9 ms·

Specifically the governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic directly into the ocean. Even if they polluted at them same level as the rest of the world, it

Specifically the governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic directly into the ocean. Even if they polluted at them same level as the rest of the world, it would be a huge success. But then the rest of the world and the oil industry also deserves blame for spreading the myth of plastic recycling.

torgian 5y ago
Oh no doubt. Plastic pollution is a huge problem here.
weddpros 5y ago
The west needs to stop sending "recyclable" plastics to Asia
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  China used to buy plastic waste from the west (95% of Europe and 70% of USA's plastic waste). China isn't some poverty stricken unaccountable backwater where it was just being dumped, they were explicitly engaging in contracts and giving good rates for backhaul routes on cargo ships. If they then mismanaged the waste after they took ownership of it, that's China's failing. China have since mostly banned that, which sounds like what China needed to do to reign in their incapable plastic recycling industry. So that's fine, but the problem remains that about 80% of ocean plastic waste comes from Asia. Almost 40% from The Philippines alone even when most of the west's waste was going to China. So this can't be handwaved away as being due to "the west", it's a systemic problem in many countries in Asia in particular.
  - Smithalicious 5y ago
    The issue isn't "whose fault is it", the issue is what can we do about it, because we're all getting equally fucked by this. The hidden assumption is "we = the west". If China mismanages our waste then we shouldn't send it there, because mother nature doesn't care if it's technically our fault or not.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      The issue is whose fault it is, because that's who needs to be helped and/or pressured into fixing it. We should have regulations on exporting waste, but the west exporting waste is not the cause of the pollution.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        A lot of waste is exported illegally, and then we refuse to take it back! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_waste_dispute#:~:text=In%202016%2C%20a%20Philippine%20court,Plastics%20to%20retrieve%20their%20trash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_w....
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        Did you read the link? The Philippines seems to have had adequate inspection regulations, disputed the contract they had with this private company via legal channels, and Canada reciprocated by amending their laws to be able to receive the shipments back and The Philippines kept up pressure until that was done and it seems to be considered settled. Dealing with other people's plastic is easy because there is demand and money in it for you. Dealing with your own isn't quite so interesting that way -- that's what they need to be encouraged to do.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Dony you think it is an isolated incident? If you search, there are constant disputes with western garbage being illegally imported into second and third world countries. For every ton of garbage that is caught or adressed, seven pass under the radar. These are corrupt, struggling countries - you could import slaves and nukes if you k wo who to bribe https://www.greenpeace.org/philippines/press/2698/greenpeace-statement-on-the-australian-waste-found-in-misamis-oriental/ https://www.greenpeace.org/philippines/press/2698/greenpeace...
        5y ago
  - Voloskaya 5y ago
    Asia does not just mean « China ». Canada has been sending its plastic to the Philippines, where it is constantly mismanaged and ends up in the ocean (edit: not helped by the fact that Canada’s plastic was full of household garbage making it impossible to recycle properly anyway, see [1]) . Is it Philippines fault for mismanaging ? Sure, but it has been public for a long time and Canada kept sending plastic over there knowing full well what would happen with it. But it doesn’t matter because no one will blame plastic coming from Asia’s river on Canada. Same story applies to India’s ship dismantling industry, where tons of damaging materials ends up in the ocean. Do we stop sending our ships there ? Of course not, because it doesn’t matter no one will blame Carnival for that. We are not paying for recycling we are paying for environment damage laundering, so that at home we can display impressive lies such as « 98% of Canadian plastic is recycled » or whatever. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Philippines_waste_dispute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Philippines_waste_dis...
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      > Asia does not just mean « China » Thanks I know, but that's where the vast majority of the west's waste went when we still had big pollution problems with other countries. The solution is for them to control their plastic waste properly and instill their culture with values about litter, with economic incentives and technological help.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    I like this mental gymnastics - we have priduced this toxic shit, we refuse to recylce it and ship it to a place where we know it will end up in ocean, and now its someone else's problem. The west is good at many things, but from slave trade to the oil industry, responsibility and respect for locals was never among them.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      The mental gymnastics is thinking Asian countries has no agency or ability to control what they buy or how they manage their waste.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        A bit of legal advice, if you know you are facilitating a crime for personal gain, you are likely guilty of a crime. A judge will take dim view of your excuse about the killer or money launderer having his own "agency". Do you really think these imports are legally clean, they haven't greased a few palms at the customs? You can import anything into Russia if you bribe the right guy. I bet that if we investigated even just the western side of the trash export industry, we will fund it to be a corupt crine-ridden cesspool
        throwawaylinux 5y ago
        Dispensing unsolicited legal advice is not an argument.
        cto_of_antifa 5y ago
        That was their example, not their argument. "what about china" is a bad argument.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Abdication of responsibility is not an argument
- kortilla 5y ago
  That doesn’t fucking help as long as their governments are willing to do it. What do you think will happen with the local plastics? Some of the worst offending rivers are in India and the Philippines and “the west” doesn’t send plastic there. Cut the whataboutism shit and pressure every country directly that is doing this.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
More specifically, The Philippines. https://ourworldindata.org/ocean-plastics https://ourworldindata.org/ocean-plastics At this point we just need to pay them for their trash or something.
- ibeckermayer 5y ago
  Recklessly polluting a shared and vital resource like the oceans is an act of war. If the US wasn’t busy squandering unimaginable amounts of resources in backwaters like Afghanistan, we could be wielding our military might towards genuinely virtuous ends like putting a stop to this criminality. We certainly shouldn’t let ourselves be held hostage and paying them “protection money”
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rubicon33 5y ago
    This is the kind of America strong arming that I could get behind.
    - intended 5y ago
      I’m sure Russia and China would too. And then use it to open new fronts against America.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    It would be easier and much cheaper to go in and provide proper waste disposal services than to try to use the military. Don't just send money, send people to go in and fix it.
    - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
      Unfortunately no, that won’t work either. No culture can change it’s behavior without significant buy in from the people which takes a lot of work and time, no matter what you’re trying to do. And more money and more people does not usually mean faster.
jimmaswell 5y ago
But they banned convenient plastic bags and straws from stores in the west, I thought that was supposed to save the planet.
TaylorAlexander 5y ago
The west is also responsible for producing and glamorizing extremely wasteful lifestyles. We could have bulk food grocery stores where you can bring re-used glass jars but instead everything is wrapped in multiple layers of plastic meant to be tossed as soon as the product is consumed. The USA has pushed an extremely materialistic lifestyle that has driven the mass manufacture of plastic waste. Western countries need to take responsibility for the waste we produce instead of sending it “away” to be somebody else’s problem. Edit: Just expanding on glass jars - I started saving all of my glass jars about a year ago. My shelf of jars is overflowing now, and they have many uses. I use peanut butter jars to hold my daily smoothie. I make candles with the jam jars. We know the plastics industry pushed disposable products hard. And to me it speaks to a broader problem with US business logic - lie cheat and steal at any cost and that is "good" for society. There may be unseemly actions down the waste stream but we are responsible for the culture that produces so much trash.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  I've travelled a fair bit in the "non-west" and they use the same packaging everyone else does.
  - deadalus 5y ago
    It is well known that Americans consume far more natural resources and live much less sustainably than people from any other large country of the world. “A child born in the United States will create thirteen times as much ecological damage over the course of his or her lifetime than a child born in Brazil,” reports the Sierra Club’s Dave Tilford, adding that the average American will drain as many resources as 35 natives of India and consume 53 times more goods and services than someone from China. Source : https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-consumption/ https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-c...
    - SilverRed 5y ago
      Its also somewhat of a "lead by example" situation. Those most capable of implementing solutions should implement every solution they have and show how it can be done and then the rest of the world will follow or at least feel the pressure. Rather than rich countries with citizens living the most resource intensive lifestyles possible judging people in poverty for not having better than first world waste treatment.
t0rt01se 5y ago
As soon as you say 'governments of Asia' you've lost. They've a lot of polluting to do before they catch up with other 'government's' legacy of pollution. National governments are not compatible with solutions to global problems.
crubier 5y ago
The governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic into the ocean ? I’m pretty sure it’s the people, not « governments », who are dumping plastic on the land, which gets washed down the rivers into the ocean. I agree that the blame is not always 100% on individuals. But systematically blaming anything bad 100% on « governments » is not productive either.
- halfdan 5y ago
  Yes and no. You need a proper functioning garbage disposal system first. I've visited places in countries where the people could shop plastic wrapped items en masse but the government failed to provide proper garbage disposal. What are these people supposed to do? They get their food wrapped in plastic but have no way of disposing of said plastic other than dumping it in nature.
  - crubier 5y ago
    Fair point. In many cases though, people can vote for their government. But not always indeed.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Not this Asian coutries meme again. Do you know we the 'west' are shipping trash to them, illegally? And when its exposed we refuse to take it back? https://www.ecowatch.com/us-illegal-plastic-waste-2651126176.html https://www.ecowatch.com/us-illegal-plastic-waste-2651126176... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_waste_dispute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_w...
- madacol 5y ago
  Ctrl+f "ton" 0 hits "kg" 0 hits "%" 0 hits It seems there's no data, I assume they are just "story-telling" a couple of data points
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    You dont like this article, there are hundreds more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/climate/plastics-waste-export-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/climate/plastics-waste-ex...
    - madacol 5y ago
      I think the figure is "48 million tons" in January sent from US to Malaysia and Indonesia. I still need more context data to change my mind, but it's a huge improvement over previous links, thanks.
sneak 5y ago
Where is the link between plastic in oceans and gray whale deaths established? Litter is unsightly but plastic can just be put in a landfill without much harm.
yhoneycomb 5y ago
Ahhh classic Hacker News "West good, East bad" level of "critical" thinking
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
> Specifically the governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic directly into the ocean. "The West has been dumping tens of millions of tons of trash in Southeast Asian countries for more than 25 years - now they want to send it back"[1] [] https://www.businessinsider.in/science/the-west-has-been-dumping-tens-of-millions-of-tons-of-trash-in-southeast-asian-countries-for-more-than-25-years-now-they-want-to-send-it-back/articleshow/69543657.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/science/the-west-has-been-dum...

torgian 5y ago

Oh no doubt. Plastic pollution is a huge problem here.

weddpros 5y ago

The west needs to stop sending "recyclable" plastics to Asia

throwawaylinux 5y ago
China used to buy plastic waste from the west (95% of Europe and 70% of USA's plastic waste). China isn't some poverty stricken unaccountable backwater where it was just being dumped, they were explicitly engaging in contracts and giving good rates for backhaul routes on cargo ships. If they then mismanaged the waste after they took ownership of it, that's China's failing. China have since mostly banned that, which sounds like what China needed to do to reign in their incapable plastic recycling industry. So that's fine, but the problem remains that about 80% of ocean plastic waste comes from Asia. Almost 40% from The Philippines alone even when most of the west's waste was going to China. So this can't be handwaved away as being due to "the west", it's a systemic problem in many countries in Asia in particular.
- Smithalicious 5y ago
  The issue isn't "whose fault is it", the issue is what can we do about it, because we're all getting equally fucked by this. The hidden assumption is "we = the west". If China mismanages our waste then we shouldn't send it there, because mother nature doesn't care if it's technically our fault or not.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    The issue is whose fault it is, because that's who needs to be helped and/or pressured into fixing it. We should have regulations on exporting waste, but the west exporting waste is not the cause of the pollution.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      A lot of waste is exported illegally, and then we refuse to take it back! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_waste_dispute#:~:text=In%202016%2C%20a%20Philippine%20court,Plastics%20to%20retrieve%20their%20trash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_w....
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        Did you read the link? The Philippines seems to have had adequate inspection regulations, disputed the contract they had with this private company via legal channels, and Canada reciprocated by amending their laws to be able to receive the shipments back and The Philippines kept up pressure until that was done and it seems to be considered settled. Dealing with other people's plastic is easy because there is demand and money in it for you. Dealing with your own isn't quite so interesting that way -- that's what they need to be encouraged to do.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Dony you think it is an isolated incident? If you search, there are constant disputes with western garbage being illegally imported into second and third world countries. For every ton of garbage that is caught or adressed, seven pass under the radar. These are corrupt, struggling countries - you could import slaves and nukes if you k wo who to bribe https://www.greenpeace.org/philippines/press/2698/greenpeace-statement-on-the-australian-waste-found-in-misamis-oriental/ https://www.greenpeace.org/philippines/press/2698/greenpeace...
        5y ago
- Voloskaya 5y ago
  Asia does not just mean « China ». Canada has been sending its plastic to the Philippines, where it is constantly mismanaged and ends up in the ocean (edit: not helped by the fact that Canada’s plastic was full of household garbage making it impossible to recycle properly anyway, see [1]) . Is it Philippines fault for mismanaging ? Sure, but it has been public for a long time and Canada kept sending plastic over there knowing full well what would happen with it. But it doesn’t matter because no one will blame plastic coming from Asia’s river on Canada. Same story applies to India’s ship dismantling industry, where tons of damaging materials ends up in the ocean. Do we stop sending our ships there ? Of course not, because it doesn’t matter no one will blame Carnival for that. We are not paying for recycling we are paying for environment damage laundering, so that at home we can display impressive lies such as « 98% of Canadian plastic is recycled » or whatever. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Philippines_waste_dispute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Philippines_waste_dis...
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    > Asia does not just mean « China » Thanks I know, but that's where the vast majority of the west's waste went when we still had big pollution problems with other countries. The solution is for them to control their plastic waste properly and instill their culture with values about litter, with economic incentives and technological help.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  I like this mental gymnastics - we have priduced this toxic shit, we refuse to recylce it and ship it to a place where we know it will end up in ocean, and now its someone else's problem. The west is good at many things, but from slave trade to the oil industry, responsibility and respect for locals was never among them.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    The mental gymnastics is thinking Asian countries has no agency or ability to control what they buy or how they manage their waste.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      A bit of legal advice, if you know you are facilitating a crime for personal gain, you are likely guilty of a crime. A judge will take dim view of your excuse about the killer or money launderer having his own "agency". Do you really think these imports are legally clean, they haven't greased a few palms at the customs? You can import anything into Russia if you bribe the right guy. I bet that if we investigated even just the western side of the trash export industry, we will fund it to be a corupt crine-ridden cesspool
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        Dispensing unsolicited legal advice is not an argument.
        cto_of_antifa 5y ago
        That was their example, not their argument. "what about china" is a bad argument.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Abdication of responsibility is not an argument
kortilla 5y ago
That doesn’t fucking help as long as their governments are willing to do it. What do you think will happen with the local plastics? Some of the worst offending rivers are in India and the Philippines and “the west” doesn’t send plastic there. Cut the whataboutism shit and pressure every country directly that is doing this.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

More specifically, The Philippines. https://ourworldindata.org/ocean-plastics https://ourworldindata.org/ocean-plastics At this point we just need to pay them for their trash or something.

ibeckermayer 5y ago
Recklessly polluting a shared and vital resource like the oceans is an act of war. If the US wasn’t busy squandering unimaginable amounts of resources in backwaters like Afghanistan, we could be wielding our military might towards genuinely virtuous ends like putting a stop to this criminality. We certainly shouldn’t let ourselves be held hostage and paying them “protection money”
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rubicon33 5y ago
  This is the kind of America strong arming that I could get behind.
  - intended 5y ago
    I’m sure Russia and China would too. And then use it to open new fronts against America.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  It would be easier and much cheaper to go in and provide proper waste disposal services than to try to use the military. Don't just send money, send people to go in and fix it.
  - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
    Unfortunately no, that won’t work either. No culture can change it’s behavior without significant buy in from the people which takes a lot of work and time, no matter what you’re trying to do. And more money and more people does not usually mean faster.

jimmaswell 5y ago

But they banned convenient plastic bags and straws from stores in the west, I thought that was supposed to save the planet.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago

The west is also responsible for producing and glamorizing extremely wasteful lifestyles. We could have bulk food grocery stores where you can bring re-used glass jars but instead everything is wrapped in multiple layers of plastic meant to be tossed as soon as the product is consumed. The USA has pushed an extremely materialistic lifestyle that has driven the mass manufacture of plastic waste. Western countries need to take responsibility for the waste we produce instead of sending it “away” to be somebody else’s problem. Edit: Just expanding on glass jars - I started saving all of my glass jars about a year ago. My shelf of jars is overflowing now, and they have many uses. I use peanut butter jars to hold my daily smoothie. I make candles with the jam jars. We know the plastics industry pushed disposable products hard. And to me it speaks to a broader problem with US business logic - lie cheat and steal at any cost and that is "good" for society. There may be unseemly actions down the waste stream but we are responsible for the culture that produces so much trash.

stickfigure 5y ago
I've travelled a fair bit in the "non-west" and they use the same packaging everyone else does.
- deadalus 5y ago
  It is well known that Americans consume far more natural resources and live much less sustainably than people from any other large country of the world. “A child born in the United States will create thirteen times as much ecological damage over the course of his or her lifetime than a child born in Brazil,” reports the Sierra Club’s Dave Tilford, adding that the average American will drain as many resources as 35 natives of India and consume 53 times more goods and services than someone from China. Source : https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-consumption/ https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/united-states-c...
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    Its also somewhat of a "lead by example" situation. Those most capable of implementing solutions should implement every solution they have and show how it can be done and then the rest of the world will follow or at least feel the pressure. Rather than rich countries with citizens living the most resource intensive lifestyles possible judging people in poverty for not having better than first world waste treatment.

t0rt01se 5y ago

As soon as you say 'governments of Asia' you've lost. They've a lot of polluting to do before they catch up with other 'government's' legacy of pollution. National governments are not compatible with solutions to global problems.

crubier 5y ago

The governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic into the ocean ? I’m pretty sure it’s the people, not « governments », who are dumping plastic on the land, which gets washed down the rivers into the ocean. I agree that the blame is not always 100% on individuals. But systematically blaming anything bad 100% on « governments » is not productive either.

halfdan 5y ago
Yes and no. You need a proper functioning garbage disposal system first. I've visited places in countries where the people could shop plastic wrapped items en masse but the government failed to provide proper garbage disposal. What are these people supposed to do? They get their food wrapped in plastic but have no way of disposing of said plastic other than dumping it in nature.
- crubier 5y ago
  Fair point. In many cases though, people can vote for their government. But not always indeed.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

Not this Asian coutries meme again. Do you know we the 'west' are shipping trash to them, illegally? And when its exposed we refuse to take it back? https://www.ecowatch.com/us-illegal-plastic-waste-2651126176.html https://www.ecowatch.com/us-illegal-plastic-waste-2651126176... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_waste_dispute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Philippines_w...

madacol 5y ago
Ctrl+f "ton" 0 hits "kg" 0 hits "%" 0 hits It seems there's no data, I assume they are just "story-telling" a couple of data points
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  You dont like this article, there are hundreds more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/climate/plastics-waste-export-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/climate/plastics-waste-ex...
  - madacol 5y ago
    I think the figure is "48 million tons" in January sent from US to Malaysia and Indonesia. I still need more context data to change my mind, but it's a huge improvement over previous links, thanks.

sneak 5y ago

Where is the link between plastic in oceans and gray whale deaths established? Litter is unsightly but plastic can just be put in a landfill without much harm.

yhoneycomb 5y ago

Ahhh classic Hacker News "West good, East bad" level of "critical" thinking

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

> Specifically the governments of Asia need to stop dumping plastic directly into the ocean. "The West has been dumping tens of millions of tons of trash in Southeast Asian countries for more than 25 years - now they want to send it back"[1] [] https://www.businessinsider.in/science/the-west-has-been-dumping-tens-of-millions-of-tons-of-trash-in-southeast-asian-countries-for-more-than-25-years-now-they-want-to-send-it-back/articleshow/69543657.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/science/the-west-has-been-dum...