14 ms·

Red Ventures has turned very specific advice into very big business

167 points by SirLJ 5y ago

drannex 5y ago
Archive.is: https://archive.is/e3HN8 https://archive.is/e3HN8
beckler 5y ago
I have heard nothing but horror stories from those who worked at RV.
- dw-im-here 5y ago
  I got some pretty bad vibes from reading about their business model. We don't need more of this adtech shit
  - tjfl 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm never calling a toll free number again. > For instance, they purchased more than a million toll-free phone numbers, and each visitor to their marketing website was shown a different one. So when prospective customers called, Red Ventures knew exactly what they had been looking at on the site, which gave the agents what they needed to make personalized sales pitches. This was a pretty high-tech form of digital surveillance in those more innocent times.
    - combyn8tor 5y ago
      Ethics aside, that is pretty clever.
      - rambambram 5y ago
        Cleverness aside, that's pretty unethical.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
        How so? Most people wouldn't claim it's "unethical" to be addressed by a clerc in context of what they looked at in a store - only in that case you are actually required to interact.
        harry8 5y ago
        Oh do come the hell on. I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. I know what the clerk can only guess about me from my appearance. This is the clerk picking your damn pocket to find examine the contents of your wallet before returning it without your knowledge. You didn't agree to it. You now don't know what they know - but - and this is the real kicker - you probably think you do. Nobody ever gave informed consent for of this surveillance which has been a massive bait and switch. It does /not/ map to going into a store and having the clerk watch which product you look at before assisting you.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
        > I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. Just be clear, we are still exactly talking about a website owner tracking what somebody looked at and passing said information on by utilizing unique phone numbers in case they call? Because I can't help but feel like we escalated this thing a notch to vent on pent-up feelings about privacy in general (which we might actually agree on, but yeah, different scope)
        harry8 5y ago
        And you're completely aware of that and you know what the person selling to you knows about your actions just like you do in a shop? No? Ok then. It's one example of many of secret and deceptive surveillance. If you want to be angrier about worse ones please feel free... As an aside, there have been plenty of things from which we defend ourselves from salesmen. Both ethical and not dating from well before Berners-Lee thought "I can use markup to make a documentation system with this new-fangled tcp/ip thing on unix machines right here at CERN!" Some of us are naturally better equipped to defend against all the techniques than others. Arming con-people grifting from the gullible with additional personal information to use as secret ammunition along side psychological manipulation seems wrong to me. The continuum goes all the way from "no such thing as a bad sale" through all selling is wrong. That's where I sit on that continuum. YMMV.
      - heavyset_go 5y ago
        Manipulation and lies typically are clever, otherwise people wouldn't fall for them.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      They did that years ago. These days Google has a product that can dynamically insert a local area code number to link your call to web behavior. Presumably RV and others can do it too, and if it’s integrated server-side it can’t be blocked.
    - darrenf 5y ago
      That the numbers were toll free is entirely unrelated to the surveillance aspect. There are companies who provide regular local area numbers, with all kinds of analytics (number of answered calls, average length of time to answer, etc) plus recordings and lots more. See https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking for just one example.
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        WATS lines (toll-free service numbers) provide additional caller information above and beyond a standard toll line, on the premise that it's the callee who's paying for the call. This has been a privacy concern for decades. Services have changed substantially and I'm no longer current on information (WATS itself has been retired), but no, a toll-free call is not the same as a standard POTS / direct-dialed toll number, AFAIU. That's above and beyond the per-user or per-source tracking accomplished here. Note that similar schemes can be run via postal mail through specific P.O. Box or department routing addresses.
    - cgarvis 5y ago
      They own 5% of all phone numbers in order to pull this off.
- kuyan 5y ago
  Wow, no kidding. Never heard of them before but the sentiment on /r/Charlotte is pretty visceral. https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.com%2Fr%2FCharlotte https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.c...
  - drstewart 5y ago
    The sentiment on reddit for everything is visceral. Very bitter place.
    - IggleSniggle 5y ago
      It really depends on the subreddit.
  - tvanantwerp 5y ago
    Oof. Makes me glad my interviews with them didn't go very far.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      I did tech training years ago, and the company I contracted for had me interview with some of their team to discuss customized on-site training. I think I got the call because I was one of the closest people to their SC office, and would have been able to do multiple on-site weeks without much issue. But... someone on the call didn't like my description of classes (like object/class stuff), from what I remember - disagreed with both some of the material and some of what I'd said about classes. FWIR, he didn't like them at all, and thought classes were "too much overhead" or something along those lines. I'd indicated that we could customize the material to focus on whatever they wanted to focus on. They were onboarding something like... 10-15 developers every other week, and this would have been a "crash course"-style "everyone learn the same thing to get started" - a combination of "our internal processes" but also "industry standard stuff" from an outside company. We didn't get the gig, and I think they just settled on "in house only", IIRC. This was probably... 2009? Knowing they were adding ~20 developers per month was already an indication they were growing organically pretty fast (imo).
shapefrog 5y ago
This is some solid client journalism.
- cameron_b 5y ago
  Yea the "Why" here is murky.
nickreese 5y ago
RedVentures is pretty much the 1000lb gorilla in SEO lead gen. They also have a pretty large patent library and aren't afraid to use it. This includes a patent on zip code search which our last startup was on the receiving end of an infringement claim.[1] If you are a reporter or investigative journalist I'd encourage you to do some poking around into the business model behind APlaceForMom.com and the FTC action to spin off Caring.com and the overall effect on the nursing home industry. I can go on a major rant about RV, their moves to rollup the majority of the lead gen industry but due to prior legal interactions with them I'll refrain from painting a target on my back any further than I have. --- [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140149249A1/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140149249A1/
- athrowaway3z 5y ago
  I remember reading some piece of policy document that stated offhandedly in its introduction as a matter of fact something like "Patents allow us to foster innovation and are a benefit to society". I can only imagine that businesses are going to setup somewhere outside the US. Not for tax reasons, but simply to avoid the exposure to the minefield of patent.
  - skrebbel 5y ago
    If you do business in the US, a US court can compel you to stop doing so, even if you're not there.
    - staticautomatic 5y ago
      Except that these days they almost never do that.
      - yccs27 5y ago
        With patent claims up to billions of dollars, "they likely won't enforce it" isn't good enough for most serious companies.
dmitriid 5y ago
So. I read the entire article and still have no idea what Red Ventures does. I do know that I was sold Mr. Elias as modern-day Mr. Rogers for all the praise lavished on him.
- weird-eye-issue 5y ago
  They build and acquire websites that make money through ads and affiliate commissions. I have a digital media startup so it was more clear to me
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Thank you for clarification!
- cgarvis 5y ago
  Started out as a DirectTV reseller!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- space_rock 5y ago
  Patient trolls that buy ads in the nytimes? Know nothing about them but that's my guess
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    This article was pretty critical, not sure why you're saying they paid for it.
- heymijo 5y ago
  > I was sold Mr. Elias as modern-day Mr. Rogers for all the praise lavished on him. Saint in the streets, abusive asshole in the office. I too once saw him as the guy with worldly wisdom gained when his plane (Sully Sullenberger flight) crashed into the Hudson. The guy with a number of noble sounding nonprofits like Road to Hire. It's tiring coming across two-faced people like this and the erosion of trust they cause in taking anyone at face value.
yccs27 5y ago
We already have enough fake "product comparison" websites, but I guess trade magazines now also have to peddle the crap from the highest bidder.
- jon-wood 5y ago
  Trade magazines have always peddled crap from the highest bidder, that’s how they stay in business. Winners of their annual awards are at least partially picked based on willingness to pay a substantial fee.
deleted 5y ago
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1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
If I am not mistaken they own Metacritic.
- deergomoo 5y ago
  Yeah, last year they bought all the CNET group stuff, which included all the CBS Interactive gaming stuff—Metacritic, Gamespot, GameFAQs, Giant Bomb etc.
chrischen 5y ago
“ More troublingly, some reporters at The Points Guy, which also covers the travel industry in general (it has been a comprehensive source for information on where vaccinated Americans can travel), have complained that the new owners have eroded the already rickety wall between the site’s service journalism and the credit card sales that fund it. Red Ventures is “all about profit maximization,” said JT Genter, who left the site more than a year ago. He and other Points Guy writers said they hadn’t been pushed to publish stories they found dubious — indeed, the site has occasionally offered carefully critical coverage of Chase and American Express, its dominant business partners.” Well there goes that resource for me.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > Well there goes that resource for me. I assume almost all information outside of forums with high barriers to entry are being gamed by marketing, and I assume as days go on, more and more forums will succumb. The rapid access to high signal to noise ratio information was nice while it lasted.
- cik 5y ago
  Why just that one? The thing is the vast (vast, vast) majority of blogs are all about profit maximization. I view reading any of this rubbish as simply advertainment and refrain from it. At least they're honest about it. Hell the New York Times engages in this and pretends it's just a newpaper - it's called the Best Seller list.
  - chrischen 5y ago
    It was an ex-employee who said those things so “they” being honest about it is a little generous.
- rootsudo 5y ago
  Same, yeah, did not know TPG was sold out, and I should've been suspicious when I kept seeing it on the side of Delta Planes. Damn that branding is strong, I need to verify ownership and how authoritative writing works on these blogs.
ausbah 5y ago
I interned at RV this post summer. On the tech side of things, I thought it was by far the best workplace culture out of the 3 places I've interned at. Super supportive team and coworkers, good tech stacks, very feedback oriented, etc. Funnily enough I didn't really know what they did either until reading this article, shows how separate tech is from many products
- quacked 5y ago
  I'm not necessarily anti-capitalist, but it's so frustrating that a huge percentage of the best talent, compensation, and tech stacks goes to industries that aren't doing anything actually useful (finance, fintech, adtech)*. There are so many organizations in farming, space travel, healthcare, etc. that would be very well served with receiving the best talent and having the best tech stacks/workplace culture, but when the result of a business model is "acquire a huge pile of money" (finance, fintech, adtech), you'll end up with the biggest pile of money with which to find the best and pay better.
  - runako 5y ago
    > farming, space travel, healthcare, etc. To be fair, there are huge piles of money in 2/3 of these as well. There is obviously the perception that tech labor cannot bring much value to these industries. (Or there are externalities: techies will work for less money if you let them work on space travel.)
    - pinkybanana 5y ago
      > (Or there are externalities: techies will work for less money if you let them work on space travel.) I guess the salaries are about the same in companies like SpaceX etc, but I would guess that working hours etc are not. Some engineer working for a bank will probably demand quite relaxed hours, negotiate low pressure tasks and have some holiday time with family, while with the same salary guy working for SpaceX will be busting his ass off and working weekends multiple times an year.
      - 5y ago
taurusnoises 5y ago
What jumped out at me (again with these business models) was this big tech swing toward the "company store" model: "the company’s South Carolina headquarters, a 180-acre campus with a cluster of modern buildings, a fire pit, a six-lane bowling alley, spin room, pickle ball courts and 264 residences for employees who choose to live where they work."
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Yeah, that sounds over the top, even compared to the benefits at some FAANG campuses. Personally, I'd much rather work in an urban/dense-suburban setting, where I can pick from multiple fitness facilities, housing options, etc. My current office has a "free" fitness room and a for-profit (consumer pays) cafe. Both are shared by multiple tenants in the building. Anything beyond that really starts to feel company-store and a bit dystopian.
- mitchellst 5y ago
  "Company store" vibes aside, it's a really practical way to graduate from college and relocate to your first job without a cash / debt crunch. Also, I'm an RV employee who works in our Austin office, and having visited our Charlotte HQ, it's pretty inconveniently located and far away from things. Seems like there aren't many great apartment options available nearby. We know how it looks and we joke about it sometimes, too. But really, it's practical and lowers the barrier to entry for people into their first job, so I actually think it's pretty cool.
deleted 5y ago
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throwawayrv 5y ago
I used to work for Red Ventures as an engineer. It was a very poorly run technical company with dubious business practices. I won't into details, but I would encourage any developers to look elsewhere if possible.
RVSux 5y ago
RV is an incredibly shitty company. I doubt this company will last. The middle management there sucks and the company has no vision beyond "lets just do what other sites are doing." Their entire business model is about not giving a shit about the consumer and just ramming and hiding bullshit deals down their throats. Talent wise, I have never worked with a group of assholes as delusional as the people who work there. Their technology sucks, and the people who are implementing are is extremely fucking dumb. They get distracted by shiny new technology all the time. This lead to all of their crap being this unmaintainable mess of crap powered by wordpress. And if you tried to make things better, everyone there had the biggest egos you can imagine so any criticisms were seen as an attack on their character. One time there was this code that was super insecure with SQL injections all over the place and remote code execution vulnerabilities. When this was pointed out, the director who wrote that code 20 years ago tried to get someone fired. No quite a place I would trust for all of my personal information btw. If you think you are the best, this place is for you. Shitty technology and shitty products that leave plenty of room to just coast with no real challenge. But if you are actually smart and want to work with real smart people, this place is not the place. One of the worst places I worked at in my career.
- kowlo 5y ago
  Would it be fair to say that you're not a fan of Red Ventures then? Your review prompted me to check them out on glassdoor, https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Red-Ventures-Reviews-E142090.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Red-Ventures-Reviews-E14..., and it doesn't seem too bad. Is glassdoor not a reliable source anymore?
  - RVSux 5y ago
    I don't work there anymore. I left that company for a literal 100% pay raise, their pay sucks that bad. I wouldn't really pay attention to the glassdoor, though the negative reviews are very close to my experience there. Lack of direction and poor management. Their technology honestly sucks. Its an insanely political place where if you don't toe the company line and say everything is peachy, they force you out. Like even pointing out serious weaknesses in applications or the absurdity of a project is seen as being a problem employee. There aren't very many smart engineers working there honestly. One of the good things there is that they put junior engineers in charge of projects, which lets them grow faster than most places, but the problem is that they put a bunch of junior engineers in charge of projects so there is noone who really understands software engineering and could actually mentor others. Like if a senior engineering resume came to me from RV, I would treat it as a Junior engineer. So fine place to start your career, terrible place to actually learn how to build good software.
jtoliver 5y ago
I interviewed at RV years ago for a backend position. During the interview I was told they didn't think I was sure if I wanted to work backend, frontend, or devops (I'm pretty sure devops wasn't the popular term back then...just can't remember what it was). They couldn't give me an explanation to why they thought that. Only thing I could think of is the different tech/prev positions I had on my resume. I guess I would of had more luck now since companies like full stack engineers(I don't know if that is still the trend). Also I too left the interview having no clue what they did. Glad I didn't get the position since I've know so many engineers complain about the place. Also I ended up finding a great job and coming up on my 10th year anniversary.
nkotov 5y ago
I worked at RV as a Platform Engineer for 20 months before starting my own company and getting into YC. On the culture side, I personally enjoyed it as almost everyone was around the same as me and all were young and hungry to put in more work. On the tech side, there was always a push to get more done in less time. Constantly, there were super tight deadlines which resulted in bad code and then you just move on to the next thing without maintaining it. This would cause a lot of tech debt that was to be addressed, "when we had time". Overall, I still think RV was an awesome place to get started in (especially in the NC/SC area), then go work somewhere else and boomerang back into a more senior position.
- cameron_b 5y ago
  Yes this, I heard several times that he "Business reviews" were a mini MBA course, but I think there was more value in watching the way leaders freed engineers to creatively solve a problem, and then reigned them in just across the line of an MVP, to focus on something new. It was very hard for me to understand the objectives at times, but it was clear eventually that there were diminishing returns in allowing the pursuit of engineering goals over business goals. I learned a lot, even from outside most of the interactions I observed. Cheers to you and your team Mr Kotov
edwardofclt 5y ago
As someone who left RV and came back, the negativity being spread because we found a niche and can play the game that Google has designed is hilarious. RV is a great company to work for. Like any organization, there are bad managers. Ultimately RV is what you make of it. Likewise, to those that post “RV has terrible employee reviews…” pay attention to most of the positions that are posting those bad reviews. Most of them are sales associates who work(ed) in the call center. I plan to be at RV for at least the next decade because of the opportunity I see afforded to me and the recognition that I am able to receive.
- philote 5y ago
  Just curious, what brought you to HN to create an account and comment on this post?
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    I would also like to welcome the new user to HN and thank them kindly for their first-hand account of the RV life.
  - drstewart 5y ago
    Just curious, why aren't you asking this question to the newly created RvSux account spamming this thread?
    - randallsquared 5y ago
      It seems pretty clear why someone named "RvSux" wants to post in this thread, doesn't it? :) Bad reviews are more easily motivated than good reviews, in general.
  - edwardofclt 5y ago
    I came to this site out of interest to see how people were responding only to find people hiding behind pseudonyms and bashing a company that does a shit ton of amazing tech. I’m half tempted to ask RvSucks what their real name is so I could give them a 360 review instead of hiding behind a keyboard. It’s just funny to me how much angst some people have because of THEIR bad experience when thousands would say they have a great one. I hope everyone the best. To each their own. But for me, at least for the foreseeable future, I’ll be at RV - building cool shit and being part of an amazing company.
chuckreynolds 5y ago
Could probably talk hours about this... but not here to shit on them at all. I was part of the acquisition of the CNET media group. RV contracted us from VCBS until the end of 2020. I was working with their teams as early as Oct/Nov but technically only "worked" for RV from Jan 1 to the end of June 2021. I know a lot of the writers/editors on our sites that came over in the acquisition were nervous because RV is very affiliate heavy; some got offers, some didn't, some bailed ship. In the short time I was there RV was mostly onboarding our various teams and figuring out who on their side could work best with each site/vertical and looking at current rev streams vs what they could contribute in. With the exception of one or two people, I thought the RV people I worked with were really nice and had good intentions with the sites they acquired. Socially I felt like they were welcoming (yeah, lots of rah ray stuff) and were more in a position to learn from me/us more so than looking to just "lay down the law". That was an initial concern within the VCBS teams but the process felt fine. Again I can only speak to the VCBS sites and our experience. There were internal problems with some of our sites before RV and they inherited some issues that will persist for a while... mentioning that as not all blame can be put on RV for some things, they'll work those out in time. My only real issue with RV is they had some people in rolls that I felt were too technical for them to perform well, which wasn't unknown but slow process to change. They hire from colleges in the SC/NC area a lot and train up to cycle them through the various sites. Nothing wrong with that strategy per-say but it's like the 'ol traditional agency model there; just hire fresh out of college kids and train them how you do things and then just have them continue to do that thing. Also a lot of people there have worked there for a long time... to some that may be a good sign, to others perhaps not; your call. Many may not know how the affiliate world works but that's the world they're in... not surprising to me but at least with our sites RV was interested in seeing what fit into the current site instead of just selling every possible thing on every possible site; which some of the comments here assume is/will happen, but not really how it was internally. It's a game they're pretty good at playing (as are others) and a more competitive game more and more every day. Just how things are these days. Search for "Best XXXX" anything and you'll see all the sites playing that game... lot more "news" sites the last couple years getting into that game. Also NYT bringing wirecutter into their domain instead of stand-alone. Play ball! Anyway, I don't have any ill will against RV and from what I experienced they were a pretty good company to work for given my roll and the situation I was in with the acquisition. Others certainly seem to have different experiences and that's fine. Can just speak to my time there only. And sure, I'm down to answer questions if you feel my limited insight could help.
gverrilla 5y ago
10 paragraphs with nothing.

167 points by SirLJ 5y ago

drannex 5y ago

Archive.is: https://archive.is/e3HN8 https://archive.is/e3HN8

beckler 5y ago

I have heard nothing but horror stories from those who worked at RV.

dw-im-here 5y ago
I got some pretty bad vibes from reading about their business model. We don't need more of this adtech shit
- tjfl 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm never calling a toll free number again. > For instance, they purchased more than a million toll-free phone numbers, and each visitor to their marketing website was shown a different one. So when prospective customers called, Red Ventures knew exactly what they had been looking at on the site, which gave the agents what they needed to make personalized sales pitches. This was a pretty high-tech form of digital surveillance in those more innocent times.
  - combyn8tor 5y ago
    Ethics aside, that is pretty clever.
    - rambambram 5y ago
      Cleverness aside, that's pretty unethical.
      - jstummbillig 5y ago
        How so? Most people wouldn't claim it's "unethical" to be addressed by a clerc in context of what they looked at in a store - only in that case you are actually required to interact.
        harry8 5y ago
        Oh do come the hell on. I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. I know what the clerk can only guess about me from my appearance. This is the clerk picking your damn pocket to find examine the contents of your wallet before returning it without your knowledge. You didn't agree to it. You now don't know what they know - but - and this is the real kicker - you probably think you do. Nobody ever gave informed consent for of this surveillance which has been a massive bait and switch. It does /not/ map to going into a store and having the clerk watch which product you look at before assisting you.
        jstummbillig 5y ago
        > I know what I look like in a shop. I know what the clerk knows about me. Just be clear, we are still exactly talking about a website owner tracking what somebody looked at and passing said information on by utilizing unique phone numbers in case they call? Because I can't help but feel like we escalated this thing a notch to vent on pent-up feelings about privacy in general (which we might actually agree on, but yeah, different scope)
        harry8 5y ago
        And you're completely aware of that and you know what the person selling to you knows about your actions just like you do in a shop? No? Ok then. It's one example of many of secret and deceptive surveillance. If you want to be angrier about worse ones please feel free... As an aside, there have been plenty of things from which we defend ourselves from salesmen. Both ethical and not dating from well before Berners-Lee thought "I can use markup to make a documentation system with this new-fangled tcp/ip thing on unix machines right here at CERN!" Some of us are naturally better equipped to defend against all the techniques than others. Arming con-people grifting from the gullible with additional personal information to use as secret ammunition along side psychological manipulation seems wrong to me. The continuum goes all the way from "no such thing as a bad sale" through all selling is wrong. That's where I sit on that continuum. YMMV.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      Manipulation and lies typically are clever, otherwise people wouldn't fall for them.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    They did that years ago. These days Google has a product that can dynamically insert a local area code number to link your call to web behavior. Presumably RV and others can do it too, and if it’s integrated server-side it can’t be blocked.
  - darrenf 5y ago
    That the numbers were toll free is entirely unrelated to the surveillance aspect. There are companies who provide regular local area numbers, with all kinds of analytics (number of answered calls, average length of time to answer, etc) plus recordings and lots more. See https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking https://www.iovox.co.uk/solutions/advanced-call-tracking for just one example.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      WATS lines (toll-free service numbers) provide additional caller information above and beyond a standard toll line, on the premise that it's the callee who's paying for the call. This has been a privacy concern for decades. Services have changed substantially and I'm no longer current on information (WATS itself has been retired), but no, a toll-free call is not the same as a standard POTS / direct-dialed toll number, AFAIU. That's above and beyond the per-user or per-source tracking accomplished here. Note that similar schemes can be run via postal mail through specific P.O. Box or department routing addresses.
  - cgarvis 5y ago
    They own 5% of all phone numbers in order to pull this off.
kuyan 5y ago
Wow, no kidding. Never heard of them before but the sentiment on /r/Charlotte is pretty visceral. https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.com%2Fr%2FCharlotte https://www.google.com/search?q=red+ventures+site%3Areddit.c...
- drstewart 5y ago
  The sentiment on reddit for everything is visceral. Very bitter place.
  - IggleSniggle 5y ago
    It really depends on the subreddit.
- tvanantwerp 5y ago
  Oof. Makes me glad my interviews with them didn't go very far.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    I did tech training years ago, and the company I contracted for had me interview with some of their team to discuss customized on-site training. I think I got the call because I was one of the closest people to their SC office, and would have been able to do multiple on-site weeks without much issue. But... someone on the call didn't like my description of classes (like object/class stuff), from what I remember - disagreed with both some of the material and some of what I'd said about classes. FWIR, he didn't like them at all, and thought classes were "too much overhead" or something along those lines. I'd indicated that we could customize the material to focus on whatever they wanted to focus on. They were onboarding something like... 10-15 developers every other week, and this would have been a "crash course"-style "everyone learn the same thing to get started" - a combination of "our internal processes" but also "industry standard stuff" from an outside company. We didn't get the gig, and I think they just settled on "in house only", IIRC. This was probably... 2009? Knowing they were adding ~20 developers per month was already an indication they were growing organically pretty fast (imo).

shapefrog 5y ago

This is some solid client journalism.

cameron_b 5y ago
Yea the "Why" here is murky.

nickreese 5y ago

RedVentures is pretty much the 1000lb gorilla in SEO lead gen. They also have a pretty large patent library and aren't afraid to use it. This includes a patent on zip code search which our last startup was on the receiving end of an infringement claim.[1] If you are a reporter or investigative journalist I'd encourage you to do some poking around into the business model behind APlaceForMom.com and the FTC action to spin off Caring.com and the overall effect on the nursing home industry. I can go on a major rant about RV, their moves to rollup the majority of the lead gen industry but due to prior legal interactions with them I'll refrain from painting a target on my back any further than I have. --- [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140149249A1/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140149249A1/

athrowaway3z 5y ago
I remember reading some piece of policy document that stated offhandedly in its introduction as a matter of fact something like "Patents allow us to foster innovation and are a benefit to society". I can only imagine that businesses are going to setup somewhere outside the US. Not for tax reasons, but simply to avoid the exposure to the minefield of patent.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  If you do business in the US, a US court can compel you to stop doing so, even if you're not there.
  - staticautomatic 5y ago
    Except that these days they almost never do that.
    - yccs27 5y ago
      With patent claims up to billions of dollars, "they likely won't enforce it" isn't good enough for most serious companies.

dmitriid 5y ago

So. I read the entire article and still have no idea what Red Ventures does. I do know that I was sold Mr. Elias as modern-day Mr. Rogers for all the praise lavished on him.

weird-eye-issue 5y ago
They build and acquire websites that make money through ads and affiliate commissions. I have a digital media startup so it was more clear to me
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Thank you for clarification!
cgarvis 5y ago
Started out as a DirectTV reseller!
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space_rock 5y ago
Patient trolls that buy ads in the nytimes? Know nothing about them but that's my guess
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  This article was pretty critical, not sure why you're saying they paid for it.
heymijo 5y ago
> I was sold Mr. Elias as modern-day Mr. Rogers for all the praise lavished on him. Saint in the streets, abusive asshole in the office. I too once saw him as the guy with worldly wisdom gained when his plane (Sully Sullenberger flight) crashed into the Hudson. The guy with a number of noble sounding nonprofits like Road to Hire. It's tiring coming across two-faced people like this and the erosion of trust they cause in taking anyone at face value.

yccs27 5y ago

We already have enough fake "product comparison" websites, but I guess trade magazines now also have to peddle the crap from the highest bidder.

jon-wood 5y ago
Trade magazines have always peddled crap from the highest bidder, that’s how they stay in business. Winners of their annual awards are at least partially picked based on willingness to pay a substantial fee.

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1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

If I am not mistaken they own Metacritic.

deergomoo 5y ago
Yeah, last year they bought all the CNET group stuff, which included all the CBS Interactive gaming stuff—Metacritic, Gamespot, GameFAQs, Giant Bomb etc.

chrischen 5y ago

“ More troublingly, some reporters at The Points Guy, which also covers the travel industry in general (it has been a comprehensive source for information on where vaccinated Americans can travel), have complained that the new owners have eroded the already rickety wall between the site’s service journalism and the credit card sales that fund it. Red Ventures is “all about profit maximization,” said JT Genter, who left the site more than a year ago. He and other Points Guy writers said they hadn’t been pushed to publish stories they found dubious — indeed, the site has occasionally offered carefully critical coverage of Chase and American Express, its dominant business partners.” Well there goes that resource for me.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Well there goes that resource for me. I assume almost all information outside of forums with high barriers to entry are being gamed by marketing, and I assume as days go on, more and more forums will succumb. The rapid access to high signal to noise ratio information was nice while it lasted.
cik 5y ago
Why just that one? The thing is the vast (vast, vast) majority of blogs are all about profit maximization. I view reading any of this rubbish as simply advertainment and refrain from it. At least they're honest about it. Hell the New York Times engages in this and pretends it's just a newpaper - it's called the Best Seller list.
- chrischen 5y ago
  It was an ex-employee who said those things so “they” being honest about it is a little generous.
rootsudo 5y ago
Same, yeah, did not know TPG was sold out, and I should've been suspicious when I kept seeing it on the side of Delta Planes. Damn that branding is strong, I need to verify ownership and how authoritative writing works on these blogs.

ausbah 5y ago

I interned at RV this post summer. On the tech side of things, I thought it was by far the best workplace culture out of the 3 places I've interned at. Super supportive team and coworkers, good tech stacks, very feedback oriented, etc. Funnily enough I didn't really know what they did either until reading this article, shows how separate tech is from many products

quacked 5y ago
I'm not necessarily anti-capitalist, but it's so frustrating that a huge percentage of the best talent, compensation, and tech stacks goes to industries that aren't doing anything actually useful (finance, fintech, adtech)*. There are so many organizations in farming, space travel, healthcare, etc. that would be very well served with receiving the best talent and having the best tech stacks/workplace culture, but when the result of a business model is "acquire a huge pile of money" (finance, fintech, adtech), you'll end up with the biggest pile of money with which to find the best and pay better.
- runako 5y ago
  > farming, space travel, healthcare, etc. To be fair, there are huge piles of money in 2/3 of these as well. There is obviously the perception that tech labor cannot bring much value to these industries. (Or there are externalities: techies will work for less money if you let them work on space travel.)
  - pinkybanana 5y ago
    > (Or there are externalities: techies will work for less money if you let them work on space travel.) I guess the salaries are about the same in companies like SpaceX etc, but I would guess that working hours etc are not. Some engineer working for a bank will probably demand quite relaxed hours, negotiate low pressure tasks and have some holiday time with family, while with the same salary guy working for SpaceX will be busting his ass off and working weekends multiple times an year.
    - 5y ago

taurusnoises 5y ago

What jumped out at me (again with these business models) was this big tech swing toward the "company store" model: "the company’s South Carolina headquarters, a 180-acre campus with a cluster of modern buildings, a fire pit, a six-lane bowling alley, spin room, pickle ball courts and 264 residences for employees who choose to live where they work."

alistairSH 5y ago
Yeah, that sounds over the top, even compared to the benefits at some FAANG campuses. Personally, I'd much rather work in an urban/dense-suburban setting, where I can pick from multiple fitness facilities, housing options, etc. My current office has a "free" fitness room and a for-profit (consumer pays) cafe. Both are shared by multiple tenants in the building. Anything beyond that really starts to feel company-store and a bit dystopian.
mitchellst 5y ago
"Company store" vibes aside, it's a really practical way to graduate from college and relocate to your first job without a cash / debt crunch. Also, I'm an RV employee who works in our Austin office, and having visited our Charlotte HQ, it's pretty inconveniently located and far away from things. Seems like there aren't many great apartment options available nearby. We know how it looks and we joke about it sometimes, too. But really, it's practical and lowers the barrier to entry for people into their first job, so I actually think it's pretty cool.

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throwawayrv 5y ago

I used to work for Red Ventures as an engineer. It was a very poorly run technical company with dubious business practices. I won't into details, but I would encourage any developers to look elsewhere if possible.

RVSux 5y ago

RV is an incredibly shitty company. I doubt this company will last. The middle management there sucks and the company has no vision beyond "lets just do what other sites are doing." Their entire business model is about not giving a shit about the consumer and just ramming and hiding bullshit deals down their throats. Talent wise, I have never worked with a group of assholes as delusional as the people who work there. Their technology sucks, and the people who are implementing are is extremely fucking dumb. They get distracted by shiny new technology all the time. This lead to all of their crap being this unmaintainable mess of crap powered by wordpress. And if you tried to make things better, everyone there had the biggest egos you can imagine so any criticisms were seen as an attack on their character. One time there was this code that was super insecure with SQL injections all over the place and remote code execution vulnerabilities. When this was pointed out, the director who wrote that code 20 years ago tried to get someone fired. No quite a place I would trust for all of my personal information btw. If you think you are the best, this place is for you. Shitty technology and shitty products that leave plenty of room to just coast with no real challenge. But if you are actually smart and want to work with real smart people, this place is not the place. One of the worst places I worked at in my career.

kowlo 5y ago
Would it be fair to say that you're not a fan of Red Ventures then? Your review prompted me to check them out on glassdoor, https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Red-Ventures-Reviews-E142090.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Red-Ventures-Reviews-E14..., and it doesn't seem too bad. Is glassdoor not a reliable source anymore?
- RVSux 5y ago
  I don't work there anymore. I left that company for a literal 100% pay raise, their pay sucks that bad. I wouldn't really pay attention to the glassdoor, though the negative reviews are very close to my experience there. Lack of direction and poor management. Their technology honestly sucks. Its an insanely political place where if you don't toe the company line and say everything is peachy, they force you out. Like even pointing out serious weaknesses in applications or the absurdity of a project is seen as being a problem employee. There aren't very many smart engineers working there honestly. One of the good things there is that they put junior engineers in charge of projects, which lets them grow faster than most places, but the problem is that they put a bunch of junior engineers in charge of projects so there is noone who really understands software engineering and could actually mentor others. Like if a senior engineering resume came to me from RV, I would treat it as a Junior engineer. So fine place to start your career, terrible place to actually learn how to build good software.

jtoliver 5y ago

I interviewed at RV years ago for a backend position. During the interview I was told they didn't think I was sure if I wanted to work backend, frontend, or devops (I'm pretty sure devops wasn't the popular term back then...just can't remember what it was). They couldn't give me an explanation to why they thought that. Only thing I could think of is the different tech/prev positions I had on my resume. I guess I would of had more luck now since companies like full stack engineers(I don't know if that is still the trend). Also I too left the interview having no clue what they did. Glad I didn't get the position since I've know so many engineers complain about the place. Also I ended up finding a great job and coming up on my 10th year anniversary.

nkotov 5y ago

I worked at RV as a Platform Engineer for 20 months before starting my own company and getting into YC. On the culture side, I personally enjoyed it as almost everyone was around the same as me and all were young and hungry to put in more work. On the tech side, there was always a push to get more done in less time. Constantly, there were super tight deadlines which resulted in bad code and then you just move on to the next thing without maintaining it. This would cause a lot of tech debt that was to be addressed, "when we had time". Overall, I still think RV was an awesome place to get started in (especially in the NC/SC area), then go work somewhere else and boomerang back into a more senior position.

cameron_b 5y ago
Yes this, I heard several times that he "Business reviews" were a mini MBA course, but I think there was more value in watching the way leaders freed engineers to creatively solve a problem, and then reigned them in just across the line of an MVP, to focus on something new. It was very hard for me to understand the objectives at times, but it was clear eventually that there were diminishing returns in allowing the pursuit of engineering goals over business goals. I learned a lot, even from outside most of the interactions I observed. Cheers to you and your team Mr Kotov

edwardofclt 5y ago

As someone who left RV and came back, the negativity being spread because we found a niche and can play the game that Google has designed is hilarious. RV is a great company to work for. Like any organization, there are bad managers. Ultimately RV is what you make of it. Likewise, to those that post “RV has terrible employee reviews…” pay attention to most of the positions that are posting those bad reviews. Most of them are sales associates who work(ed) in the call center. I plan to be at RV for at least the next decade because of the opportunity I see afforded to me and the recognition that I am able to receive.

philote 5y ago
Just curious, what brought you to HN to create an account and comment on this post?
- shapefrog 5y ago
  I would also like to welcome the new user to HN and thank them kindly for their first-hand account of the RV life.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Just curious, why aren't you asking this question to the newly created RvSux account spamming this thread?
  - randallsquared 5y ago
    It seems pretty clear why someone named "RvSux" wants to post in this thread, doesn't it? :) Bad reviews are more easily motivated than good reviews, in general.
- edwardofclt 5y ago
  I came to this site out of interest to see how people were responding only to find people hiding behind pseudonyms and bashing a company that does a shit ton of amazing tech. I’m half tempted to ask RvSucks what their real name is so I could give them a 360 review instead of hiding behind a keyboard. It’s just funny to me how much angst some people have because of THEIR bad experience when thousands would say they have a great one. I hope everyone the best. To each their own. But for me, at least for the foreseeable future, I’ll be at RV - building cool shit and being part of an amazing company.

chuckreynolds 5y ago

Could probably talk hours about this... but not here to shit on them at all. I was part of the acquisition of the CNET media group. RV contracted us from VCBS until the end of 2020. I was working with their teams as early as Oct/Nov but technically only "worked" for RV from Jan 1 to the end of June 2021. I know a lot of the writers/editors on our sites that came over in the acquisition were nervous because RV is very affiliate heavy; some got offers, some didn't, some bailed ship. In the short time I was there RV was mostly onboarding our various teams and figuring out who on their side could work best with each site/vertical and looking at current rev streams vs what they could contribute in. With the exception of one or two people, I thought the RV people I worked with were really nice and had good intentions with the sites they acquired. Socially I felt like they were welcoming (yeah, lots of rah ray stuff) and were more in a position to learn from me/us more so than looking to just "lay down the law". That was an initial concern within the VCBS teams but the process felt fine. Again I can only speak to the VCBS sites and our experience. There were internal problems with some of our sites before RV and they inherited some issues that will persist for a while... mentioning that as not all blame can be put on RV for some things, they'll work those out in time. My only real issue with RV is they had some people in rolls that I felt were too technical for them to perform well, which wasn't unknown but slow process to change. They hire from colleges in the SC/NC area a lot and train up to cycle them through the various sites. Nothing wrong with that strategy per-say but it's like the 'ol traditional agency model there; just hire fresh out of college kids and train them how you do things and then just have them continue to do that thing. Also a lot of people there have worked there for a long time... to some that may be a good sign, to others perhaps not; your call. Many may not know how the affiliate world works but that's the world they're in... not surprising to me but at least with our sites RV was interested in seeing what fit into the current site instead of just selling every possible thing on every possible site; which some of the comments here assume is/will happen, but not really how it was internally. It's a game they're pretty good at playing (as are others) and a more competitive game more and more every day. Just how things are these days. Search for "Best XXXX" anything and you'll see all the sites playing that game... lot more "news" sites the last couple years getting into that game. Also NYT bringing wirecutter into their domain instead of stand-alone. Play ball! Anyway, I don't have any ill will against RV and from what I experienced they were a pretty good company to work for given my roll and the situation I was in with the acquisition. Others certainly seem to have different experiences and that's fine. Can just speak to my time there only. And sure, I'm down to answer questions if you feel my limited insight could help.

gverrilla 5y ago

10 paragraphs with nothing.