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U.S. Officials in Germany Hit by Havana Syndrome
- rbanffy 5y agoShould we still call it Havana Syndrome?
- fouric 5y agoThere's always the alternative "Anomalous Health Incident" terminology that the federal government uses, although it's an incredibly vague term that makes me feel uncomfortable using.
- shadowgovt 5y agoProbably not. Geopolitical naming of maladies carries unnecessary political baggage that can be unhelpful in root-causing a disease. (Perhaps more importantly, they often prove historically inaccurate in hindsight. Spanish Flu didn't originate in Spain; Spain was the first place where news was able to report on the disease because they weren't under a wartime press embargo).
- jessaustin 5y agoYeah it should have been called Kansas Flu. That pandemic was one of the more disastrous aspects of the multifaceted disaster that was Wilson's dishonest entry into WWI.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y agoFYI, The WHO "best practices for naming new human infectious diseases" (2015) are the reason why COVID-19 has that name, not any Geographically-linked name. Times have moved on since the "Spanish" flu. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/163636/WHO_HSE_FOS_15.1_eng.pdf https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/163636/WHO_... https://www.who.int/news/item/08-05-2015-who-issues-best-practices-for-naming-new-human-infectious-diseases https://www.who.int/news/item/08-05-2015-who-issues-best-pra...
- vmception 5y agono, it is indefensible shorthand given how polarizing Wuhan labeling was
- ramesh31 5y agoWhen are we going to stand up and start treating Russia as an openly hostile belligerent nation engaged in clandestine warfare against us?
- tantalor 5y agoHow about since 1947? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War
- tgv 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_(1985%E2%80%931991)#End_of_the_Cold_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_(1985%E2%80%931991)#E...
- CountDrewku 5y agoWe? Nah the US is done. We're a weakening power that's not going to be doing anything about these countries. They're going to continue to do what they want without consequence.
- eloff 5y agoWhy would you assume Russia when we don't even know what the cause is?
- pentae 5y agoI'm wondering why if this continues happening the US consulates have not put in some kind of detection hardware? Seems like an easy solution
- shadowgovt 5y agoWe're still at the phase of this story where we don't actually know what's going on. WSJ is reporting on it like it's understood, but the conclusion of NASEM (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-diplomats-illnesses-likely-linked-to-pulsed-energy-attack-11607278210?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-diplomats-illnesses-likely-...) was that more research is needed. Hard to detect "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy" when you have no idea what you're actually looking for. If you go looking at the bulk of the electromagnetic spectrum for correlators to a vague symptom list, you'll definitely find them but be no closer to explaining causality (or finding culprits).
- KingOfCoders 5y ago"Hard to detect "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy" when you have no idea what you're actually looking for" Hard to believe, any source for this?
- shadowgovt 5y agoRadio physics. If you don't know where in the frequency band your signal is or what it's shaped like, then if you go hunting, you'll find something. Many things, in fact. You now have the task of taking all those correlations and making a causal story for them causing your sick patients' symptoms. Depending on how wide the net is you're casting (in frequencies, time, locations of target, and possible attack signal patterns), this is SETI@Home stuff. And if we have no idea what we're looking for, we're going to have to cast a wide net.
- kube-system 5y agoDo we know that they haven't?
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- fouric 5y agoI think that, between the earlier articles about this effect happening in the mainland US[1] and now Germany, it's safe to say that at this point the hypothesis that this is some benign phenomenon (e.g. cricket noises[2]) has been sufficiently debunked. Given that, the current interesting question is whether this effect is unintentional (e.g. two newly-deployed RF technologies that interact with each other in a harmful way) or whether it's flat-out a weapon. Given that almost exclusively US officials have acquired these symptoms, I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/mysterious-health-incidents-rise-to-130-us-officials-confirm/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/mysterious-health-in... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837561
- shadowgovt 5y ago> I would like to hear the arguments that one would give for it not being a weapon. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but when it does the simplest correlation is often pointing at the correct causation. Could be a weapon... Or, could be two technologies the US regularly deploys to its own bases interfering with each other (perhaps some standard-issue State Department tech and some classified self-snooping tech the NSA or CIA deploys to monitor its own agents who are considered sensitive national assets?). That would explain why the incidents happen only on US bases and not, say, to any other adversaries of the Russian or Chinese state.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoIt could possibly be a modern "Folie à deux" or shared delusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux Essentially, for whatever reason, people working in the Cuban embassy started feeling ill with mysterious symptoms and that caught on. It could have originally been something like sick building syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome But then people latched on to the idea that it was caused by some kind of sonic device or hitherto unknown weapon targeting embassies. Someone starts to feel sick? Oh my god, it could be Havana Syndrome! Now that you mention it Becky, I'm starting to feel queasy too... A parallel is how the notion that MSG causes headaches caught on. One doctor suggested that there is a link between eating Chinese restaurant food flavored with MSG and headaches. But "Thirty years after the Chinese restaurant syndrome was debunked, stigmas about MSG persist." People who believe this will legitimately start to feel sick if you feed them MSG, even if you didn't actually put any MSG in and lie that you did. Now I'm not saying this is what is actually happening because we just don't know yet. Edit: And, most of the symptoms, headache, nausea, anxiety, insomnia, are all really common side effects and can be caused by just about anything.
- uCantCauseUCant 5y agoSeems some travelling circus is taking revenge for that series of cancer affecting south american government officials. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/cancer-fear-of-south-american-leaders/330768 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/cancer-fear-of-south-american...
- literallyaduck 5y agoWould lead paint help? https://www.yshield.com/en/ https://www.yshield.com/en/
- vpeters25 5y agoProbably blankets embedded with a conductive metal mesh in a pattern designed to block microwaves could be issued to all US personnel in foreign countries.
- ganoushoreilly 5y agoI think the main reason traditional faraday cage style tech isn't deployed is the missions of these facilities. It's not just about blocking signals from the outside, you may be limiting or mitigating collection equipment or even broadcast equipment. I will say, anyone that's worked with portable broadcast / collection equipment (microwave or sat) are given clear directions to watch where you walk and no "cross the beams" because of various side effects to include sterility. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's some weird counter effect from multiple systems internally that have been deployed at these sites.
- sonicggg 5y agoWhy do you guys insist on posting paywalled links here? Is it too much of an intellectual effort to post the outline link for this article, like I am doing now? https://outline.com/tprV7Z https://outline.com/tprV7Z
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- twic 5y agoThe link to the original site is at least canonical. The link to the original site is at least canonical. Should OP have posted your link, or https://archive.is/JeJDP https://archive.is/JeJDP?
- MattGaiser 5y agoDisagree. We should go with the original source as the article might be updated. Not sure if Outline automatically updates, but archive sites would not and they seem to be the more common paywall bypass here.
- nimbius 5y ago>nausea, severe headaches, ear pain, fatigue, insomnia and sluggishness all these symptoms are virtually indistinguishable from any meal at The Cheesecake Factory, so call me skeptical. Its also an attack that cannot be detected by the worlds most sophisticated military, so, occhams razor.. the question im interested in hearing the answer to: can you retire with full pension early from civil service in the embassy if you can prove a medical affliction or disability. also worth noting the research on the matter isnt exactly concrete. no peer reviewed studies exist to even corroborate an attack at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome#Studies_regarding_injury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome#Studies_regard...
- spywaregorilla 5y agoYour occhams razor is that a large number of people are collectively faking symptoms to get a few years out on pension? IS this satire?
- nimbius 5y agoThe number of American citizens experiencing symptoms was 26 as of June 2018. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-usa-diplomats/us-says-26-americans-at-cuba-embassy-had-health-problems-after-another-case-confirmed-idUSKBN1JO2P2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-usa-diplomats/us-say... so uh, yeah, im guessing there are a few dozen people who might want out.
- spywaregorilla 5y agoWell it's not June 2018, is it? There are hundreds of people now saying they're suffering from this. There's a chance that some of them are lying, and some of them are misinformed, but it's incredibly unlikely that all of them are incorrect.
- toxik 5y agoWhy is this so surprising? This is something people have been doing for decades in most welfare societies.
- hugh4life 5y agoI'm still very skeptical but humor me, Given these anecdotes from Wikipedia: "As the officer pulled his car into a busy intersection, he suddenly felt as though his head were going to explode. His two-year-old son, in a car seat in the back, started screaming. As the officer sped out of the intersection, the pressure in his head ceased, and his son went quiet." "In 2019, a White House official reported experiencing debilitating symptoms while walking her dog in a Virginia suburb of Washington; the incident was publicly reported in 2020." The most common explanation is microwave radiation. So, how large of a device do people think it would take to induce these symptoms? Speculate, what would this device look like? ---- EDIT: China used microwave weapons against India in a border dispute. How similar are the symptoms? https://eurasiantimes.com/has-india-finally-acknowledged-that-chinese-pla-used-microwave-weapons-against-indian-soldiers-in-ladakh/ https://eurasiantimes.com/has-india-finally-acknowledged-tha...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dougmwne 5y agoThis always smells like the US Govt knows exactly what's going on, but it's too sensitive to come right out and say "The Chinese spy agency is microwaving our brains, but we've been microwaving them back". Better to drop a bit of news and hint at it to put some political pressure, but not get the US population upset enough to demand sanctions or something economically disastrous.
- ithinkso 5y agoWhat I don't understand about discussions in this thread is that RF is treated as almost magic and 'new technology' can make it do anything. Electromagnetism is virtually perfectly understood and there is nothing more it can do, definitely not responsible for nausea ffs without burning you from the outside... (unless it's ionizing radiation at the other side o the spectrum from RF but radiation sickness is also well understood and would be super hard to miss). Not to mention sound that apparently is being heard... If someone really is targeting US diplomats worldwide, with those sets of symptoms, why does it have to be a sci-fi tech instead of, old as time itself, plain poisoning
- MattGaiser 5y agoElectromagnetism is understood, but how about the brain?
- ithinkso 5y agoThere is a skin and a skull in front of it. Of course you can fry someone with microwaves, magnetrons are all sort of dangerous at high enough power (lasers are too) but what they are not is selective and a cause of weird brain effects And also, the only thing you need to detect it is a very simple antenna, you can't hide radiation
- Max-20 5y agoReading the comments here makes me think nobody even bothered to read the article. Right in the first half they mentioned that there was a physical representation of the illness in the brain tissue when they did a MRI scan. This is NOT a shared paranoia, because you can't see them on a brain scan. This seems like a very real and frightening disease.
- bjourne 5y agoThis is a reference to the Princeton study. The authors claimed to have found "brain abnormalities" by inspecting MRIs of the diplomats. Other neuroscientists criticized the study. The MRIs themselves are classified and has not been released to the public.
- ashildr 5y agoIf Russia had a secret sci-fi weapon like this it would be very stupid (and completely useless) to waste it on US-diplomats. If it exists, it is likely is an unintended side effect. Either something is more toxic than expected, more contaminated, or more physically damaging to people. Or the effect is quite common if one just looks closely at (a specific group of) people, because „healthy“ just means „not properly diagnosed, yet“.
- gecko 5y ago> If Russia had a secret sci-fi weapon like this it would be very stupid (and completely useless) to waste it on US-diplomats. ...like...you are aware the Russians used polonium traceable to their reactors to publicly poison individuals they disagreed with, right? Using special stuff to explicitly trace back to them is kind of their MO.
- KingOfCoders 5y agoWhat I do not understand, if this is a weapon, how can a country which deploys the most sensitive sensors in their embassies to listen in on their host country (sound, electromagnetic, gravitonic, ...), not detect this? And if it is radiation/waves that there are no sensors for, why aren't new sensors installed? So the CIA scrambles around and installs a myriad of new sensors in every embessay, and nothing after years? The opponent has not only some new kind of weapon, but a new kind of energy or rays that are not gravitational, electromagnetic or sonic? So they have a Nobel prize winning physics discovery and use it to make people in embassies sick?
- KingOfCoders 5y ago"At least two [!] U.S. officials stationed in Germany sought [...]and some [!] victims were left unable to work". I'm not a native speaker, but two officials had troubles, and "some" of these two are unable to work. "“There is no evidence about what happened to us, but it is striking that some of us had worked on Russia-related issues,” said the worker, who declined to be named." So the weapon also knows on what people work on? Or should we assume a perfect infiltration of the US intelligence aparatus by the Russians so they know what person is working on what? Or who is sitting where? But not only that, but "In some cases, the symptoms have persisted after the relocation, leading security services to believe that the people targeted have been tracked down to their new residence." And the weapon can detect nationality (if not targetting appartments but the embassy), as "Some 20 American officials in Austria have reported the mysterious symptoms—the largest number since Cuba" and no Austrian is affected. I do think this is a really badly written article.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> two officials had troubles No, multiple officials had troubles, and the number (beyond that it is multiple) is not being released because they were (in part) in sensitive intelligence work and revealing the number affected would itself be providing valuable information to hostile intelligence actors. > So the weapon also knows on what people work on? More likely, the people using the weapon do, or know the particular specific locations where that work is done, or know what work someone is doing and are targeting others by association. > Or should we assume a perfect infiltration of the US intelligence aparatus by the Russians so they know what person is working on what? It wouldn't be unprecedented for the Russians (or, at least, their Soviet predecessors) to have high-level penetration of major Western (counter/)intelligence services. Ames and Hanssen in the US, the Cambridge ring in the UK, etc.
- simonblack 5y agoWorkplace injuries. Common denominator is that (almost) all of the victims are US Officials. The countries where this 'problem' is happening are both allied and adversary nations, (even happened in Washington DC). Something at their job is doing this.