12 ms·

Fantastic font, now infinitely malleable! Unfortunately it is expensive, and you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually. https://w

Fantastic font, now infinitely malleable! Unfortunately it is expensive, and you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually. https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/mti/helvetica-now-variable?tab=licensing https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/mti/helvetica-now-variable?tab... And my use case isn't even covered: include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers. My current choice is OpenSans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans

Noxmiles 5y ago
How does this work? Normally I download and install TTF files and install them on my computer. How are licensed fonts work? Is there some kind of proprietary installation?
- ctvo 5y ago
  If you violate their agreement, and they find it, they sue you.
- sodality2 5y ago
  You probably can't use it for any commercial purpose. Locally they can't really do much about it.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Copyright licensing is entirely a legal construct. Some people attempt to make DRM to enforce it, but it's certainly not a requirement. For example, if you visit my webpage, your computer will download the copyrighted text from it and save it in your cache.
- _greim_ 5y ago
  If you (the end user) download and install a font on your machine, or buy an OS with it pre-installed, then you (the end user) are paying the licensing for it. If you (the website operator) link to a font from your CSS file so end users' browsers will download and render text with it, then you (the website operator) are paying the licensing fees.
  - kwonkicker 5y ago
    That is the most insane thing ive heard. Am i to pay extra for every person passing by the billboard ive designed?! Who thought this was ok?! So i could go broke if my website goes viral for the wrong reasons?! Insanity.
    - _greim_ 5y ago
      Simple solution, just use an open font!
KitDuncan 5y ago
Look at Inter. Absolutely the best open source font I found. Also variable!
- N1H1L 5y ago
  Another great option and my current favorite is the Source Family from Adobe. They are open source and variable, and have a full family of Serif, Sans and Monospace fonts. https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-serif https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-serif https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro
  - Igelau 5y ago
    I used Source Code Pro all the time until I found out about Comic Mono.
    - bjoli 5y ago
      I went there and expected something like comic sans. I was blown away, until I realized I disabled webfonts a long time ago. I had a proper look at it after that. It isn't even half bad. I never disliked comic sans for the use cases it was intended for, and a derived coding font is a fun project.
da_chicken 5y ago
> Unfortunately it is expensive, and you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually. Not even that. If you want it for a web page you have to pay in blocks of page views. In my mind that moves it from "eh" to "LOL no". These are licensing terms for people who want the name.
- alexwennerberg 5y ago
  Typefaces should not be copyrightable. Print ones are not, it makes no sense that digital ones are.
  - croes 5y ago
    Print fonts are copyrightable.
    - flowerlad 5y ago
      In the United States, the shapes of typefaces are not eligible for copyright. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_typefaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti...
      - da_chicken 5y ago
        Ah, so that's how knock-off fonts work. You can reproduce essentially the same output (the typeface) as long as the code that produces it is distinct (the font).
      - croes 5y ago
        But in France and Germany but not Austria despite the Vienna Agreement for the Protection of Type Faces and their International Deposit. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/seldoc/1973/2203.html http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/seldoc/1973/2203.htm...
  - pkaye 5y ago
    The digital one is considered as code. In some countries even the print one has copyright.
traceroute66 5y ago
I thought best-practice for web apps was to use system fonts ? e.g. along the lines blogged here[1] [1] https://booking.design/implementing-system-fonts-on-booking-com-a-lesson-learned-bdc984df627f https://booking.design/implementing-system-fonts-on-booking-...
- Santosh83 5y ago
  CSSWG is trying to standardise ui-serif, ui-sans-serif, ui-monospace and so on. System fonts are a good option if you don't mind sacrificing brand identity for performance. But fonts are not the main causes of latency and lag in most sites these days. The main culprits are tons of ads, tracking scripts and images.
- kevincox 5y ago
  IMHO if you can convince people that you don't need "brand identity" the best font is not choosing a font at all and using the browsers default. (Or maybe "sans-serif" because a lot of browsers have serif defaults which isn't always the best).
newhotelowner 5y ago
I prefer Source Sans Pro. https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Source+Sans+Pro https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Source+Sans+Pro
stimpson_j_cat 5y ago
> you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually The page you linked to says otherwise ("License: Pay Once"). In some cases the license is annual. > include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers The page you linked to also includes this as a licensing option, no? ("App: for embedding in mobile applications")
- jbellis 5y ago
  I don't see "pay once" as an option anywhere on that page.
  - crazygringo 5y ago
    I do. As soon as you click "Buying choices" it defaults to "Desktop" checked with "License: Pay Once" for "1-5 users".
- woofie11 5y ago
  Read the license. "Pay once and don't use it" would be a fair description.
vmception 5y ago
The secret ingredient is copyright infringement
msla 5y ago
> And my use case isn't even covered: include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers. My current choice is OpenSans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans My God if you didn't tee this up perfectly: https://web.archive.org/web/20090422173924/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/04/21/fuck-the-foundries https://web.archive.org/web/20090422173924/http://diveintoma... > FUCK THE FOUNDRIES > Seriously. Fuck them. They still think they’re in the business of shuffling little bits of metal around. You want to use a super-cool ultra-awesome totally-not-one-of-the-11-web-safe-fonts? Pick an open source font and get on with your life. > I know what you’re going to say. I can hear it in my head already. It sounds like the voice of the comic book guy from The Simpsons. You’re going to say, “Typography is by professionals, for professionals. Free fonts are worth less than you pay for them. They don’t have good hinting. They don’t come in different weights. They don’t have anything near complete Unicode coverage. They don’t, they don’t, they don’t…” > And you’re right. You’re absolutely, completely, totally, 100% right. “Your Fonts” are professionally designed, traditionally licensed, aggressively marketed, and bought by professional designers who know a professional typeface when they see it. “Our Fonts” are nothing more than toys, and I’m the guy showing up at the Philadelphia Orchestra auditions with a tin drum and a kazoo. “Ha ha, look at the freetard with his little toy fonts, that he wants to put on his little toy web page, where they can be seen by 2 billion people ha h… wait, what?” > Let me put it another way. Your Fonts are superior to Our Fonts in every conceivable way, except one: > WE CAN’T FUCKING USE THEM
- barnabee 5y ago
  Agree. We have literally got to the point of commisioning fonts so we don't have to worry about licensing (bonus: we will also be able to make them freely available, and hopefully fully open source too).
- mrunseen 5y ago
  True but some foundries have had unrestricted licenses (i.e Swiss Foundry) or has recently changed (ABC Dinamo). I completely agree with the webfonts mess though, it’s just so hard to license it as opposed to licensing desktop fonts.
mod50ack 5y ago
If you want to use Helvetica, you can use the FOSS Nimbus Sans. It's literally a reimplementation of PostScript Helvetica. https://github.com/ArtifexSoftware/urw-base35-fonts https://github.com/ArtifexSoftware/urw-base35-fonts

Noxmiles 5y ago

How does this work? Normally I download and install TTF files and install them on my computer. How are licensed fonts work? Is there some kind of proprietary installation?

ctvo 5y ago
If you violate their agreement, and they find it, they sue you.
sodality2 5y ago
You probably can't use it for any commercial purpose. Locally they can't really do much about it.
kube-system 5y ago
Copyright licensing is entirely a legal construct. Some people attempt to make DRM to enforce it, but it's certainly not a requirement. For example, if you visit my webpage, your computer will download the copyrighted text from it and save it in your cache.
_greim_ 5y ago
If you (the end user) download and install a font on your machine, or buy an OS with it pre-installed, then you (the end user) are paying the licensing for it. If you (the website operator) link to a font from your CSS file so end users' browsers will download and render text with it, then you (the website operator) are paying the licensing fees.
- kwonkicker 5y ago
  That is the most insane thing ive heard. Am i to pay extra for every person passing by the billboard ive designed?! Who thought this was ok?! So i could go broke if my website goes viral for the wrong reasons?! Insanity.
  - _greim_ 5y ago
    Simple solution, just use an open font!

KitDuncan 5y ago

Look at Inter. Absolutely the best open source font I found. Also variable!

N1H1L 5y ago
Another great option and my current favorite is the Source Family from Adobe. They are open source and variable, and have a full family of Serif, Sans and Monospace fonts. https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-serif https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-serif https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro
- Igelau 5y ago
  I used Source Code Pro all the time until I found out about Comic Mono.
  - bjoli 5y ago
    I went there and expected something like comic sans. I was blown away, until I realized I disabled webfonts a long time ago. I had a proper look at it after that. It isn't even half bad. I never disliked comic sans for the use cases it was intended for, and a derived coding font is a fun project.

da_chicken 5y ago

> Unfortunately it is expensive, and you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually. Not even that. If you want it for a web page you have to pay in blocks of page views. In my mind that moves it from "eh" to "LOL no". These are licensing terms for people who want the name.

alexwennerberg 5y ago
Typefaces should not be copyrightable. Print ones are not, it makes no sense that digital ones are.
- croes 5y ago
  Print fonts are copyrightable.
  - flowerlad 5y ago
    In the United States, the shapes of typefaces are not eligible for copyright. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_typefaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti...
    - da_chicken 5y ago
      Ah, so that's how knock-off fonts work. You can reproduce essentially the same output (the typeface) as long as the code that produces it is distinct (the font).
    - croes 5y ago
      But in France and Germany but not Austria despite the Vienna Agreement for the Protection of Type Faces and their International Deposit. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/seldoc/1973/2203.html http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/seldoc/1973/2203.htm...
- pkaye 5y ago
  The digital one is considered as code. In some countries even the print one has copyright.

traceroute66 5y ago

I thought best-practice for web apps was to use system fonts ? e.g. along the lines blogged here[1] [1] https://booking.design/implementing-system-fonts-on-booking-com-a-lesson-learned-bdc984df627f https://booking.design/implementing-system-fonts-on-booking-...

Santosh83 5y ago
CSSWG is trying to standardise ui-serif, ui-sans-serif, ui-monospace and so on. System fonts are a good option if you don't mind sacrificing brand identity for performance. But fonts are not the main causes of latency and lag in most sites these days. The main culprits are tons of ads, tracking scripts and images.
kevincox 5y ago
IMHO if you can convince people that you don't need "brand identity" the best font is not choosing a font at all and using the browsers default. (Or maybe "sans-serif" because a lot of browsers have serif defaults which isn't always the best).

newhotelowner 5y ago

I prefer Source Sans Pro. https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Source+Sans+Pro https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Source+Sans+Pro

stimpson_j_cat 5y ago

> you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually The page you linked to says otherwise ("License: Pay Once"). In some cases the license is annual. > include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers The page you linked to also includes this as a licensing option, no? ("App: for embedding in mobile applications")

jbellis 5y ago
I don't see "pay once" as an option anywhere on that page.
- crazygringo 5y ago
  I do. As soon as you click "Buying choices" it defaults to "Desktop" checked with "License: Pay Once" for "1-5 users".
woofie11 5y ago
Read the license. "Pay once and don't use it" would be a fair description.

vmception 5y ago

The secret ingredient is copyright infringement

msla 5y ago

> And my use case isn't even covered: include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers. My current choice is OpenSans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans My God if you didn't tee this up perfectly: https://web.archive.org/web/20090422173924/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/04/21/fuck-the-foundries https://web.archive.org/web/20090422173924/http://diveintoma... > FUCK THE FOUNDRIES > Seriously. Fuck them. They still think they’re in the business of shuffling little bits of metal around. You want to use a super-cool ultra-awesome totally-not-one-of-the-11-web-safe-fonts? Pick an open source font and get on with your life. > I know what you’re going to say. I can hear it in my head already. It sounds like the voice of the comic book guy from The Simpsons. You’re going to say, “Typography is by professionals, for professionals. Free fonts are worth less than you pay for them. They don’t have good hinting. They don’t come in different weights. They don’t have anything near complete Unicode coverage. They don’t, they don’t, they don’t…” > And you’re right. You’re absolutely, completely, totally, 100% right. “Your Fonts” are professionally designed, traditionally licensed, aggressively marketed, and bought by professional designers who know a professional typeface when they see it. “Our Fonts” are nothing more than toys, and I’m the guy showing up at the Philadelphia Orchestra auditions with a tin drum and a kazoo. “Ha ha, look at the freetard with his little toy fonts, that he wants to put on his little toy web page, where they can be seen by 2 billion people ha h… wait, what?” > Let me put it another way. Your Fonts are superior to Our Fonts in every conceivable way, except one: > WE CAN’T FUCKING USE THEM

barnabee 5y ago
Agree. We have literally got to the point of commisioning fonts so we don't have to worry about licensing (bonus: we will also be able to make them freely available, and hopefully fully open source too).
mrunseen 5y ago
True but some foundries have had unrestricted licenses (i.e Swiss Foundry) or has recently changed (ABC Dinamo). I completely agree with the webfonts mess though, it’s just so hard to license it as opposed to licensing desktop fonts.

mod50ack 5y ago

If you want to use Helvetica, you can use the FOSS Nimbus Sans. It's literally a reimplementation of PostScript Helvetica. https://github.com/ArtifexSoftware/urw-base35-fonts https://github.com/ArtifexSoftware/urw-base35-fonts