the disease and die). However my problems with masks long-term on an individual level are: - Where's it's theatrical such as outdoors; why do i need to wear a mask when running outside by myself, or when playing soccer outdoors. My city required this for a while and many people still choose to do this even while walking their dogs by themselves. Bars/restaurants; Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't seem very helpful to wear mask for 30 seconds while you walk to your table then sit there talking/yelling for hours while eating and drinking without the mask on. Or (something i know much less about) if simple cloth masks are really less effective (on an individual vs pandemic/societal level) then N95 masks, then why is the mandate just to wear cloth masks. - The philosophical problem of shifting the burden of protecting immune-compromised people onto all of society rather then finding a solution that is centered on them directly. Why should everyone at a concert be forced to wear a mask when a) it's a dangerous environment to be in if you don't have a health immune system. it was before the pandemic and it will be afterwards as well. b) why don't you just create an immune-compromised "vip" section instead (maybe with whatever technologies required to ensure the virus doesn't cross the boundary. c) If (again not sure on this) wearing something like an N95 mask "100%" protects the immune-compromised, why do the rest of us need to take action as well. Relying on 99% of people to protect 1% seems like it should be the last resort solution in a long-term endemic sense. I don't think it's worth debating the details of this today because the answer will require lots of nuance and data that doesn't and cannot exist today. What variant(s) become endemic? How much of the population is considered vulnerable to those variants? What technologies are available to protect people at an individual level? How prevalent is testing 5 years from now? How effective are the vaccines over long periods of time? ect...
- zapataband1 5y agoWe're in the middle of a novel pandemic and children are apparently filling up ICUs, I could care less about what people on hackernews's 'preferences' on masks are. Let's be grown up and listen to the Doctors.
- vanviegen 5y ago> children are apparently filling up ICUs They are??
- yosame 5y agoIt's unclear at this point, but it's not looking great https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/pediatric-numbers-3-things-to-keep https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/pediatric-num...
- marton78 5y agoIn which country are children filling up ICUs?
- nerdponx 5y agoI feel like masking is such an inconsequential restriction in the grand scheme of things. If anything, we probably should just be wearing masks in enclosed spaces all the time anyway. I for one am perfectly happy to have a mask in between myself and people's nasty sneeze air on the subway, or exhaust from the millions of vehicles on the road (I have masks with replaceable PM2.5 filter inserts), and now I'm grateful that nobody thinks I'm weird for wanting this. Go play in the dirt if you want germs.
- johnchristopher 5y ago> But because we’re not talking about the hard long-term questions we’re getting bogged down in largely short term spats about case spikes, vaccine boosters, etc. Masking is not a hard long-term question though. Masking is easy and doesn't require much. Restrictions in liberties implemented through a mandatory covid pass to enter a restaurant, a concert hall, cross a border or travel too far, mandatory vaccinations for certain working categories of people, etc. are way harder.
- mint2 5y agoWell in a year or two, barring extra bad mutations, well have reached a Covid steady state of sorts. Right now we’re still very much in the initial phase. Are you saying you want mask restrictions to end now or are you saying you support them until we’re out of the initial phases in a year or so?