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It is frustrating that they seem weary of clarifying what's "processed" versus "ultra-processed". Some level of processing is unavoidable if your dinner is any

It is frustrating that they seem weary of clarifying what's "processed" versus "ultra-processed". Some level of processing is unavoidable if your dinner is anything other than a foraged or garden salad. Many of our "processing" methods were once rudimentary preservation methods: pickling, curing, fermenting, etc. The image of the greasy Costco-style pizza slice is usually held up as the poster-child for "ultra-processed" food, but they never go into great detail about which elements are particularly harmful. What if I make my pizza from scratch? Is natural-casing pepperoni still an "ultra-processed" ingredient simply by being cured? Or only if it's cured by nitrites and pumped full of preservatives? Is there any cheese that qualifies as minimally-processed versus ultra-processed? The message gets muddled by being vague, because it always seems to come across as just "Eat healthier!", which is not terribly helpful.

jeffbee 5y ago
The only thing that's not clear is whether you've read these articles or not. It's quite explicit in their method that pizza made from scratch is not "ultra-processed" because by their definitions, ultra-processed foods are made in industrial processes at industrial scale, from fractionated ingredients of "no or rare culinary use". """Food substances not used in kitchens appear in the beginning or in the middle of the lists of ingredients of ultra-processed foods. These include hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, gluten, casein, whey protein, ‘mechanically separated meat’, fructose, high-fructose corn syrup, ‘fruit juice concentrate’, invert sugar, maltodextrin, dextrose, lactose, soluble or insoluble fibre, hydrogenated or interesterified oil; and also other sources of protein, carbohydrate or fat which are neither foods from NOVA group 1 or group 3, nor culinary ingredients from NOVA group 2. The presence in the list of ingredients of one or more of these food substances identifies a product as ultra-processed."""
- dolni 5y ago
  Why should I believe that "mechanically separated meat" is any worse for me than any other meat? Clearly the act of separating parts of an animal is not adding unhealthy compounds to your food. Which then makes me think: if they are willing to include that, how low is the bar for considering something "ultra processed"?
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    because mechanically separated meat isn't actually muscle meat like you think 'other meat'. They remove most of the muscle meat, large fats, organs, and bones from a carcass, and then grind the carcass into a paste. The paste is then passed through a sieve under pressure. nutritionally it likely has nothing to do with 'meat' as you know it from a grocery store or butcher.
    - dolni 5y ago
      That's a fair point. Thank you for clarifying the distinction.
  - otikik 5y ago
    I have visited a sausage factory. I think that's the kind of meat you are going to get when it's "mechanically separated"; you are not getting ham, because in that case they would put "ham" on the list of ingredients. I think they did the right thing in marking that as "ultra processed". I am not willing to go into details on this. I will just say that "meat" does not mean the same for everyone. Do your own research if you must. I don't recommend it.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      I'll just say it. They blender it and then filter out the bone bits. It looks unpleasant. But the description of the process is no problem at all.
      - otikik 5y ago
        But "it" isn't only muscle and bone.
      - unixhero 5y ago
        No problem to feed this to your kids?
        5y ago
- jxramos 5y ago
  that's a superb distinction, the notion of a culinary ingredient, which I'm imagining is basically ingredients you could pick off the shelf for the most part. Like you'd never find "maltodextrin" in the spices aisle, going with that line of thinking we can ask "Can I as grocery store customer directly purchase these ingredients in my shopping list that targets the single dinner meal scale."
- fjgcugdfgff 5y ago
  Except I have used many of these in my kitchen: - hydrolyzed proteins: vegemite - gluten: to make seitan or add to bread dough - fructose: agave syrup - high fructose corn syrup - fruit juice concentrate - invert sugar: golden syrup - maltodextrin: in powdered soymilk - dextrose: artificial sweeteners are mostly this by mass - hydrogenated oil: vegetables shortening, no less healthy than butter (assuming no trans fat)
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> The image of the greasy Costco-style pizza slice is usually held up as the poster-child for "ultra-processed" food, but they never go into great detail about which elements are particularly harmful. Yes they do. They put a short quote in the linked article and they expand on it further in the study: > We found that ultraprocessed foods contain a substantially higher percent of calories from carbohydrates and added sugars, and higher levels of sodium, but also had less fiber and a lower percentage of calories from protein This study was targeted toward food science, not the general public, but in my opinion they did a decent job of explaining the difference. Really though, the defining line between processed and ultra-processed isn't a single ingredient that will make or break your health. It's a spectrum, and this study shows that the average dietary composition is shifting further to one end of the spectrum. If you're trying to split hairs over the dividing line between processed and ultra-processed, you might miss the point. This isn't meant to be a guidebook about which ingredients are and aren't acceptable.
- AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
  > Really though, the defining line between processed and ultra-processed isn't a single ingredient that will make or break your health. It's a spectrum, and this study shows that the average dietary composition is shifting further to one end of the spectrum. Sure, and maybe it's outside of the scope of the study, but if we want the pendulum to shift back the other way, we'll probably need to allow for some baby-steps. People won't give up their burgers, pizza, and microwave popcorn overnight. But you might be able to get some people to switch to a less-processed form of popcorn if you tell them, "Microwaved popcorn is problematic because it is coated in artificially-hydrogenated coconut oil. But popcorn made in a hot-air popper or on the stove with some regular vegetable oil does not have this problem." Similarly, a person trying to make a "healthier", non-ultra-processed burger at home might be left wondering if such a thing is even possible, since hamburger buns and most commercially-available cheeses are ultra-processed by definition. I doubt that anyone at home has the inclination to try making cheese from scratch.

jeffbee 5y ago

The only thing that's not clear is whether you've read these articles or not. It's quite explicit in their method that pizza made from scratch is not "ultra-processed" because by their definitions, ultra-processed foods are made in industrial processes at industrial scale, from fractionated ingredients of "no or rare culinary use". """Food substances not used in kitchens appear in the beginning or in the middle of the lists of ingredients of ultra-processed foods. These include hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, gluten, casein, whey protein, ‘mechanically separated meat’, fructose, high-fructose corn syrup, ‘fruit juice concentrate’, invert sugar, maltodextrin, dextrose, lactose, soluble or insoluble fibre, hydrogenated or interesterified oil; and also other sources of protein, carbohydrate or fat which are neither foods from NOVA group 1 or group 3, nor culinary ingredients from NOVA group 2. The presence in the list of ingredients of one or more of these food substances identifies a product as ultra-processed."""

dolni 5y ago
Why should I believe that "mechanically separated meat" is any worse for me than any other meat? Clearly the act of separating parts of an animal is not adding unhealthy compounds to your food. Which then makes me think: if they are willing to include that, how low is the bar for considering something "ultra processed"?
- LegitShady 5y ago
  because mechanically separated meat isn't actually muscle meat like you think 'other meat'. They remove most of the muscle meat, large fats, organs, and bones from a carcass, and then grind the carcass into a paste. The paste is then passed through a sieve under pressure. nutritionally it likely has nothing to do with 'meat' as you know it from a grocery store or butcher.
  - dolni 5y ago
    That's a fair point. Thank you for clarifying the distinction.
- otikik 5y ago
  I have visited a sausage factory. I think that's the kind of meat you are going to get when it's "mechanically separated"; you are not getting ham, because in that case they would put "ham" on the list of ingredients. I think they did the right thing in marking that as "ultra processed". I am not willing to go into details on this. I will just say that "meat" does not mean the same for everyone. Do your own research if you must. I don't recommend it.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    I'll just say it. They blender it and then filter out the bone bits. It looks unpleasant. But the description of the process is no problem at all.
    - otikik 5y ago
      But "it" isn't only muscle and bone.
    - unixhero 5y ago
      No problem to feed this to your kids?
      - 5y ago
jxramos 5y ago
that's a superb distinction, the notion of a culinary ingredient, which I'm imagining is basically ingredients you could pick off the shelf for the most part. Like you'd never find "maltodextrin" in the spices aisle, going with that line of thinking we can ask "Can I as grocery store customer directly purchase these ingredients in my shopping list that targets the single dinner meal scale."
fjgcugdfgff 5y ago
Except I have used many of these in my kitchen: - hydrolyzed proteins: vegemite - gluten: to make seitan or add to bread dough - fructose: agave syrup - high fructose corn syrup - fruit juice concentrate - invert sugar: golden syrup - maltodextrin: in powdered soymilk - dextrose: artificial sweeteners are mostly this by mass - hydrogenated oil: vegetables shortening, no less healthy than butter (assuming no trans fat)

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> The image of the greasy Costco-style pizza slice is usually held up as the poster-child for "ultra-processed" food, but they never go into great detail about which elements are particularly harmful. Yes they do. They put a short quote in the linked article and they expand on it further in the study: > We found that ultraprocessed foods contain a substantially higher percent of calories from carbohydrates and added sugars, and higher levels of sodium, but also had less fiber and a lower percentage of calories from protein This study was targeted toward food science, not the general public, but in my opinion they did a decent job of explaining the difference. Really though, the defining line between processed and ultra-processed isn't a single ingredient that will make or break your health. It's a spectrum, and this study shows that the average dietary composition is shifting further to one end of the spectrum. If you're trying to split hairs over the dividing line between processed and ultra-processed, you might miss the point. This isn't meant to be a guidebook about which ingredients are and aren't acceptable.

AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
> Really though, the defining line between processed and ultra-processed isn't a single ingredient that will make or break your health. It's a spectrum, and this study shows that the average dietary composition is shifting further to one end of the spectrum. Sure, and maybe it's outside of the scope of the study, but if we want the pendulum to shift back the other way, we'll probably need to allow for some baby-steps. People won't give up their burgers, pizza, and microwave popcorn overnight. But you might be able to get some people to switch to a less-processed form of popcorn if you tell them, "Microwaved popcorn is problematic because it is coated in artificially-hydrogenated coconut oil. But popcorn made in a hot-air popper or on the stove with some regular vegetable oil does not have this problem." Similarly, a person trying to make a "healthier", non-ultra-processed burger at home might be left wondering if such a thing is even possible, since hamburger buns and most commercially-available cheeses are ultra-processed by definition. I doubt that anyone at home has the inclination to try making cheese from scratch.