7 ms·

Moderna Vaccine Significantly More Effective Against Delta Variant Than Pfizer

113 points by mitchbob 5y ago

egaerg 5y ago
muh vaccine!!! shove it up my ass - ohhh yeh, I like that vaccine up my ass - it feels so good.
giantg2 5y ago
And Novavax was just found to be 90% effective across a range of variants. Too bad they didn't have a big partner to speed their trials along.
- ahurmazda 5y ago
  I was really hopeful for Novavax. But recent news about manufacturing woes and US pulling funding is disappointing. The preliminary results looked great. Combined with low rate of side-effects and higher storage temp (2-8 C), it could have been a good 2nd (or 3rd) choice for the developing world. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/us-clinical-trial-results-show-novavax-vaccine-safe-prevents-covid-19 https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/us-clinical-tr...
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I would have loved a protein based option. I think there haven't been enough questions around the mRNA vaccine longterm potential impact. There are woefully few studies exploring the potential for autoimmune conditions. I find this especially troubling when using ones own cells to develop the spike protein. Normally the immune system codes off multiple proteins of the cell, but this would be a problem when the other cell proteins are legitimate. Basically, there are still more questions than answers in my mind. I just hope the national countermeasure compensation fund will be able to handle any potential fallout.
    - Exmoor 5y ago
      Keep in mind, every single cold and flu you've ever had has used the same mRNA pathway to duplicate itself. Anyone reading this has had this happen in their body literally billions of times and will have it happen billions more. Is it just the single-protein aspect of it (compared to a full virus) that bothers you?
      - giantg2 5y ago
        It's a little different, right? So J&J uses modified adenovirus which acts more similarly to real life, in that it's using a DNA transcription process (that's where they think some error occur and causes clotting/stroke issues). Although they are also just making a protein that displays on the outside of the cell. A real virus will create copies of itself via a similar method. These copies are inside of the cell and later leave it. So it's mostly a concern that in one way we are targeting a spike protein on out own cell, but normally a virus would be complete and not be displayed as part of the cell wall. That's where I wonder if some people's immune system might code off of other normal proteins in addition to the spike. I would have thought there would at least have been a study about autoimmune antibody levels. I found one about severe covid patients having a higher likelihood of having them, but I couldn't find a study looking at the vaccines. It's pretty frustrating that I'm being downvoted for asking what I think is a legitimate question, one that apparently hasn't been looked into (since I can't find any study and the downvoters haven't provided one either).
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  I think one of the biggest failings in how we handled COVID is lack of challenge trials. We could have had all the vaccines approved months earlier. I'd have been thrilled to volunteer for a challenge trial and still would to accelerate approval of booster shots or mixes of vaccines. Every day we can get any approval sooner is so many lives saved!
standardUser 5y ago
This does mesh with the data out of Israel showing a reduced efficacy in the Pfizer vaccine against Delta. That data was considered an outlier (there were also some specific criticisms that I have since forgotten), but now perhaps that study will be taken more seriously. Israel's solution was to approve a third shot for high risk individuals. Approvals for third shots should be happening in the US very soon too.
- jimsimmons 5y ago
  If Pfizer wore off in 6-8 months what does it say about the next year? A big chunk of the population would have lost a sizable chunk of immunity no? Are we really confident that global vaccination would be high at that point? I really wish US ordered, manufactured and donated a ton more to quash this thing
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    It did not so much wear off as that it simply doesn't protect as well against this new strain. It most likely still protects just fine against the alpha variant but that one has now been all but displaced.
    - jimsimmons 5y ago
      Crazy that we can see the pure savagery of evolution right in front of us
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        The rate at which viruses reproduce is what allows you to see this, every biology freshman probably does the e-coli + arsenic experiment, it's a real eye opener as to how slow walking a treatment can actually create a resistant strain.
  - 5y ago
totony 5y ago
Wasn't moderna a bigger dose?
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  Yes, but slightly different dosing interval as well.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Dosing intervals were frequently dictated by vaccine availability and not by the manufacturer mandated schedule of administration.
- c_o_n_v_e_x 5y ago
  Pfizer is 30 micrograms per dose, Moderna is 100 micrograms per dose.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Moderna seems to ve bettee overall (more effextive, effectice against variants, fewer side effects). I ghess time will tell on the safety of mRNA vaccines.
- ta2987 5y ago
  Time already told.
- Steltek 5y ago
  > fewer side effects From my vantage point, Pfizer had far fewer side effects. One acquaintance who had Moderna got walloped so bad on the first shot that they didn't get their second shot. Of course, all anecdotes. I'd love to read some better numbers.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    I haven't known anyone in their 20-30s who got a 2nd Moderna shot and wasn't down for a day.
    - likeabbas 5y ago
      My anecdotal experience with the second dose was that I experienced light headedness almost exactly 24 hours after the shot. But, it went away after two cocktails (I was flying that day)
    - CydeWeys 5y ago
      I was 35 at the time and was completely down for a day after the second shot. My girlfriend got Pfizer and she wasn't as badly affected -- just got a little sleepy.
      - version_five 5y ago
        It's interesting to read these different experiences. I'm in my 40s, my second Pfizer just left me feeling mildly tired, with a bit of pain in the arm. My dad didn't have any real symptoms, and my brothers, in their 30s, said they had more flu like symptoms. I actually had planned to be out of commission based on other peoples reports and was surprised when I was basically fine.
icegreentea2 5y ago
Moderna estimated to have half the risk of break through infection by delta variant. Moderna and Pfizer both have comparable (low) risk of hospitalization and death when infected with delta variant. Primary difference vaccines is dosage (Moderna had a bit over 3x amount of material per shot) and maybe scheduling (Pfizer was scheduled for 21 days between shots, Moderna for 28 - though given how shots were actually administered in reality, this is probably a wash). Study design has many limitations, but is probably reasonably generalizable. As a Canadian with combo Pfizer+Moderna, I am personally curious what my risk profile would look like. I wonder if a similar study on Canadian data could be useful - an intermediate risk profile for the combo shot would sure be persuasive evidence. Edit: Removed ambiguity in second sentence.
- jumelles 5y ago
  > Moderna and Pfizer both have comparable (low) risk of hospitalization and death. This is still probably the most important overall point.
- jaspergilley 5y ago
  Wait, was your combo shot one of each? or two of each? I've been curious to learn more about getting both (already had two Pfizer) but resources on the matter are hard to find
  - hbrav 5y ago
    Some Canadian provinces treated mRNA vaccines as interchangeable. In Ontario a lot of people got a first dose of Pfizer and a second of Moderna. There's currently a study underway in the UK (I forget the name, but it run by the University of Oxford) to assess the efficacy of mixed-dose vaccination.
    - gpm 5y ago
      More than mRNA vaccines as interchangeable, we (Ontario) mostly treated the oxford vaccine as interchangeable with the mRNA vaccines too, until we started giving it to less people.
stefan_ 5y ago
This other study from August 12 found 88% effectiveness against Delta: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891
dfdz 5y ago
Can someone please update the link to the latest version https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v...
josh_today 5y ago
I know many will disagree but with the booster shot set for approval any day now, we need to stop calling something a vaccine when 3 doses within a 12 month period of it are needed
- jyrkesh 5y ago
  In the vernacular, or scientifically? I think most folks around me call their annual flu vaccine a "flu shot", but I still think it qualifies as a vaccine even though we don't think of it of the same severity as your one-time childhood vaccines.
- ianlevesque 5y ago
  I don't see why. HPV vaccine takes three doses several weeks apart. Hepatitis B vaccine needs three doses with a month between the first two, then another 4-5 months later. This is really not new territory.
  - josh_today 5y ago
    And after the 3 doses the patient has immunity against HPV. Bloomberg: “A month after the third shot, 55% of those who got it developed antibody levels likely to provide significant protection.” Only 5% over half were “Likely” plus “significant” which is not definite by a long shot (no pun intended) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-11/third-moderna-shot-boosts-antibody-levels-in-transplant-patients https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-11/third-mod...
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      Are you expecting the results in people with compromised immune systems to generalize to the broader population? If so, why?
      - josh_today 5y ago
        My point was equating a “multi dose defense shot” to a vaccine. After the immunocompromised have had the opportunity to protect themselves, the booster will be made available to all, just like the initial shots earlier this year. Those will be followed by another booster or more next year and so on.
listenallyall 5y ago
Question: remember when the distribution of these vaccines was a logistical impossibility due to requiring minus 100 temperatures and special freezers and all that? And then it somehow got "solved" and it hasn't been mentioned since? Was it really all that easy? Or is it possible that millions of people are getting thawed or warmed shots that, due to not following extreme procedures, have lost their potency?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That was only a problem in developing countries, and dry ice solved it nicely. That said, the vaccination figures from developing countries are still very low, not in the least because the developed world refuses to pay for it. Though there is some movement on this, it should be painfully obvious by now that as long as there is even one country where this is not under control we can pretty much assume that there will be endless re-runs.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    Seems strange that there was any concern whatsoever, if dry ice was a solution. They were talking extremely low temps. Further, we are in the midst of a major trucking shortage... I would have to assume that the small niche of ultra-cold trucking is even more stressed.
- icegreentea2 5y ago
  Shipping and storage requirements were relaxed as manufacturers were able to complete additional studies. For example: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-brief-fda-authorizes-longer-time-refrigerator-storage-thawed-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-brie...
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    it said they "submitted data to the FDA", that is very vague as to whether it was actually further studies or some other type of evidence/data
271828182846 5y ago
My first shot was Biontech and I'm still in for the second one. Would it make sense to take Moderna instead of Biontech?
d4rkp4ttern 5y ago
What is the latest an how J&J compares with Moderna and Pfizer? Is J&J considered less protective than those, against the Delta variant? Any links to studies will be appreciated.
NonContro 5y ago
What would this data look like if all of the people with natural immunity from exposure were excluded? For example, about 33% of the American population was exposed to COVID, according to the CDC [1] If Pfizer is 42% effective, would that effectiveness value drop even further? [1] https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/coronavirus/cdc-estimates-1-in-3-americans-have-been-infected-with-covid-19 https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/coronavirus/c...

113 points by mitchbob 5y ago

muh vaccine!!! shove it up my ass - ohhh yeh, I like that vaccine up my ass - it feels so good.

And Novavax was just found to be 90% effective across a range of variants. Too bad they didn't have a big partner to speed their trials along.

ahurmazda 5y ago
I was really hopeful for Novavax. But recent news about manufacturing woes and US pulling funding is disappointing. The preliminary results looked great. Combined with low rate of side-effects and higher storage temp (2-8 C), it could have been a good 2nd (or 3rd) choice for the developing world. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/us-clinical-trial-results-show-novavax-vaccine-safe-prevents-covid-19 https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/us-clinical-tr...
- giantg2 5y ago
  I would have loved a protein based option. I think there haven't been enough questions around the mRNA vaccine longterm potential impact. There are woefully few studies exploring the potential for autoimmune conditions. I find this especially troubling when using ones own cells to develop the spike protein. Normally the immune system codes off multiple proteins of the cell, but this would be a problem when the other cell proteins are legitimate. Basically, there are still more questions than answers in my mind. I just hope the national countermeasure compensation fund will be able to handle any potential fallout.
  - Exmoor 5y ago
    Keep in mind, every single cold and flu you've ever had has used the same mRNA pathway to duplicate itself. Anyone reading this has had this happen in their body literally billions of times and will have it happen billions more. Is it just the single-protein aspect of it (compared to a full virus) that bothers you?
    - giantg2 5y ago
      It's a little different, right? So J&J uses modified adenovirus which acts more similarly to real life, in that it's using a DNA transcription process (that's where they think some error occur and causes clotting/stroke issues). Although they are also just making a protein that displays on the outside of the cell. A real virus will create copies of itself via a similar method. These copies are inside of the cell and later leave it. So it's mostly a concern that in one way we are targeting a spike protein on out own cell, but normally a virus would be complete and not be displayed as part of the cell wall. That's where I wonder if some people's immune system might code off of other normal proteins in addition to the spike. I would have thought there would at least have been a study about autoimmune antibody levels. I found one about severe covid patients having a higher likelihood of having them, but I couldn't find a study looking at the vaccines. It's pretty frustrating that I'm being downvoted for asking what I think is a legitimate question, one that apparently hasn't been looked into (since I can't find any study and the downvoters haven't provided one either).
ajmurmann 5y ago
I think one of the biggest failings in how we handled COVID is lack of challenge trials. We could have had all the vaccines approved months earlier. I'd have been thrilled to volunteer for a challenge trial and still would to accelerate approval of booster shots or mixes of vaccines. Every day we can get any approval sooner is so many lives saved!

standardUser 5y ago

This does mesh with the data out of Israel showing a reduced efficacy in the Pfizer vaccine against Delta. That data was considered an outlier (there were also some specific criticisms that I have since forgotten), but now perhaps that study will be taken more seriously. Israel's solution was to approve a third shot for high risk individuals. Approvals for third shots should be happening in the US very soon too.

jimsimmons 5y ago
If Pfizer wore off in 6-8 months what does it say about the next year? A big chunk of the population would have lost a sizable chunk of immunity no? Are we really confident that global vaccination would be high at that point? I really wish US ordered, manufactured and donated a ton more to quash this thing
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 5y ago
  It did not so much wear off as that it simply doesn't protect as well against this new strain. It most likely still protects just fine against the alpha variant but that one has now been all but displaced.
  - jimsimmons 5y ago
    Crazy that we can see the pure savagery of evolution right in front of us
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The rate at which viruses reproduce is what allows you to see this, every biology freshman probably does the e-coli + arsenic experiment, it's a real eye opener as to how slow walking a treatment can actually create a resistant strain.
- 5y ago

totony 5y ago

Wasn't moderna a bigger dose?

anonuser123456 5y ago
Yes, but slightly different dosing interval as well.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Dosing intervals were frequently dictated by vaccine availability and not by the manufacturer mandated schedule of administration.
c_o_n_v_e_x 5y ago
Pfizer is 30 micrograms per dose, Moderna is 100 micrograms per dose.

LatteLazy 5y ago

Moderna seems to ve bettee overall (more effextive, effectice against variants, fewer side effects). I ghess time will tell on the safety of mRNA vaccines.

ta2987 5y ago
Time already told.
Steltek 5y ago
> fewer side effects From my vantage point, Pfizer had far fewer side effects. One acquaintance who had Moderna got walloped so bad on the first shot that they didn't get their second shot. Of course, all anecdotes. I'd love to read some better numbers.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  I haven't known anyone in their 20-30s who got a 2nd Moderna shot and wasn't down for a day.
  - likeabbas 5y ago
    My anecdotal experience with the second dose was that I experienced light headedness almost exactly 24 hours after the shot. But, it went away after two cocktails (I was flying that day)
  - CydeWeys 5y ago
    I was 35 at the time and was completely down for a day after the second shot. My girlfriend got Pfizer and she wasn't as badly affected -- just got a little sleepy.
    - version_five 5y ago
      It's interesting to read these different experiences. I'm in my 40s, my second Pfizer just left me feeling mildly tired, with a bit of pain in the arm. My dad didn't have any real symptoms, and my brothers, in their 30s, said they had more flu like symptoms. I actually had planned to be out of commission based on other peoples reports and was surprised when I was basically fine.

icegreentea2 5y ago

Moderna estimated to have half the risk of break through infection by delta variant. Moderna and Pfizer both have comparable (low) risk of hospitalization and death when infected with delta variant. Primary difference vaccines is dosage (Moderna had a bit over 3x amount of material per shot) and maybe scheduling (Pfizer was scheduled for 21 days between shots, Moderna for 28 - though given how shots were actually administered in reality, this is probably a wash). Study design has many limitations, but is probably reasonably generalizable. As a Canadian with combo Pfizer+Moderna, I am personally curious what my risk profile would look like. I wonder if a similar study on Canadian data could be useful - an intermediate risk profile for the combo shot would sure be persuasive evidence. Edit: Removed ambiguity in second sentence.

jumelles 5y ago
> Moderna and Pfizer both have comparable (low) risk of hospitalization and death. This is still probably the most important overall point.
jaspergilley 5y ago
Wait, was your combo shot one of each? or two of each? I've been curious to learn more about getting both (already had two Pfizer) but resources on the matter are hard to find
- hbrav 5y ago
  Some Canadian provinces treated mRNA vaccines as interchangeable. In Ontario a lot of people got a first dose of Pfizer and a second of Moderna. There's currently a study underway in the UK (I forget the name, but it run by the University of Oxford) to assess the efficacy of mixed-dose vaccination.
  - gpm 5y ago
    More than mRNA vaccines as interchangeable, we (Ontario) mostly treated the oxford vaccine as interchangeable with the mRNA vaccines too, until we started giving it to less people.

stefan_ 5y ago

This other study from August 12 found 88% effectiveness against Delta: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

dfdz 5y ago

Can someone please update the link to the latest version https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v...

josh_today 5y ago

I know many will disagree but with the booster shot set for approval any day now, we need to stop calling something a vaccine when 3 doses within a 12 month period of it are needed

jyrkesh 5y ago
In the vernacular, or scientifically? I think most folks around me call their annual flu vaccine a "flu shot", but I still think it qualifies as a vaccine even though we don't think of it of the same severity as your one-time childhood vaccines.
ianlevesque 5y ago
I don't see why. HPV vaccine takes three doses several weeks apart. Hepatitis B vaccine needs three doses with a month between the first two, then another 4-5 months later. This is really not new territory.
- josh_today 5y ago
  And after the 3 doses the patient has immunity against HPV. Bloomberg: “A month after the third shot, 55% of those who got it developed antibody levels likely to provide significant protection.” Only 5% over half were “Likely” plus “significant” which is not definite by a long shot (no pun intended) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-11/third-moderna-shot-boosts-antibody-levels-in-transplant-patients https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-11/third-mod...
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Are you expecting the results in people with compromised immune systems to generalize to the broader population? If so, why?
    - josh_today 5y ago
      My point was equating a “multi dose defense shot” to a vaccine. After the immunocompromised have had the opportunity to protect themselves, the booster will be made available to all, just like the initial shots earlier this year. Those will be followed by another booster or more next year and so on.

listenallyall 5y ago

Question: remember when the distribution of these vaccines was a logistical impossibility due to requiring minus 100 temperatures and special freezers and all that? And then it somehow got "solved" and it hasn't been mentioned since? Was it really all that easy? Or is it possible that millions of people are getting thawed or warmed shots that, due to not following extreme procedures, have lost their potency?

jacquesm 5y ago
That was only a problem in developing countries, and dry ice solved it nicely. That said, the vaccination figures from developing countries are still very low, not in the least because the developed world refuses to pay for it. Though there is some movement on this, it should be painfully obvious by now that as long as there is even one country where this is not under control we can pretty much assume that there will be endless re-runs.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  Seems strange that there was any concern whatsoever, if dry ice was a solution. They were talking extremely low temps. Further, we are in the midst of a major trucking shortage... I would have to assume that the small niche of ultra-cold trucking is even more stressed.
icegreentea2 5y ago
Shipping and storage requirements were relaxed as manufacturers were able to complete additional studies. For example: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-brief-fda-authorizes-longer-time-refrigerator-storage-thawed-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-brie...
- listenallyall 5y ago
  it said they "submitted data to the FDA", that is very vague as to whether it was actually further studies or some other type of evidence/data

271828182846 5y ago

My first shot was Biontech and I'm still in for the second one. Would it make sense to take Moderna instead of Biontech?

d4rkp4ttern 5y ago

What is the latest an how J&J compares with Moderna and Pfizer? Is J&J considered less protective than those, against the Delta variant? Any links to studies will be appreciated.

NonContro 5y ago

What would this data look like if all of the people with natural immunity from exposure were excluded? For example, about 33% of the American population was exposed to COVID, according to the CDC [1] If Pfizer is 42% effective, would that effectiveness value drop even further? [1] https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/coronavirus/cdc-estimates-1-in-3-americans-have-been-infected-with-covid-19 https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/coronavirus/c...