14 ms·

Launch HN: Ancana (YC S21) – Fractional ownership of vacation homes

83 points by rblack44 5y ago

Hi, we're Andres and Ryan, the founders of Ancana (https://en.ancana.co/ https://en.ancana.co/). Ancana is a marketplace for buying fully managed vacation homes through fractional ownership. Demand for vacation homes has driven up their price, putting these properties out of reach for most buyers, who only plan to use the home a few weeks a year. This pushes many people into timeshares, which are notorious for hidden fees, pushy sales tactics, and difficulty to sell. With Ancana, you can own a 1/4 or 1/8 share of the home and split expenses with the other co-owners. If you buy a 1/4 share of a home, you have access to it for 3 months of the year. For each property we set up the investment trust, find qualified co-owners, and handle the entire real estate purchase transaction. Costs are split amongst the co-owners, and we take care of the furnishing and ongoing property management. We accomplish this by creating an investment trust for each property and dividing it into individual, purchasable shares that represent ownership in the property. We furnish each home and find and vet the co-owners. Once all of the shares of the property are sold, we retain no ownership stake in the property and transition into the role of property manager, ensuring the home is well maintained and handling any issues that arise. Unlike a timeshare, Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time. If you decide you want to sell your share, you are free to do so at any time, either through us or on the open market, and capture any appreciation the property has accrued. Once you own one of these homes, our goal is to make scheduling visits to the property as easy and equitable as possible. Our scheduling system breaks a 12-month booking window into "high-demand" dates/seasons and "general" stays. Each co-owner selects 1 high-demand date before additional bookings are permitted. Priority order is determined by the owner's purchase date (1st buyer gets 1st choice, 2nd buyer gets 2nd choice, etc), with the order rotating each year (2nd buyer gets 1st selection in year 2, 3rd buyer gets 1st selection in year 3, etc.). Outside of the initial high-demand selection process, co-owners are free to book the property anywhere from 2 days to 12-months in advance, up to their allotted days per year. We'd love to speak to any of you that are curious about fractional ownership or have any ideas for where we should go next or how to improve our offering!

thiscatis 5y ago
If it looks like a timeshare and smells like a timeshare, it’s a timeshare. If there’s no secondary free market to sell these “fractional ownerships” it’s just forced rent I can’t resell.
- dmos62 5y ago
  You should have read the post before commenting. > Unlike a timeshare, Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time. If you decide you want to sell your share, you are free to do so at any time, either through us or on the open market, and capture any appreciation the property has accrued.
  - thiscatis 5y ago
    “Open market” yeah right
  - Dobbs 5y ago
    and as others have pointed out many timeshares say this exact same thing.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    That doesn't mean there is someone willing to buy it on the other end.
    - rblack44 5y ago
      demand for this model of ownership is exploding. From a buyer's perspective there is no functional difference between the primary and secondary market. It is certainly more liquid than a timeshare and in most cases easier to sell than an entire home given the lower upfront and maintenance costs
  - smabie 5y ago
    What open market? There's no liquidity there.
- rblack44 5y ago
  One way to look at this is unlike a timeshare, Ancana has no ownership interest in the property. Resorts own the property and sell you access to that property. At the point all of the shares are sold, we become property managers. You don't have to sell the share back to us like you do with timeshares - in fact, we don't purchase shares back. You are free to list your fraction with an agent of your choosing or sell to your own network at whatever price you desire. Given that we have a large list of qualified leads, we are happy to list your fraction for sale, but that is not a requirement. Curious why you think there is no secondary market for these homes. The primary market is exploding for this model of ownership and given the limited inventory of vacation homes on the market, we think the secondary market is also going to be very large
ghostly_s 5y ago
Why are you describing timeshares as if it's some sort of innovation?
- rblack44 5y ago
  I understand the confusion, but we are definitely not a timeshare. With Ancana you own real property, not a block of time. You have the flexibility to book stays throughout the year vs. annual bookings with timeshares. And if you ever want to sell your interest in an Ancana home, you can do so just like a normal home. If the property has increased in value, you capture that appreciation. With timeshares you are forced to sell your "time" back to the resort at highly discounted rates, not at market value.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  That's how you sell timeshares, by describing your particular implementation as innovation, often by explicit misrepresentation of the existing ones or implicit misrepresentation of yours (describing others maintenance/management fees as expensive and/or hidden while you have and do not highlight your own fees of the same kind being a common example of the latter.)
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    I think it's unfair to critique by pattern matching. "What's wrong with this model" is what should be focused on.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    My parents have been timeshare owners for years so I'm very familiar with the sales tactics resorts use. Regardless of how they spin it, all you really own is a block of time. With Ancana your purchase is a deeded right to the property. You are an actual home owner. Where the difference becomes clear is when you can use the property (fixed weeks vs. on-demand) and what happens when you want to sell the property. Resorts force you to sell your time back to them and they dictate the prices. With an Ancana home, we will help find a buyer from our network of qualified leads, or you are free to sell through an agent of your choosing or on your own. The market dictates what the property sells for, not Ancana. We retain no ownership stake in the property once all of the fractions are sold. As for fees, we simply split the ongoing property costs amongst the co-owners with no markup. We do charge an annual management fee for administering and maintaining the property, but this is fixed and transparent.
LivelyTortoise 5y ago
Quick UI issue I noticed - on the English version of the site, some of the text is still in Spanish. For example the banners on the top-right of the photos at https://en.ancana.co/properties https://en.ancana.co/properties say '30% vendido' etc, and the property description on https://en.ancana.co/properties/seis-encantos https://en.ancana.co/properties/seis-encantos is in Spanish. (Also, the column title 'Completion Date' is repeated twice in the property details table).
- rblack44 5y ago
  Thanks for taking a peek! As two non-technical founders, we ran into some limitations using Wix. Fortunately, we have a new site launching in a week or so that we are pretty excited about that fixes the bugginess of the current site. Stay tuned!
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atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Can you help me understand the key difference here between this and Pacaso (I think from one of the Zillow founders)? https://www.pacaso.com/ https://www.pacaso.com/
- rblack44 5y ago
  Very similar model. We are currently operating in different markets (US vs. Mexico) and are targeting different properties (Pacaso is going after ultra luxury homes). We also have slightly different approaches to splitting up the properties. Pacaso only sells 1/8 shares for all properties, where we also offer 1/4 or 1/10 shares for certain properties based on demand. On the properties side we partner with developers in addition to acquiring existing homes so we are able to sell interest in homes that are not yet built, where Pacaso is only going after existing homes.
  - dewski 5y ago
    Pacaso allows you to purchase more than 1/8 of a residence, you can purchase as many 1/8 shares as you like. So in theory you could easily purchase 1/4 of a residence. Pacaso is also purchasing homes that are not yet built, for instance they’ve purchased two homes in North Lake Tahoe that are actively being developed. I am a 1/8 shareholder of a property in North Lake Tahoe through Pacaso and I love the model. Best of luck to you.
    - rblack44 5y ago
      We're fans of what Pacaso is doing. If nothing else they are proving out the market for this type of ownership model. Congrats on the home, I grew up an hour from Tahoe and have always dreamed of buying a home up there!
      - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
        Where an hour from Tahoe? I lived in Gardnerville for a chunk of my childhood
Jorge1o1 5y ago
What inspired you guys to go with such a long time window? Most of the timeshares I know are like 2 weeks out of the year, but here it looks like you get (for most properties) almost 3 months!! Do people really take 3 month vacations? And even if you broke it up into what seems like a more manageable vacation (something like a month max) that’s still 3 vacations a year! Also, are the prices on your site the entire price of the house or the price of the share? Because if that’s the price of the whole house that is an insane commentary on how ridiculous US urban housing markets are!!!
- outside1234 5y ago
  It will be interesting to see what the remote first movement does to this. You could certainly see someone from Seattle spending 3 months in Mexico between Jan 1 and April 1 as a "working vacation"
  - rblack44 5y ago
    Definitely. We've seen a lot of interest from people looking at these homes as remote offices. We're optimistic this trend will continue as people take advantage of no longer being tied down to a certain geography
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  Digital nomads.
- rblack44 5y ago
  As a co-owner, you get access to the property based on your ownership %. So if you own 1/4 of the property, you can use it for 1/4 of the year. This ownership model provides flexibility to book stays throughout the year vs. being locked into 1-2 week windows annually. You don't have to take all 3 months at the same time. In fact our scheduling platform does not allow for stays this long to ensure all co-owners get equitable access to the property on the dates that are important to them. All prices are per share and based on the ownership %. Even still, the US housing market is bananas
outside1234 5y ago
How do you handle the situation where one owner refuses to make any investment in the property or doesn't pay for investments / costs?
- rblack44 5y ago
  This is a great question and we think one of the real advantages of our model. Because each co-owner owns an independent share of the home, they are protected if one of the other co-owners defaults on their payments. Ancana assumes responsibility in this case and if necessary we will take over the fraction and find another co-owner to purchase. The terms are laid out in the contract each co-owner signs
  - avs733 5y ago
    I don't believe this answers the question that was asked. They are asking about upkeep not default
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    And if that owner of an "independent share" decides after purchasing the share that they don't want to do business with you? What about if they can't make it out to Mexico that year, and they want to AirBnB the property for those weeks?
  - joshuaheard 5y ago
    I think he means maintenance costs. I own several rental properties, and I'm always coughing up large chunks of cash for water heaters, furnaces, AC units, rotting decks, and the like. What if an owner can't pay? Is there some sort of management reserve?
- rblack44 5y ago
  My bad, I think I misinterpreted your question! Each home has a reserve fund that is paid into by all co-owners. For standard fixes/improvements, Ancana will handle the work and pay for it out of the reserve fund. If a co-owner stops paying their monthly fees, they are in violation of the real estate contract and liable to forfeit their ownership in the home. Similar to someone defaulting on their mortgage.
dragonwriter 5y ago
As someone who has sat through several of them (and has bought a few), this is exactly, almost word-for-word (right down to the references to the complaints about the rest of the industry) the elevator pitch for every timeshare/vacation ownership scheme ever. > Unlike a timeshare, Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time. Like literally every timeshare/vacation ownership scheme I’ve seen other than in places where there are legal constraints (like Mexico’s limits on foreign ownership of certain real property) that get in the way involves deeded fractional ownership of specific real property. This is, again, false differentiation. The only thing somewhat novel here seems to ve the limitation to no less than eighth shares and the initial high-demand date guarantee (obviously the former being key to permitting the latter.) Another real point of differentiation is that (at least from your pitch, and people that have these features tend to highlight them in their basic pitch) is you don't seem to have a relationship with a network of exchange properties besides the deeded property, which is great for people who want to spend 6+ weeks a year, every year, in the same vacation spot, but less so otherwise.
- rblack44 5y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. One of our biggest challenges is in overcoming the gimmicks timeshares use to hook customers. My parents have had a few different timeshares, some of which were great, others complete scams. They've been incredibly successful in building huge businesses with these tactics. It really comes down to what you are purchasing, when you can use the property, and how you resell. With timeshares you are purchasing a block of time in a condo/resort with dozens or potentially hundreds of people. With Ancana, you are purchasing a share of an actual home with a small group of people. You own a piece of the home you are staying in, not a deed to a piece of a resort. Co-ownership is a concept that has been around for a while (a couple people in the comments have shared their experiences), but this has typically been limited to friends/family. We aim to make this accessible to everyone. With timeshares you get access to the property for fixed weeks. With Ancana you have ongoing access to the home. you can plan a vacation 8 months from now, or a last minute getaway this weekend. Timeshares do not offer this flexibility. Selling your timeshare is typically a nightmare. There are entire industries built around helping people get out of their timeshare contracts. Resorts have a vested interest in keeping you hooked, because the more buyers they get the more money they make. With Ancana, you are free to sell your share whenever and however you'd like. Since there are a limited number of co-owners, Ancana has no vested interest in making it hard to sell. We'll assist in helping you find a buyer if you'd like. We appreciate your feedback as a timeshare owner. It really is helpful for us to understand these different perspectives and to try and differentiate ourselves more from a standard timeshare
hifriends 5y ago
My family owns 1/4 of a vacation house through an LLC. Some issues that come to mind are: - Can an owner rent out their time? Who gets the rent money? How much is reserved for maintenance because renting will incur higher maintenance costs. - What happens if one owner can’t carry their weight on taxes or insurance? Our house is beach house so insurance is ridiculous — we rent it out during the summer to cover it and use the house during the rest of the year. - What if there are disagreements about how much to invest in the house for upgrades, maintenance, etc? - Is there a system through which owners can buy or trade time with other owners? - If you need to sell, how do you do that? - What happens if one owner passes away and their share is now owned by multiple people?
- rblack44 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing! The co-ownership model has been around for a while, but usually has been limited to friends & family. Really great feedback on some of the challenges you've faced. - Rentals: this is property dependent. Some of our homes are located in communities that have explicit rules regarding short term rentals. For homes not governed by these rules, the owners are free to vote on whether they'd like to allow renting the home when it is not used. We leave it up to the owners for the exact reason you highlighted above - renting can lead to higher maintenance costs and other issues. Proceeds from the rental go to the owner putting their time up for rent. The income is first used to defray an owner's monthly costs, and the rest is given directly to them. - Costs: Property costs are split amongst co-owners based on their ownership stake in the home with no markup. This tends to keep costs fairly low for each owner, but in the event an owner does not pay their portion they are in violation of the contract and subject to forfeiture of their share. Again, the fees for these homes in mexico are reasonable compared to the US and the costs are made clear and transparent to the buyer at the time of purchase. - investments: routine maintenance is handled by Ancana using the reserve fund. For other upgrades, the owners put it up to a vote. Depending on the size of investment, there are different vote thresholds that need to be met to move forward. - buying/trading: currently we make it easy for co-owners of the same property to trade scheduled visits. We do have plans on opening this up for all Ancana properties, but it is not something we have built out yet. Stay tuned! - selling: An owner is free to sell at any point after owning the home for 1 year. We are happy to assist in this process and list the fraction for sale to our network of qualified leads. But if an owner prefers to use their own agent or sell it through their own network, that is great too. Once a buyer is found, we take care of the vetting and legal process for transferring ownership. - Similar to other real estate, your ownership of an Ancana property can be passed on to beneficiaries. In this case the new owner(s) are still bound by the original investment trust and responsible for payments. We don't limit ownership in a fraction to a single person, so it is up to the new parties to decide how they want to handle ownership and using the property
kiddz 5y ago
I've looked into getting a place in Mexico and one thing is financing. The only option is 50% down -- which is a big bummer. Are you offering any financing that's more similar to a 15 yr or 30 yr mortgage?
- rblack44 5y ago
  Ya financing in Mexico is a big challenge. We do offer a financing option, but not for the entire amount unfortunately. We are actively looking to partner with banks and funds to be able to offer longer financing options. Stay tuned!
encoderer 5y ago
How are you going to be different than Pacaso which has a lot of Zillow execs?
nicklo 5y ago
Your testimonial section of "happy customers" are just the stock headshot photos from this wix template. It's probably safe to assume that the testimonials themselves are fake as well? I'd suggest removing this section entirely as it comes off as dishonest and misleading.
- aparsons 5y ago
  Very dishonest indeed. Does YC not do any due diligence anymore? They seem like they’ve become a quantity-over-quality investment firm now, casting the widest net possible based on the strength of their reputation.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Seriously. Too many SaaSes getting greenlit, seems like their board of investors realized that rent collection is far more profitable than making good products.
  - 101008 5y ago
    It is worse considering this startup got its own Launch HN thread, instead of going to those threads where many startups are shared in batches.
  - Semiapies 5y ago
    YC is free to invest in whatever they want, but maybe they can stop the free hype threads on HN if they're moving into timeshares and similar crap.
- rblack44 5y ago
  Thanks for the feedback, this is an embarrassing oversight and was not meant to mislead. The testimonials are from actual Ancana buyers but we did use the Wix stock photos. Andres and I are non-technical founders and tried our best to stand up this Wix site as quickly as possible while we worked to develop a new website. Getting customer photos is a challenge, but we should not have made it look like these were our actual buyers. I've removed them while we fix this and apologize for the misrepresentation. And it won't happen again.
lordleft 5y ago
Intriguing idea. What does "property management" entail? Does Ancana take on the costs of major property failures, like a pipe bursting?
- rblack44 5y ago
  Property management = upkeep of the property, cleaning the home after each visit, handling of any issues that arise with the home or between owners. Each property has a reserve fund that all co-owners pay into (somewhat similar to an HOA). For small improvements and repairs, we'll take care of the work and pay for it out of the reserve fund. For larger home improvements, co-owners can put the issue up for a vote and if necessary will contribute their pro rata share of the costs.
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smoldesu 5y ago
Woof, that was a lot of marketing speak to wade through to basically say "Timeshare-as-a-Service". I know you're 'different' (every startup is), but maybe honesty is really the best policy here. I feel like if you said this was a digital timeshare outright, it would feel less scam-like to the average person who doesn't know/care about this in the slightest. If you establish an honest basis of communication, then you can delineate all the ways you're different from the rest. Otherwise, this unfortunately reads kinda like a newspaper ad from a never-before-seen company.
- rblack44 5y ago
  One of our biggest challenges we face is in communicating how we are different from a timeshare. We focus on the 2 main differentiators we hear most from our customers: 1. ownership in actual real estate, and 2. the flexibility to schedule visits throughout the year. I think resale is another big point. One of the goals of posting on HN is to refine how we effectively communicate these differences, because the underlying model is very very different from a timeshare, regardless of how timeshares pitch themselves. Looking at the contract you sign with Ancana vs. a timeshare makes it pretty clear what you are actually buying. Appreciate the feedback, we'll continue to try and improve!
- sgustard 5y ago
  Personally, describing it as "own a quarter of a house" is a lot more meaningful to me than comparing it in any way to a timeshare. First of all, I'm not very familiar with timeshares except as a way to get roped into a two-hour sales pitch. Is Uber just a taxi-as-a-service? Well, yes and no. I've a big Pacaso fan and look forward to more innovation and transparency in this space.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    this is really great feedback, thanks!
awb 5y ago
Thanks for sharing. FYI, the meta tags on your English site (<title>, <meta name="description">, etc.) are still in Spanish. For SEO and usability, you might want to update those to English as well. Good luck with the venture!
- rblack44 5y ago
  Thank you for the feedback! We are in the process of launching a new site in the next week or 2 and will make sure this is fixed.
exdsq 5y ago
Someone's reinvented timeshares :) Reminds me of when I accidentally reinvented a recruitment company
- rblack44 5y ago
  I'd say we are streamlining the decades-old co-ownership model more than we are reinventing timeshares :)
  - exdsq 5y ago
    It's going to be a hard stigma to drop but best of luck to you and with the launch!
    - rblack44 5y ago
      Agree, this is our biggest hurdle on the buyer side. But thanks for the feedback and support!
slumdev 5y ago
If you ever relinquish majority ownership of this company in exchange for funding, it will eventually become "Timeshares But As An App". Your approach might be more principled than the way timeshare companies operate. But it also sounds like you're leaving a lot of money on the table, compared to the way timeshare companies operate. And investors won't let that continue if you can't convince them that your approach will somehow make more money than timeshare companies.
- rblack44 5y ago
  We believe the market for fractional ownership will soon be much larger than the timeshare market. People want to own a real asset and with the trend towards remote work, demand for homes in desirable places is only going to increase. Our differentiation from timeshares is one of our biggest assets, so while I agree some may push us more towards this model, it is not in line with our goals or vision for Ancana.
  - santaskeptic 5y ago
    Nice, I believe in Santa. Never let small minds tell you that your dream is a fantasy.
    - rblack44 5y ago
      Your name implies otherwise :) We started this company with a mission of making the vacation home market more accessible to people who are typically priced out. We're excited to see where Ancana goes, but pivoting into a timeshare company is not a direction we'll ever go.
michaelbuckbee 5y ago
Timeshares have a weird mix of goals: - Investment opportunity - Potential rental income - Personal enjoyment and as a result seem like they don't really achieve any of those cleanly and this just seems like it kinda swirls those three around in a slightly different manner. I was really hoping for something that was more of a larger scale investment business or something.
- anonymousiam 5y ago
  Don't forget there there's a whole industry associated with getting unhappy timeshare owners out of the deal. It's almost always a losing prospect, it's just a question of how much one has to pay to get out. https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/how-to-get-rid-of-a-timeshare https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/how-to-get-rid-of-a-tim...
TruthWillHurt 5y ago
YC shooting in all directions, not caring about brand at all it seems..
renewiltord 5y ago
A question to you for something you surely must have considered: why as vacation homes and not as investment properties? Is it a mortgage thing? I’d be happy to consider investing in a small bucket of houses, in some sort of tranche sense to diversify my portfolio but REITs are too large in general for me to understand the bucket and single homes are too illiquid.
- rblack44 5y ago
  We want people to use the home! Our goal in founding Ancana was to open up the vacation home market to more people. We see these homes as places to make lifelong memories with friends & family. A net benefit of our model is that your home is an investment - if you decide to sell and the property has increased in value, you capture that appreciation. There are other companies that make it possible to invest in a REIT-like vehicle, but that's not our focus :)
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Okay cool. Just a product vision thing, then.
tchen 5y ago
How does Ancana mitigate the low liquidity that is traditionally associated with fractional ownership models? How does an owner get out of a deal?
- rblack44 5y ago
  The fractional ownership model is taking off, look at Pacaso's success in the US. Just as there is strong demand for the primary sale, the secondary market will also likely see a a big uptick. An owner is free to sell anytime after owning the property for a year. You can list this like any other real estate holding. We can also assist in the sale if you'd like to tap into our growing network of interested buyers
mbesto 5y ago
I'm your target market as I'm currently investigating this with 3 other friends. Honestly, I wouldn't trust a commoditized service for this. It requires honest discussions with friends, a trusted lawyer and a trusted accountant. I want to personally know the parties I'm dealing with because often times disputes can be handled with gentlemen agreements or through those trusted contacts.
- benatkin 5y ago
  Also using an automatic scheduling system like the one described to set up the dates when there's only a handful of fractional owners doesn't make sense to me either. Information about individual preferences should be gathered.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    This is great feedback, perhaps our explanation wasn't clear. The scheduling system isn't automatic, each owner has the flexibility to book stays whenever they'd like (the booking window is 2 days to 1 year out). What we try to do is make sure that each co-owner gets access to the property on the dates that matter most to them. To accomplish this we give each owner the ability to select their priority dates before the general booking window opens
    - deleted 5y ago
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- rblack44 5y ago
  Friends and family have been entering into these type of agreements for years. If you have a group that agrees on the same property we think that's awesome. Our solution isn't for everyone. But we are trying to make this co-ownership opportunity available to everyone. Especially those who want to invest in a property but don't have a group to go in with them. In terms of disputes, we agree that most can be handled through simple communication. Our platform allows for this. Many of our owners like the idea of having Ancana there to act as a go-between for issues that do arise and to set rules that everyone can agree to. Good luck with your home buying adventure! What areas are you looking at?
jsdwarf 5y ago
Oh no, another company that creates ghost houses full of vacation Appartments that nobody uses because they are "investments". Has it come to your mind that an increasing number of European municipalities issues punitive taxes if the Appartment stays empty for n days per year?
- rblack44 5y ago
  We actually think we'll have the opposite effect! Single-owner vacation homes are used less than 60 days a year and often sit vacant. With Ancana each owner purchases the number of shares that corresponds to how much they'll use the home. With multiple co-owners the home will be in use far more frequently
thenayr 5y ago
One of the listings is literally just a bunch of concept art illustrations, what am I even looking at https://en.ancana.co/properties/helechos https://en.ancana.co/properties/helechos
lastofthemojito 5y ago
Just a small note: When I visit the URL provided (https://en.ancana.co/ https://en.ancana.co/) the website content is in English as expected, but the title of the page is in Spanish ("La mejor manera de comprar tu casa de vacaciones").
- rblack44 5y ago
  Hmmm, is the dropdown in the upper right showing "EN"? We realize there is some bugginess on the site, we are non-technical founders haha. We have a new site launching in a week or 2 that will resolve all of these little issues. Thanks for taking a look!
mrb 5y ago
I wonder if there is a way to game your system. For example instead of buying a 1/4 fraction, someone could set up two LLCs each owning two 1/8 shares. With the way you rotate the priority order from year to year, the person would get "first choice" two times within one cycle. Getting first choice two times for 1/8 each is superior to first choice one time for 1/4. For example the weeks around very popular vacation dates (Christmas) would get picked out twice each cycle by the same person. That aside, I wonder if this model would open up some interesting rental opportunities: instead of occupying the property, co-owners could rent out their blocks of time, and get a return on their investment in the fully-managed property. Unrelated: you say: «Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time» But I wouldn't emphasize this too much. After all, on the surface co-owners get the same utility as a time share: they have to reserve their "block of time".
- smabie 5y ago
  Nice arb!
- rblack44 5y ago
  Love the creativity! Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately from your perspective), Ancana creates the LLC for each home so people can't game the system. We do allow people to buy more than 1 share of any home, so that would get you access to additional dates. In terms of rentals, we 100% agree. Some of our rentals are in communities that have their own short-term rental rules. But in other properties we let the co-owners decide if they'd like to allow rental of the property when it's not in use. In this case the rental income could defray the monthly costs or go straight to the owners. There is a sublte but important difference between how you can book time in an Ancana home vs. a timeshare. With Ancana you have the flexibility to book stays throughout the year, anywhere from 2 days to 1 year in advance. With timeshares you are typically locked into a block of time and oftentimes the same dates year after year. But this is great feedback on how we can further differentiate ourselves, thanks!
mimifriends 5y ago
I would suggest looking closely at making shared ownership easier for friends and family, rather than a complex partnership of strangers. We know of people that would buy a vacation home together, but the purchase, management, maintenance and use scheduling is complicated enough to shelve the idea.
- rblack44 5y ago
  Really love this idea. We started Ancana to make this opportunity available to everyone, even if they didn't have a group of people they knew who wanted to co-own a home. But there is absolutely room to tailor a product for people who already have a group and just don't want to deal with the overhead of setting up the fractional model and ongoing maintenance. We're going to look into this, thank you for the feedback!
- liketochill 5y ago
  Having an agreement which sets up the terms of the dissolution of the enterprise up front will help save relationships. I have a buy sell where the partner that wants to exit names their price and the other partner decides if they want to buy the other share at that price or sell their own. And then the remaining party is free to find a new partner or put it on the market.
rbobby 5y ago
> Priority order is determined by the owner's purchase date (1st buyer gets 1st choice, 2nd buyer gets 2nd choice, etc), with the order rotating each year (2nd buyer gets 1st selection in year 2, 3rd buyer gets 1st selection in year 3, etc.). That's pretty awful. Do early buyers pay a premium? Do late buyers get a discount? Why not do a lottery? Or an actual cash based auction (proceeds go to maintenance fees... which is good for everyone)?
- rblack44 5y ago
  Curious why you think this is awful. The order rotates each year so for a home sold in 1/4 fractions, every owner would get 1st choice once in a 4 year period. Then it starts over again. All buyers pay the same rate, the priority selection rewards people who buy first, it's a benefit for moving fast. We are contemplating a snake draft system if we decide to allow people to schedule more than 1 priority date each year. So if you go last on your 1st choice, you'd get 1st pick on your 2nd choice. Does that seem more fair from your perspective? A lottery is an interesting concept, but it's only really equitable over a long time horizon. What if I got a bad luck fo the draw 3 years in a row? Scheduling is hard, and we are constantly looking for ways to improve so we really appreciate the feedback!
  - ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
    Is there any pre-draft conversation between owners or is it all an arms-length thing where each owner just starts seeing dates disappear on the calendar in Ancana? Seems like with a good group of co-owners who understand each other’s intentions, they might plan around each other somewhat for mutually agreeable outcomes. E.g. if Owner 1 just wants a lot of time in the place in shoulder seasons for mild weather but Owner 2 specifically wants certain fall dates for an anniversary, the first owner could (inadvertently) screw the second owner if that wasn’t communicated.
  - rbobby 5y ago
    Last buyer has to wait 3 years to get first pick. Yuck. A lottery to set the initial order is fair to everyone. If you want to find out what the actual cash value of picking first, second or third is then do an auction.
rglullis 5y ago
Make it for digital nomads who are willing to pay a monthly fee to build equity on the properties. Offer not just vacation homes but homes that are big enough to have 6-10 people co-working and co-living. Instead of having 4 families splitting a house for 3 months, every participant has the right to live in the house or to rent it out. Create a market for them so that they can trade their shares. Make it easy for people to sell their shares for co-owners. Make it international, focusing on places that are reasonably developed and with good climate: southern Europe and the Caribbean. For the past 5 years I've been unsuccessfully trying to convince my very risk-averse wife (civil engineer) that digital nomads are going to be an increasingly powerful market. If you are willing to do any of that, let me know so that I can quit my job and apply to work with you. :) If not, please let me know what problems you see with it. I've been thinking about this for quite a while and the pandemic made it even more appealing to me.
- rblack44 5y ago
  Love some of these ideas! We are getting a lot of interest from digital nomads looking at this not just as an investment in a vacation home, but as a remote office for a few months a year. We are looking at how we can better serve that market, would love to chat as it seems like you've been thinking about this for a bit. Shoot me an email (ryan@ancana.co). Many of the homes are big enough spaces to use for coworking, but not always ideally furnished as such. It could be interesting to tailor some homes for this exact use case. Interesting. The rental rules depend on the property. Some of our homes are in communities with rules governing short term rentals. For the others, we leave it up to the owners to decide as a group whether to allow renting the home when not in use. We definitely see an opportunity for people to trade time in different homes. With the affordability of many of our properties, we think some people will buy shares in a few homes and bounce around. Anyway, would love to get in touch and pick your brain
- ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
  I wonder if something like this could help with residency through investment visas, etc. I mean, I know nomads are nomadic by definition so maybe some wouldn’t care much about long-term residency but I’d imagine a lot of American digital nomads would be happy if they could get a foot in the door for EU residency for example.
quickthrowman 5y ago
How do you plan to handle maintenance, especially maintenance that can be deferred until it suddenly cannot, like foundation/slab issues, sewer line/septic replacement, site drainage problems, roof replacement, etc. The interests of the owners may not be aligned.
coverband 5y ago
Are any of these properties available for U.S. buyers, or only to those that live in Mexico?
- rblack44 5y ago
  Yes! We have started focusing on areas that appeal the most to US buyers (Cabo, Tulum, Puerto Vallarta, etc). Most of our marketing to date has been geared towards the Mexico market but we are starting to reach out to US buyers as well!
jdkee 5y ago
The documentary "The Queen of Versailles" documents the wife of a time-share mogul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQW9Ks0GZUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQW9Ks0GZUQ
javierneumann 5y ago
excelent!
ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
So, no presumption against the founders here, but what happens if Ancana folds in a few years? Each property’s trust still exists and everyone still owns their shares but they need to find a new manager for the trust? I have pretty much no knowledge of that industry - are there other companies ready to take over management of the property and allocation of dates in a situation like that?
- dewski 5y ago
  That’s exactly how it works with Pacaso. I presume it’s the same for Ancana.
- rblack44 5y ago
  Yes, the trust remains in place and the legal rights of all the owners are unaffected. The co-owners can simply find another property management company. Even in the event Ancana is still in business but the co-owners are unhappy with our service for whatever reason, they can vote to drop Ancana and hire another company of their choosing
mrfusion 5y ago
I think this is a great idea. I never understood why this isn’t a thing.
slackstation 5y ago
You property descriptions are in Spanish on the English version of the site. https://en.ancana.co/properties/casa-tortuga https://en.ancana.co/properties/casa-tortuga
digitcatphd 5y ago
I thought this was owning shares in a managed Airbnb and you charged management fees. I agree now with the comments that this is essentially just timeshare in a different suit.
Anahi2016 5y ago
I think we should give these guys a chance. Maybe their communication needs a little work but to the people saying it's time shares in a different coat, we just don't know that for sure. Although I'm not saying your concerns are unfounded either. Their model is unique and we don't know exactly how it's going to pan out. Personally, I think it might be promising depending on how it's done.
mypetgoat 5y ago
You would probably make more money putting the property on Airb’n’b
Slast101 5y ago
1) Some people here commenting that you should do this with family/friends. Certainly can work but people change with time. Much better to have a formal structure that will work with strangers. This will inevitably happen in case of changed circumstances of owner or family of an owner (death being the worst case. Unfortunately, most who use \a formal structure get it written by a lawyer who will not anticipate potential problems. 2) This sort of scheme should not be looked on as a financial instrument. Should only be seen as a discretionary/leisure purchase that must have use/enjoyment as its #1 priority. Having said that, we just sold the Lake Tahoe property of our first syndicate of this type after 40 years, and showed a decent rate of return after ALL costs were considered, and great vacations all that time. We had multiple changes of shareholder during the that time - almost all by word of mouth, as well as some founders in at the close. Key was getting the right agreement before getting too enthusiastic about a specific property.

83 points by rblack44 5y ago

thiscatis 5y ago

If it looks like a timeshare and smells like a timeshare, it’s a timeshare. If there’s no secondary free market to sell these “fractional ownerships” it’s just forced rent I can’t resell.

dmos62 5y ago
You should have read the post before commenting. > Unlike a timeshare, Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time. If you decide you want to sell your share, you are free to do so at any time, either through us or on the open market, and capture any appreciation the property has accrued.
- thiscatis 5y ago
  “Open market” yeah right
- Dobbs 5y ago
  and as others have pointed out many timeshares say this exact same thing.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  That doesn't mean there is someone willing to buy it on the other end.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    demand for this model of ownership is exploding. From a buyer's perspective there is no functional difference between the primary and secondary market. It is certainly more liquid than a timeshare and in most cases easier to sell than an entire home given the lower upfront and maintenance costs
- smabie 5y ago
  What open market? There's no liquidity there.
rblack44 5y ago
One way to look at this is unlike a timeshare, Ancana has no ownership interest in the property. Resorts own the property and sell you access to that property. At the point all of the shares are sold, we become property managers. You don't have to sell the share back to us like you do with timeshares - in fact, we don't purchase shares back. You are free to list your fraction with an agent of your choosing or sell to your own network at whatever price you desire. Given that we have a large list of qualified leads, we are happy to list your fraction for sale, but that is not a requirement. Curious why you think there is no secondary market for these homes. The primary market is exploding for this model of ownership and given the limited inventory of vacation homes on the market, we think the secondary market is also going to be very large

ghostly_s 5y ago

Why are you describing timeshares as if it's some sort of innovation?

rblack44 5y ago
I understand the confusion, but we are definitely not a timeshare. With Ancana you own real property, not a block of time. You have the flexibility to book stays throughout the year vs. annual bookings with timeshares. And if you ever want to sell your interest in an Ancana home, you can do so just like a normal home. If the property has increased in value, you capture that appreciation. With timeshares you are forced to sell your "time" back to the resort at highly discounted rates, not at market value.
dragonwriter 5y ago
That's how you sell timeshares, by describing your particular implementation as innovation, often by explicit misrepresentation of the existing ones or implicit misrepresentation of yours (describing others maintenance/management fees as expensive and/or hidden while you have and do not highlight your own fees of the same kind being a common example of the latter.)
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  I think it's unfair to critique by pattern matching. "What's wrong with this model" is what should be focused on.
- rblack44 5y ago
  My parents have been timeshare owners for years so I'm very familiar with the sales tactics resorts use. Regardless of how they spin it, all you really own is a block of time. With Ancana your purchase is a deeded right to the property. You are an actual home owner. Where the difference becomes clear is when you can use the property (fixed weeks vs. on-demand) and what happens when you want to sell the property. Resorts force you to sell your time back to them and they dictate the prices. With an Ancana home, we will help find a buyer from our network of qualified leads, or you are free to sell through an agent of your choosing or on your own. The market dictates what the property sells for, not Ancana. We retain no ownership stake in the property once all of the fractions are sold. As for fees, we simply split the ongoing property costs amongst the co-owners with no markup. We do charge an annual management fee for administering and maintaining the property, but this is fixed and transparent.

LivelyTortoise 5y ago

Quick UI issue I noticed - on the English version of the site, some of the text is still in Spanish. For example the banners on the top-right of the photos at https://en.ancana.co/properties https://en.ancana.co/properties say '30% vendido' etc, and the property description on https://en.ancana.co/properties/seis-encantos https://en.ancana.co/properties/seis-encantos is in Spanish. (Also, the column title 'Completion Date' is repeated twice in the property details table).

rblack44 5y ago
Thanks for taking a peek! As two non-technical founders, we ran into some limitations using Wix. Fortunately, we have a new site launching in a week or so that we are pretty excited about that fixes the bugginess of the current site. Stay tuned!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

Can you help me understand the key difference here between this and Pacaso (I think from one of the Zillow founders)? https://www.pacaso.com/ https://www.pacaso.com/

rblack44 5y ago
Very similar model. We are currently operating in different markets (US vs. Mexico) and are targeting different properties (Pacaso is going after ultra luxury homes). We also have slightly different approaches to splitting up the properties. Pacaso only sells 1/8 shares for all properties, where we also offer 1/4 or 1/10 shares for certain properties based on demand. On the properties side we partner with developers in addition to acquiring existing homes so we are able to sell interest in homes that are not yet built, where Pacaso is only going after existing homes.
- dewski 5y ago
  Pacaso allows you to purchase more than 1/8 of a residence, you can purchase as many 1/8 shares as you like. So in theory you could easily purchase 1/4 of a residence. Pacaso is also purchasing homes that are not yet built, for instance they’ve purchased two homes in North Lake Tahoe that are actively being developed. I am a 1/8 shareholder of a property in North Lake Tahoe through Pacaso and I love the model. Best of luck to you.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    We're fans of what Pacaso is doing. If nothing else they are proving out the market for this type of ownership model. Congrats on the home, I grew up an hour from Tahoe and have always dreamed of buying a home up there!
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      Where an hour from Tahoe? I lived in Gardnerville for a chunk of my childhood

Jorge1o1 5y ago

What inspired you guys to go with such a long time window? Most of the timeshares I know are like 2 weeks out of the year, but here it looks like you get (for most properties) almost 3 months!! Do people really take 3 month vacations? And even if you broke it up into what seems like a more manageable vacation (something like a month max) that’s still 3 vacations a year! Also, are the prices on your site the entire price of the house or the price of the share? Because if that’s the price of the whole house that is an insane commentary on how ridiculous US urban housing markets are!!!

outside1234 5y ago
It will be interesting to see what the remote first movement does to this. You could certainly see someone from Seattle spending 3 months in Mexico between Jan 1 and April 1 as a "working vacation"
- rblack44 5y ago
  Definitely. We've seen a lot of interest from people looking at these homes as remote offices. We're optimistic this trend will continue as people take advantage of no longer being tied down to a certain geography
devoutsalsa 5y ago
Digital nomads.
rblack44 5y ago
As a co-owner, you get access to the property based on your ownership %. So if you own 1/4 of the property, you can use it for 1/4 of the year. This ownership model provides flexibility to book stays throughout the year vs. being locked into 1-2 week windows annually. You don't have to take all 3 months at the same time. In fact our scheduling platform does not allow for stays this long to ensure all co-owners get equitable access to the property on the dates that are important to them. All prices are per share and based on the ownership %. Even still, the US housing market is bananas

outside1234 5y ago

How do you handle the situation where one owner refuses to make any investment in the property or doesn't pay for investments / costs?

rblack44 5y ago
This is a great question and we think one of the real advantages of our model. Because each co-owner owns an independent share of the home, they are protected if one of the other co-owners defaults on their payments. Ancana assumes responsibility in this case and if necessary we will take over the fraction and find another co-owner to purchase. The terms are laid out in the contract each co-owner signs
- avs733 5y ago
  I don't believe this answers the question that was asked. They are asking about upkeep not default
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  And if that owner of an "independent share" decides after purchasing the share that they don't want to do business with you? What about if they can't make it out to Mexico that year, and they want to AirBnB the property for those weeks?
- joshuaheard 5y ago
  I think he means maintenance costs. I own several rental properties, and I'm always coughing up large chunks of cash for water heaters, furnaces, AC units, rotting decks, and the like. What if an owner can't pay? Is there some sort of management reserve?
rblack44 5y ago
My bad, I think I misinterpreted your question! Each home has a reserve fund that is paid into by all co-owners. For standard fixes/improvements, Ancana will handle the work and pay for it out of the reserve fund. If a co-owner stops paying their monthly fees, they are in violation of the real estate contract and liable to forfeit their ownership in the home. Similar to someone defaulting on their mortgage.

dragonwriter 5y ago

As someone who has sat through several of them (and has bought a few), this is exactly, almost word-for-word (right down to the references to the complaints about the rest of the industry) the elevator pitch for every timeshare/vacation ownership scheme ever. > Unlike a timeshare, Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time. Like literally every timeshare/vacation ownership scheme I’ve seen other than in places where there are legal constraints (like Mexico’s limits on foreign ownership of certain real property) that get in the way involves deeded fractional ownership of specific real property. This is, again, false differentiation. The only thing somewhat novel here seems to ve the limitation to no less than eighth shares and the initial high-demand date guarantee (obviously the former being key to permitting the latter.) Another real point of differentiation is that (at least from your pitch, and people that have these features tend to highlight them in their basic pitch) is you don't seem to have a relationship with a network of exchange properties besides the deeded property, which is great for people who want to spend 6+ weeks a year, every year, in the same vacation spot, but less so otherwise.

rblack44 5y ago
Thanks for the feedback. One of our biggest challenges is in overcoming the gimmicks timeshares use to hook customers. My parents have had a few different timeshares, some of which were great, others complete scams. They've been incredibly successful in building huge businesses with these tactics. It really comes down to what you are purchasing, when you can use the property, and how you resell. With timeshares you are purchasing a block of time in a condo/resort with dozens or potentially hundreds of people. With Ancana, you are purchasing a share of an actual home with a small group of people. You own a piece of the home you are staying in, not a deed to a piece of a resort. Co-ownership is a concept that has been around for a while (a couple people in the comments have shared their experiences), but this has typically been limited to friends/family. We aim to make this accessible to everyone. With timeshares you get access to the property for fixed weeks. With Ancana you have ongoing access to the home. you can plan a vacation 8 months from now, or a last minute getaway this weekend. Timeshares do not offer this flexibility. Selling your timeshare is typically a nightmare. There are entire industries built around helping people get out of their timeshare contracts. Resorts have a vested interest in keeping you hooked, because the more buyers they get the more money they make. With Ancana, you are free to sell your share whenever and however you'd like. Since there are a limited number of co-owners, Ancana has no vested interest in making it hard to sell. We'll assist in helping you find a buyer if you'd like. We appreciate your feedback as a timeshare owner. It really is helpful for us to understand these different perspectives and to try and differentiate ourselves more from a standard timeshare

hifriends 5y ago

My family owns 1/4 of a vacation house through an LLC. Some issues that come to mind are: - Can an owner rent out their time? Who gets the rent money? How much is reserved for maintenance because renting will incur higher maintenance costs. - What happens if one owner can’t carry their weight on taxes or insurance? Our house is beach house so insurance is ridiculous — we rent it out during the summer to cover it and use the house during the rest of the year. - What if there are disagreements about how much to invest in the house for upgrades, maintenance, etc? - Is there a system through which owners can buy or trade time with other owners? - If you need to sell, how do you do that? - What happens if one owner passes away and their share is now owned by multiple people?

rblack44 5y ago
Thanks for sharing! The co-ownership model has been around for a while, but usually has been limited to friends & family. Really great feedback on some of the challenges you've faced. - Rentals: this is property dependent. Some of our homes are located in communities that have explicit rules regarding short term rentals. For homes not governed by these rules, the owners are free to vote on whether they'd like to allow renting the home when it is not used. We leave it up to the owners for the exact reason you highlighted above - renting can lead to higher maintenance costs and other issues. Proceeds from the rental go to the owner putting their time up for rent. The income is first used to defray an owner's monthly costs, and the rest is given directly to them. - Costs: Property costs are split amongst co-owners based on their ownership stake in the home with no markup. This tends to keep costs fairly low for each owner, but in the event an owner does not pay their portion they are in violation of the contract and subject to forfeiture of their share. Again, the fees for these homes in mexico are reasonable compared to the US and the costs are made clear and transparent to the buyer at the time of purchase. - investments: routine maintenance is handled by Ancana using the reserve fund. For other upgrades, the owners put it up to a vote. Depending on the size of investment, there are different vote thresholds that need to be met to move forward. - buying/trading: currently we make it easy for co-owners of the same property to trade scheduled visits. We do have plans on opening this up for all Ancana properties, but it is not something we have built out yet. Stay tuned! - selling: An owner is free to sell at any point after owning the home for 1 year. We are happy to assist in this process and list the fraction for sale to our network of qualified leads. But if an owner prefers to use their own agent or sell it through their own network, that is great too. Once a buyer is found, we take care of the vetting and legal process for transferring ownership. - Similar to other real estate, your ownership of an Ancana property can be passed on to beneficiaries. In this case the new owner(s) are still bound by the original investment trust and responsible for payments. We don't limit ownership in a fraction to a single person, so it is up to the new parties to decide how they want to handle ownership and using the property

kiddz 5y ago

I've looked into getting a place in Mexico and one thing is financing. The only option is 50% down -- which is a big bummer. Are you offering any financing that's more similar to a 15 yr or 30 yr mortgage?

rblack44 5y ago
Ya financing in Mexico is a big challenge. We do offer a financing option, but not for the entire amount unfortunately. We are actively looking to partner with banks and funds to be able to offer longer financing options. Stay tuned!

encoderer 5y ago

How are you going to be different than Pacaso which has a lot of Zillow execs?

nicklo 5y ago

Your testimonial section of "happy customers" are just the stock headshot photos from this wix template. It's probably safe to assume that the testimonials themselves are fake as well? I'd suggest removing this section entirely as it comes off as dishonest and misleading.

aparsons 5y ago
Very dishonest indeed. Does YC not do any due diligence anymore? They seem like they’ve become a quantity-over-quality investment firm now, casting the widest net possible based on the strength of their reputation.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Seriously. Too many SaaSes getting greenlit, seems like their board of investors realized that rent collection is far more profitable than making good products.
- 101008 5y ago
  It is worse considering this startup got its own Launch HN thread, instead of going to those threads where many startups are shared in batches.
- Semiapies 5y ago
  YC is free to invest in whatever they want, but maybe they can stop the free hype threads on HN if they're moving into timeshares and similar crap.
rblack44 5y ago
Thanks for the feedback, this is an embarrassing oversight and was not meant to mislead. The testimonials are from actual Ancana buyers but we did use the Wix stock photos. Andres and I are non-technical founders and tried our best to stand up this Wix site as quickly as possible while we worked to develop a new website. Getting customer photos is a challenge, but we should not have made it look like these were our actual buyers. I've removed them while we fix this and apologize for the misrepresentation. And it won't happen again.

lordleft 5y ago

Intriguing idea. What does "property management" entail? Does Ancana take on the costs of major property failures, like a pipe bursting?

rblack44 5y ago
Property management = upkeep of the property, cleaning the home after each visit, handling of any issues that arise with the home or between owners. Each property has a reserve fund that all co-owners pay into (somewhat similar to an HOA). For small improvements and repairs, we'll take care of the work and pay for it out of the reserve fund. For larger home improvements, co-owners can put the issue up for a vote and if necessary will contribute their pro rata share of the costs.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

smoldesu 5y ago

Woof, that was a lot of marketing speak to wade through to basically say "Timeshare-as-a-Service". I know you're 'different' (every startup is), but maybe honesty is really the best policy here. I feel like if you said this was a digital timeshare outright, it would feel less scam-like to the average person who doesn't know/care about this in the slightest. If you establish an honest basis of communication, then you can delineate all the ways you're different from the rest. Otherwise, this unfortunately reads kinda like a newspaper ad from a never-before-seen company.

rblack44 5y ago
One of our biggest challenges we face is in communicating how we are different from a timeshare. We focus on the 2 main differentiators we hear most from our customers: 1. ownership in actual real estate, and 2. the flexibility to schedule visits throughout the year. I think resale is another big point. One of the goals of posting on HN is to refine how we effectively communicate these differences, because the underlying model is very very different from a timeshare, regardless of how timeshares pitch themselves. Looking at the contract you sign with Ancana vs. a timeshare makes it pretty clear what you are actually buying. Appreciate the feedback, we'll continue to try and improve!
sgustard 5y ago
Personally, describing it as "own a quarter of a house" is a lot more meaningful to me than comparing it in any way to a timeshare. First of all, I'm not very familiar with timeshares except as a way to get roped into a two-hour sales pitch. Is Uber just a taxi-as-a-service? Well, yes and no. I've a big Pacaso fan and look forward to more innovation and transparency in this space.
- rblack44 5y ago
  this is really great feedback, thanks!

awb 5y ago

Thanks for sharing. FYI, the meta tags on your English site (<title>, <meta name="description">, etc.) are still in Spanish. For SEO and usability, you might want to update those to English as well. Good luck with the venture!

rblack44 5y ago
Thank you for the feedback! We are in the process of launching a new site in the next week or 2 and will make sure this is fixed.

exdsq 5y ago

Someone's reinvented timeshares :) Reminds me of when I accidentally reinvented a recruitment company

rblack44 5y ago
I'd say we are streamlining the decades-old co-ownership model more than we are reinventing timeshares :)
- exdsq 5y ago
  It's going to be a hard stigma to drop but best of luck to you and with the launch!
  - rblack44 5y ago
    Agree, this is our biggest hurdle on the buyer side. But thanks for the feedback and support!

slumdev 5y ago

If you ever relinquish majority ownership of this company in exchange for funding, it will eventually become "Timeshares But As An App". Your approach might be more principled than the way timeshare companies operate. But it also sounds like you're leaving a lot of money on the table, compared to the way timeshare companies operate. And investors won't let that continue if you can't convince them that your approach will somehow make more money than timeshare companies.

rblack44 5y ago
We believe the market for fractional ownership will soon be much larger than the timeshare market. People want to own a real asset and with the trend towards remote work, demand for homes in desirable places is only going to increase. Our differentiation from timeshares is one of our biggest assets, so while I agree some may push us more towards this model, it is not in line with our goals or vision for Ancana.
- santaskeptic 5y ago
  Nice, I believe in Santa. Never let small minds tell you that your dream is a fantasy.
  - rblack44 5y ago
    Your name implies otherwise :) We started this company with a mission of making the vacation home market more accessible to people who are typically priced out. We're excited to see where Ancana goes, but pivoting into a timeshare company is not a direction we'll ever go.

michaelbuckbee 5y ago

Timeshares have a weird mix of goals: - Investment opportunity - Potential rental income - Personal enjoyment and as a result seem like they don't really achieve any of those cleanly and this just seems like it kinda swirls those three around in a slightly different manner. I was really hoping for something that was more of a larger scale investment business or something.

anonymousiam 5y ago
Don't forget there there's a whole industry associated with getting unhappy timeshare owners out of the deal. It's almost always a losing prospect, it's just a question of how much one has to pay to get out. https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/how-to-get-rid-of-a-timeshare https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/how-to-get-rid-of-a-tim...

TruthWillHurt 5y ago

YC shooting in all directions, not caring about brand at all it seems..

renewiltord 5y ago

A question to you for something you surely must have considered: why as vacation homes and not as investment properties? Is it a mortgage thing? I’d be happy to consider investing in a small bucket of houses, in some sort of tranche sense to diversify my portfolio but REITs are too large in general for me to understand the bucket and single homes are too illiquid.

rblack44 5y ago
We want people to use the home! Our goal in founding Ancana was to open up the vacation home market to more people. We see these homes as places to make lifelong memories with friends & family. A net benefit of our model is that your home is an investment - if you decide to sell and the property has increased in value, you capture that appreciation. There are other companies that make it possible to invest in a REIT-like vehicle, but that's not our focus :)
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Okay cool. Just a product vision thing, then.

tchen 5y ago

How does Ancana mitigate the low liquidity that is traditionally associated with fractional ownership models? How does an owner get out of a deal?

rblack44 5y ago
The fractional ownership model is taking off, look at Pacaso's success in the US. Just as there is strong demand for the primary sale, the secondary market will also likely see a a big uptick. An owner is free to sell anytime after owning the property for a year. You can list this like any other real estate holding. We can also assist in the sale if you'd like to tap into our growing network of interested buyers

mbesto 5y ago

I'm your target market as I'm currently investigating this with 3 other friends. Honestly, I wouldn't trust a commoditized service for this. It requires honest discussions with friends, a trusted lawyer and a trusted accountant. I want to personally know the parties I'm dealing with because often times disputes can be handled with gentlemen agreements or through those trusted contacts.

benatkin 5y ago
Also using an automatic scheduling system like the one described to set up the dates when there's only a handful of fractional owners doesn't make sense to me either. Information about individual preferences should be gathered.
- rblack44 5y ago
  This is great feedback, perhaps our explanation wasn't clear. The scheduling system isn't automatic, each owner has the flexibility to book stays whenever they'd like (the booking window is 2 days to 1 year out). What we try to do is make sure that each co-owner gets access to the property on the dates that matter most to them. To accomplish this we give each owner the ability to select their priority dates before the general booking window opens
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rblack44 5y ago
Friends and family have been entering into these type of agreements for years. If you have a group that agrees on the same property we think that's awesome. Our solution isn't for everyone. But we are trying to make this co-ownership opportunity available to everyone. Especially those who want to invest in a property but don't have a group to go in with them. In terms of disputes, we agree that most can be handled through simple communication. Our platform allows for this. Many of our owners like the idea of having Ancana there to act as a go-between for issues that do arise and to set rules that everyone can agree to. Good luck with your home buying adventure! What areas are you looking at?

jsdwarf 5y ago

Oh no, another company that creates ghost houses full of vacation Appartments that nobody uses because they are "investments". Has it come to your mind that an increasing number of European municipalities issues punitive taxes if the Appartment stays empty for n days per year?

rblack44 5y ago
We actually think we'll have the opposite effect! Single-owner vacation homes are used less than 60 days a year and often sit vacant. With Ancana each owner purchases the number of shares that corresponds to how much they'll use the home. With multiple co-owners the home will be in use far more frequently

thenayr 5y ago

One of the listings is literally just a bunch of concept art illustrations, what am I even looking at https://en.ancana.co/properties/helechos https://en.ancana.co/properties/helechos

lastofthemojito 5y ago

Just a small note: When I visit the URL provided (https://en.ancana.co/ https://en.ancana.co/) the website content is in English as expected, but the title of the page is in Spanish ("La mejor manera de comprar tu casa de vacaciones").

rblack44 5y ago
Hmmm, is the dropdown in the upper right showing "EN"? We realize there is some bugginess on the site, we are non-technical founders haha. We have a new site launching in a week or 2 that will resolve all of these little issues. Thanks for taking a look!

mrb 5y ago

I wonder if there is a way to game your system. For example instead of buying a 1/4 fraction, someone could set up two LLCs each owning two 1/8 shares. With the way you rotate the priority order from year to year, the person would get "first choice" two times within one cycle. Getting first choice two times for 1/8 each is superior to first choice one time for 1/4. For example the weeks around very popular vacation dates (Christmas) would get picked out twice each cycle by the same person. That aside, I wonder if this model would open up some interesting rental opportunities: instead of occupying the property, co-owners could rent out their blocks of time, and get a return on their investment in the fully-managed property. Unrelated: you say: «Ancana owners own a real asset (the property) versus a block of time» But I wouldn't emphasize this too much. After all, on the surface co-owners get the same utility as a time share: they have to reserve their "block of time".

smabie 5y ago
Nice arb!
rblack44 5y ago
Love the creativity! Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately from your perspective), Ancana creates the LLC for each home so people can't game the system. We do allow people to buy more than 1 share of any home, so that would get you access to additional dates. In terms of rentals, we 100% agree. Some of our rentals are in communities that have their own short-term rental rules. But in other properties we let the co-owners decide if they'd like to allow rental of the property when it's not in use. In this case the rental income could defray the monthly costs or go straight to the owners. There is a sublte but important difference between how you can book time in an Ancana home vs. a timeshare. With Ancana you have the flexibility to book stays throughout the year, anywhere from 2 days to 1 year in advance. With timeshares you are typically locked into a block of time and oftentimes the same dates year after year. But this is great feedback on how we can further differentiate ourselves, thanks!

mimifriends 5y ago

I would suggest looking closely at making shared ownership easier for friends and family, rather than a complex partnership of strangers. We know of people that would buy a vacation home together, but the purchase, management, maintenance and use scheduling is complicated enough to shelve the idea.

rblack44 5y ago
Really love this idea. We started Ancana to make this opportunity available to everyone, even if they didn't have a group of people they knew who wanted to co-own a home. But there is absolutely room to tailor a product for people who already have a group and just don't want to deal with the overhead of setting up the fractional model and ongoing maintenance. We're going to look into this, thank you for the feedback!
liketochill 5y ago
Having an agreement which sets up the terms of the dissolution of the enterprise up front will help save relationships. I have a buy sell where the partner that wants to exit names their price and the other partner decides if they want to buy the other share at that price or sell their own. And then the remaining party is free to find a new partner or put it on the market.

rbobby 5y ago

> Priority order is determined by the owner's purchase date (1st buyer gets 1st choice, 2nd buyer gets 2nd choice, etc), with the order rotating each year (2nd buyer gets 1st selection in year 2, 3rd buyer gets 1st selection in year 3, etc.). That's pretty awful. Do early buyers pay a premium? Do late buyers get a discount? Why not do a lottery? Or an actual cash based auction (proceeds go to maintenance fees... which is good for everyone)?

rblack44 5y ago
Curious why you think this is awful. The order rotates each year so for a home sold in 1/4 fractions, every owner would get 1st choice once in a 4 year period. Then it starts over again. All buyers pay the same rate, the priority selection rewards people who buy first, it's a benefit for moving fast. We are contemplating a snake draft system if we decide to allow people to schedule more than 1 priority date each year. So if you go last on your 1st choice, you'd get 1st pick on your 2nd choice. Does that seem more fair from your perspective? A lottery is an interesting concept, but it's only really equitable over a long time horizon. What if I got a bad luck fo the draw 3 years in a row? Scheduling is hard, and we are constantly looking for ways to improve so we really appreciate the feedback!
- ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
  Is there any pre-draft conversation between owners or is it all an arms-length thing where each owner just starts seeing dates disappear on the calendar in Ancana? Seems like with a good group of co-owners who understand each other’s intentions, they might plan around each other somewhat for mutually agreeable outcomes. E.g. if Owner 1 just wants a lot of time in the place in shoulder seasons for mild weather but Owner 2 specifically wants certain fall dates for an anniversary, the first owner could (inadvertently) screw the second owner if that wasn’t communicated.
- rbobby 5y ago
  Last buyer has to wait 3 years to get first pick. Yuck. A lottery to set the initial order is fair to everyone. If you want to find out what the actual cash value of picking first, second or third is then do an auction.

rglullis 5y ago

Make it for digital nomads who are willing to pay a monthly fee to build equity on the properties. Offer not just vacation homes but homes that are big enough to have 6-10 people co-working and co-living. Instead of having 4 families splitting a house for 3 months, every participant has the right to live in the house or to rent it out. Create a market for them so that they can trade their shares. Make it easy for people to sell their shares for co-owners. Make it international, focusing on places that are reasonably developed and with good climate: southern Europe and the Caribbean. For the past 5 years I've been unsuccessfully trying to convince my very risk-averse wife (civil engineer) that digital nomads are going to be an increasingly powerful market. If you are willing to do any of that, let me know so that I can quit my job and apply to work with you. :) If not, please let me know what problems you see with it. I've been thinking about this for quite a while and the pandemic made it even more appealing to me.

rblack44 5y ago
Love some of these ideas! We are getting a lot of interest from digital nomads looking at this not just as an investment in a vacation home, but as a remote office for a few months a year. We are looking at how we can better serve that market, would love to chat as it seems like you've been thinking about this for a bit. Shoot me an email (ryan@ancana.co). Many of the homes are big enough spaces to use for coworking, but not always ideally furnished as such. It could be interesting to tailor some homes for this exact use case. Interesting. The rental rules depend on the property. Some of our homes are in communities with rules governing short term rentals. For the others, we leave it up to the owners to decide as a group whether to allow renting the home when not in use. We definitely see an opportunity for people to trade time in different homes. With the affordability of many of our properties, we think some people will buy shares in a few homes and bounce around. Anyway, would love to get in touch and pick your brain
ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
I wonder if something like this could help with residency through investment visas, etc. I mean, I know nomads are nomadic by definition so maybe some wouldn’t care much about long-term residency but I’d imagine a lot of American digital nomads would be happy if they could get a foot in the door for EU residency for example.

quickthrowman 5y ago

How do you plan to handle maintenance, especially maintenance that can be deferred until it suddenly cannot, like foundation/slab issues, sewer line/septic replacement, site drainage problems, roof replacement, etc. The interests of the owners may not be aligned.

coverband 5y ago

Are any of these properties available for U.S. buyers, or only to those that live in Mexico?

rblack44 5y ago
Yes! We have started focusing on areas that appeal the most to US buyers (Cabo, Tulum, Puerto Vallarta, etc). Most of our marketing to date has been geared towards the Mexico market but we are starting to reach out to US buyers as well!

jdkee 5y ago

The documentary "The Queen of Versailles" documents the wife of a time-share mogul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQW9Ks0GZUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQW9Ks0GZUQ

javierneumann 5y ago

excelent!

ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago

So, no presumption against the founders here, but what happens if Ancana folds in a few years? Each property’s trust still exists and everyone still owns their shares but they need to find a new manager for the trust? I have pretty much no knowledge of that industry - are there other companies ready to take over management of the property and allocation of dates in a situation like that?

dewski 5y ago
That’s exactly how it works with Pacaso. I presume it’s the same for Ancana.
rblack44 5y ago
Yes, the trust remains in place and the legal rights of all the owners are unaffected. The co-owners can simply find another property management company. Even in the event Ancana is still in business but the co-owners are unhappy with our service for whatever reason, they can vote to drop Ancana and hire another company of their choosing

mrfusion 5y ago

I think this is a great idea. I never understood why this isn’t a thing.

slackstation 5y ago

You property descriptions are in Spanish on the English version of the site. https://en.ancana.co/properties/casa-tortuga https://en.ancana.co/properties/casa-tortuga

digitcatphd 5y ago

I thought this was owning shares in a managed Airbnb and you charged management fees. I agree now with the comments that this is essentially just timeshare in a different suit.

Anahi2016 5y ago

I think we should give these guys a chance. Maybe their communication needs a little work but to the people saying it's time shares in a different coat, we just don't know that for sure. Although I'm not saying your concerns are unfounded either. Their model is unique and we don't know exactly how it's going to pan out. Personally, I think it might be promising depending on how it's done.

mypetgoat 5y ago

You would probably make more money putting the property on Airb’n’b

Slast101 5y ago

1) Some people here commenting that you should do this with family/friends. Certainly can work but people change with time. Much better to have a formal structure that will work with strangers. This will inevitably happen in case of changed circumstances of owner or family of an owner (death being the worst case. Unfortunately, most who use \a formal structure get it written by a lawyer who will not anticipate potential problems. 2) This sort of scheme should not be looked on as a financial instrument. Should only be seen as a discretionary/leisure purchase that must have use/enjoyment as its #1 priority. Having said that, we just sold the Lake Tahoe property of our first syndicate of this type after 40 years, and showed a decent rate of return after ALL costs were considered, and great vacations all that time. We had multiple changes of shareholder during the that time - almost all by word of mouth, as well as some founders in at the close. Key was getting the right agreement before getting too enthusiastic about a specific property.