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That whole idea always seemed like a meme. Just work hard, go to college, save your money! For some of us this has worked out. For the large majority of people

That whole idea always seemed like a meme. Just work hard, go to college, save your money! For some of us this has worked out. For the large majority of people in the west, however, this has resulted in modern day slavery.

refurb 5y ago
What’s interesting to me is plenty of immigrants prove it’s still true. And they often start out with even less than the poorest Americans. Sure, there is no guaranteed path to riches. But a comfortable existence free of major wants is more within reach than its ever been.
- felipemnoa 5y ago
  >>What’s interesting to me is plenty of immigrants prove it’s still true. I've witnessed it. I know a couple of people who's net worth is more than a million dollars by simply working all the time, saving their money and buying their three family home. The more savvy ones even own more than one. And these are people that knew no English, had an elementary education, worked at jobs that lots of people would not work at. I guess the point is that you can make it, but you have to be willing to work for it.
  - falcor84 5y ago
    >have to be willing to work for it. And typically, you also have to be willing to live at a lower quality of life and save, which most people born in the west aren't.
    - bsenftner 5y ago
      Yep, but that "lower quality of life" can be surprisingly good. My father had a friend that was an El Salvadoran immigrant, as a teen in the 80's this guy was an illegal farm worker in California. He got his green card, then citizenship, and through all this (teen to adult, to family man with 5 kids) he lived in a trailer park outside Palm Springs, CA. His wealth building method was super basic: he purchased shipping pallets and re-used to wood to create picture frames and bird houses his kids painted in various themes. These items were then sold in the dozens of little knick-knack shops around Palm Springs / Coachella Valley. Little by little he purchased the entire trailer park his family lived, and when my dad met him his family owned a dozen trailer parks near Palm Springs and their 3rd generation has kids at Ivy League schools. They still live in the same trailer park lot, but it is probably nicer than many walled communities, from the actual friendly community aspect this family cultivates.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    I have heard about the immigrant that came here with nothing, and made it big. I have never met one though. I sometimes think it's another American folk tale. I'm not talking 30-40 years ago. I'm talking big money, not graduating from a professional school money--bacically med school. It seems in the past just hard work, and maybe different cultural values, could be enough to get ahead here? (I said nothing racist, so please no sanctimonious lashing.)
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Proving it is possible does not mean it is true. Going from the standard to an extreme outlier does not bode well for the masses.
    - chasd00 5y ago
      well it's called the "American Dream" not the "American Entitlement". Dreams are dreams, you can make them come true sometimes and other times it doesn't happen. I think the "American Dream" is more about the possibility and not implying it's inevitable.
- falcor84 5y ago
  I wonder if there's some model that could explain it using static friction. If you and everyone around you is and has been at the same socio-economic situation for a long while, it would take something big to make you move, but if you have just immigrated, then obviously there's no static friction and you don't have any particular baseline anymore, so you have a higher likelihood of just keeping in motion, due to the lower dynamic friction.
flerchin 5y ago
Slavery is a completely different situation than the ills of late-stage capitalism.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Is it? From my vantage point we are just serfs on the plantation.
  - flerchin 5y ago
    Chattel slavery, where you were bound, by law, to your owner, under penalty of death. vs. My student loan payments are too high, I am having a hard time building my net worth. vs. Serfs is a different thing, not slaves, but still vastly worse than 21st century ills.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      You said chattel, they didn't.
    - rhizome 5y ago
      Chattel slavery was relatively rare, and my understanding is that in most systems of slavery the slave was either working off a debt or could buy themselves out of bondage. Like you might with a student loan.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Well it works better than Just work hard, go to college, don't save your money! No matter how much you dislike the system you do have to live in it. Choices you make an an individual might well be in conflict with your views on the aggregate.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Why are college loans some of the only kind that can be signed for by your parents, yet not dischargeable via bankruptcy?
  - chasd00 5y ago
    in the US college loans are backed by the federal government so there's minimal risk to the lender, that's why the interest rate is low. Remove the federal guarantee and they can be dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, then the interest rates go sky high (like credit card rate high) because now all the risk of the loan is being taken on by the lender with no federal backstop.
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Or maybe they, you know, hand out loans based on ability to pay back like any other loan.
  - NonEUCitizen 5y ago
    https://www.tateesq.com/learn/student-loan-bankruptcy-law-history https://www.tateesq.com/learn/student-loan-bankruptcy-law-hi...
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  > Well it works better than Just work hard, go to college, don't save your money! This is stupid. The alternative is not going to increasingly overpriced and under valued college.
chrisaycock 5y ago
> modern day slavery Slavery is a system that involves kidnap, torture, rape, and murder. There is nothing about your life experiences that remotely compares.
- bbrree66 5y ago
  It's easier for the whiners to call it slavery and act like they don't have the ability to make decisions to change their situation.
- bsenftner 5y ago
  Modern day slavery is a system of economic bondage: one cannot change their job, improve their car (if they have one at all), live somewhere better, or other essential items in their lives because they can't afford the economic risk: one misstep and they have no backup, cascading poverty.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Slavery is “you can’t improve your car”? Did I get that right?
  - qzw 5y ago
    Modern day slavery is human trafficking, forced prison labor, re-education camps… you know, actual slavery. Having no social security net is a real problem, but let’s not be hyperbolic.
  - kiba 5y ago
    It's not slavery, but it's a certain amount of Unfree labor. Unfree labor is a more apt term to describe what you are talking about since it includes: "destitution, detention, violence including death, compulsion,[1] or other forms of extreme hardship to either themselves or members of their families."[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour
- goodpoint 5y ago
  This is not true. "The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude." Hence the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
bbrree66 5y ago
Maybe he was missing a couple things, but it's not far off. Go to college for a major that has high economic value. Continue building your skills after college. Live below your means. I'd like to see data on people who do all of those things and how they end up.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  How much of this do they teach in the average public school?

refurb 5y ago

What’s interesting to me is plenty of immigrants prove it’s still true. And they often start out with even less than the poorest Americans. Sure, there is no guaranteed path to riches. But a comfortable existence free of major wants is more within reach than its ever been.

felipemnoa 5y ago
>>What’s interesting to me is plenty of immigrants prove it’s still true. I've witnessed it. I know a couple of people who's net worth is more than a million dollars by simply working all the time, saving their money and buying their three family home. The more savvy ones even own more than one. And these are people that knew no English, had an elementary education, worked at jobs that lots of people would not work at. I guess the point is that you can make it, but you have to be willing to work for it.
- falcor84 5y ago
  >have to be willing to work for it. And typically, you also have to be willing to live at a lower quality of life and save, which most people born in the west aren't.
  - bsenftner 5y ago
    Yep, but that "lower quality of life" can be surprisingly good. My father had a friend that was an El Salvadoran immigrant, as a teen in the 80's this guy was an illegal farm worker in California. He got his green card, then citizenship, and through all this (teen to adult, to family man with 5 kids) he lived in a trailer park outside Palm Springs, CA. His wealth building method was super basic: he purchased shipping pallets and re-used to wood to create picture frames and bird houses his kids painted in various themes. These items were then sold in the dozens of little knick-knack shops around Palm Springs / Coachella Valley. Little by little he purchased the entire trailer park his family lived, and when my dad met him his family owned a dozen trailer parks near Palm Springs and their 3rd generation has kids at Ivy League schools. They still live in the same trailer park lot, but it is probably nicer than many walled communities, from the actual friendly community aspect this family cultivates.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  I have heard about the immigrant that came here with nothing, and made it big. I have never met one though. I sometimes think it's another American folk tale. I'm not talking 30-40 years ago. I'm talking big money, not graduating from a professional school money--bacically med school. It seems in the past just hard work, and maybe different cultural values, could be enough to get ahead here? (I said nothing racist, so please no sanctimonious lashing.)
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Proving it is possible does not mean it is true. Going from the standard to an extreme outlier does not bode well for the masses.
  - chasd00 5y ago
    well it's called the "American Dream" not the "American Entitlement". Dreams are dreams, you can make them come true sometimes and other times it doesn't happen. I think the "American Dream" is more about the possibility and not implying it's inevitable.
falcor84 5y ago
I wonder if there's some model that could explain it using static friction. If you and everyone around you is and has been at the same socio-economic situation for a long while, it would take something big to make you move, but if you have just immigrated, then obviously there's no static friction and you don't have any particular baseline anymore, so you have a higher likelihood of just keeping in motion, due to the lower dynamic friction.

flerchin 5y ago

Slavery is a completely different situation than the ills of late-stage capitalism.

imwillofficial 5y ago
Is it? From my vantage point we are just serfs on the plantation.
- flerchin 5y ago
  Chattel slavery, where you were bound, by law, to your owner, under penalty of death. vs. My student loan payments are too high, I am having a hard time building my net worth. vs. Serfs is a different thing, not slaves, but still vastly worse than 21st century ills.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    You said chattel, they didn't.
  - rhizome 5y ago
    Chattel slavery was relatively rare, and my understanding is that in most systems of slavery the slave was either working off a debt or could buy themselves out of bondage. Like you might with a student loan.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

Well it works better than Just work hard, go to college, don't save your money! No matter how much you dislike the system you do have to live in it. Choices you make an an individual might well be in conflict with your views on the aggregate.

imwillofficial 5y ago
Why are college loans some of the only kind that can be signed for by your parents, yet not dischargeable via bankruptcy?
- chasd00 5y ago
  in the US college loans are backed by the federal government so there's minimal risk to the lender, that's why the interest rate is low. Remove the federal guarantee and they can be dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, then the interest rates go sky high (like credit card rate high) because now all the risk of the loan is being taken on by the lender with no federal backstop.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Or maybe they, you know, hand out loans based on ability to pay back like any other loan.
- NonEUCitizen 5y ago
  https://www.tateesq.com/learn/student-loan-bankruptcy-law-history https://www.tateesq.com/learn/student-loan-bankruptcy-law-hi...
imwillofficial 5y ago
> Well it works better than Just work hard, go to college, don't save your money! This is stupid. The alternative is not going to increasingly overpriced and under valued college.

chrisaycock 5y ago

> modern day slavery Slavery is a system that involves kidnap, torture, rape, and murder. There is nothing about your life experiences that remotely compares.

bbrree66 5y ago
It's easier for the whiners to call it slavery and act like they don't have the ability to make decisions to change their situation.
bsenftner 5y ago
Modern day slavery is a system of economic bondage: one cannot change their job, improve their car (if they have one at all), live somewhere better, or other essential items in their lives because they can't afford the economic risk: one misstep and they have no backup, cascading poverty.
- refurb 5y ago
  Slavery is “you can’t improve your car”? Did I get that right?
- qzw 5y ago
  Modern day slavery is human trafficking, forced prison labor, re-education camps… you know, actual slavery. Having no social security net is a real problem, but let’s not be hyperbolic.
- kiba 5y ago
  It's not slavery, but it's a certain amount of Unfree labor. Unfree labor is a more apt term to describe what you are talking about since it includes: "destitution, detention, violence including death, compulsion,[1] or other forms of extreme hardship to either themselves or members of their families."[1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour
goodpoint 5y ago
This is not true. "The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude." Hence the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

bbrree66 5y ago

Maybe he was missing a couple things, but it's not far off. Go to college for a major that has high economic value. Continue building your skills after college. Live below your means. I'd like to see data on people who do all of those things and how they end up.

imwillofficial 5y ago
How much of this do they teach in the average public school?