9 ms·

I have heard nothing but horror stories from those who worked at RV.

by beckler 5y ago

dw-im-here 5y ago
I got some pretty bad vibes from reading about their business model. We don't need more of this adtech shit
- tjfl 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm never calling a toll free number again. > For instance, they purchased more than a million toll-free phone numbers, and each visitor to their marketing website was shown a different one. So when prospective customers called, Red Ventures knew exactly what they had been looking at on the site, which gave the agents what they needed to make personalized sales pitches. This was a pretty high-tech form of digital surveillance in those more innocent times.
  - combyn8tor 5y ago
    Ethics aside, that is pretty clever.
    - rambambram 5y ago
      Cleverness aside, that's pretty unethical.
      - jstummbillig 5y ago
        How so? Most people wouldn't claim it's "unethical" to be addressed by a clerc in context of what they looked at in a store - only in that case you are actually required to interact.
        harry8 5y ago
        Oh do come the hell on. I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. I know what the clerk can only guess about me from my appearance. This is the clerk picking your damn pocket to find examine the contents of your wallet before returning it without your knowledge. You didn't agree to it. You now don't know what they know - but - and this is the real kicker - you probably think you do. Nobody ever gave informed consent for of this surveillance which has been a massive bait and switch. It does /not/ map to going into a store and having the clerk watch which product you look at before assisting you.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
        > I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. Just be clear, we are still exactly talking about a website owner tracking what somebody looked at and passing said information on by utilizing unique phone numbers in case they call? Because I can't help but feel like we escalated this thing a notch to vent on pent-up feelings about privacy in general (which we might actually agree on, but yeah, different scope)
        harry8 5y ago
        And you're completely aware of that and you know what the person selling to you knows about your actions just like you do in a shop? No? Ok then. It's one example of many of secret and deceptive surveillance. If you want to be angrier about worse ones please feel free... As an aside, there have been plenty of things from which we defend ourselves from salesmen. Both ethical and not dating from well before Berners-Lee thought "I can use markup to make a documentation system with this new-fangled tcp/ip thing on unix machines right here at CERN!" Some of us are naturally better equipped to defend against all the techniques than others. Arming con-people grifting from the gullible with additional personal information to use as secret ammunition along side psychological manipulation seems wrong to me. The continuum goes all the way from "no such thing as a bad sale" through all selling is wrong. That's where I sit on that continuum. YMMV.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
      - redeux 5y ago
        Why is this unethical? If you go into a shop, can’t the shop keeper see what you’re looking at and talk to you about that item specifically? Do shops not have surveillance cameras that record your every moment? I start to see ethical problems when they start selling or sharing the personalized data they collect with other parties, or start tracking you when you’re not on their site.
        BrianOnHN 5y ago
        They are the third party...
        skeeter2020 5y ago
        Lots of things become unethical at scale.
        rambambram 5y ago
        See harry8's reply. But my main reason for nipping this in the bud, is a trend I see wherein shitty behavior somehow becomes okay because it looks clever, as in: hey, I didn't think about that. It's not clever, it's deceptive, rat-like, low behavior. That's something else than clever, in my book. And you probably never thought of it because you're a human being, who doesn't regularly come up with ways to f*ck people over.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      Manipulation and lies typically are clever, otherwise people wouldn't fall for them.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    They did that years ago. These days Google has a product that can dynamically insert a local area code number to link your call to web behavior. Presumably RV and others can do it too, and if it’s integrated server-side it can’t be blocked.
  - darrenf 5y ago
    That the numbers were toll free is entirely unrelated to the surveillance aspect. There are companies who provide regular local area numbers, with all kinds of analytics (number of answered calls, average length of time to answer, etc) plus recordings and lots more. See https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking for just one example.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      WATS lines (toll-free service numbers) provide additional caller information above and beyond a standard toll line, on the premise that it's the callee who's paying for the call. This has been a privacy concern for decades. Services have changed substantially and I'm no longer current on information (WATS itself has been retired), but no, a toll-free call is not the same as a standard POTS / direct-dialed toll number, AFAIU. That's above and beyond the per-user or per-source tracking accomplished here. Note that similar schemes can be run via postal mail through specific P.O. Box or department routing addresses.
  - cgarvis 5y ago
    They own 5% of all phone numbers in order to pull this off.
kuyan 5y ago
Wow, no kidding. Never heard of them before but the sentiment on /r/Charlotte is pretty visceral. https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.com%2Fr%2FCharlotte https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.c...
- drstewart 5y ago
  The sentiment on reddit for everything is visceral. Very bitter place.
  - IggleSniggle 5y ago
    It really depends on the subreddit.
- tvanantwerp 5y ago
  Oof. Makes me glad my interviews with them didn't go very far.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    I did tech training years ago, and the company I contracted for had me interview with some of their team to discuss customized on-site training. I think I got the call because I was one of the closest people to their SC office, and would have been able to do multiple on-site weeks without much issue. But... someone on the call didn't like my description of classes (like object/class stuff), from what I remember - disagreed with both some of the material and some of what I'd said about classes. FWIR, he didn't like them at all, and thought classes were "too much overhead" or something along those lines. I'd indicated that we could customize the material to focus on whatever they wanted to focus on. They were onboarding something like... 10-15 developers every other week, and this would have been a "crash course"-style "everyone learn the same thing to get started" - a combination of "our internal processes" but also "industry standard stuff" from an outside company. We didn't get the gig, and I think they just settled on "in house only", IIRC. This was probably... 2009? Knowing they were adding ~20 developers per month was already an indication they were growing organically pretty fast (imo).

I have heard nothing but horror stories from those who worked at RV.

dw-im-here 5y ago

I got some pretty bad vibes from reading about their business model. We don't need more of this adtech shit

tjfl 5y ago
Yeah, I'm never calling a toll free number again. > For instance, they purchased more than a million toll-free phone numbers, and each visitor to their marketing website was shown a different one. So when prospective customers called, Red Ventures knew exactly what they had been looking at on the site, which gave the agents what they needed to make personalized sales pitches. This was a pretty high-tech form of digital surveillance in those more innocent times.
- combyn8tor 5y ago
  Ethics aside, that is pretty clever.
  - rambambram 5y ago
    Cleverness aside, that's pretty unethical.
    - jstummbillig 5y ago
      How so? Most people wouldn't claim it's "unethical" to be addressed by a clerc in context of what they looked at in a store - only in that case you are actually required to interact.
      - harry8 5y ago
        Oh do come the hell on. I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. I know what the clerk can only guess about me from my appearance. This is the clerk picking your damn pocket to find examine the contents of your wallet before returning it without your knowledge. You didn't agree to it. You now don't know what they know - but - and this is the real kicker - you probably think you do. Nobody ever gave informed consent for of this surveillance which has been a massive bait and switch. It does /not/ map to going into a store and having the clerk watch which product you look at before assisting you.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
        > I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. Just be clear, we are still exactly talking about a website owner tracking what somebody looked at and passing said information on by utilizing unique phone numbers in case they call? Because I can't help but feel like we escalated this thing a notch to vent on pent-up feelings about privacy in general (which we might actually agree on, but yeah, different scope)
        harry8 5y ago
        And you're completely aware of that and you know what the person selling to you knows about your actions just like you do in a shop? No? Ok then. It's one example of many of secret and deceptive surveillance. If you want to be angrier about worse ones please feel free... As an aside, there have been plenty of things from which we defend ourselves from salesmen. Both ethical and not dating from well before Berners-Lee thought "I can use markup to make a documentation system with this new-fangled tcp/ip thing on unix machines right here at CERN!" Some of us are naturally better equipped to defend against all the techniques than others. Arming con-people grifting from the gullible with additional personal information to use as secret ammunition along side psychological manipulation seems wrong to me. The continuum goes all the way from "no such thing as a bad sale" through all selling is wrong. That's where I sit on that continuum. YMMV.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
    - redeux 5y ago
      Why is this unethical? If you go into a shop, can’t the shop keeper see what you’re looking at and talk to you about that item specifically? Do shops not have surveillance cameras that record your every moment? I start to see ethical problems when they start selling or sharing the personalized data they collect with other parties, or start tracking you when you’re not on their site.
      - BrianOnHN 5y ago
        They are the third party...
      - skeeter2020 5y ago
        Lots of things become unethical at scale.
      - rambambram 5y ago
        See harry8's reply. But my main reason for nipping this in the bud, is a trend I see wherein shitty behavior somehow becomes okay because it looks clever, as in: hey, I didn't think about that. It's not clever, it's deceptive, rat-like, low behavior. That's something else than clever, in my book. And you probably never thought of it because you're a human being, who doesn't regularly come up with ways to f*ck people over.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Manipulation and lies typically are clever, otherwise people wouldn't fall for them.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  They did that years ago. These days Google has a product that can dynamically insert a local area code number to link your call to web behavior. Presumably RV and others can do it too, and if it’s integrated server-side it can’t be blocked.
- darrenf 5y ago
  That the numbers were toll free is entirely unrelated to the surveillance aspect. There are companies who provide regular local area numbers, with all kinds of analytics (number of answered calls, average length of time to answer, etc) plus recordings and lots more. See https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking for just one example.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    WATS lines (toll-free service numbers) provide additional caller information above and beyond a standard toll line, on the premise that it's the callee who's paying for the call. This has been a privacy concern for decades. Services have changed substantially and I'm no longer current on information (WATS itself has been retired), but no, a toll-free call is not the same as a standard POTS / direct-dialed toll number, AFAIU. That's above and beyond the per-user or per-source tracking accomplished here. Note that similar schemes can be run via postal mail through specific P.O. Box or department routing addresses.
- cgarvis 5y ago
  They own 5% of all phone numbers in order to pull this off.

kuyan 5y ago

Wow, no kidding. Never heard of them before but the sentiment on /r/Charlotte is pretty visceral. https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.com%2Fr%2FCharlotte https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.c...

drstewart 5y ago
The sentiment on reddit for everything is visceral. Very bitter place.
- IggleSniggle 5y ago
  It really depends on the subreddit.
tvanantwerp 5y ago
Oof. Makes me glad my interviews with them didn't go very far.
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  I did tech training years ago, and the company I contracted for had me interview with some of their team to discuss customized on-site training. I think I got the call because I was one of the closest people to their SC office, and would have been able to do multiple on-site weeks without much issue. But... someone on the call didn't like my description of classes (like object/class stuff), from what I remember - disagreed with both some of the material and some of what I'd said about classes. FWIR, he didn't like them at all, and thought classes were "too much overhead" or something along those lines. I'd indicated that we could customize the material to focus on whatever they wanted to focus on. They were onboarding something like... 10-15 developers every other week, and this would have been a "crash course"-style "everyone learn the same thing to get started" - a combination of "our internal processes" but also "industry standard stuff" from an outside company. We didn't get the gig, and I think they just settled on "in house only", IIRC. This was probably... 2009? Knowing they were adding ~20 developers per month was already an indication they were growing organically pretty fast (imo).