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Where does the plastic in oceans come from?
- lallysingh 5y ago"Most of the world’s largest emitting rivers are in Asia, with some also in East Africa and the Caribbean. In the chart we see the ten largest contributors. This is shown as each river’s share of the global total. You can explore the data on the top 50 rivers using the +Add river button on the chart.6 Seven of the top ten rivers are in the Philippines. Two are in India, and one in Malaysia. The Pasig River in the Philippines alone accounts for 6.4% of global river plastics. This paints a very different picture to earlier studies where it was Asia’s largest rivers – the Yangtze, Xi, and Huangpu rivers in China, and Ganges in India – that were dominant."
- nomaxx117 5y agoThe massive concentration in the Philippines is one of the most interesting takeaways here. I ended up poking around for more details on this, and it looks like the causes relate to, among other things, a lack of proper waste disposal and an industry reliance on plastic sachets for food packaging. Sources: https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philippines-plastic-pollution-why-so-much-waste-ends-oceans https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip... https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sachet-economy-chokes-the-philippines-seas/ https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac... https://urban-links.org/insight/turning-the-tide-on-ocean-plastic-pollution-in-the-philippines/ https://urban-links.org/insight/turning-the-tide-on-ocean-pl...
- Mengkudulangsat 5y agoI met a company once that sells parking lot-sized incinerators [1]. The only market they managed to get traction was the Philippines. I guess proper waste disposal is difficult when you are spread around many islands like that. [1] https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/cover-story-trash-ash https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/cover-story-trash-ash
- nomaxx117 5y agoInteresting point regarding the incinerators! From what I've read, a lot of it has to do with systemic mismanagement of the situation from the various governments over the past few decades.
- manachar 5y agoWonder if this is connected to China ceasing to accept trash/recycling from the US. I really hate that recycling became essentially a for-profit shell game of shipping it somewhere else to be a problem rather than dealing with building the domestic infrastructure needed to correctly handle it (including not overselling recycling so we could get waste-to-energy plants as part of the mix).
- nomaxx117 5y agoIt could have some small connection, but I would probably guess (based of of general trends) that it has to do with some regions or cities not yet having adequate waste disposal systems.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoAre outsiders allowed to confirm the official numbers form China?
- contingencies 5y agoI live at the end of the Pearl River Delta and regularly cross it by boat and travel along the shoreline. There is not a great deal of surface-visible physical plastic trash floating out of the river. Especially additionally considering the huge number of people living here (~100M+ within 100km radius), it is very well collected and managed versus rivers in the developing world. None of that mud-mixed-with-plastic-refuse buildup you often see in, say, India, Thailand, or undredged canal systems.
- MengerSponge 5y agoIt's basically why China stopped accepting "recycling" (aka trash): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword
- t0rt01se 5y agoAs long as we're discussing the source of this pollution by nation there will never be a solution.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sschueller 5y agoNorth America is 4.5%. That is just shameful and inexcusable for a non 3rd world country. The US needs to get their trash disposal in check and I hope the infrastructure bill has something in it to get away from open landfills to more modern methods such as cleanly incinerating garbage. Banning plastic bags at the grocery store and straws at the bar is also not going to solve this issue.
- Overton-Window 5y agoThe US alone is 4.25% of world population: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population... Focusing on curbing emissions regionally is as futile as instating a "no peeing" section of the pool.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- lisper 5y agoIt is far from obvious whether the best strategy is for the U.S. to clean up its 4.5% contribution, or to use those same resources to help the Philippines clean up their vastly larger share.
- pengaru 5y agowhy are they mutually exclusive?
- lisper 5y agoBecause even the U.S. does not have infinite resources.
- pengaru 5y agoWhy does it require infinite resources? Edit: I'm being glib, but seriously, this isn't necessarily a resource-intensive issue for the US to engage in. This kind of thing should be achievable purely through diplomacy. Surely there are some attractive incentives a nation like the US can bring to the table in the interests of compelling a nation like the Philippines to clean up its act, you know, like bringing a Nike executive to the meeting.
- megablast 5y agoThe number one cause of micro-plastic pollution near waterways is from car tires. Just another reason cars are such a detriment to our society.
- shadilay 5y agoBuses and bicycles do not have tires?
- Ndymium 5y agoPer passenger, buses have far fewer tires. Bicycle tires wear down slower than car tires, and are smaller so there is less to wear anyway.
- Robotbeat 5y agoPossibly you’re correct about bikes, but I suspect buses and cars have similar tire wear per passenger mile, with only a slight advantage for buses. Also, rubber biodegrades. Brake dust and rail dust are also concerns.
- ric2b 5y ago> but I suspect buses and cars have similar tire wear per passenger mile, with only a slight advantage for buses. Why do you suspect that? The amount of vehicle weight per passenger that those tires have to carry is significantly higher in a car than a bus.
- himinlomax 5y agoThe wear and tear is a function of weight and speed. It's also not linear.
- akomtu 5y agoCars are also the backbone of our society.
- nomaxx117 5y agoAs the article discusses, the main contributing factor is a lack of effective waste disposal systems, almost entirely in low and middle income countries. The US, for example contributes .25% of global ocean plastic emissions (not the 4.5% from all of NA, most of which is from Central America and the Caribbean). High income countries can help low income countries develop these systems through grants and subsidies.
- bufferoverflow 5y agoThere are also bad cultures that find it acceptable to just throw any trash into a river.
- wombatmobile 5y ago> There are also bad cultures that find it acceptable to just throw any trash into a river. For thousands of years, Philippines culture was responsible for zero plastic waste being dumped into river and ocean systems. Food was grown organically, packaged and transported sustainably, and waste was managed to preserve ocean and river ecosystems. What changed? > The United States exercised formal colonial rule over the Philippines, its largest overseas colony, between 1899 and 1946. American economic and strategic interests in Asia and the Pacific were increasing in the late 1890s in the wake of an industrial depression and in the face of global, interimperial competition. https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/united-states-colonial-rule-philippines https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-...
- goatlover 5y agoWhat does something that ended 75 years ago have to do with the culture today of dumping trash in rivers? I knew someone was going to find a way to blame the US.
- wombatmobile 5y ago> I knew someone was going to find a way to blame the US. US corporations deserve great credit for inventing plastics which have enabled foods and beverages to be transported conveniently all over the world. Fortunately for US corporations, this credit has already been realised through the enormous revenues that have accrued to the patent holders and trading companies which have been richly rewarded for the invention and production of plastics.
- dfee 5y agoThe article’s title is “Where does the plastic in our oceans come from?”, and HN lists it as “Ocean Plastic Emissions by Country”. Indeed, one section is titled “Which countries emit the most plastic to the ocean?”. Don’t let any of that fool you. We never actually get a breakdown of contribution by country in the extensive article. I’m not sure why.
- nomaxx117 5y agoThe map interactive does provide that information if you roll over the countries.
- burlesona 5y agoBecause the article is considered a “summary” of the raw data you can explore yourself, including the breakdown for each country.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y agoI don't think anyone is trying to fool you. The data is there for you to look at if you're interested.
- pyaamb 5y agoThe Ocean Cleanup Project is doing good work and could probably use some scaling up https://theoceancleanup.com/updates/in-search-of-the-rivers-that-carry-plastic-into-the-ocean/ https://theoceancleanup.com/updates/in-search-of-the-rivers-...
- shadilay 5y agoIt is infinitely more efficient to just not dump plastic in the ocean in the first place than it is pick it out of the ocean.
- pyaamb 5y agoIndeed
- danieldbird 5y ago..or sifting it from the river before it enters the ocean. Is it the incentive for recycling is big enough for plastic to be recycled immediately after use, or no recycling centres. I remember recycling bottles and cans as a child for 5c each. This sounds like something that could be solved by somebody with enough capital investing in a recycling system / plants there. Bill / Elon / Jeff? Seems an extremely important issue we get solved, here on earth...
- shadilay 5y agoThere is no such thing as plastic recycling as there is no use for second hand plastics. The best thing you can do is put it in a landfill. The Romans had landfills, there's no excuse for countries in the modern day that just toss trash in the river.
- merpnderp 5y agoWhich is why all these cleanup projects and bag bans are just silly unserious people. Anyone who actually cared should be pushing for improved waste management in the source countries. If it’s aid grants for better trash service or threats of tariffs for not improving things or whatever, but banning straws or picking up plastic in the ocean strikes as nothing but narcissistic public preening.
- screye 5y agoWow, growing up in India I always knew that the Mithi Nadi (ulhas) was incredibly polluted and trash filled. But, to see it at rank 3 is really eye opening. There have been efforts over the last few decades to clean it up. But, Mumbai slums are situated on the river, and dump everything and anything into it. It would be nice to know if the Ulhas is mostly polluted with plastic upstream or at the mouth near Mumbai.
- nomaxx117 5y agoYou might be able to get answers in the "Figures and Data" tab of this page: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/18/eaaz5803 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/18/eaaz5803
- nsizx 5y agoAnd to think that the EU made it mandatory for plastic bags to cost money, gravely inconveniencing every shopper... And my country only amounts to 0.02% of plastic waste in the ocean.
- thepasswordis 5y agoI don’t know that I would consider not having a plastic bag a “grave” inconvenience.
- Majestic121 5y agoGravely inconveniencing, really? Adding 40 cents to your bill if you forgot your shopping bag is a grave inconvenience?
- nsizx 5y agoActually yes, since some shops now only have paper bags which are expensive and break just by looking at them. If you forget to bring a bag from home you're in trouble, especially if your groceries are heavy and you're far from home - the bags are guaranteed to break. (This is Europe, so you're walking back, obviously)
- ginko 5y agoPaper bags are actually sturdier than plastic bags from my experience.
- curmudgeon22 5y agoHandles are the culprit for paper bags I’ve used.
- redisman 5y agoI'm glad your life is so easy that this is riling you up
- qayxc 5y ago
- openforce 5y agoI had read somewhere that a lot of waste(supposedly recyclable) from the US ends up in these poorer asian countries. These countries that actually don't have a lot invested in high efficient recycling systems. But this article just shows the data where the water gets polluted from mismanaged waste. But not where this plastic comes from? I suppose it's not the full story then?
- nomaxx117 5y agoI've been reading up on this stuff for a while. Most of the waste is actually single use plastics from products consumed in the emitting countries, that are disposed of improperly. For example, the Philippines has an issue with sachets. Sources: https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sachet-economy-chokes-the-philippines-seas/ https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/plastic-trash-from-the-sac... https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philippines-plastic-pollution-why-so-much-waste-ends-oceans https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/health/article/2168819/philip...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- splitstud 5y agoJust look at the article. This article states that a large percentage of the waste comes from nets lines and ropes. That is absurd on the face of it. This isn't a fact-based exercise.
- BurningFrog 5y agoThis quantifies the nonsense of the San Francisco plastic straw ban, which was motivated by stopping plastic ocean emissions. And I still can't get a non melting straw.
- ioseph 5y agoBYO metal or bamboo straw?
- BurningFrog 5y agoYou can, but you have to take them home and wash them.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- gruez 5y ago>BYO 1. I'm a man so I don't have a purse to put it in, thereby making carrying it around a pain 2. cleaning it probably uses more resources than making a new straw and disposing of it
- danbolt 5y agoI think the only true solution for this problem is normalizing shoulder bags for men. Perks include: 1) Space for a straw or extra objects but conveniently small enough for day-to-day activities 2) A good range of available colours and tones to match formality 3) Useful for holding travel documentation and other objects at the airport 4) Fun couples activities with matching bags
- colechristensen 5y agoHow many straws do you have to not use to make up for the amount of plastic in a polyester man purse? Do you expect that number to be surpassed before the purse is discarded and replaced?
- spikels 5y agoI guess those plastic straw bans in the US and Europe won't be solving plastic pollution in oceans.
- Zenst 5y agoAlas much plastic gets bundled up as `recycling` and brought up cheap and hands washed and pats on the back. Sadly that then goes onto some landfill in Africa or Asia and tada...blame shifted and politicians gets to say how well they are tackling things by being seen to be doing things. Plastic recycling from Europe is being dumped in Asian waters - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200630103603.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200630103603.h...
- splitstud 5y agoSo various political entities mandate recycling, but do not create a payment mechanism. Then they pay Asian countries to get it off the books.
- austinheap 5y agoNo one claimed it would be “solving plastic pollution in oceans.” Fairly disingenuous statement.
- nikkinana 5y agoOh shit, china bad, this story is gonna get booted pronto! Who let this in????
- lucasyvas 5y agoIs this not misleading? I thought that most countries offload their plastic waste to regions in Asia (paying them to take it), so of course Asia comes off looking as the largest emitter.
- sparky_z 5y agoYou're assuming that the plastic that gets sold is the same plastic that ends up in the rivers. Do we know that's the case? And if so, how does it go from being "in the system" to being discarded into the environment? Why would they pay money for it, just to throw it in a river?
- lucasyvas 5y agoI wasn't trying to make an assumption - the report just didn't read how I expected. And I'm not absolving them of responsibility, but the richest countries pay to offload plastic on them knowing pretty well there is no way to get rid of it besides tossing it. Those Asian regions that burn it have awful air quality issues. Should these regions refuse money for our plastic? Probably - but this paints an incomplete picture.
- wombatmobile 5y agoWhere Will Your Plastic Trash Go Now That China Doesn't Want It? https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/702501726/where-will-your-plastic-trash-go-now-that-china-doesnt-want-it https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/7025017... Plastic garbage from Trader Joe's and an AARP card are peeking out of hillocks of plastic trash piling up in Indonesia. It's a sign of a new global quandary: What should wealthy countries do with their plastic waste now that China no longer is buying it?
- ectopod 5y agoAsian importers pay for containers of clean, recyclable waste from the UK. When it arrives they find they've got a container full of general household waste, which is of no use for anything. I don't know how common this is but there have been several UK companies prosecuted for it. I've also seen stories where British reporters have gone to Asia and documented piles of obviously British waste in local dumps. These stories crop up in the British media quite frequently.
- wombatmobile 5y ago> To tackle plastic pollution we need to know where it’s coming from So, where is it coming from? TFA examined the last step - from river to ocean. But what is the source of all this plastic? Is it soda bottles, single use plastic bags, shrink wrap, structural plastic? > It is estimated that 81% of ocean plastics come from Asian rivers. The Philippines alone contribute around one-third of the global total. That's a start. We are becoming more informed. What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Asia? What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in USA? What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured in Europe? What percentage of the ocean plastics are manufactured by the top 5 global food corporations? The value of these questions is not to shift blame. It is to understand the system so we can target fixes. The most informative question wasn't even raised in TFA. Who profits from plastic waste?
- nomaxx117 5y agoI would argue that these are the wrong questions. As this article, and those papers referenced by the article point out, this has to do overwhelmingly with inadequate waste disposal systems. More interesting questions for solving the issue might be: What types of items end up in the oceans? Are they dumped legally or illegally? What are the reasons that certain countries don't have the infrastructure in place to dispose of waste? How can wealthier countries do their part in supporting countries who need to develop better waste management infrastructure? I think that it is better to ask questions that lead us directly towards solutions that are actionable. The data strongly suggests that ineffective or nonexistent waste management is the root cause, so I think we should direct our questions towards solving that issue.
- wombatmobile 5y ago> I think that it is better to ask questions that lead us directly towards solutions that are actionable. That will require money. Who profits from producing the plastic in the first place? The reason that question addresses your point is that a viable systemic fix would involve repurposing a percentage of the revenue towards waste management.
- deleted 5y ago
- joelbondurant 5y agoIf they include plastics from bombs, USA is #1.
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoThey estimate that a 1000 rivers contribute 80% of the _riverine_ plastic pollution. But how much of the total in the oceans is riverine versus 'oceanic'? What is the total contribution of maritime activity (freight, fishing, cruises, recreational, military) to a non-riverine/oceanic plastic?
- nomaxx117 5y agoFrom what I've seen, the only oceanic activities that add much is fishing, which seems to be currently estimated to produce around 20% of global oceanic plastic waste. I believe the link may have mentioned this. If not, some of the references at the bottom will.
- DoingIsLearning 5y agoI looked through the interactive data and the paper this references as a source, it always refers to contributions as a percentage of total 'riverine' plastic. But never quantifies how much it is in relation to the remaining non-riverine contributions?
- nomaxx117 5y agoIF you want the raw numbers, check out the references at the bottom, particularly the "top" reference, published in 2021, which is where the raw data is.
- hansoolo 5y agoIt's just so easy: first world countries just have that "awesome" recycling systems. Their plastic just ends on ships full of plastic waste. China refuses to accept it, so we sell it it to other countries in Asia, which seemingly can't handle it anymore and just dumps it into the ocean. End.
- nomaxx117 5y agoThat isn't the case based on the data. Fishing nets aside (which are definitely from predominately Chinese-owned fleets), much of this is actually not from the recycling systems, but is instead single use plastics, especially since China stopped accepting recycling from overseas.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jozvolskyef 5y agoIf by "first world" you mean the EU, they now prohibit the export of plastic waste outside OECD[1]. [1]: https://ec.europa.eu/environment/news/plastic-waste-shipments-new-eu-rules-importing-and-exporting-plastic-waste-2020-12-22_en https://ec.europa.eu/environment/news/plastic-waste-shipment...
- neolog 5y agoMaybe they just ship it to USA which ships it to poor countries?
- Shadonototro 5y agothat's not true EU have great recycling industry, none of the waste leave the continent, it's all reused or sold(to be reused), there is no waste at all
- aaron695 5y agoIf you ever need more evidence the Environmental Industrial Complex is evil. You can already see the pre-planed patterns being used to make sure blame is placed back on you in the comments. Along with the pre existing day in day out controls of banning plastic things in your lives, the consistent control of you is important. I really liked Reddit's trash bag meme in the end. It actually seemed to get a wider reach than I would have expected. Developing countries do also have status, it might be Versace but it also can be clean waterways, you just need to tie it back to locals who in turn can push governance.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- soheil 5y agoIf we want to create a chart by country that is actually fair we need to normalize for GDP per capita and population. This is a very crude way to single out countries based on incomplete data. I'd like to see the list of worst offender countries that can do something about preventing plastic pollution, but aren't doing as much. How is it helpful to know that India is one of the highest polluting countries when half a billion people live in abject poverty?
- nomaxx117 5y agoI think that per-capita normalization in particular is interesting. I have a spreadsheet where I did that, and the Philippines stands out even more then, as does Brazil. GDP is a bad normalization factor here, as the trend is weird. High income countries have very low emissions in general. Low income countries sometimes have high per capita emissions, but not usually. Middle income countries are the most likely to be high emitters, as they are most likely to be consuming large amounts of plastic without having developed the infrastructure to process the waste.
- trainsplanes 5y agoAre you proposing some inverse scale or what? When it comes to emissions, poor countries are generally way lower than wealthy countries per capita. If we readjusted these charts to be plastic pollution per dollar, the Philippines would be several orders of magnitude higher than anywhere in the west.
- soheil 5y agoNo, use this formula: GDP x pollution / population
- contingencies 5y agoI recently visited some manufacturers of high velocity polymer production lines. Their major markets were all Southeast Asia. That equipment should be outlawed. Regulation has to take the lead.
- nomaxx117 5y agoNot familiar with that, and Google isn't being helpful. What are they exactly?
- smohnot 5y agoGreat video on the topic (& silliness of the plastic straw ban) https://youtu.be/ysGRZ1nRZQ4 https://youtu.be/ysGRZ1nRZQ4