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the #1 thought-terminating cliche I see amongst reasonably intelligent people: conspiracy theory it's amazing how this phrase will shut down critical thought i

the #1 thought-terminating cliche I see amongst reasonably intelligent people: conspiracy theory it's amazing how this phrase will shut down critical thought in otherwise smart folks

ilaksh 5y ago
It's also amazing (but maybe not really surprising) that "conspiracy theory" isn't in the Wikipedia article. I wonder if someone tried to add it already.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Maybe "they" removed it...
  - ilaksh 5y ago
    If you have ever tried to edit something on Wikipedia, you will know that other people deleting your edits is not uncommon. Or a conspiracy theory. Anyone who uses that word might have felt like they needed to delete it from the article.
  - ilaksh 5y ago
    This is a previous version where it was in there. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9&oldid=1028079504 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thought-terminati... And the last entry in Talk is about how it was removed.
    - still_grokking 5y ago
      I've upvoted the grandparent as I though "nice joke". Than I've read your comment… There seems to be a reframing of the term "conspiracy theory" going on right now. I've noticed also something odd: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251945
- dang 5y ago
  The examples they do give are all bland and unprovocative. There are many more, of course.
- bitwize 5y ago
  This is because Wikipedia itself uses "conspiracy theory" to flag ideas its editorship deems should not be taken seriously.
ineptech 5y ago
I don't think this is a good example. If your position is, "We should do X because of Y" and I respond "conspiracy theory", I'm taking the position that Y is inaccurate. You could respond e.g. by citing evidence of it. If OTOH I respond, "Ah, it is what it is", I'm disagreeing that we should do X but without taking any position on Y or explaining why I disagree. That's what TFA is discussing - ways to weasel out of a discussion without being pinned down to a position or an argument.
- HKH2 5y ago
  No, 'conspiracy theory' is used more as a cliche now. It is a status-quo preserving device in media narratives, because you don't want to be a flat-earther, right?
  - ineptech 5y ago
    Perhaps, but it's generally done in the context of arguing against the idea. The connotation of a thought-terminating cliche is that it is a dodge, an avoidance strategy. It fills in the space where a real statement would go, and fulfills the social requirement of needing to say something, without saying anything.
ryandrake 5y ago
Critical thought requires falsifiability and evidence, but conspiracy theory only requires belief.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Every scientific hypothesis starts without evidence. So it must be treated as "conspiracy", and not critical thought, according to you?
  - coaksford 5y ago
    Not being falsifiable and not having evidence aren't the same thing. Conspiracy theories are usually centrally dependent upon something that is both outlandish and impossible to disprove, or some reasoning that is constructed so that it cannot be disproved, as any effort to disprove it is undertaken by "them" by definition and is suspect because they're all in on it the conspiracy. There can be no evidence yet, it becomes a problem when unfalsifiability makes evidence irrelevant.
    - rspeele 5y ago
      Example of unfalsifiability: Alice: Trump won Georgia, but the Dominion voting machines flipped it. Look at how many votes came in for Biden late at night. Bob: It took a long time to finish counting the mail in ballots, and precincts report their results in large batches. Anyway, there was a hand recount of all the paper ballots that were scanned by the machines. If the machines had flipped votes, the paper ballots would still show the originals. Alice: Then the hand recount was faked. Bob: But observers from both parties were present for the recount. By this time the machine flip theory was widespread, so the Republican observers would be on high alert to make sure the recount is right. Alice: Those might not be real Republicans. Like the Secretary of State, they are probably RINOs. Plus the paper ballots themselves were fraudulent. The signatures were faked. Bob: So do you still think the Dominion machines did something wrong, or did they accurately scan the fraudulent paper ballots? Anyway, the state bureau of investigation did a signature audit in Cobb county and found no intentional fraud and only a couple of mistakes where somebody signed for their partner or something. Alice: The GBI is in on it. The fraud was really in Fulton county, so that's where they should've done the signature audit. Didn't you see that batch of secret ballots they hid under a table and pulled out when nobody was looking? Bob: The security camera footage shows that the ballots from under the table are the same ones that were opened from envelopes while the observers were watching. They were just the next batch waiting to be scanned, nothing abnormal about them. The state released the whole footage online, including the parts Trump's lawyers conveniently skipped past. Alice: I know it was stolen. The details of how they did it might never come out, but I can tell Trump really won.
user-the-name 5y ago
Or, maybe you just believe in conspiracy theories that aren't worthy of anyone's attention.
tptacek 5y ago
So basically, on message boards, the notion of a "Thought-Terminating Cliché" is deployed the same way "Logical Fallacies" are, to appeal to the celestial referees for a TKO in an argument. And in that sense, "Thought-Terminating Cliché" is itself a "Thought-Terminating Cliché", disappearing down its own throat uroborotically†. Neat! † A term that now exists.
- still_grokking 5y ago
  I would go even so far to say a thought-terminating cliché is always made up from some logical fallacies. Hard to think of an example that isn't.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  I suppose the phrase can reflexive, although I have to admit this is the first time I had heard of the concept, and "cliche" appears to imply long-and-tired usage. It doesn't appear to be a common thought terminator, certainly not on the level of "conspiracy theory", the application of which we have seen, in both extreme and humorous terms, with respect to the covid lab-leak hypothesis, for example.
- beardyw 5y ago
  Seems that should be "uroborically", not sure where the t came from. "It is what it is" I suppose!
  - dunefox 5y ago
    Let's just agree to disagree. You will understand when you come up with a term of your own.
    - beardyw 5y ago
      I completely understand what you mean.
- edanm 5y ago
  > uroborotically† > † A term that now exists. FYI, by now exists, parent means that he just made it up. I wasn't sure, but according to Google, the only result for this term is this post. Awesome! Going to try and spread it :)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

the #1 thought-terminating cliche I see amongst reasonably intelligent people: conspiracy theory it's amazing how this phrase will shut down critical thought in otherwise smart folks

ilaksh 5y ago

It's also amazing (but maybe not really surprising) that "conspiracy theory" isn't in the Wikipedia article. I wonder if someone tried to add it already.

dane-pgp 5y ago
Maybe "they" removed it...
- ilaksh 5y ago
  If you have ever tried to edit something on Wikipedia, you will know that other people deleting your edits is not uncommon. Or a conspiracy theory. Anyone who uses that word might have felt like they needed to delete it from the article.
- ilaksh 5y ago
  This is a previous version where it was in there. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9&oldid=1028079504 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thought-terminati... And the last entry in Talk is about how it was removed.
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    I've upvoted the grandparent as I though "nice joke". Than I've read your comment… There seems to be a reframing of the term "conspiracy theory" going on right now. I've noticed also something odd: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251945
dang 5y ago
The examples they do give are all bland and unprovocative. There are many more, of course.
bitwize 5y ago
This is because Wikipedia itself uses "conspiracy theory" to flag ideas its editorship deems should not be taken seriously.

ineptech 5y ago

I don't think this is a good example. If your position is, "We should do X because of Y" and I respond "conspiracy theory", I'm taking the position that Y is inaccurate. You could respond e.g. by citing evidence of it. If OTOH I respond, "Ah, it is what it is", I'm disagreeing that we should do X but without taking any position on Y or explaining why I disagree. That's what TFA is discussing - ways to weasel out of a discussion without being pinned down to a position or an argument.

HKH2 5y ago
No, 'conspiracy theory' is used more as a cliche now. It is a status-quo preserving device in media narratives, because you don't want to be a flat-earther, right?
- ineptech 5y ago
  Perhaps, but it's generally done in the context of arguing against the idea. The connotation of a thought-terminating cliche is that it is a dodge, an avoidance strategy. It fills in the space where a real statement would go, and fulfills the social requirement of needing to say something, without saying anything.

ryandrake 5y ago

Critical thought requires falsifiability and evidence, but conspiracy theory only requires belief.

inter_netuser 5y ago
Every scientific hypothesis starts without evidence. So it must be treated as "conspiracy", and not critical thought, according to you?
- coaksford 5y ago
  Not being falsifiable and not having evidence aren't the same thing. Conspiracy theories are usually centrally dependent upon something that is both outlandish and impossible to disprove, or some reasoning that is constructed so that it cannot be disproved, as any effort to disprove it is undertaken by "them" by definition and is suspect because they're all in on it the conspiracy. There can be no evidence yet, it becomes a problem when unfalsifiability makes evidence irrelevant.
  - rspeele 5y ago
    Example of unfalsifiability: Alice: Trump won Georgia, but the Dominion voting machines flipped it. Look at how many votes came in for Biden late at night. Bob: It took a long time to finish counting the mail in ballots, and precincts report their results in large batches. Anyway, there was a hand recount of all the paper ballots that were scanned by the machines. If the machines had flipped votes, the paper ballots would still show the originals. Alice: Then the hand recount was faked. Bob: But observers from both parties were present for the recount. By this time the machine flip theory was widespread, so the Republican observers would be on high alert to make sure the recount is right. Alice: Those might not be real Republicans. Like the Secretary of State, they are probably RINOs. Plus the paper ballots themselves were fraudulent. The signatures were faked. Bob: So do you still think the Dominion machines did something wrong, or did they accurately scan the fraudulent paper ballots? Anyway, the state bureau of investigation did a signature audit in Cobb county and found no intentional fraud and only a couple of mistakes where somebody signed for their partner or something. Alice: The GBI is in on it. The fraud was really in Fulton county, so that's where they should've done the signature audit. Didn't you see that batch of secret ballots they hid under a table and pulled out when nobody was looking? Bob: The security camera footage shows that the ballots from under the table are the same ones that were opened from envelopes while the observers were watching. They were just the next batch waiting to be scanned, nothing abnormal about them. The state released the whole footage online, including the parts Trump's lawyers conveniently skipped past. Alice: I know it was stolen. The details of how they did it might never come out, but I can tell Trump really won.

user-the-name 5y ago

Or, maybe you just believe in conspiracy theories that aren't worthy of anyone's attention.

tptacek 5y ago

So basically, on message boards, the notion of a "Thought-Terminating Cliché" is deployed the same way "Logical Fallacies" are, to appeal to the celestial referees for a TKO in an argument. And in that sense, "Thought-Terminating Cliché" is itself a "Thought-Terminating Cliché", disappearing down its own throat uroborotically†. Neat! † A term that now exists.

still_grokking 5y ago
I would go even so far to say a thought-terminating cliché is always made up from some logical fallacies. Hard to think of an example that isn't.
recursivedoubts 5y ago
I suppose the phrase can reflexive, although I have to admit this is the first time I had heard of the concept, and "cliche" appears to imply long-and-tired usage. It doesn't appear to be a common thought terminator, certainly not on the level of "conspiracy theory", the application of which we have seen, in both extreme and humorous terms, with respect to the covid lab-leak hypothesis, for example.
beardyw 5y ago
Seems that should be "uroborically", not sure where the t came from. "It is what it is" I suppose!
- dunefox 5y ago
  Let's just agree to disagree. You will understand when you come up with a term of your own.
  - beardyw 5y ago
    I completely understand what you mean.
edanm 5y ago
> uroborotically† > † A term that now exists. FYI, by now exists, parent means that he just made it up. I wasn't sure, but according to Google, the only result for this term is this post. Awesome! Going to try and spread it :)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]